Massive Oil Release
 

This is quite day killer.

DC, 25 degrees or so, I start the car to warm it up. No issues, though in retrospect, it was putting out too much white exhaust. I didn't notice; I thought it was just the weather.

I put it in gear, pull out of the parking space and the engine stutters badly. I pull over ASAP, and turn it off. The car moved no more than fifty feet. I wait a few seconds, start it, hear the ticking, and shut it down just as quickly.

The pictures show it all:

http://i.imgur.com/u49ghZE.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/TY7Qnnl.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/gadNEE6.jpg

The first two may not show it that well, but there is anti-freeze there as well.

The last one, if you can see it, is where the oil is dripping from.

The following was done a few weeks ago:

Valve cover gasket set
Valve cover seal washers
Intake manifold cover
Intake manifold casket/gasket (sic)
Serpentine belts
Master cylinder
Brake booster
Low control arms

It's at less than 65K miles, does anyone have any idea what the hell happened?

It will get towed to a shop on Monday, Euro Imports in Alexandria, VA.

There has been no more oil than what you see there. Any thoughts/ideas would be greatly appreciated!!

AND, if anyone knows why the imgur images aren't showing up, I'll fix that.

Thanks all, as always.

Frozen up CCV system. Depending on what pops, it can shoot oil into the intake (your smoke) or pop the valve cover gaskets (the leak) or both. Expect puddles of oil in the intake.

It is usually not catastrophic unless you continue driving low on oil or the engine hydrolocks and breaks something.

I was just going to add...frozen CCV based on my experience with mine this year. Mine didn't get warm until it was close to home (I have a short drive to/from work) when it blew its guts. I can't see any pics, but just based on what you're saying my guess is CCV. You can see my thread "Time for some work..." for all the things I did. You can also see if my pics of the intake match yours.

At only 65K I don't know if I'd do all the work I did. Just replacing the CCV and valve cover gaskets is a really simple process for a DIYer. Seriously, my work was a MAJOR undertaking and a massive PITA. Just the CCV and VCG are super easy. If you need pointers let me know, I did the CCV twice. :(

Gentlemen, thanks for your ideas.

Thanks, David. What *actually* happens when this happens? A gear breaks, a seal lets go? Literally, I got fifty feet and that was that. I did start it again, but that was about a second or two.

Nathan, I read through that whole thread, thank you for posting, and thank the rest of you for commenting. Is this something that I could consider doing myself? Well, barring the weather, as I would be outside.

That is usually a stupid question on my part, but I always consider it.

I thought the ccv was only a problem in the 3.0i`s?

I'm going to hazard a guess that it, is not. :dunno:

I though CCV was a problem with N62 engines and not the M62? Correct me if a I am wrong.

On the N62 there was a cold winter upgrade to the valve cover, CCV and tubing. Not sure on the M62 though. I did the whole upgrade on mine. Replacing a valve cover wasn't cheap....

CCV freezing up was/is definitely a problem on the M62. The 4.4 and 4.6 share the same CCV parts.

For the M62, there is a heater kit that wraps around two of the CCV hoses. My local dealer swore it didn't exist, but ECS Tuning sold it, and the part number does really exist.

Look on this thread for some of the service bulletins and parts.
http://www.xoutpost.com/bmw-sav-foru...under-cpo.html

ECS Tuning still has the heated hose wrap kit - $377 right now.
https://www.ecstuning.com/b-genuine-...r/11610390846/

ECS BMW part only shows application for n62 4.4l and 4.8is. I wonder why it was not called out for m62 an m60 engines?

I don't know. I tried to put the number into realoem before I posted hoping to get some fitment info and it doesn't show anything. As I said, I hammered the local part guy to get this part for me and he keep coming back saying there is nothing for the M62. There is also a "cold weather" variant for the CCV parts for 3.0L, but not for the M62. The M62 gets the added heated wrap.

That part number is listed in the M62 service bulletin for this problem, and I have installed it on my 2001 4.4 - 2 winters ago now - after my own freeze up. The service bulletin (SIB 110104) for M62 is posted on the other thread I linked to. The first page lists it applying to M62 through 9/2003 build date and the last page gives the part number for the heated kit.

It would make sense because on my m62 540it wagon the CCV is located on the front of the engine behind the lower timing cover/ internally in the engine. My X4.6is has it located at the back of the engine externally located. Good yo know. The n62 carries a completely different type of CCV THAN THE M62. Even the later model N62 engines had insulation around the pipe of the CVV and the unit itself.

Thanks for the link, David. Informative thread. Quick synopsis of the CCV issue:

http://www.xoutpost.com/bmw-sav-foru...tml#post793790

Besides the ECS kit, are there upgrades that would be preventative?

If I have to replace the valve cover gasket set again....

@David - Thank you for pointing out that kit! I will probably end up getting that next winter (since this one seems to be above freezing from here on out). I was able to find that for Range Rovers, just not BMW. That will allow me to keep my X5 instead of getting rid of it since I don't want to replace the CCV every year!

I _literally_ spit out my coffee on that one. :dunno:

If you live in colder climates like me this is common on these junk E53's. Happens on both 6 and all V8. The kits are a joke and only work the first year. The white milky stuff freezes in your oil if you don't drive more than a half hour each day to work to burn it off, it gets stuck in the PCV valve and oil tubes. This happens around 18 degrees and lower. BMW well knows of the design flaw and ignores it.

The pressure in the engine sucks the engine oil in the cylinders and makes the engine smoke and or causes hydraulic lock and ruins the engine by bending the pistons rods or blows a head gaskets or both.

On my 4.4 it forced the oil out the valve cover fill cap and it never smoked. It did blow my valve covers and rear main seal $2K

The only way I found to help avoid this is 1. don't own a X5 2. Don't start the car under 18 degrees 3. definitely use Marvels Mystery Oil in your oil.

This only happens if you don't drive far each day and the temps get below 18 degrees....6cyl-8cyl, new CCV parts ,it doesn't matter, will happen.

We aim to please. :cool:

Stan Lee makes oil?

And why would it be a mystery...in the Age, of the Spectrophotometer!

Sounds fishy and not very Marvelous to me.

Reading about all of this muck, e.g.:

http://www.xoutpost.com/bmw-sav-foru...-problems.html

and:

http://www.xoutpost.com/bmw-sav-foru...tml#post793790

it seems I really can't complain, the car is almost 14 years old, and 65K miles, so I can't really complain about one CCV failure.

I don't even mind spending money on the car. I'm just irritated that it happened six weeks after being in the shop anyway.

D'oh!

Presuming that's not coolant.....that's alot of moisture in your oil.


What's your driving frequency/style ?

It's good to induce some heat into the car now and then to burn off any moisture.

Would it help to install an engine heater (not sure about the proper name), basically a fan heater that sits inside the engine bay keeping the engine and lubes lukewarm. It's very common here in Scandinavia, especially the cupe heaters (same fan but inside the car).

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I think it would help. I thought about a pan heater, but then went with the CCV hose heater kit for the convenience.

Called up a mechanic friend and asked him about this. The best thing to install in the x5 is the block heater (example: Defa Warm Up), basically is connects to the coolant hose and bottom of engine block....keeping the coolant warm. It also comes with a battery charger and cupe heater with the optional remote/app control. In Norway temperatures are at -20C now and with this system installed you'd have no issues.

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Block Heaters were def. discussed back when the majority of E53 was in their 1st gen production..Those parts of not available in NA, nor do I believe it was a easy import

That's my only problem here too. I saw that Europe had several good options for block heaters, or the secondary remote start heaters. But the US doesn't get any of those and there are parts of the US that get very cold. Having access to those would be very nice, but I guess BMW's answer for us is to have a heated garage.

That's a shame really. I'm having this kit installed asap, just waiting now for the final price.

I'm getting worried as my car is also showing worrying signs during freezing weathers.

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Found you can buy the Defa heater in eBay Canada. And the Laval (Montreal) BMW dealer installs them. Maybe worth a road trip.

Go for it, it's a good investment if you're not thinking of selling the car....and live in a cold place.

Keep in mind that this system need a constant power source and not intermittent. In Norway you can plug the car in most car parks/garages but not all provide constant power....this still burn the heaters. Fyi

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David, you put the heating kit on. Given that it's been nearly 14 years and 65K, should I sweat (get it, "sweat"?) it?

I'm certainly not adverse to the extra $355, but would you call that a "fix" or a "partial alleviation"? Is the pan heater a better solution, given that he'll be down there anyway? If so, do you have a link to one?

Thanks for all of your help, everyone!

Why don't we get all the cool stuff here?! The DEFA would work, but in less than 1 month I'll have a nice comfy garage so I won't need it at home. At work, we don't have plugs to keep it warm so it wouldn't be as helpful there. I'd REALLY like to get a Webasto, but that doesn't look like it's going to happen either.

I think for me, the best option may be the heater blanket that David.X5 has on his.

@Rush - The heating blanket is BMW's solution to the issue and also for Range Rovers with the M62. It would also be very easy to install and doesn't require the removal of the CCV system to do this. There should be zero labor charge to install this if the CCV is already being replaced.

Thanks, Nathan!

It should get towed tomorrow. It seems that firing it up and just gunning it until I get it to the shop is a bad idea.

I'll see what he says and I'll order it.

This one issue was a significant enough of a concern that I decided to get rid of my E53 for an E70. To my knowledge the E70 is not afflicted by this particular issue.

Did I miss a cold weather SIB for the M62?

I looked at Keeping You Safe | Safercar | National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) to find any that apply, but didn't.

I thought someone mentioned one earlier, but I may be mistaken.

@Rush - Try this. It appears to have the BMW pages attached here. SIB 110104 - http://www.xoutpost.com/bmw-sav-foru...under-cpo.html

I got lost in the world of searches.

D'oh!

Thank you.

The Escapees
 

Taking another tack here, as I'm learning a lot about this issue, and I'm certain that the indy will know all about it, if we assume ALL of the CCV parts have to be replaced:

RealOEM.com - Online BMW Parts Catalog

that's $282.51. Lovely.

And assuming that the six-week-old valve cover gasket set, and the six-week old valve cover seal washers need to be replaced, does anyone have a ballpark idea on that cost, in Alexandria, VA? Not at the dealer, of course.

I'd like to take a picture, and I should have done it in the daylight, to see where the earl came from. For now, the red box shows the only place, underneath, that oil dripped from, near the front right wheel.

http://i.imgur.com/GogHOsx.png

Low mileage for the year.

Assume if you are the original owner, you do not drive very far to and from work?

I would monitor the engine temperature to see if the thermostat is soft AND make sure you "Manage" the yellow Mayo in the engine.

From the looks of your picture, your engine oil is in BAD shape. A cold running engine that is not driven long enough to properly warm up the oil can cause oil to be contaminated in as little as 1000-1500 miles in the Winter months.

Management is actually pretty easy. It involves a few times a week popping the hood in the morning and checking the underside of the oil fill cap and also pulling the dipstick and check the engine oil color. The engine oil should never be BLACK if the crankcase is getting warm enough. If there is yellow Mayo under the oil fill cap, make sure the engine is running at the problem temperature. Typically 96C-105C depending on the configuration of this engine. I do not know it as well as the N62 in the E70 which runs TOO hot in my opinion and it typically has an operating temperature of around 105-110C.

Management also means pulling the oil fill cap after coming home with a very warm engine and removing the oil fill cap and letting the crankcase vent openly overnight while the engine cools. The only trick is not forgetting to reinstall the oil fill cap. Sometimes I suggest putting the oil fill cap in a plastic sandwich bag, dropping the drivers window about 1/2" and then rolling the bag end up in the window with the bag on the outside so it is starting you in the face when you go to get into the car.

Good luck, hopefully the repair is not bad, hopefully no cracked valve cover(s) or other damage, but I would like to see what the oil looks like in the engine an what the upper valvetrain looks like if the valve covers need to be removed.

My guess is this is a big time Mayo motor?

It's a PITA, messy job. When mine went (a 15F day), it was about $500. Mostly labor to clean everything. Intake has to come off. Only part the Indy replaced at that price was the actual CCV. I later replaced every other part of the system myself and then put the heated wrap gizmo.

I guess I should add that I did not loose anything that looked like coolant. Definitely worries me a little that one of your head gaskets let go.

@jfoj

Thanks for the tips. To be honest, I have no idea. It survived three Buffalo winters without issue, and while it was in a garage at night, MANY (most?) days it spent 10+ hours sitting outside in a parking lot after a 10 minute drive. Long before I knew anything about this issue.

Maybe it has sloooowly built up over time. I'm going to check the oil cap tonight.

The engine oil you see is no more than 6-8 weeks old, and that oil certainly isn't anywhere near black. If you look at the center of the red box, and look also to the right of the tire in the picture, that is is oil. It seems, to my virtually ignorant eye, to have the normal darkish caramel colour of Mobil 1. Directly below where it has dripped looks black because of light reflection in the photo. There can't be more than 100 miles on the car since it was changed. However, each time it was driven, the engine was plenty warm. Even if the thermo is soft. How would I check that?

Thanks, David.

I'll let you guys know the verdict before I get it repaired.

Pleasedon'tbesomethingcatastrophic, pleasedon'tbesomethingcatastrophic...

The garage saved you all that time. If you said oil and antifreeze leaked you may have blown the head gasket and most likely another oil gasket.

Thank you, Rockit. It certainly is frustrating that an item with such a simple fix can do so much damage to your car.

I suppose if you are getting a new car every few years these things aren't likely going to matter, but honestly, after spending nearly 10 years here, I can't fathom not being on a board like this.

Did you pop the hood and see where the leak is actually originating?

No, there wasn't enough light.

I'll try tomorrow and bring a flashlight as well as my camera.

~Some~ pictures
 

Welp, underside pictures aren't quite in the cards yet, but I got these of the oil cap:

http://i.imgur.com/PLalmefl.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/K93HYLKl.jpg

and the dipstick:

http://i.imgur.com/dqkXKqTl.jpg

That is the so-called mayo, I assume. Is that a lot?

and a bit inside:

http://i.imgur.com/t1G9iD5l.jpg

Short of crawling under the car to get pictures (which I couldn't right then) I could not find any evidence of an oil or coolant leak from above. Assuming in the most generic of ways that the valve covers are in the place where valve covers should be, there is no leak there. I ran my hands along the gaskets and found no fresh oil.

As mentioned before, the following was done 6-8 weeks ago:

Valve cover gasket set
Valve cover seal washers
Intake manifold cover
Intake manifold casket/gasket (sic)
Serpentine belts
Master cylinder
Brake booster
Low control arms

Are there any of these things that would have involved the CCV, and if so, what/how? Or, if there is a schematic? I didn't figure it out on Realoem.

Any thoughts?

Thank you again, as always.

Paraphrase--it's junk, it costs me a ton of money, there's no fix and BMW could care less so I bought two

I bought 2 before I found out they where JUNK :) before they broke once a week.

I've owned many 5's and 7's and was very happy...this was the first and last BMW X5 I would ever buy. They are major JUNK machines and the owners are masochists. If I didn't own 2 I would not know what POS they where :)

Hard to tell from the latest pictures.

If there is mayo or milkshake in the motor, then this may not be a frozen CCV, but a blow headgasket or some other major engine failure.

Usually mayo just builds up on the underside of the oil fill cap and valve cover and can and will get caught and frozen in the CCV and hoses, but rarely mixes in the oil.

BTW, what is the oil level as indicated on the dipstick? With a much oil that came out, you should probably not have oil or what ever on the dipstick.

Did you check the coolant level as well?

Easy diagnostics for any Indy BMW shop. Try Gary @Martin Motorsports over on Eisenhower AVE. Great guy good shop. BMW gear head who owns more than one of these.

Don't jump off the bridge yet. Let someone who is familiar with BMW V8 take a look and see what is actually going on.

That much of anything on the ground is not good. Unless you are going to DIY just have it towed to a well recommended independent shop that specializes in BMWs for an estimate. Don't start it for any reason.

Pictures can be misleading but it appears there is coolant in the oil. Mayo tends to be more solidified in nature. While PCV as the cause is a good guess, there are several other possibilities. The good thing is that you shut it off right away.

The head gaskets are fine and I'll check the coolant, but I thought I read on another thread here that the engine has to be warm to check the actual oil level?

Looking at it in retrospect, it lost maybe a quart, all at once. The car isn't dripping.

I probably shouldn't run it for twenty minutes just for that....

You can check the oil cold, it may be a bit low, but again, hard to tell how much oil made it out of the engine and how much is left.

As warm as it is now, I might be inclined to start the engine, check for leaks and if no leaks, let it warm up a bit.

But the oil had to have come from somewhere, I do not know the V8 CCV system, but for oil to have come out something would have had to froze and split or cracked unless there was pressure built up and it sprayed out the top of the dipstick tube or blew out a valve cover gasket.

Do you have an idea where is came from?

The car absolutely will not be started again. I don't know much, but I'm pretty certain that most of what I do know is wrong.

But I do know that right now electricity + starter = epic failure.

I need to crawl under and look. Barring my own idiocy (a possibility) absolutely nothing that I can see from the top, in well-lit conditions, sprayed anything, anywhere. I couldn't see anything like that, and I couldn't find anything like that reaching down and feeling around.

Remove the plastic pipe that connects the air flow meter to the throttle body. It is two hose clamps and two small hoses. You can even leave the hoses attached and just move it slightly to the side.

Then, Push the throttle body flapper open with your finger or a screwdriver and look inside the intake with a flashlight.
Do you see puddles of oil? All dry? Spike (The evil gremlin)?

Basically, I want to loosen number 4, push it aside, and look into where I have the big red arrow?

http://i.imgur.com/kA4yQFu.jpg

Does Spike bite? If so, I will be sure to use a screwdriver to look inside.

Thanks, David.

Thanks BCR.

While I would LOVE to do it myself, I would be relegated to handing someone else tools and and watching/learning intently.

I loved working on my '74 2002 with the ol' Bentley manual, but even then, If I could see gears or thingys inside the engine, that was beyond my ability. I can use tools, I just don't have the experience unless there was a step by step video. If something didn't match the video, I don't have the expertise and judgment to be confident.

Oh BOY would the first key turn after that experience be terrifying. :yikes:

Yes, and the second hose clamp is between #3 and #6 in your picture. Keep the screwdriver nearby to stab spike if he gets frisky.

It's a straight line to peer into the intake on the 4.4 once you have the flap pushed up. Looks like it's not so straight on the 4.6. Good luck.

Bmw does not recommend the engine being warm when checking or topping up the oil. Both BMW Dubai and Gothenburg told me this. Also, is it possible that the engine had too much oil in it before it leaked?

As for the milky stuff in the oil, sure it could come from the ccv pipes/hoses but that's just an indicator to a faulty headgasket. I've had my fair share of overheating or milky bmw engines over the years and changing the ccv, rocker gaskets, hoses and even manifolds might make it a bit better but it will not last.

If you do decide to start the car eventually, check the exhaust for white or bluish smoke, uneven idle, engine temperature, coolant level and rough acceleration. These are the prime indicators for a blown head gasket.



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How do you know the head gaskets are fine?

Since you aren't going to do the work yourself I don't see any reason to try to troubleshoot the cause. As mentioned, get a diagnosis and estimate and bring it back here for input if you are concerned it may not be accurate.

Whatever you do DON'T start it. Checking the oil won't tell you anything. You could have lost two quarts of oil and gained two quarts of coolant.

[QUOTE=Awntchi;1070044]Bmw does not recommend the engine being warm when checking or topping up the oil. Both BMW Dubai and Gothenburg told me this. Also, is it possible that the engine had too much oil in it before it leaked?

As for the milky stuff in the oil, sure it could come from the ccv pipes/hoses but that's just an indicator to a faulty headgasket. I've had my fair share of overheating or milky bmw engines over the years and changing the ccv, rocker gaskets, hoses and even manifolds might make it a bit better but it will not last.

If you do decide to start the car eventually, check the exhaust for white or bluish smoke, uneven idle, engine temperature, coolant level and rough acceleration. These are the prime indicators for a blown head gasket.


Checking oil level
Approximate capacity is 8.2 US quarts/ 7.8 liters.
Oil consumption depends on driving style and operating conditions.

1. With the engine at operating temper- ature, i.e. after at least 6 miles/10 km of continuous driving, park the vehi- cle in a horizontal position
We recommend that you mix the
stick out and wipe it off with a clean lint-free cloth, paper towel, or similar material
2. Switch off the engine
3. After approx. 5 minutes, pull the dip-
4. Slide the dipstick carefully all the way into the dipstick tube and pull it out again.
The oil level should be in between the two marks on the dipstick
5. Slide the dipstick all the way into the dipstick tube again.

This is a direct pull from the X5 BMW manual.

[QUOTE=bcredliner;1070071]Yes i read this just when I bought my X and followed it when checking the oil. Until I took it to the dealer (Dubai) for a top up...its for free there. The technician told me to have a coffee as the car needs to be cool before checking the level and topping up. Same thing in Sweden minus the free part....they thought I was making a run for it and came after me telling me I have to pay haha

Nonetheless, I belive the issue in this thread is linked to a bad head gasket with the possibility of over filling with oil. My friend made this mistake with his 4.8is and the car basically threw up the excess oil, damaging the gaskets...resulting in the coolant entering places it shouldn't.

[QUOTE=Awntchi;1070097]FYI- The BMW procedure is not exclusive to BMW. That is the standard operating procedure for all vehicles so that the engine is not overfilled. I suggest you don't return to those dealerships.

^Well thank god I never had an issue with the car on that department...only a coolant leak many years ago.

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[QUOTE=bcredliner;1070103]BC is correct. Confirmed this with my pops Toyota manual.

The dealerships that add oil cold, are the ones that later end up replacing engines.

As a little perspective on the volumetric expansion... oil(general properties) measured at 7.8L @ 15°C will expand to 8.3L @ 100°C.

This is only a 6% increase, not massive.

Correct, yet think about it like this. Any mechanic or DIY enthusiast, is not going to stand there and measure out 7.8L. I know I won't. And I know my mechanic did not.

It goes down like this.

Mechanic adds oil. Checks dipstick. Adds oil. BMW HiPo engines are recommended to be filled to the top line on the dipstick. Mechanic does this, and send you on your way home.

You get home, and decide to check oil. Guess what, you are way past the high line. You go back to said mechanic, and get a second free oil change, and something else for time wasted.

I speak from experience. This mechanic was arguing with me that oil can be added and level checked when cold. Dick.

The X is the only car that I've taken to the dealer as i bought it almost brand new (1 year old) and had warranty, in addition to lack of experience with the oil consuming engine.

All my other bmw:s never consumed oil...at least not enough up bring up a warning on the dash. So i changed oil myself, making sure engine is somewhat warm when emptying the oil but when its time to fill up again the engine is cold....so i fill up with 90% of recommended amount, start engine for a few minutes then check the level and top up as needed. Never had an issue this way.

I've now given up on the dealer for obvious reasons, this forum provides more knowledge and support thanks to people like You! At least now I have more argue power should the indy attempt to take me for a ride!

Sorry for diluting this thread.

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