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-   -   Reinforcement Plate Bolts: Are they really $16 each? (https://xoutpost.com/bmw-sav-forums/x5-e53-forum/105305-reinforcement-plate-bolts-they-really-16-each.html)

Webprogramma 12-16-2016 07:07 PM

Reinforcement Plate Bolts: Are they really $16 each?
 
1 Attachment(s)
2005 X5 4.4i V8

So, I took the plate off to get to the starter since the battery was dead and I couldn't get into the car. I got into the car and have a new battery and need to put the plate back on.

I have read many posts about these bolts/fasteners being 1 time use. I have seen old posts where these bolts used to be $3 each. Are they really $16 each now?

This X5 was not driven hard and the bolts have no real wear at all. Please take a look and let me know if you think that I'm safe to use these bolts again.

I just bought the vehicle and the radio doesn't work. I was told that the amp needed to be replaced. I believe it got wet. The car has an extended warranty and I just need to get it to a shop so that they can check out the amplifier and maybe order a new one.

Anyone know where I can get some cheaper screws? Would still like to use what I have if I can.

Thank you in advance.

X53Jay4.8is 12-16-2016 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Webprogramma (Post 1095998)
2005 X5 4.4i V8

So, I took the plate off to get to the starter since the battery was dead and I couldn't get into the car. I got into the car and have a new battery and need to put the plate back on.

I have read many posts about these bolts/fasteners being 1 time use. I have seen old posts where these bolts used to be $3 each. Are they really $16 each now?

This X5 was not driven hard and the bolts have no real wear at all. Please take a look and let me know if you think that I'm safe to use these bolts again.

I just bought the vehicle and the radio doesn't work. I was told that the amp needed to be replaced. I believe it got wet. The car has an extended warranty and I just need to get it to a shop so that they can check out the amplifier and maybe order a new one.

Anyone know where I can get some cheaper screws? Would still like to use what I have if I can.

Thank you in advance.

No one is going to tell you that it is safe to reuse your bolts for the stiffening plate. A number of us have reused with no problems others have replaced them every time they removed the bolts. I have removed mine on 4 occasions and reused them with no problem. Maybe on the next repair that requires removal of the plate I'll change them. its your call

X5only 12-16-2016 07:57 PM

I wonder if they can be replaced with reusable ones of the same dimensions? I'm pretty sure Tacoma Screws would have them. If the sub-frame bolts are reusable, I wonder why not these? What would be so special about that reinforcement plate? And why did BMW specify non-reusable bolts?

X53Jay4.8is 12-16-2016 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by X5only (Post 1096002)
I wonder if they can be replaced with reusable ones of the same dimensions? I'm pretty sure Tacoma Screws would have them. If the sub-frame bolts are reusable, I wonder why not these? What would be so special about that reinforcement plate? And why did BMW specify non-reusable bolts?

Easy money easy profit. manufacturers do this all the time.

bmw540san 12-17-2016 12:09 AM

I know there are Yays and Nays but I went to Ace and got proper 10.8 grade bolts along with nuts and washers for around $25 IIRC.

oldskewel 12-17-2016 01:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bmw540san (Post 1096022)
I know there are Yays and Nays but I went to Ace and got proper 10.8 grade bolts along with nuts and washers for around $25 IIRC.

Probably class 10.9. The 0.9 vs. 0.8 means the yield stress is that amount (90% vs. 80%) of the ultimate tensile stress. So it's not just a little different. I'm sure 10.9 is what you got, since that is the higher strength standard. (8.8 is lower, 12.9 is higher still)

oldskewel 12-17-2016 01:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Webprogramma (Post 1095998)
2005 X5 4.4i V8

So, I took the plate off to get to the starter since the battery was dead and I couldn't get into the car. I got into the car and have a new battery and need to put the plate back on.

I have read many posts about these bolts/fasteners being 1 time use. I have seen old posts where these bolts used to be $3 each. Are they really $16 each now?

This X5 was not driven hard and the bolts have no real wear at all. Please take a look and let me know if you think that I'm safe to use these bolts again.

I just bought the vehicle and the radio doesn't work. I was told that the amp needed to be replaced. I believe it got wet. The car has an extended warranty and I just need to get it to a shop so that they can check out the amplifier and maybe order a new one.

Anyone know where I can get some cheaper screws? Would still like to use what I have if I can.

Thank you in advance.

I've re-used mine. Just be aware that you can't use the same torque procedure (initial torque + angle after that) when you re-use them. You want to get back to the same amount of tightness without causing any more plastic deformation. If you were to use the same procedure multiple times you would certainly push it further into the deformation zone until it breaks.

On the radio, if it is still getting wet there, it is likely to be a problem with the hose leading from the left rear corner of the sunroof. Common problem on these cars, easy to test, easy to fix. Whatever it is, of course you should make sure the leak is fixed before replacing the stereo.

X53Jay4.8is 12-17-2016 02:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldskewel (Post 1096028)
I've re-used mine. Just be aware that you can't use the same torque procedure (initial torque + angle after that) when you re-use them. You want to get back to the same amount of tightness without causing any more plastic deformation. If you were to use the same procedure multiple times you would certainly push it further into the deformation zone until it breaks.

On the radio, if it is still getting wet there, it is likely to be a problem with the hose leading from the left rear corner of the sunroof. Common problem on these cars, easy to test, easy to fix. Whatever it is, of course you should make sure the leak is fixed before replacing the stereo.

agreed. Just make the bolts tight and your good to go

CapeX5 12-17-2016 07:00 AM

I have re used mine. And I think I have read most of the threads regarding this issue. In none I have read have I seen an explanation of what kind of engineered task that plate provides that necessitates the use of a TTY one time bolt! I don't want to start a whole pissing match on this, but would be very curious as to why. While I was working on my 01 I ran quite a while with the plate off and didnt' notice anything going on. Inquiring minds want to know....

bmw540san 12-17-2016 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldskewel (Post 1096027)
Probably class 10.9. The 0.9 vs. 0.8 means the yield stress is that amount (90% vs. 80%) of the ultimate tensile stress. So it's not just a little different. I'm sure 10.9 is what you got, since that is the higher strength standard. (8.8 is lower, 12.9 is higher still)

You're probably right. I know I've matched the original ones in terms of grade.

X53Jay4.8is 12-17-2016 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CapeX5 (Post 1096037)
I have re used mine. And I think I have read most of the threads regarding this issue. In none I have read have I seen an explanation of what kind of engineered task that plate provides that necessitates the use of a TTY one time bolt! I don't want to start a whole pissing match on this, but would be very curious as to why. While I was working on my 01 I ran quite a while with the plate off and didnt' notice anything going on. Inquiring minds want to know....

+1 on wanting to know. I mean really the plate appears to more of protection from the underside of the engine if you were to go off road. It doesn't appear to be structural since is attached to the subframe.

wpoll 12-17-2016 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by X53Jay4.8is (Post 1096047)
+1 on wanting to know. I mean really the plate appears to more of protection from the underside of the engine if you were to go off road. It doesn't appear to be structural since is attached to the subframe.

The plate IS structural in that it stops the sub-frame from twisting under torsional load. It works in a similar way to a diagonal brace on wall framing in a house. It doesn't need to be super thick or strong to stop diagonal distortion of the sub-frame but the mounting bolts DO need to hold it place very tightly to allow it to do its job.

This is why some folk get creaking from the plate when the bolts aren't tight - the plate is pulling sideways on opposite corners and the bolt-to-plate joint creaks and groans.

oldskewel 12-17-2016 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CapeX5 (Post 1096037)
I have re used mine. And I think I have read most of the threads regarding this issue. In none I have read have I seen an explanation of what kind of engineered task that plate provides that necessitates the use of a TTY one time bolt! I don't want to start a whole pissing match on this, but would be very curious as to why. While I was working on my 01 I ran quite a while with the plate off and didnt' notice anything going on. Inquiring minds want to know....

Agreed. There are a few reasons they might have done it, but I have never seen a reliable explanation of the true reason(s). It is not as simple as that they needed it really tight and the bolt could not take it more than one time. No. If they needed it really tight, they could have used a bigger bolt that would not plastically deform, and could be reused without worry.

A smaller bolt, like this, has more compliance than a bigger bolt would have. Maybe they needed that. Head bolts are often TTY for this reason.

A 10.9 bolt that is already torqued past its yield stress is, by design, close to breaking. Maybe there is an intention for it to break away on a collision, as part of the crash design.

Making your customers pay $100 for bolts each time the pan is removed may make financial sense. And it may dissuade some DIY mechanics from getting into the car more than they maybe should.

Using M10 bolts may have saved them a couple of dollars over M12 bolts when initially built. And maybe they had a mandate to not spend a penny on lifetime beyond 100k miles.

So while I re-use mine, and think I know enough to let me do it safely, I'd feel much better if I knew the true reason they did it. I doubt we'll ever know for sure.

upallnight 12-17-2016 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CapeX5 (Post 1096037)
I have re used mine. And I think I have read most of the threads regarding this issue. In none I have read have I seen an explanation of what kind of engineered task that plate provides that necessitates the use of a TTY one time bolt! I don't want to start a whole pissing match on this, but would be very curious as to why. While I was working on my 01 I ran quite a while with the plate off and didnt' notice anything going on. Inquiring minds want to know....

If you left the plate off, you will still need to reattach some of the bolts since these bolts are also used to secure the sway bar bushing to the sub-frame.

X53Jay4.8is 12-17-2016 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wpoll (Post 1096055)
The plate IS structural in that it stops the sub-frame from twisting under torsional load. It works in a similar way to a diagonal brace on wall framing in a house. It doesn't need to be super thick or strong to stop diagonal distortion of the sub-frame but the mounting bolts DO need to hold it place very tightly to allow it to do its job.

This is why some folk get creaking from the plate when the bolts aren't tight - the plate is pulling sideways on opposite corners and the bolt-to-plate joint creaks and groans.

Okay got it. When I think of structural I am under the impression that the without it the structure is going to fail during use. So without this stiffening plate will the structure of the X5 bend and twist thus making it unsafe to operate or is it just there for more added support?

dannyzabolotny 12-17-2016 06:02 PM

I have to remove this plate since I have to get to the oil pan to remove all the plastic bits from my failed timing chain guides. I'm going to reuse the bolts and just torque them down super tight, so I guess we'll see what happens. No way am I ever paying that much for some bolts.

wpoll 12-17-2016 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by X53Jay4.8is (Post 1096076)
Okay got it. When I think of structural I am under the impression that the without it the structure is going to fail during use. So without this stiffening plate will the structure of the X5 bend and twist thus making it unsafe to operate or is it just there for more added support?

I'm guessing now but I would say that as the sub-frame is tubular steel with welded junctions, the reinforcing plate is to reduce the stress on those "corner welds" when the sub-frame is subjected to twisting (torsional) forces, like entering a driveway at an angle etc.

Welds on tubular steel like this are very strong when compressed or stretched but not when twisted; the steel tends to fracture on the tube body along the weld line (the weld is often stronger than the thin-walled steel tube).

Lean way back on the rear two legs of a welded steel chair for a bit and see what happens... :rofl:

Now bolt a square piece of thin alloy sheet to the legs on one side (or both), using four bolts and see if you can lean back for longer. The thin sheet will prevent the "square" steel frame from becoming a parallelogram, breaking the welds and collapsing. the sheet doesn't have to be thick, as all the forces are in the plane of the sheet. Just like on the E53... Need good bolts though (able to withstand high sheering forces), also like on the E53.

upallnight 12-17-2016 07:06 PM

I think the main purpose of the plate was to act as a drip pan for any oil leaks from the oil pan, or transmission. Why else would they add a foam piece on top but to absorb all the oil. After all, when you are trying to sell an upmarket product, you don't want oil leaks on the marble tile floors in the garage.

semcoinc 12-17-2016 07:29 PM

It would appear to this pair of eyes to be both structural as well as functional. Note the comments about tubular steel strength at welds for the structural functionality.

It also functions as a "skid Plate" for any off roading type activities where something could impact and damage the oil pan.

Would have been nice to have something going all the way back or another plate for the transmission pan protection :dunno: :dunno:

Yeah, I would reuse the bolts for this plate application, however, for a bolt such as the crank pulley bolt, I would strongly consider replace that one.

Mike

dannyzabolotny 12-17-2016 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by semcoinc (Post 1096100)
Yeah, I would reuse the bolts for this plate application, however, for a bolt such as the crank pulley bolt, I would strongly consider replace that one.

Anything internal or related to the engine gets new bolts (if required) as a rule of thumb when I work on cars. Whereas secondary parts like the skid plate won't really cause a catastrophic failure if an old bolt breaks, so I don't feel wrong reusing it.

bcredliner 12-17-2016 08:58 PM

The discussion about these bolts never makes sense in my pea brain. It always stems from they cost to much and from there it goes to all the guesses as to what the plate is for and why it is OK to use the bolts again and usually includes something about a BMW ripoff. I have never seen a post by someone that actually knows for sure why BMW states not to reuse the nut/bolts. That seems to get lost in the shuffle and in the end most reuse the bolts.

I think it is clear the plate is a functional contribution to the integrity of the suspension. I think the plate is part of the handling capability, keeping the suspension from folding under in extreme conditions, contributes to the life of some of the moving suspension parts and contributes to safety in a heavy side impact. I never reuse them just because that makes more sense to me.

wpoll 12-17-2016 11:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bcredliner (Post 1096108)
The discussion about these bolts never makes sense in my pea brain. It always stems from they cost to much and from there it goes to all the guesses as to what the plate is for and why it is OK to use the bolts again and usually includes something about a BMW ripoff. I have never seen a post by someone that actually knows for sure why BMW states not to reuse the nut/bolts. That seems to get lost in the shuffle and in the end most reuse the bolts.

I think it is clear the plate is a functional contribution to the integrity of the suspension. I think the plate is part of the handling capability, keeping the suspension from folding under in extreme conditions, contributes to the life of some of the moving suspension parts and contributes to safety in a heavy side impact. I never reuse them just because that makes more sense to me.

:iagree:, totally - right up to the point where I had to stump up $200 to replace them. So I didn't...

OptimusPriM5 12-19-2016 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bcredliner (Post 1096108)
The discussion about these bolts never makes sense in my pea brain. It always stems from they cost to much and from there it goes to all the guesses as to what the plate is for and why it is OK to use the bolts again and usually includes something about a BMW ripoff. I have never seen a post by someone that actually knows for sure why BMW states not to reuse the nut/bolts. That seems to get lost in the shuffle and in the end most reuse the bolts.

I think it is clear the plate is a functional contribution to the integrity of the suspension. I think the plate is part of the handling capability, keeping the suspension from folding under in extreme conditions, contributes to the life of some of the moving suspension parts and contributes to safety in a heavy side impact. I never reuse them just because that makes more sense to me.

Agreed. These threads are getting very old.

upallnight 12-19-2016 11:57 AM

But there are a lot of noobs coming on this forum because now these X's are affordable to a segment of the population that couldn't afford them before.

bcredliner 12-19-2016 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by upallnight (Post 1096230)
But there are a lot of noobs coming on this forum because now these X's are affordable to a segment of the population that couldn't afford them before.

Well then, conclude it does nothing and just use some bailing wire to hold it in place. Might rattle a bit but not going to fall off.

PR1AWRet 12-19-2016 03:07 PM

Grade 8 3/8X2 inches, get (1) 2 ¼ inch one just in case. The 3/8 is a couple of thousandths in diameter smaller but has a higher tensile strength than the 10.9 ones.

6 bolts, 12 washers, and 6 nuts.

These are what used. I have 10K on them and had the stiffener plate off for the transmission rebuild. No problems yet with a heavy foot.

StephenVA 12-19-2016 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OptimusPriM5 (Post 1096219)
Agreed. These threads are getting very old.

And still the conversation goes on and on.........:dunno:

crystalworks 12-19-2016 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StephenVA (Post 1096270)
And still the conversation goes on and on.........:dunno:

x2... reuse if you want (I would)... buy aftermarket bolts... or bend over and buy new OE if you want. :rolleyes:

We've seen plenty of posts of people reusing with no issues and a few where a rattle was detected. I'll be reusing mine, and in the event of a rattle, replace them with aftermarket. Buying $16 bolts sounds way too much like buying $100 HDMI cables to me.

Lamby 12-20-2016 07:39 AM

Its the fact that people are absolutely outraged at the price of these and do not look at the 'Search' function of this site, thinking they are the first and only person to be thinking "Hey, $16 bucks is a lot for a bolt" astounds me. Still, I am possibly guilty of asking the same questions over and over again to my wife.

Bolts, IMO - Use them again, don't over torque them OR if you have more cash than you need... be my guest and buy them. Hell, get them gold plated whilst you are at it. In the uk I ordered all 6 for 37.00GBPs which I thought was expensive so cancelled the order after some investigation.

Merry X5mas to you all.

OptimusPriM5 12-20-2016 08:46 AM

Well theyre not $16 theyre now almost $19 retail.

Wait to see price jump when Trump is sworn in, im sure I heard the Trump protestors saying the prices will double on these bolts.

StephenVA 12-20-2016 11:07 AM

1 Attachment(s)
oh oh, wading into to politics on a car site. Danger, Will Robinson, Danger!
:rofl:

Lamby 12-20-2016 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OptimusPriM5 (Post 1096319)
Well theyre not $16 theyre now almost $19 retail.

Wait to see price jump when Trump is sworn in, im sure I heard the Trump protestors saying the prices will double on these bolts.

Do you think they will make boys and girls hand over the Euro Wagons in exchange for some nice Detroit steel? I do wonder from time to time what life with an X5 is like in the US, okay I know mine was built there, but... maybe I will start up a thread. Better search it first just to check... hahaha :p:

OptimusPriM5 12-20-2016 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StephenVA (Post 1096335)
oh oh, wading into to politics on a car site. Danger, Will Robinson, Danger!
:rofl:

Meh

X5only 12-21-2016 01:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OptimusPriM5 (Post 1096319)
Well theyre not $16 theyre now almost $19 retail.

Wait to see price jump when Trump is sworn in, im sure I heard the Trump protestors saying the prices will double on these bolts.

Oh I see, so they're made in China, humph.

dannyzabolotny 12-21-2016 01:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lamby (Post 1096336)
Do you think they will make boys and girls hand over the Euro Wagons in exchange for some nice Detroit steel? I do wonder from time to time what life with an X5 is like in the US, okay I know mine was built there, but... maybe I will start up a thread. Better search it first just to check... hahaha :p:

Life with an X5 in the US can be summed up in two ways: gas is cheap and you still feel pretty small on the road, especially in Southern states. Even when I had my Range Rover (which was bigger and taller than an X5) I still felt pretty small in comparison to all the massive SUVs and lifted trucks on the road.

Lamby 12-21-2016 05:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dannyzabolotny (Post 1096412)
Life with an X5 in the US can be summed up in two ways: gas is cheap and you still feel pretty small on the road, especially in Southern states. Even when I had my Range Rover (which was bigger and taller than an X5) I still felt pretty small in comparison to all the massive SUVs and lifted trucks on the road.


That makes me laugh, last time in the US I had a drive of the Escalade... I mean... its an aircraft carrier on wheels and the styling was as offensive as a punch in the face... the the interior had AWFUL plastic. But.. I loved driving it. Something about driving the right car in the right place, in Italy, you HAVE to drive a Alfa Romeo for example. In the UK the X5 has a bad image problem, Range Rovers only viewed slightly better but theses are very large cars on our roads. Can't see me sneaking down a country lane in a Escalade with a car coming the other way. I guess what I am trying to say is, for me, right car, right place. If I lived in the US, would I go X5 again?? hmm annoyingly... Because I would be homesick, I would go X5 but I would fantasise over a bigger truck.

Any back on to bolts. At $19 dollars per bolt maybe I should call my contact in China to bang out a 1000 bolts for me and becoming rich quick. Even if I flog them for 1/3 of the price.

Lamby 12-21-2016 05:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dannyzabolotny (Post 1096412)
Life with an X5 in the US can be summed up in two ways: gas is cheap and you still feel pretty small on the road, especially in Southern states. Even when I had my Range Rover (which was bigger and taller than an X5) I still felt pretty small in comparison to all the massive SUVs and lifted trucks on the road.


That makes me laugh, last time in the US I had a drive of the Escalade... I mean... its an aircraft carrier on wheels and the styling was as offensive as a punch in the face... the the interior had AWFUL plastic. But.. I loved driving it. Something about driving the right car in the right place, in Italy, you HAVE to drive a Alfa Romeo for example. In the UK the X5 has a bad image problem, Range Rovers only viewed slightly better but theses are very large cars on our roads. Can't see me sneaking down a country lane in a Escalade with a car coming the other way. I guess what I am trying to say is, for me, right car, right place. If I lived in the US, would I go X5 again?? hmm annoyingly... Because I would be homesick, I would go X5 but I would fantasise over a bigger truck.

Any back on to bolts. At $19 dollars per bolt maybe I should call my contact in China to bang out a 1000 bolts for me and becoming rich quick. Even if I flog them for 1/3 of the price.

Merry X5mas!

Supra 01-09-2019 11:59 AM

OK...I am not bgoing to ask if I should or shouldnt use these re-use these bolts :) but I do have a question relating to them.

How the heck do you get access to the nuts on the upper side when putting them back? I really struggled to get them out and at the weekend am planning to re-assemble the car after swapping the turbo and frankly am dreading getting access to all the nuts, a couple are accessable via the wheel arch but not all.

Lamby 01-09-2019 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Supra (Post 1151564)
OK...I am not bgoing to ask if I should or shouldnt use these re-use these bolts :) but I do have a question relating to them.

How the heck do you get access to the nuts on the upper side when putting them back? I really struggled to get them out and at the weekend am planning to re-assemble the car after swapping the turbo and frankly am dreading getting access to all the nuts, a couple are accessable via the wheel arch but not all.

Yes, they are a total pain. So, the access to them is a bit of a process. First, remove the plastic splash shield infront of the Reinforcement Plate, after that, I removed the side covers around the steering control arms top and bottom, and the inspection panels in the Plate, where you can drain the oil from, etc... So with all this done and out the way, by the ARB you can see the top of the bolts, I used a box spanner on the top side and a regular wrench underneath. Lay on my back under the car I just about found enough access to all of the bolt nuts on the underside. Use a bottle jack to keep the plate in place, remove all bolts then remove jack and lower the plate when you are out of the way ;)

Supra 01-09-2019 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lamby (Post 1151568)
Yes, they are a total pain. So, the access to them is a bit of a process. First, remove the plastic splash shield infront of the Reinforcement Plate, after that, I removed the side covers around the steering control arms top and bottom, and the inspection panels in the Plate, where you can drain the oil from, etc... So with all this done and out the way, by the ARB you can see the top of the bolts, I used a box spanner on the top side and a regular wrench underneath. Lay on my back under the car I just about found enough access to all of the bolt nuts on the underside. Use a bottle jack to keep the plate in place, remove all bolts then remove jack and lower the plate when you are out of the way ;)

Thanks for the promt reply. Yea I saw from the side splash plates you can just about see the one nut from each side. Will let you know how I get on. Car is up nice and high anyhow as the turbo had to come out from underneath and with my belly it had to be high for me to get under. Thanks again.

crystalworks 01-09-2019 12:29 PM

You will get used to the access points. Once you do it can be whipped on and off quickly. I use a flexible ratcheting wrench (spanner to you fine gentlemen) on the nuts and a ratchet (or impact gun) on the bottom. Then a torque wrench for final torque.

Lamby 01-09-2019 12:51 PM

No worries, if the car is nice and high should be easier. if you are getting the turbo out, at the same time I had a look at my Manifold and inspected it, it was cracked and letting gasses past. Ended up getting a cast iron, which is as heavy as hell and cheap as chips (£68.00 with gaskets) I did notice the power was coming in sooner, about 1700RPM rather than about 2500RPM, with the cast iron one. Anyway thats off topic. Good luck! Let us know how you get on.

Supra 01-09-2019 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lamby (Post 1151577)
No worries, if the car is nice and high should be easier. if you are getting the turbo out, at the same time I had a look at my Manifold and inspected it, it was cracked and letting gasses past. Ended up getting a cast iron, which is as heavy as hell and cheap as chips (£68.00 with gaskets) I did notice the power was coming in sooner, about 1700RPM rather than about 2500RPM, with the cast iron one. Anyway thats off topic. Good luck! Let us know how you get on.

Yes I was looking and with the turbo out it looks as though I have a cast log manifold so hopefully should be all good there. Even with the turbo out though its quite hard to see the manifold in any detail eh.

semcoinc 01-09-2019 01:02 PM

What Lamby said :iagree:

Also as a tip for others needing this plate out of the way for any work: remove three bolts and loosen the 4th. Then pivot the plate out of your way (strategically select bolt #4 for your needed clearance).

When finished, pivot plate back into position and reinstall all bolts or change them if you choose to follow the technical guidance (personally, I don't replace).

Mike

wpoll 01-09-2019 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by semcoinc (Post 1151580)
What Lamby said :iagree:

Also as a tip for others needing this plate out of the way for any work: remove three bolts and loosen the 4th. Then pivot the plate out of your way (strategically select bolt #4 for your needed clearance).

When finished, pivot plate back into position and reinstall all bolts or change them if you choose to follow the technical guidance (personally, I don't replace).

Mike

My plate had six bolts.... ;)

mr_robot 01-09-2019 05:31 PM

Has anyone considered getting ARP bolts that match the thread pitch and length?

Those would be a one time purchase a reusable. The crank bolt is the same on my Mustang (although how often do you remove your crank, ha but I had to it 2-3 times already! lol) and I purchased ARP which can be torqued down 3-4 times before replacing it.

mr_robot 01-09-2019 05:32 PM

Has anyone considered getting ARP bolts that match the thread pitch and length?

Those would be a one time purchase and reusable. The crank bolt is the same TTY on my Mustang (although how often do you remove your crank, ha but I had to it 2-3 times already! lol) and I purchased ARP which can be torqued down 3-4 times before replacing it.

bcredliner 01-09-2019 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Supra (Post 1151564)
OK...I am not bgoing to ask if I should or shouldnt use these re-use these bolts :) but I do have a question relating to them.

How the heck do you get access to the nuts on the upper side when putting them back? I really struggled to get them out and at the weekend am planning to re-assemble the car after swapping the turbo and frankly am dreading getting access to all the nuts, a couple are accessable via the wheel arch but not all.

Don't know year and model so not sure I can help but I have never had fun removing or installing the bolts. I recommend to expect it to frustrating and result in a few cuts on your hands and if you don't be happy.

Supra 01-10-2019 04:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bcredliner (Post 1151633)
Don't know year and model so not sure I can help but I have never had fun removing or installing the bolts. I recommend to expect it to frustrating and result in a few cuts on your hands and if you don't be happy.

Thanks. It's a 2003 M57 3litre diesel. Looking at various sites I would say the plate fixings are the same between models. Hoping for not too many injuries, always seem to be turning up for work on a Monday with cuts and bruises from cars, takes me the whole working week to get over them ready for the next round the following weekend.

SlickGT1 01-10-2019 09:37 AM

I noticed that if I get on it with my impact, that I don’t need to really hold the nuts with anything. 7/10 times once it breaks loose, the impact get it out faster than the nut unsticks from frame.

bcredliner 01-10-2019 12:05 PM

I've always been able to get a thin open end, a box wrench or a couple of fingers on the nuts and do the same to install the bolts. I use a ratchet on the bolt side. It's one of those tasks that I take a bunch of wrenches under the X5 but I always have to go back to my tool box for the right one. Before I start I say-- this to will pass.

upallnight 01-10-2019 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bcredliner (Post 1151674)
I've always been able to get a thin open end, a box wrench or a couple of fingers on the nuts and do the same to install the bolts. I use a ratchet on the bolt side. It's one of those tasks that I take a bunch of wrenches under the X5 but I always have to go back to my tool box for the right one. Before I start I say-- this to will pass.

16MM socket, or wrench will fit the nut.

mr_robot 01-10-2019 01:30 PM

OEM uses M10x55, wonder if these would work, available in Chromoly and SS.

I believe you need 6 of them:

https://arp-bolts.com/kits/ARPkit-de...?RecordID=2946

oldskewel 01-10-2019 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr_robot (Post 1151688)
OEM uses M10x55, wonder if these would work, available in Chromoly and SS.

I believe you need 6 of them:

https://arp-bolts.com/kits/ARPkit-de...?RecordID=2946

Yes, there are 6. Consider new nuts too if getting new bolts. Stainless steel would typically not have the required strength that the OE Class 10.9 have. I re-use mine, carefully.

Those look good. If I were to replace mine, I'd prefer those over the BMW $$$ ones, even if as a matter of principle vs. BMW marketing.

Here are the specs on the BMW bolts, so you can see exactly how they differ:
Threads, rating: M10 - 1.5 x 55mm, class 10.9.
bolts: 16mm hex head with captive flat washer. BMW PN: 31101096987
nuts: 16mm hex nut with flange. BMW PN: 33306760587

First thing to know is that even the magic BMW ones are regular high strength bolts. Not blessed by the Pope or anything. Not specially made for the stiffening plate. They are just bolts and nuts as specified above there.

I see those ARP ones are 5mm longer. Should not be a problem, especially if you add a washer to make up for the fact that the ARP ones don't have one.

The ARP ones don't specify Class 10.9, which I consider weird. Class 10.9 means something, and 10.9 will be on the head of the bolt and on the face of the nut. The torque value they specify does suggest it would be strong enough. Maybe they are Class 10.9, and it is marked on the bolts, but ARP does not advertise it, which like I say seems weird.

ARP specifies 73.2 Nm as the torque value
Bentley manual, p.020-4 says for a Class 10.9 M10, torque to 66 Nm
The stiffening plate bolts (those bolts for that application) say 56 Nm + 90*

The torque spec for this application relies on some yield, and if you do have a Class 10.9 bolt, the plastic deformation / work hardening can be assumed to be as the design engineers intended. But if you now use a stronger bolt (torque spec on these ARPs is 10% higher ; and the torque spec is typically chosen based on yield = when plastic deformation begins), going to 56 Nm and then doing the 90* beyond that will give a different result.

So I think a regular Class 10.9 bolt would be better for this application - yes those should be easy to get. No doubts about anything if getting non-BMW bolts that meet the above spec.

And if using the ARP ones, I would torque to the 73 Nm bolt spec and no further, and expect that to be just fine. And that is similar to what I do when re-using my BMW bolts - I torque to 66 Nm, without doing the extra angle.

bcredliner 01-10-2019 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by upallnight (Post 1151679)
16MM socket, or wrench will fit the nut.

Not about the size, it is one of those tasks because not every wrench will fit in the tight spaces and I seldom have the right one with me the first time. It is one of those DIY will happen if you are under the vehicle.

upallnight 01-11-2019 10:12 AM

Get a set of stubby gear wrench.

crystalworks 01-11-2019 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by upallnight (Post 1151781)
Get a set of stubby gear wrench.

That, or a flexi-head gear wrench does the job pretty easily. 16mm doesn't come in all sets though so have to check.

bcredliner 01-11-2019 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by upallnight (Post 1151781)
Get a set of stubby gear wrench.

It's not that I don't have the right wrench it is that I don't remember which one it was. One of those age things.

mr_robot 01-23-2019 11:32 PM

Going to be doing the front diff fluid so the plate is coming off.

If reusing the stock bolts what are you guys torquing them down too?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Attacking Mid 01-23-2019 11:57 PM

Being new to the e53 world, I must add... the e83 (X3) has four stiffener bolts and the nuts are captive. I was disgusted when I went to remove the plate on my e53!

AM.

Lamby 01-24-2019 06:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr_robot (Post 1153006)
Going to be doing the front diff fluid so the plate is coming off.

If reusing the stock bolts what are you guys torquing them down too?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

I wouldn't bother removing the stiffening plate underneath. On the US drivers side (my passenger side) if you take the wheel off, then the plastic shroud covers top and bottom of the CV then you can shine a torch in and you will see the diff, the hex bolt at the top is the fill and the one at the bottom is drain, I always check I can get the top fill nut out before I undo the drain... I had issue with seized fill bolts before... not fun when you already drained. Then to fill use a garden hose and funnel or I use an oil suction gun, and suck it out of the oil bottle then fill to the point it starts to run out and do everything up.

Just my way of doing it... access isnt to bad either but depends on your engine. Mine is the 3.0 Diesel Turbo.

Attacking Mid 01-24-2019 07:09 AM

Here are replacement bolts for $2.69 each if you want to replace: https://www.fastenal.com/products/details/11115685?r=~%7Ccategoryl1:%22600000%20Fasteners%22 %7C~%20~%7Ccategoryl2:%22600001%20Bolts%22%7C~%20~ %7Ccategoryl3:%22600015%20Flange%20Bolts%22%7C~%20 ~%7Csattr01:%5EMetric$%7C~%20~%7Csattr06:%5E%22Cla ss%2010.9%22$%7C~%20~%7Csattr02:%5EM10-1.5$%7C~%20~%7Csattr03:%5E55mm$%7C~

AM.

crystalworks 01-24-2019 11:22 AM

Better than BMW prices for sure. Thanks for that. Should help those who want to replace them but don't due to cost. :thumbup:

bcredliner 01-24-2019 12:48 PM

Depending on what one is doing you can remove all bolts except one and then swing the plate out of the way instead of completely removing it. Especially helpful if working alone.

Attacking Mid 01-28-2019 03:40 PM

I just ordered a dozen new M10x1.5 - 60mm flange bolts in grade 10.9 (5mm longer than OE) and a dozen flange nuts from Bolt Depot. I found their prices significantly cheaper than Fastenal that I previously referenced. I needed a couple M10 130mm bolts for my junkyard trailer hitch and that led me to needing to place an order.

The bolts are $0.93 and the nuts are $0.21. Shipping is reasonable - I had several other things and the shipping was $6.80 total.

https://www.boltdepot.com/Product-De...?product=17513

If you're feeling guilty about re-using your $20 BMW bolts, this would be a much more economical alternative.

AM.

wpoll 01-28-2019 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Attacking Mid (Post 1153514)
I just ordered a dozen new M10x1.5 - 60mm flange bolts in grade 10.9 (5mm longer than OE) and a dozen flange nuts from Bolt Depot. I found their prices significantly cheaper than Fastenal that I previously referenced. I needed a couple M10 130mm bolts for my junkyard trailer hitch and that led me to needing to place an order.

The bolts are $0.93 and the nuts are $0.21. Shipping is reasonable - I had several other things and the shipping was $6.80 total.

https://www.boltdepot.com/Product-De...?product=17513

If you're feeling guilty about re-using your $20 BMW bolts, this would be a much more economical alternative.

AM.

Hopefully there is enough thread length on these. What has put me off using these 60mm long versions in the past is the only ones I can get locally don't have enough thread length for the front two locations - the four rear locations are fine. :dunno:

Attacking Mid 01-28-2019 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wpoll (Post 1153515)
Hopefully there is enough thread length on these. What has put me off using these 60mm long versions in the past is the only ones I can get locally don't have enough thread length for the front two locations - the four rear locations are fine. :dunno:

Maybe I'll be ordering those 55mm ones from Fastenal afterall? I'll try these new bolts next time I take the stiffener plate off and report back on this thread. However, I'm hoping it'll be a while before I need to take it back off!

AM.

dpotapov 01-19-2020 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wpoll (Post 1153515)
Hopefully there is enough thread length on these. What has put me off using these 60mm long versions in the past is the only ones I can get locally don't have enough thread length for the front two locations - the four rear locations are fine. :dunno:




How about adding a washer or two for the front locations


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