Then I saw another 4.6is
 

No affiliation what so ever with this rig but knowing the rarity..
http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/ctd/5476408368.html
Salvaged title however.

That's an e39

what was the point of this thread?

Sorry, I copied the wrong post...
Wait one...http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/cto/5466330707.html

Salvage title. That's a big no no:)

However there is a silver over black 4.8is in Portland right now for under 10k. Just over 100k and a clean title.

That's a lot to ask for a salvage title e53... even if it is a 4.6L with that trim. Wondering where/how bad it was hit to earn the title. Can't tell from the shots... but looks like they are halogen headlights? So maybe it was hit hard in the front?

Okay so I am going to go out on a limb and say this for that vehicle. If the vehicle checks out that drives well, body panels line up then this would not be a bad vehicle for someone who is planning to keep a vehicle like this and run it into high mileage kingdom. It would have to be checked out top make sense but doesn't look bad from the shots. I would like to know what earned it a salvage titile. If it was a flood vehicle then I would pass. Salvage titled vehicles in my opinion are only good for consumers who want their dream car and plan to hold onto it for a long time. Others will not see the value in it. If its been put back together well then most people in the general public cannot make it out as a salvage vehicle.

Probably was in a huge front end smash and put back together with frankenstein parts. The headlights are not correct nor are the grilles for that 4.6.

Looks like a front and rear impact vehicle, note the funky tape off prior to re-spray (behind the rear wheel).

I think it had rear damage. The rear bumper ALL painted.

It's probably a flip. There are a lot of kids around here that buy them wrecked, fix them as cheap as possible (including copious amounts of filler), and try to get near market value. It's almost like a plague.

:iagree:

Confirmed by seller, front and rear damage.

But then I saw this one:

★2003 BMW X5 4.6is ●NAVIGATION ●LOW 97k MILES

How the hell does an "Auto Broker" know if a 13yr old vehicle (with a rebuilt title) has ever had pets or been smoked in?

If he knows it's never been smoked in, he might know where the engine cover is.

Ads like these prey on the ignorant!

^I'm more interested in how he expects to get $10,000 for it. It's decent as a clean title... horrible as a salvage one.

:rofl:

this thread is hilarious. i would stay away for any of these vehicles. too much shady business going on with salvage titles. i'd rather pay a little extra up front for a clean vehicle and not run into any surprises down the road.

Okay so why was the instrument cluster changed out for a normal one vs the IS cluster? Things that make you say Hmmmmm

Good eye Jay, I missed that!

I wonder how long before we see the purchaser on here posting that BMWs are HUGE POSes.

Why all the salvage title postings with extreme prices? These go for 10k (or a lil more(sometimes)) in my area not being totaled at one point in its life. Are we poking fun? Or do you think these are good deals?

How did the seller manage to get it posted on CL without VIN disclosure?

I would think these salvage/rebuilt sellers buy a few wrecked/theft recovery/flood damaged E53s, then build a "Frankentruck".

Anyone want to take a stab at what the hell is written all over the air box???? I can only imagine!! Scary

I agree. Salvage title is not a death sentence, assuming you purchase the car well under the market value for a clean title

More pics on their dealership website.

2003 Bmw X5 4.6is AWD 4dr SUV In Lynnwood WA - Western Auto Brokers

They're right up the street from my work...

ETA: What's the dot in the odometer picture? On the trip odometer right under where it says "miles"?

ETA2: I also just noticed in the odometer picture, it says it's 78 degrees. It hasn't been that warm around here since last summer!!! What gives with that? Picture taken inside a hot garage? Old picture?

ETA3: Ok last update...I just ran this through a BMW VIN decoder (from the dealer website) and it was optioned with xenon headlights. Seems to be a pretty bad salvage attempt. And makes me skeptical of the whole dealer.

That's called a "manipulation dot" and is to be steered clear of at all costs (if you ever want to resell). It occurs when a used odometer with lower mileage than the engine (ECU/BCM) is installed. If you use an odometer with a higher mileage, no dot appears.

The "right" way to do this repair is to buy a new cluster and have it coded. This particular truck could have 200,000 miles on it... who knows. I thought it was illegal for a dealer to sell a vehicle like this without stating the mileage is unknown or something.

Edit: Still looks like a nice truck... if he would sell for $4000-5000 I'd still go take a look. But I doubt that's the case.

This X is so jacked with, I wonder if it's still got the 4.6 motor.

Hope anyone looking at it gets a REAL PPI, the Goodyear PPI in ad means NOTHING more then it's safe to drive down the road.

It's not illegal to resell a car with a bad or tampered odometer. All you have to do is fill out a disclosure statement saying that the actual mileage is unknown.

RCW 46.12.665: Odometer disclosure statement required—Exemptions.

If someone wants to buy a car in that shape, that's on the buyer.

Oh I know... but he says in the ad the X has 97k miles... which it doesn't. And yes, if the buyer is okay with any discrepancy a sale is legal. But the buyer needs to be aware of that discrepancy to be okay with it.

Plus, he's asking $10,500... which is a TON of money for something that hacked together. It's a $4000 to $5000 truck IF it drives alright.

That particular one has been on Craigslist for quite some time. There's probably many reasons why it hasn't sold yet. It's kind of funny that they advertised it with such "low miles"!!! When obviously the cluster had been swapped. Shady business IMO

Ran the carfax and it states that it had 124,555 miles on it in 06/16/2011, non collision total loss according to the insurance company, sounds like either complete engine destruction or a flood damaged car. I wouldn't even doubt if someone did swap in a regular 4.4 into it.

Easy to find out.

Warm up the motor then stand on the throttle, if it's a 4.6 engine, the tach will swing way past redline of the non 4.6 cluster.

Someone, please go take a look at it and enlighten the seller that he is a crook! I'm interested to hear how it drives, considering all of the evidence indicating tampering...

that may not even be the correct mileage:dunno::dunno:

Precisely why someone needs to check it out. Sad thing is someone (likely younger) will buy this X and be stuck with a lemon.

There is no may. It is NOT the correct mileage. It's likely off by 100,000 miles according to it's mileage in 2011 according to the carfax.

Well, "lemon" is the incorrect word.

Lemon refers to a vehicle that has issues during initial build that cannot be corrected after 3 attempts and/or a specific period of time (by manufacturer).

A salvage title rebuild, done poorly or otherwise, doesn't fall into the lemon category (BMW holds NO liability to this X, the "rebuilder", Dr Frankenstein does).

Where was the car located? If it's an area which floods regularly, it could very well be flood damage. If it's not, maybe it's a blown engine or trans (or both).

As a side, is engine failure/catastrophic mechanical failure a special rider on an auto insurance policy? I didn't think insurance covered things not road debris/damage/collision related?

Or would this be the lien holder's policy that covered it when the owner in 2011 had the failure?

A theft recovery with a blown engine is covered by insurance.

Could be considered a "total loss" on a +10 yr old vehicle (salvage title).

Dr Frankenstein can purchase dirt cheap, swap another wrecked/salvage title M62 motor (4.4?) in, and sell as a "rebuilt title".

Here is a screenshot, I'm on my phone so sorry for the giant images.

http://i.imgur.com/EUx5K54.png

http://i.imgur.com/D2Y7XrP.png

Record flooding rains in California the same month this X was given "total loss"/non-collision status, coincidence???

https://weather.com/forecast/regiona...erra-snow-2015

LOLZ at those Carfoxes

Looks like this X is a huge POS...feel bad for the whoever purchases it

I work for a private dealer, and unfortunately this is a very common occurrence, people are constantly trying to screw other people over,.

I know someone who's insurance covered the engine hydro locking. I was surprised but they paid up.

If it happens while driving... I've seen it covered at the shop a few times as well.

This X is going to seriously disappoint some unsuspecting buyer. :(

The vehicle is what it is. All that someone has to do is check it out to see if its worth of rescue and make them offer. You really do not know if the dealer cobbled this vehicle back together. This vehicle could have very well been acquired from a wholesaler or other resource. A simple conversation with the dealer as to how the vehicle was received and what work they performed specifically will clear up a whole lot of confusion. I do not feel sorry for whoever purchases this vehicle. The description says rebuilt title. That pretty much says what you are starting with.

While, I agree with you to a point. Most people aren't familiar with BMW's, let alone the e53 before they purchase one. It's going to be bought either, by some young kid who doesn't know any better, or possibly an enthusiast from another platform who isn't familiar with the e53. An e53 enthusiast wouldn't touch that for >$5000. IF it runs well and checks out motor and suspension wise that is.

On the other hand, anyone looking to purchase an older niche vehicle should do their due diligence and perform at least a modicum of research and background checks. So I guess I can see both sides of the coin... doesn't make me want to punch whoever cobbled that thing together (and the seller for misrepresenting the mileage) square in the jaw any less. :dunno:

Looking at the CarFax, the Lynnwood dealer isn't going to know anything about the history. The salvage title was issued in CA which suggests the rebuild was done there. And it's been for sale for a really long time. At that price, no surprise.


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At the very least... the dealer would know that the odometer is not actual miles and should state that in the advert. I agree they probably know nothing about the actual rebuild.

rebuilt title = salvage title = scrapyard parts vehicle. Anyone who buys this vehicle weather enthusiast or average retail customer should realize what this car is(essentially a vehicle that was damaged enough to go to the scrapyard and totalled out by the insurance company. Not a good purchase if you ever decide to want to sell it.

Do enthusiast buy salvage cars?

This car will go to a noob and he will live the rest of his life thinking bmws are piles of crap after owning this one for a year or so.... That's just my prediction.

I just can't believe the seller/dealer (mr. Shady) is advertising false miles. That's just bad business right there all for what? To possibly make an extra grand or so. That's the only thing that bugs me. People sell overpriced junk everyday.

Or they can come down to P town....

https://portland.craigslist.org/mlt/ctd/5474965022.html

Asking ten for this one too. I couldn't get off the phone with the guy, and he was down to 8k just per our conversation! Lol
https://portland.craigslist.org/clc/ctd/5486911940.html

I have seen a number of enthusiasts purchase salvaged vehicle. Some use them for parts.

Not all salvage titles are equal. Some can be dangerous, same can be irrelevant. a car totaled from vandalism and a car totaled from getting tboned are not the same thing. A stolen vehicle and a flood vehicle, a light front corner impact and a fire, they all get salvaged titles. It really depends on what happened.

I'm not speaking for this one, nor do I own anything with a salvaged title, there is just a stigma associated with them that is a little silly.

This is true but this vehicle has clearly been an accident and cobbled back together. Not to mention the improper gauge cluster. So there is a lot wrong with this one on the surface. There is probably a lot more beneath the surface.

Yes this one looks hacked together

None of us can conclusively state this will be an unreliable vehicle. The fact it's been "cobbled together" doesn't prove as much. Will this vehicle be a good purchase? That depends on the buyer. There are many people who really won't care that it's been cobbled together. They'll look at it and say "That's what I want" and then buy it. Will it fall apart on them? We don't know. Merely being cobbled together doesn't ensure that it will.

There's a lot wrong with this vehicle starting with the misleading mileage. But merely being cobbled together doesn't mean it will be unreliable.

Exactly, I don't see what the big deal is. If you don't like what you see, don't buy it. As for who ends up buying it, that's on them. As you stated, They'll look at it and say "That's what I want". Some people do not care if it's been rebuilt or "pieced together" as long as it looks good and the repairs were properly done. As for what's he's asking for, he can ask for whatever he wants. Is it worth $10495 ? probably not. With all of the noticeable problems I'm sure you can haggle a bit. Depends on how bad you want it.

Sunny, reliability is not the issue. You're right, it could be dead reliable.

I hope you guys never send your parents or significant others out to buy cars by themselves. It sounds like you are okay with shady business practices and place responsibility totally on the purchaser to be aware of all of these things.

That's like going in for a knee replacement and asking the doc about the brand of knee being used... it's components... success rate... etc. Nobody can be an informed purchaser on ALL things. Just because we KNOW that truck is not worth $10500, it shouldn't be expected that everyone should know. Or even a majority of people. I bet less than 20% of BMW enthusiasts even know what a manipulation dot is.

My problem with it is not necessarily the price, because you're right, he can ask what he wants. But my problem is the way it's being marketed. A "low-mileage" rebuilt truck is not what that thing is.

Oh yeah I bet depending on which salesman you ask about that dot on the instrument cluster, you might get an answer like "Oh thats the below freezing indicator light, etc." Crystalworks is right most would not recognize that the illuminated dot is a tamper dot.

At the very least I'd hope that a potential buyer of this car looks at the CarFax to see that they're not getting the low mileage car they think it is. And hopefully that opens their eyes so they look at it very closely before buying.


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Which is the point of my post.

I made no comment on the business practices of the seller (however I did mention there were issues...such as the misleading mileage). My response was focused on the un/reliability of the vehicle being sold.

A little reality check on total loss/rebuild vehicles.

These vehicles attain total loss status when most competent repair facilities cannot repair damage without exceeding value of vehicle.
These shops have high shop rates, partly due to 100s of thousands of dollars invested in equipment to fix vehicles correctly.

Most vehicles that go from total loss to rebuilt title are done in shops with low overhead, limited equipment, and a STRICT eye on the bottom line. A minimum of new parts, cheap China parts and corner cutting are the norm (a build it back just good enough to look nice and sell mentality).

While there are good "rebuilt" vehicles on the market, they are the exception, not the rule.

I'm sure if you asked the seller to split the cost of a real BMW PPI, he would show you the door.

I know. I should have made that clearer in my response. You were solely referring to the potential reliability. However, as Tiag pointed out, that would be the exception rather than the rule due to the reasons he stated.

I might go take a look this weekend. If I do, I'll report back. Could be fun. I used to sell cars back in the day. (not a typical d-bag salesman)

If you do, make sure and ask the person who advertised it why they are advertising false miles. And then ask them how they sleep at night knowing that they are a scamming people with false advertising and price gouging. Then tell him that you hope he doesn't have offspring.

I'd like to hear his response.

I know it was brought up earlier, but the false miles is just not sitting well with me. It's like third world shit. I should call and have a chat, but what good would that do? Nothing. Or maybe I could get them to change their add?

I agree the likelihood of problems increases with this kind of "repair". However that doesn't mean it can't be a good vehicle for someone who buys it as long as the buyer goes in knowing what they're getting (and from the looks of things the seller is not going to provide them this information so hopefully the buyer will check it out thoroughly).

There are a lot of people out there who want the BMW badge and will buy one you or I wouldn't touch. They won't care if it has the correct instrument cluster. Or they don't care about the mileage (or if the mileage indicated in accurate). They want a BMW and if this is priced right (which it doesn't appear to be) they'll buy it.

We are not the target buyer for this vehicle. This seller is targeting the "I want a BMW / X5 buyer" who cannot afford a "nicer" one. That's an ironic statement given the asking price of the vehicle...the price seems to be inline with "nicer" ones. Which means it's likely out of reach for the target buyer and probably the reason it hasn't sold yet.

Whoever buys this vehicle most likely isn't going to care about these things. They're going to see it as a vehicle they'd like to drive. The fact the mileage is incorrect most likely won't matter (I know here in Colorado I don't even think you need to do a mileage disclosure once a vehicle is over 10 years old).

Is the dealer being dishonest...I think so given there are a number of indicators that the mileage is in error (there's a huge red flag on the Carfax screaming out at you to this effect). Hopefully whoever buys this at least reviews the Carfax so they'll see it). But there are potential buyers who genuinely do not care. That's the target buyer for this vehicle.

How can he be scamming anybody, The vehicle is advertised on Craigslist. The original breeding ground of scammers:confused:

Funny:). Your right

I'm just too honest. I base my life around honesty.

They were closed today but I did get a call from them. I said that I'd be happy to take a test drive this week.
This should be fun. I'm thinking it's a 4.4 engine in a 4.6is chassis.

Let us know how it goes Plattus1000

The 7000 4.6 vs 6200 4.4 RPM redline will be a DEAD giveaway!

The truck looks nice but there were hints that it wasn't a 4.6 engine the secondary air valves in the air box didn't open when he started it and he couldn't explain the milage discrepancy from the carfax. Claimed they bought it as a "mechanical total" and did the timing guides.
I left when he wouldn't let me put a scan tool on the rig.
Pass and avoid.

Wow!

That's a REALLY shady move. Not allowing a potential purchaser to scan the vehicle.

As stated prior, some fool will buy this then complain about BMWs being a POS.

He just called me back to tell me that carfax can be wrong sometimes. I reminded him about the light on the 4.4 instrument cluster. "that's how we bought the car"
Sketchy.

Won't let you scan, and Carfax is wrong?

This used car lot is total garbage.

A scan would vindicate the vehicle if he thought Carfax was REALLY wrong!

Would he let you test the RPMs to verify it is, in fact a 4.6?

It could be true, maybe isn't true. If there's too many things that don't add up, most likely the engine isn't a 4.6 and it might have other similar issues. Dealer could be in on it/ maybe that's how they got it. Some places are honest and say you can scan it and will also let you bring someone to look at it. The thing here is some people buy BMW's and don't know jack about them besides the three letters of the brand. Heck some don't even know what BMW stands for. They don't know how to maintain them/fix them and then complain and say it's a POS. They just buy them for the brand.


Is it going to bring them problems? Who knows. Maybe the engine is good and the only issues would be the mileage and different engine. When I first got my E53, I got it because I was familiar with the M54 as a brother of mine used to own a 530i a while back. The engine was really reliable and repairs were doable with the right tools. I would hope if you buy a BMW please have some knowledge and at least do some research before you buy one. I'm not familiar with their V8's and don't have the tools/experience to fix the timing issues, which is my I steer away from them. I'll stick to what I know. Just my 2 cents. Not trying to offend anybody here, also not directed to anybody. Just my opinion.

So the dealer will not allow for pre purchase inspection of the car? PPI would have a scanner hooked up to see the codes and verify the make-up of the vehicle. If this procedure is not allowed then definitely a shady dealer. At least you know what/who you are dealing with. Move on

If there's no CEL or SES light on it could mean that there isn't any problem or it could mean that they reset the DTC. A scan would indicate if the codes were cleared recently and the drive cycle would be incomplete. I scan my G35 last year when I was purchasing it and it indicated an incomplete drive cycle. Brought this to the attention of the saleman. I was able to knock an additional $1,000 off the asking price.

If they don't let you do a scan, it means they got something to hide.

For the record, I just saw a 4.6is on CL and posted it but I felt bad once people started picking the 2 rigs apart via the pics. I hadn't looked too closely at either just thought I'd let the forum know what was coming up local. I'm not in the market nor am I ever trying to endorse a CL find.
We bought one in descent shape and it still ate $14k in the first single year of ownership. I doubt we could get $12k if we wanted to sell it.

And most people here in the states pronounce it wrong. It's not B M UU (double U)

In Germany it's pronounce B M V.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wjvV34UIuI

They would be better off buying a brand that is the same price but a lot of less mileage and a lot newer.

NO chance of the German pronunciation catching on here in the US.

FYI, the German pronunciation of AMG is, I am gay.

People in the states also pronounce PORSCHE wrong.

It's nor Porch, it's Por sha.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDvPeBGFVZw

At least most PORSCHE owners knows how to pronounce it correctly.

:rofl:

^:iagree: I've been correcting people for years especially dumbass "car guys" who say Porsh LOL - I said go ahead if you want to sound like an idiot keep saying "whoa nice Porsh mannnn"

I also shake my head sideways when people ask me how my BEAMER is doing - I remark to them I have a Triumph motorcycle and not a BMW

I've heard Porsche pronounced incorrectly by so many people that should know better so many times I have doubted myself and gone back and checked the pronunciation again.

I can remember buying and trading baseball cards where I learned "BUYER BEWARE". Unless we are incapable for some reason, that insight is ingrained very early on.

I can also remember driving 60 miles to Detroit to buy my first car off a dumpy used car lot. I knew before I left I was going to buy the car and when I saw things I should have been concerned about I invited the salesman to convince me they didn't matter and to keep me emotionally involved so that I completely discounted them. I'm not alone in that scenario and that won't change.

There have been times when I did everything right and everything went wrong. Odds were certainly better that I made a good purchase but "sh$t happens".

It's interesting to read the posts as folks are noticing stuff in the pictures that I didn't initially pick up on even owning a 4.6. so I am even more aware of how difficult it is for a lay person to make an informed decision. We don't even agree.

Personally, I wouldn't bother challenging seller ethics and wouldn't make a buying decision on whether or not I could hook up a scanner or rev the engine to 7000. I wouldn't let anyone off the street hook up a scanner to my X5. I would never think of free reving my X5 to 7000 let alone allowing someone else to do so. It would be entertaining to hear what the sellers say about input and requests but I wouldn't be surprised if, regardless of the results, we don't all agree on go or no go.

Oddly enough, this is what brought me to a BMW. I was originally on the search for a Toyota 4Runner in the $15k-20k ballpark. What I found was a 10 year old vehicle with over 100k miles.

I remembered Top Gear episodes where they found old used luxury cars for a pittance. So on a lark, I checked out BMW and Mercedes only to find that I could get a similar year car with more features and LOWER mileage for the same price.

For example...this 4Runner has 99k miles and is $17k.

This Dodge Journey is only 3 year old and under 32,000 miles so it still have the balance of the factory warranty and it $1,000 under $17,000. It is also a one owner vehicle.

3C4PDCDG6DT588961 | 2013 Dodge Journey Crew for sale in Chicago, IL

LOL I don't think anyone was holding it against you...

We were just picking it apart because the ad looked shady, the car IS shady, and the dealership turned out to be shady. We are BMW enthusiasts... if it was a near perfect car we wouldn't be picking it apart but saying how good of a deal it was. :thumbup:

I meant, I felt bad for the guy looking at this thread in hopes of finding a 4.6is. Like I'd led them to a tainted fountain.

I like Bcredliner, own one and didn't look hard enough at the pics to see what you guys did. I love knowing about thst little yellow light though. That's really cool to know about.
I think for $4-5k, it'd be a great 1st car for a highschooler with a grease fetish and expendable income. College kid, no way. Young parents, nope. Guy wanting to add an s62 or LS, definitely a go.
The rig looked pretty pristine on the outside.

But then you're stuck with a Dodge. And who the hell would want that? ;)


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And that 3 year old Dodge still has around 10 more years of sliding down the value slope.

New vehicles take 10 to 15 yrs to reach an age where, if maintained correctly, the depreciation stops.

Sure, the Dodge will not be needing the costly maintenance/repairs of a 13yr old E53 (cost seen by owner (has to open wallet to keep it running properly)), but the owner has the "unseen" cost that is not realized until it's time to sell/trade.

This is what makes WELL MAINTAINED BMWs near the bottom of the curve so appealing, maintenance/repair costs going forward are into an asset that maintains value (and driving something that's actually a pleasure to operate).

It all comes down to what the owner wants, see the money going into vehicle during ownership (E53), or ride the slope and get the loss at the end (Dodge).

Plenty of Mopar fans out there. My dad was a Mopar mechanic.

My first car was a Dodge. Got me through 4 years of College. First car that I brought with my own money was a 1970 Plymouth Cuda 340 with a 6 pack. Wish I kept that car. Could have probably sold it for a lot more than a new E53.

I've been a Dodge fan for years, bought a few Vipers.

As for the rest of the modern Dodge fleet? I pass.

Worth noting, when I was researching the purchase of my first Viper, I found it interesting that Chrysler Corp and dealers got more profit per unit on a $30,000 Caravan then they saw on a $70,000 Viper. The Viper was built as a Halo vehicle for the brand (car buyers come in to look at the Viper, then test drive other Dodge products), loved the "bang for the buck" aspect (selling Vipers for around what the cost was to engineer/build).

8 yrs and 100k miles after purchase, I sold that first one ('94 model, showroom queen until fall '95, traded in for a new '97 GTS with 3300 miles) for $9900 less then I paid.

Classic Mopar, Vipers, and specialty cars like the Hellcat Chargers/Challengers are a different beast. By and large, today's Chrysler/Fiat vehicles are unreliable garbage.

Honestly, unless something changes, I won't be buying an American brand again. Fords are expensive with low quality and flimsy materials, GM covers up deadly defects, and Chrysler/Fiats are unreliable (1 recall per month on the Grand Cherokee a couple years ago). No thanks.


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Even though it's a BMW, most X5 were built in Tennessee. I guess you never had to replace a door handle carrier because of the cheap pot metal design, or a CCV system because it got clogged with sludge, or valve stems seal that is only good for 80,000 miles, or chain guides.

When I sold my Cuda, I could hear the new owner wind the car through the gears as he drove away with a smile on his face.

I don't think a blanket statement about any brand is applicable. Even here with the exact model, year and similar mileage there are huge differences in personal experience.

The reputable organizations that review models and brands very seldom agree on reliability or total cost of ownership. History of poor or great quality of a model or brand can be an indicator of current products but that is often not the case. Manufacturing automation and technology has vastly reduced variations in quality and there are frequent advancements. A conclusion made as recent as 3 months ago will very likely be inaccurate.

My bet is Hellcats and Challengers come off the same assembly line or one using the same automation.

I have to strongly disagree with this. There are brands that are known to be quality and others which are known to be...well...let's just say not so much.

Toyota and Honda are well known for their reliability. They've earned this reputation over decades. Many American brands are known for being unreliable. Mostly due to the 80's and 90's. They're starting to shake that reputation but they haven't proven themselves yet. If someone were to ask for my advice as to a reliable vehicle Toyota and Honda would get my recommendation. Chevy, Chrysler, and Ford...no, not yet.

My comment was not a declaration. Key words-----can be an indicator---

What you are saying is American brands have improved since the 90s so if we base our quality judgment on that time period the indicator is not currently valid.

"...but that is often not the case."

Key words.

What I am saying is a manufacturers reputation is an excellent indicator to current model reliability. Is it absolute? Certainly not. But it's probably the best indicator (barring some fundamental change with the manufacturer)

Key words meant what I had already posted,suggesting you misinterpreted what I said. Whether it is or not often the case or a strong or weak indicator, it is one indicator. By what you posted about quality in the 80-90s verses today you are agreeing with me. You certainly are welcome to your opinion if the improvement is enough or not, I am not saying one way or another, certainly not of all products of a particular brand. I'm done, not important and off topic.

I'm sure that they do come off the same assembly line. My point was that they're specialty vehicles which come with a different set of expectations. Much like an old Road Runner...

There are definitely trends by brand. JD Power is a well respected study of them:

Dependability:
2016 Vehicle Dependability Study (VDS) by Make | J.D. Power

Quality:
2015 Initial Quality Study (IQS) by Make | J.D. Power

I made no misrepresentation. I disagree with it.

What are the other indicators?