Torque Converter Slipping -- SOLVED --
 

My x is giving me code 000030 Egs: Coverter lockup clutch, excessive slip. Dealer quoted me $7k for a new trans. It will only slip at high rpm and in low gear when taking off hard from a complete stop. Won't slip at all if I keep the rpms under 3.5k. Need advice on where to get a new converter. The trans shifts solid and flawlessly so I don't see why I should replace it. I am pretty sure I can swap the converter myself but have no idea where to get it. I've used cobra transmission for my transfer case chain but they don't seem to have the converter for the zf5hp24 trans. Any suggestions? Is there a more heavy duty converter option than the stock zf one? I tow a small trailer full of tools quite often and would like a beefier one if it is available. Has anyone else had this problem? I also have code 00000F EGS: Pressure Actuator EDS, total current. Could this be a pressure related issue and not a bad converter? I have seen these: Oversized Lubrication Valve Kit - 139740-03K - Sonnax which say that they will fix the TC slip problem. Any input would be appreciated!

No input? I'm really stuck on this issue as I have no prior experience of working with transmissions. Really, any help would be much appreciated.

Hi,

I had X's tranny rebuilt for $5200 canadian.That includes the new friction packs and rebuilt Torque Converter.
Give that you are in the US,you should be able to get a better deal and indy transmission shop than at the dealership.If there's one reputable shop around that knows about euro transmissions.So they don't start refilling it with let's say Dexron or Mercon fluid instead of LT71141.
On the other hand,if the money isn't that much of a concern,then getting a ZF rebuilt tranny from dealer is a good choice.It should come filled with right stuff to the right level etc.

I have a brand new torque converter from BMW for 5HP24 trans. The client had me special order the unit and paid for it. The vehicle met up in an unfortunate accident prior to us doing the install and of course the he no longer has an X5. Since this was a special ordered unit there is no return. So if you are needing one I can make you a great deal on obtaining it. PM me if interested and we can proceed from there.

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

You can check with these guys on the torque converter:

BMW - ZF5HP24 Transmissions

but in my experience, when the converter lock-up clutch goes, it has usually dumped enough worn friction material into the fluid that it and other friction surfaces become contaminated and exhibit reduced performance as well.

I have seen good prices for a remanufactured transmission from:

BMW X5 Certified Reman Transmissions

when checking on the GM 5L40E for mine.

2002 X5 3.0 298,000 miles (still on original fluid)
2014 428i 16,900 miles

2004 325i sold at 123,600 miles
2001 325i sold at 66,000 miles

Error codes can be deceiving. Specific symptoms can be associated with more than one cause. I suggest going to a well recommended transmission repair shop that routinely works on BMWs.

A symptom that identifies the the torque convertor as the core cause is that often there is a whine at idle. In park less, and increases in drive

The 4.6 has a beefier torque convertor.

Agree with SRMMMM, even if the T/conv is the problem, it will dump a load of rubbish in to the trans... At over 150k refreshing the trans is not a bad idea.

I did mine for under 2k all-in but that was in my garage. Not a shop charging 200/hr. I've got almost 50k since my rebuild, so it was worth the pennies.

I was going to rebuild my tranny but I just serviced it and it is running great
I would call ZF they have shops all across the country , they quoted me $2800 for shops in NY[just to rebuild the old one], call them up it's worth it.

I was getting a slip error on my tranny which I had rebuilt 10k prior. Turned out it was the ABS module giving erratic problems causing the transmission error. Next I was getting a ABS wheel sensor failure. It was all due to the module. Replaced it, no more issues.

If my trans really needs a rebuild, I am going to try and tackle it myself. I've got the space and the tools as well as being pretty mechanically inclined. My question is whether or not the torque converter is actually the issue. Could it be a valve body issue with a worn valve letting pressure through to the torque converter causing it to unlock and slip at high rpm? Could I use a 4.6 torque converter in my 4.4 if the torque converter is the root of the problem?

The 4.6is converter would not match the torque characteristics of your 4.4i engine and anyway it’s physically larger (280mm circuit diameter compared to 260mm) so the ribs in the bellhousing have to be machined to accommodate it.
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/i...ps8c1dd059.jpg

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The larger L51 converter was also used for the 4.8 litre Alpina B10 & Z8 Roadster models

Phil

The 5HP24 transmission is used in both the 4.4 and the 4.6. There is no part number for the bell housing portion for the transmission. What info do you have that indicates the torque convertor won't fit?

Assuming the 4.6 torque convertor fits there are lots of other specs particular to the application that enter into choosing the appropriate convertor for your needs. The following explains the complexity of that chore: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5JFMs8gdbs

If it doesn't fit the option is out the window. If it does, you may or may not like how it changes the driving experience, assuming it is enough to notice. We would have to know the rpms that the 4.4 and 4.6 cams 'come on' to know if that matters but diff ratios are different, tire size is different etc.

IMO, based on the low frequency of 4.4 torque convertors failures, the stock convertor is all that you need in a stock 4.4 even if you are towing.

It is important to reiterate that at this point none of us know the cause of the problem you are having and IMO taking it to a 'certified' well recommended transmission shop familiar with BMW transmissions before spending a dime on new parts or tearing it down is the best course of action. If I were to spend any $$$ it would be to drain the fluid and remove the pan so you can see if there is metal in the pan, examine the fluid, replace the filter and fluid to see if there is improvement. Quite often, once there is a transmission problem changing fluid will at best be a short term benefit but if is worth a try.

Be sure to make an informed decision before you decide to pull and repair an automatic transmission, it's not for the faint hearted.

There are three bellhousings used for the 15 different models of the 5HP24 used in BMWs

1) 1058 322 016 is used for the majority of models (003, 004, 005, 010, 016, 017, 018, 020, 021, 022 & 029)
2) 1058 322 012 is used for the diesel models (023 & 036) – obviously because they’re mated to the M57 engine rather than the M62
3) 1058 322 020 is used for the 034 & 035 models which use the larger L51 torque converter. The casting is the same as for 1058 322 016 but, as already discussed, the stiffening ribs are partially machined away to provide clearance for the larger converter

Nine different torque converters are used for BMW models of the 5HP24 (and 4 different converters for Jaguar models)

Phil

Good to know. Do you have a link to that information Phil?

If you don't know, Phil has pretty much written the book on tear down and rebuild of the 5HP24 transmission. You'll find his great knowledge on a number of groups which use such it such as BMW, Range Rover and if I recall correctly Jaguar. I think he rebuilds them as a hobby��

Yes a man of Phil's talents does not go unrecognized. He is a wealth of a resource.

I use ZF’s Service Data Management software which covers all of the models, although this pdf version is fine for just North American models :

https://www.zf.com/global/media/zf_m...sa_4/5HP24.pdf

and the repair manual is useful too :

http://www.jagrepair.com/images/Auto...r%20Manual.pdf

I’ve got quite a few 5HP24s on the go at the moment :

http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/i...psijnxtti2.jpg

Phil

Wow Phil is like a God. A restorer of what was once broken (5HP24trans) and now healed.:bow:

Thanks for the links.

Nothing like the security of lots of backlog. Nice looking space and well organized. Says a lot.

Do you do high performance rebuilds for faster shifts, to handle more torque, etc? Can the 24 be replaced with a ZF with more gears without extensive modifications?

So I've given it some thinking and I've decided to do a full rebuild. I don't see any point in throwing parts at it when I have 159k on the x and the fluid is most likely original (judging by how burnt it is). I would rather spend a few extra bucks and just do the whole thing over and not have to worry about it. Need recommendations on where to get all the parts, and what to upgrade/replace while I have the whole thing torn apart. Thanks!

Did you fix it?

Well, hopefully haha. I just finished the trans rebuild last night. Did all the seals, frictions, and valve body rebuild. Need to do the rear main on my motor then I can get the x back up and running.

Well all right excited to see the outcome of your re-build. Let us know when you have installed and back in the X.

Ok, so finally an update: I've rebuilt the trans (frictions, seals, gaskets, reman tc, and valve body with updated main pressure piston) and it's back in the car and driving. BUT, I still have the same problem with the LUC slipping at anything above ~4k rpm. It has noticeable loss of power to the drive wheels when accelerating hard and an audible murmur. The only other thing I could think it would be is the lubrication valve. Should I try getting the oversized one from sonnax? They claim it will solve TCC pressure issues. Other than this, the trans is shifting as smooth as butter and feels great! Hoping that RRphil could chime in on this.

When you did the valve body rebuild did you swap the four ‘black cap’ EDS solenoids around or did they all go back in their original positions?

I would have thought that your 029 transmission had the latest hydraulics with the later (10mm land width) main pressure valve. Did the one you took out have a 9mm wide bottom land?

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Phil

Phil, the solenoids did get switched around. I didn't know they had to be replaced in their original positions. But this is the exact same problem I was having before I touched anything on the trans. And the valve body had the older pressure valve with the smaller bottom land. I replaced it with the new one that came with the zf kit.

nothing helpful in this post to the OP but THANKS PHIL for the amazing contributions !

That’s fine – if you hadn’t already done so I was going to suggest that you swapped them around to see if the problem moved to a different part of the hydraulic circuit. So there’s no way that the EDS 4 solenoid, which controls the torque converter lock-up clutch, is still in its original position?

http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/i...t2008/EDS4.jpg

It’s just that I notice in your initial post you stated that a fault with an EDS solenoid had also been flagged. Is that error code still present? Unfortunately I don’t know how to translate the (hexadecimal?) error codes from your diagnostic kit into ‘P07XX’ format transmission error codes. Can anyone help with this, please?

So nothing looked untoward with the two LUC valves and the solenoid damper in the lower front block when you had it apart?

http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/i.../LUCvalves.jpg

You didn’t happen to record the transmission serial number off the green plate? If you have it I can check the manufacturing date and see what level of build you have.

http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/i...psa16eca2b.jpg

Phil

Phil, it is possible that the solenoid is in its original position, but not likely as I did not take any care in marking/organizing where they came out of the valve body.

The valves all looked to be in good condition when it was all opened up, so I cleaned and replaced them back in their original positions with new Springs from the zf kit.

As for the codes, I have no way to read them here at home. The ones I have are from the dealership when I had them check into this problem.

The serial number off the trans is 0362893

Could I use a multimeter to ohm out the solenoids? What would be a normal reading for them? I would rather not drop the pan just yet if I can help it.

Thanks, Ben

Your transmission came off the production line at Saarbrücken on 10th December 2000 so it missed the F-brake piston upgrade (August 2001) and the valve body assembly upgrade (October 2001).

You could check the integrity of the internal wiring loom and the winding resistance of the LUC solenoid by measuring the resistance between pins 11 & 16 at the 16-pin plug on the back of the transmission.

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It should measure close to 6.0 Ohms. Clearly this only tells you that the circuit is intact and doesn’t test the performance of the solenoid, for which you’d need a dedicated solenoid or valve body tester, but it’s still worth doing.

You’ve really completed all four ‘stages’ of identifying were the problem might lie i.e. swapped the solenoid, checked the valve block, replaced the shaft seals & replaced the torque converter. Did the two PTFE seals on the input shaft look okay when you had your transmission apart? Presumably you replaced them anyway with the ones from the kit?

http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/i...pse1oopsy0.jpg

Phil

Phil,

I did replace the F brake piston with the new one.

I will test the resistance right now and report back.

As for the input shafts seals, the old ones appeared to be in very good shape, no gouges or marks on them, but I went ahead and replaced them with the new ones in the kit anyways. I also made sure to get plenty of assembly lube on them to hold them and place.

Thanks, Ben

Ok, just measure those pins and got a reading of 6.3 ohms. Do you think it would be worth a shot trying to get a new solenoid and swapping it out?

Hmmm, problems with 5HP24 solenoids are very rare (in stark contrast to the 6HP26 where they’re a common issue) so I think it would be a long shot. Worthwhile swapping them around as it costs nothing but tricky to justify buying a new one based on the current evidence I think.

Could you just describe the exact issue again? The torque converter should be ‘open’ (i.e. lock-up clutch off) at low speeds, then the lock-up clutch is partially engaged at ‘medium’ speeds – in its continuous 3% slip mode to isolate torsional vibration - and it then only fully engages at higher speeds (not sure about the E53 but it only locks solid at speeds above 56mph in the Range Rover). I had diagnostics kit for my L322 that allowed me to monitor & record the behaviour of the lock-up clutch which certainly made diagnosing problems much simpler. Just what we need here!

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Phil

Phil,

sorry for the late reply, I was waiting on my code reader to be delivered. it's able to read the transmissions codes and data but unfortunately will not record it. Here's what I came up with: Only one code was displayed 3B stall speed monitoring.

Data read In park:

Gearbox Ratio - 1st
Pressure actuator 1 - 739ma
Pressure actuator 2 - 780ma
Pressure actuator 3 - 780ma
Pressure actuator 4 - 156ma (converter lockup clutch)
Pressure actuator 5 - 780ma
Solenoid valve 1 - on
Solenoid valve 2 - off
Solenoid valve 3 - on


The issue I am having is when accelerating and the rpms get above 3k there is a noticeable slippage and loss of power to the wheels coupled with a murmuring/shuddering sound. It's also not confined to one gear, happens in all the gears when accelerating and above 3k rpm. No issues whatsoever when you keep it under 3k when accelerating, the thing shifts smooth and the converter locks up normally. I tried clearing the code and it seemed to fix the issue for about 3/4 of a mile, so it's seeming to me that since this appears to be an intermittent issue that I have an electrical problem rather than a mechanical one.


I checked the camshaft position sensor on the bell housing and came up with 760 ohms. Pelican parts says it should read 600 ohms. Not sure if that could be related, but seems that more resistance might not necessarily be a good thing.


Let me know what you think, or if there's any other way I can get you more data.

Thanks, Ben

Did this ever get resolved? Very interesting and informative thread (although not to the OP) :pullhair:

Finally Solved!!!
 

I do apologize in advance for the untimely reply, but I have finally got this issue figured out. The transmission is fine after the rebuild and functions flawlessly and has been for the past 12k miles now. The problem with the noise I was getting is the AC compressor. I live in California and almost constantly have the AC on. Once winter rolled around and I had the AC off for once I noticed the mystery noise had gone away. So turns out the AC compressor is bad and the transmission is flawless. Basically to summarize the whole issue from the start:torque converter lockup clutch went bad and threw codes, I rebuilt the entire transmission and valve body with zf parts, and got the whole thing working again, still had similar noise and power loss issue after rebuild, finally figured out AC compressor is stealing power from the engine and vibrating when engine is over 3k rpms and giving same symptoms as when torque converter is was bad. What a journey this has been, and I couldn't have done it without this forum. I would like to give a huge thanks to everyone for the all the help and wish you all a Happy new Year!!!

Was it difficult to rebuild the transmission? Can anyone do it?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If you are mechanically inclined, detail oriented, have a clean space and some time you can. There are a number of threads on it, with pictures on make some special tools out of hardware store pipes to remove locking rings, etc.
Expect to be down for a bit, it's not a "weekend" project.