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Need some opinion on this engine. Am I screwed?
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Hi,
Some of you already know I've bought 03 4.6is pretty cheap. More info on, http://www.xoutpost.com/bmw-sav-foru...-03-4-6is.html Anyhow, I've purchased new motor, me and my friend replaced guides, rebuilt vanos, PCV valves, etc... anything that is PITA to do after the engine goes in. It's taken pretty long time because we both have family with young babies and full time job. So much we can work on each day. So we are at final stage, torquing down the crank shaft bolt. When we were tighting it up, crank spinned, and all of sudden water gushed out from exhaust port. #3 cylinder exact. I'll let pics and videos to do talking. https://youtu.be/xThqS5Bu4vs https://youtu.be/TWum8nJHqPY I tried to contact seller but the engine only has 30 day warranty. so pretty much no help financially. Having said that, he said crank the engine without spark plug and drip some engine oil, it should clean itself up and all water should come out. Also told me that sand like particles in water is from carbon build ups. Nothing to worry about. Is this trustworthy? I never seen anything like this.... I see some rust on the valves.... Not sure whether there could be some corrosion on piston and cylinder bore. What you guys think? Is this engine garbage? |
You need to stop. From here on in you will be wasting more time and money. There is no reason for water to be coming from combustion chamber. Unless spark plugs were left out and it was either pressure washed or left outside in rain, or the valves were open during a water event. the only other way is a blown head gasket. You have a big issue here and it needs to be diagnosed. not sure if engine is back in car. If it is, you can do a compression check turning it with the starter. If it is still on stand, do a leak down. If these tasks are beyond your skill set, I would put the tools down and seriously re-evaluate what you want to do here. I would suggest getting a shop involved. Not to be rude, but your questions lead me to believe this level of mechanics might be a stretch. Time to leave it to a professional or sell it and cut your losses. FYI, carbon has nothing to do with coolant. That the seller tells you that tells me all I need to know about them. Pretty sure he sold you an engine that is F$%##D
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Water came out the cylinder side or port side? If it's cylinder that means it possibly hydrolocked.
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If water is only gushing from number 3 cylinder, then it probably had a blown head gasket. I would put the starter back on the engine and see if you can spin the engine on the starter. Remove all the spark plugs so the engine can spin a little faster. A blown head gasket with the engine out is not the end of the world. I'm more concern with how long the water been in the engine. I assume the engine was sent with the oil drain from it. I would get a borescope and look down the spark plug holes of all the cylinder to see if you can see the cylinder wall with the pistons down. You may want to remove the oil pan and see the condition of the main and rod bearings. If the chain guide was intact that knocking is probably a burnt rod bearing. Coolant from the blown gasket probably leaked down into the oil pan and since oil float on top of water, the oil pump pick up was probably sucking up water and not oil. Water is not the best lubricant so the bearing got hot and got burnt. If the journal on the crank is scored then I wouldn't put any more time or money into that engine. GL |
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:rofl: |
If I was in your position, I would tear down both motors, send the best block and heads to a good shop for machining/refreshing, then rebuild one good motor with best parts from both motors.
As stated prior, cheap/non-running BMWs usually end up costing more in the end then fair priced/well sorted ones. |
How much did you pay for that engine if you don't mind me asking? Those things ain't cheap usually.
Take it to a machine shop/engine shop if you don't want to tear into it yourself. Someone familiar with Euro engines. Won't be cheap, but for what you got the truck for... would still be worth it. As upallnight said, sounds like a blown head gasket as I doubt a motor that valuable was left outside uncovered with the intake manifold or the plugs removed. Plus water would be in the other cylinders as well. If it has oil, drain it and see what comes out. You'll want to pull the lower and upper pans anyway as now would be the time to do those gaskets if the engine is usable. |
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He got the motor for $3500.
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Especially the cheap non running BMW or a running BMW with major issue. I would classify knocking sounds from an engine as a major issue. But I have brought my share of non running cars, especially exotic cars like Lotus and a Lotus with a rod knock. |
Especially the 4cyl turbo Esprit, these needed engine rebuilds every 20k miles if driven hard.
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You weren't there so you have no right to accuse me of causing an accident and fleeing the scene. |
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Was on my way home in the evening and another mustang pulled up next to me. I out accelerated him and was first to a left turn under an overpass. I had upgraded the brakes to Cobra calipers/rotors and I guess was able to out brake him and had no trouble making the turn. He spun and went into the concrete wall... I was young at the time and certainly wasn't going to stop. It didn't look serious, though don't think the car was driveable afterwards. Not one of my prouder moments... but no one's perfect. :dunno: I had stopped and have stopped to help people out numerous times so I'm still in the black. |
Boys, let's stay on point here. Liked the racing story, and totally appreciate it! Love shoving it up somebody's a#$ when you know your better. But our poor Brethren has a f$%*% motor, is out $3500 right now and trying to figure out what to do.
Depending on your financial situation, you have to decide whether to stay with this rig and see it thru till completion. I totally agree with the suggestion of making 1 good engine out of the 2. Comes down to whether you do it or pay a shop. I did the exact same thing with a 4.4 that had piston slap. Currently going 5K miles on the "frankenstein" motor and all is good. And it looks like OP hasn't commented back yet. I hope he does so all of this great advice isn't lost. |
From my brief so far BMW ownership experience if you can't put together one good engine out of those two yourself then just cut your losses. It wouldn't make sense at least for me to pay for labor on a car with sketchy history that you will never get your money out of.
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CapeX5 is right, as are all of you who have advised on here. I think if OP does decide to keep it and do the work himself he'll get plenty of help from the members on this forum....every single one of us has diy:ed various parts of this engine and combined we can make a whole one :)
A specialist can be used for certain tasks perhaps but most of the work can be done by oneself to save a few pennies. The one question you need to ask yourself before making a decision is: How long do I want to keep this car? Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk |
I would take apart the engine in the car and determine if the knocking sound is from timing chain guides like the OP originally suspected. If the guides are bad I would use the new guides that he just installed into the 3500 engine. If the guides are good then that knocking sound could be from something else like a rod knock.
If it is not the guides, I would do a compression check on both engines, paying attention to cylinder no.3 where he saw water coming out. If cylinder no.3 is lower than 10% of all the other cylinders that means rust has formed on the wall of the cylinder or rust have formed on the rings. This can be verify placing squirting some oil into the cylinder or using fogging oil sold at any marine and automotive store to see if the compression goes up. If the 3500 engine shows good compression on all the cylinders I would just do a head gasket job. The question is do you have the time to do this. I know of many couples who got divorced because the husband was spending too much time in the garage. |
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If I were you I'd demand my money back. The 30 day warranty is irrelevant as the issue isn't a failure of the engine but rather you were sold something that's not fit for the purpose you purchased it for. Unless the seller specifically provided a disclaimer to the condition of the engine they took advantage of you.
Did you pay by credit card? If so I'd dispute the charge. I think you'd have good reason to do so. |
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http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/fo...4-Kill-Stories |
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Unfortunately due to family and other commitments he didn't realize there was a problem until after the 30 days warranty had passed. The seller could come back with perhaps the buyer stored the engine outside and water got into the engine because of the storage. Even if the seller was willing to take back the engine, the shipping cost will still be the responsibility of the buyer, and most places have a restocking fee for return items. The contract between the seller and buyer was for a 30 days warranty on the engine. The warranty period starts the day it was delivered to the buyer. You do not get to rewrite the contract just because you were too busy to work on the car and get the engine installed. |
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Assuming the seller is being honest in his post (i.e. the water in the engine is not of his doing...the amount of water damage I see suggests the water was in the engine for quite some time) then the seller sold him an engine which is not fit for the intended purpose. Unless the seller sold it with the express disclaimer that it was non-functioning they ripped him off. Period. We don't have the terms of the sale but it's my opinion someone doesn't pay $3,500 for a non-functioning engine. Perhaps in this case the OP did however I would bet against that. If the OP paid by CC then he should immediately contact the CC company and have the charges reversed. |
I'd definitely be looking for some sort of resolution other than just "dealing" with it and making 1 engine out of 2. Some sort of compromise from the seller would be in order (so long as the engine was stored indoors or covered appropriately outside), or just file a claim with the CC company... $3500 is a lot for something that can not be just resealed and run. IMO anyway.
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The short answer there is not enough information to determine the condition of the engine, draw no conclusions by examining the water, stay optimistic and find out what is wrong. Based on the work you have already done I don't think you need outside help to figure this out.
OP has made no mention the 4.6 engine knocks or that he even has another engine. At this point there is no reason to conclude the engine is shot or can't be fixed at a reasonable cost. All we know is that there is water in one cylinder, could be rainwater for all we know. As mentioned, do a compression check if you can. If #3 is not fairly consistent with the other cylinders or you can't do a compression check, I would pull the head on that side to get a better look. That way you can confirm if it is a blown head gasket or a cracked head and see the condition of that cylinder and the others on that bank. Compression check is easy to do if you pull all plugs except the cylinder you test. Not necessary to spin the engine, just turn it by hand through 3-4 compression strokes to get a low/high range for that particular cylinder. Before you do that I would turn the engine over by hand 10 or so cycles with all plugs removed. |
Hang in there OP.
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The credit card company may reverse the charges on the condition that the engine is returned to the seller. The money will be returned to the buyer account once confirmation by the seller that the same engine that was shipped has been returned. They will not reverse the charges as long as the engine is in the buyer possession. eBay have the same policy. If you are dissatisfied with a product from a seller they will refund your money once the item is returned to the seller. |
In looking at the photo of the motor your supplier sent you it looks like it came off the bottom of a lake. Plan on pulling the heads. What was the issue with the original motor?
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There has been no response since the original post by White46.
There has been no mention about what was wrong with other engine even if there was one, no mention of a knocking sound or even if it is available. We don't know if it was shipped, we don't know how adamant seller was it is not his problem. I've worked with engines that looked worse than this 4.6 inside. Cleaned them up, dropped them in, squirted a little oil in each cylinder, fired them up and not a problem. If I were seller I wouldn't take the engine back yet, regardless of the warranty, not enough information to know if the water has caused a problem. The sky is cloudy, it has not fallen. |
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Having said all this I'm not sure why you're opposed to the buyer even making the attempt to recover his money. |
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Assuming the water was not a result of something the OP did (or did not do) then it was sold that way and if I were the buyer I would demand a refund. I wouldn't waste my time with it further. |
I think OP is not coming back. With 4 pages worth of responses and he isn't participating, I say leave this one alone. It bugs me when people come here with issues and then don't participate in the conversation. I actually find it really rude. If you don't have time to check in for the help YOU requested, than you don't deserve our time or effort. I know that some problems will help others, but this is a semi unique situation and he is way out of his element on the problem. Let's let this one die a natural death
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He is definitely in over his head by the sound of it. Me personally I would have torn down the original motor before hitting the buy it now button on the replacement.
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I missed the link to the old thread, my mistake, stand corrected.
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"...I tried to contact seller but the engine only has 30 day warranty." Water in the engine is not a warranty issue. |
You're right, it's not a warranty issue, it's a items not as described issue.
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Did the seller have a "running condition" warranty in the for sale ad?
If there was no "running condition" warranty, and the seller only stated something along the lines of "was running when vehicle was totaled/scraped/salvaged, that would be considered "puffing" from a legal standpoint. The bottom line here, If you expect a running engine, get it in writing/under warranty. If it's a short term warranty (30 day in this case), purchase motor when the vehicle is ready for the install, or purchase and have seller "hold" until contacted to ship (this "stop" the warranty clock until purchaser is ready to verify condition). ANY respectable person selling a motor with water in it (undisclosed in sale ad) would take it back and refund. Too many shady people selling garbage automotive parts online. |
Sorry guys for taking so long getting back.
I was Thanksgiving day weekend in Canada, and I was out of town. Also I am middle of perusing other career so that gives me more headache than this engine issue I'm having. Everyone has valid points and directions I should take. Thank you for spending time with valid inputs. Having said that, as much as I want this car running, I'm tired of it as well. All this should have been done couple months ago. Here is what is happening in brief summary. 1. Old engine is not usable. I suspect block is bad. More info on, http://www.xoutpost.com/1082146-post22.html 2. Seller is somewhat cooperative, but in the end, I don't think I can return the engine and get refund. Also I've paid the engine with cash (to save tax but very bad decision. kicking myself...) so no such credit card dispute I can do. 3. Seller is telling me that crank the engine to get all the water out and it should be fine. 4. BTW, seller (the person I've dealt with) is on vacation until Oct 22. which I knew before. He isn't trying to run away from me. 5. What I know is Cyl 1-8 are clean except 3 with water. No water was fond on lower oil pan. No water was found when valve cover was removed. 6. when we hand crank the engine, there is some resistance at certain point and it's difficult to make full revolution. Not sure it's due to corrosion on piston or bore, or just fighting compression with water in. 7. what I would like to do is, get all the water out first and do hand crank compression test, then hook up starter then compression test again. 8. if numbers are good from #7, then install the engine. As much as I would like to remove head and do visual inspection on bank 1, there isn't much space nor time with it anymore... :slap: As for warranty statement, ------------------------ 1. Engines are guaranteed to be in good operating condition with reasonable limits of specifications for 30 days* as stated by the seller (i.e., oil pressure, compression and oil consumption). Only the crankshaft, block, heads and valve train are covered under this guarantee. Accessories such as water pump,................. ------------------------ Obviously engine was not in "guaranteed to be in good operating condition" when I received it but it's beyond 30 day mark. It was more like DOA and how this implies to my case... |
Number 7 is a good plan.
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You can also fill the motor coolant system, plug the holes and do a pressure, leak test.
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Remove all the plugs and put the starter back on the engine and crank the engine until no more water is coming out. Before cranking the engine buy some fogging oil and give each cylinders a good spray.
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