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AWR-fix: e53 Fuel pump / siphon pump details
after spending 20-30 hours searching every corner of the web to find out 'what the hell are all these parts' and why my x5 showed less than 1L of gas on the right tank and only went up to 1.1L after I made the recommended fix.
This is a detailed description, in most cases, the descriptions are verbatim or paraphrased from bmw technical manuals. The right-hand side of the saddle-shaped fuel tank has a surge chamber with the electric fuel delivery pump.the 'surge chamber' is a 'well' that contains about 5L of fuel. This well is clearly visible in the attached photo below. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...f082db1b75.jpg The little 'foot' at the left of the photo (right side of tank) is literally where every drop of fuel your x5 consumes comes from. Many bmw fuel tanks are 'saddle' type tanks but the x5 tank does not really qualify. If you look closely at the photo, the x5 tank is closer to the shape of an old fashioned carpenter's folding ruler, that has been twisted 90 degrees about 40% up, or maybe better: a couple of 2x6 'lego' blocks attached at right angles on the corner, with a 1x2 on the bottom of the right side for the 'foot' or the 'well'. This has a few implications:
Fuel is transferred from the left-hand side of the fuel tank to the surge chamber by the suction jet pump integrated in the tank expansion line. Both suction jet pumps are driven by the fuel return line. The pressure relief valve controls the pressure required for the suction jet pumps to operate.Think of the pressure relief valve as a pressure regulator; if the return line is supplying too much pressure, or a jet gets plugged, the return fuel will vent into the surge chamber; sadly this won't get you more than 30-40 miles, but at least you will be able to consume the gas from the surge chamber and not have the system simply suck the reserve tank dry and put the gas on the left side of the tank. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...02c0987c46.jpg The fuel is fed from the electric fuel delivery pump to the fuel rail via the fuel feed line and the fuel filter. Excess fuel is diverted back to the fuel tank by the pressure regulator fitted to the fuel rail and the fuel return line.The fuel filter and pressure regulator are 'one in the same' on the x5. The fuel from the surge chamber (aka reserve tank) is pumped to the fuel filter/regulator and a constant stream of fuel comes back to the LEFT side of the tank. The fuel level is measured by a lever-type sensor on each side of the fuel tank. The right-hand lever-type sensor is integrated into the fuel delivery unit. The left-hand lever-type sensor is located in the left-hand sensor unit. The actual fuel level in the tank is determined by linking the ohm values of the left and right-hand lever-type sensorsSince the right side sender float goes down into the reserve tank (which holds 5L) but it reads 1.4L when full on my wife's car when operating properly (meaning the surge tank is overflowing over 'the hump' back to the left side of the tank). The low fuel light comes on when the calculated amount remaining is 8L or 10L of gas. There is some fuel (about a gallon) that remains when the computer measures 0.0L of gas. This will net you about 15-20 miles range past zero miles DTE. Pressure regulator: 3.5 bar (S62: 5 bar)Ok that's a new tidbit of info; the suction pumps take 1 to 1.3bar of pressure to operate. I'm quite sure that info will help somebody out if they can only figure out how to connect a gauge; actually just a 't' adapter at the top of the left sender unit should work. Here's a more photorealistic drawing of the fuel pump including the jet siphon pump. Note that the drawing indicates that the siphon pressure relief valve is actually connected to the electric pump but I'm not sure what variant of x5 does that. Not mine. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...411b30fb79.jpg I've attached a diagram of what the tank more or less looks like from the back view; it's not really to scale, the 'well' on the right side is not nearly as big relative to the left body of the tank, but it's FAR closer to realty than any of the 'saddle type' tank diagrams i've almost universally seen. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...b65fdbd7ab.jpg (i'm not sure if the euro models or diesel especially may have a different tank, i can only go with the e53 gas like I have and that I exclusively see when searching for a part online). I'm marked up a diagram of the fuel pumps including the jet suction pumps; i put red arrows to indicate the flow of fuel, the dashed red indicates the direction of fuel if the pressure gets to high in the return line and vents directly to the reserve tank. When i repaired my wife's fuel supply system recently, I replaced the fuel pump first, afterwards I expected the fuel level in the right tank to rise since every single (of dozens) of articles online insisted that the jet pumps push the gas from the left side to the right side and that would make the left side drained and the right side hold the fuel. This simply didn't happen and it's obvious why; the top of the reserve tank is flush with the 'plateau' between the left and right chamber so the 'right side' holds NO FUEL once the level of the gas gets below the plateau between the two sides. That being said, i noticed that when my 'left side' got below about 27L of gas, the right side even with the new pump would't read even 1L of gas.. it stuck at 0.9L for 20 miles or so (where i maybe had 150miles to empty). it was 0F outside when i needed to work on the truck so i 'bet on' it would not be fuel filter/regulator and would be something to do with the suction pump system. I was correct; I found that the o-ring that seals the connection from the sender unit to the inlet of the suction jet pumps was totally dislodged from the groove; gas was obviously rushing around the seal and weakening the pressure. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...e4a93fcf85.jpg https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...ab9629d916.jpg From this knowledge I determined that the reason i could use some (maybe half) of the fuel from the left side was that the weight of the fuel aided the pressure at the inlet of the jet pump 'foot'; once the depth of the fuel was too shallow, it couldn't suck the fuel up and over, and i would run out of gas with maybe 15-20L of gas remaining in the tank. I fixed the o-ring and started the car; the 0.9L of gas reading of the surge tank became 1.1L. At this time, i was still under the impression the sides were split and the value should grow on the right side, so i lifted the sender unit up on the left side while the car was running and imagine my surprise when gas was spraying out like a shower from the 'unlisted seal' that i've marked up on the diagram; where the hoses to the jet pump feet are attached; there was no o-ring or any type of seal and fuel was spraying out like a solid morning pee.. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...98bbd4ec97.jpg The left side of this pic (of the o-ring properly in place) also shows the mangled clip that holds the hoses to the jet pump feet it took me a couple hours to re-engineer the part to get some o-rings in there and tie the thing back together because the 'only attach once' clips were not planning on holding very long. Once i got it back together with o-ring seal at the 'unlisted' joint, started up and checked test 6; the value jumped from 1.1 to 1.4L. Time for a test drive. Drove for about an hour and got the level down to below an eighth of a tank; got DTE to about half of the previous record. I haven't had a chance to calibrate the fuel gauge by which I mean, put a portable tank in the boot and go for a drive down to single digits DTE before putting in some gas and comparing to mfg. spec. I've read hundreds and hundreds of posts of bmw owners with siphon related symptoms and with mine having a leak at a factory seam that has no seal, i'm sensing 'design defect'; people end up replacing a $100 part which is perfectly functional other than there is no 50¢ o-ring. It appears the seal is supposed to be a "flare" like used in natural gas connections however it's made from plastic and no way to tighten. It was tragically difficult to get o-rings into that seal, if i ever have to do again, i will use a piece of rubber tube around the OUTSIDE of the seal and a hose-clamp. I have extreme confidence that people are replacing the whole sender unit or jet pump assembly when they probably just need a seal. Some possible failure points if your jet pumps aren't working: clogged venturi valve; some people have used fuel system cleaner to get them cleaned out, some people have used 'a pipe cleaner'; if one is working and one isn't you could make some determinations by driving to a 'nose up' or 'nose down' attitude and see what happens with fuel test 6. disconnected line to one of the jet pumps. pressure relief valve (this is on the right side of tank) weak main pump pressure regulator (which is in the fuel filter) A couple pretty easy checks you can 'poor man mechanic' try (no special tools needed). Start with about 1/4 tank of gas then: pull the right side pump out an inch or so, use mirror if needed and of course a flashlight and observe the jet pump outlets and the pressure relief valve. gas should be pumping like crazy out of the two outlet hoses and NOT a drop from the pressure relief valve. pull the left side sender out an inch or so and observe the seals and connection at the interface from the hoses to the sender unit (that's where my failures were) put a 't' connector in and get some pressure readings. 1 to 1.3bar on the return line (l'll leave it to you to do the math if your gauge is psi). I've put this other places but deserves mention logically here as well. There are some myths about gas and running low on the gauge, they are all false, but the big ones are here: Don't run below a quarter tank, the pump is cooled by being submerged and won't be cooled properly.absolutely false; on the bmw x5, since the pump is in the surge chamber (aka reserve tank), it will be submerged until the car gets to about 2 or 3L of gas, in addition, any time you get below about a half a tank, the car is always using 'the last 5L of gas' it literally means once you get below half a tank, the car is operating at 1/12 of a tank always (until the low fuel light comes on). (At which point it will happily operate down to less than 1/30 of a tank) Don't run below a quarter tank; it will increase the relative amount of sediment that also can cause problems for the fuel system.absolutely false. When i opened up the tank of my wife's car with 131313 miles (should I be surprised it had bad luck)? There was more dirt in the tank from me opening the tank than the 400 fill-ups that preceded my work. (quite literally; i knocked a crumb of dirt in there and it was the only thing i saw in the crystal clear gas). On the left side of the tank there is a 'dent' to align the sender unit and because gas stays there permanently there was a little dirt in there; maybe about 0.2g worth, the rest of the tank stays perfectly clean because it's constantly swirled to shake up any dirt that could settle, the jet pumps move the fuel to the surge tank and unless the dirt is too big to fit through the pre-screen filter at the foot of the pump that dirt will end up in the fuel filter; which is ginormous; literally 50-100x the size of the 'old school' inline fuel filters of yore. Don't use less than 1/4 tank when it's cold; the water in the gas will find a low spot and freeze.You would have to have 'powerball' level of bad luck to get crappy enough gas for this to happen. I run my car down to single digit DTE about 3-4 times per year and it does not matter if the temp outside is below zero, the gas delivery is flawless; I live in the midwest so have to use 'crappy gas' with ethanol which dissolves any water that could be in the tank and burns it up. I really hope that many people can learn what they need to actually solve this problem without the 20-30 hours of research and 10 or so hours in the garage, armed with the knowledge here that is literally a work week worth of research condensed into half an hour, you should be able to diagnose the problem accurately and more than likely fix your problem without even having to replace parts. Learn how to use the hidden test menu, it's the only way to diagnose fuel supply system problems, but know what 'working' looks like; get a control reading when your x5 is operating properly. Be aware that it's likely each x5 may read slightly differently but that your car should be basically the same always. Once the tank is below about half, at this point, all the fuel being consumed is coming from the 8L reserve tank, it's absolutely vital for the siphon jet pumps to be operating or you will run out of gas with 70 miles on the distant to empty. please report back if this thread helped you solve your 'sucking problem'. -awr |
Great post. :)
To answer your question about when does the low fuel warning light comes on...it depends on which engine you have. The data sent to the IKE (instrument cluster) by the fuel level sensors...determines when the low fuel level light comes on. TEST 6 can be used to verify your particular BMW...when the low fuel level light/warning comes on...then open TEST 6 and look at the reading of the right fuel level sensor...it should be either 8 liters (I6 engine) or 10 liters (V8 engines). This is your "reserve" amount which is mentioned in the owners manual: |
e53 Fuel Supply Detailed (fuel pump / siphon pump diagnostic help)
I'm just curious if the test six is compensating for the amount of fuel in the surge tank. When the float is at the top and there is 8L of gas the test six registers 1.4 in my wife's x5. Mine is not running to do a comparison. I would love to see some test six feedback from others with less than 1/2 tank. I am planning to open the tank and take a look when the low fuel light comes on and then maybe also when the the DTE is "on fumes".
Update: After getting a chance to run the car down to the reserve tank I was able to establish a few things: ➀ the reserve tank holds 5L of gas ➁ only the baseline right tank is included in computations ➂ the light comes on at a calculated 8/10L ➃ that leaves up to a gallon of gas once the calculated amount and DTE are both zero ➄ that means you will have 15-20 miles left when DTE and test six both are 0.0 Sent from my iPhone ➆ using Tapatalk |
Great post! I read it all, comprehended about half, and will re-read to allow for full comprehension. Definitely the most comprehensive post I've read on the fuel system and confirms my personal beliefs on it being perfectly okay to run the tank down. Thanks for taking the time and effort to gather that information.
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e53 Fuel Supply Detailed (fuel pump / siphon pump diagnostic help)
BMW does recommend against actually running out, but you clearly have 11-13L of gas to consume once the light comes on before you are low enough to be a problem.
It is important to run down close to empty occasionally if for no other reason to test the siphon pump. My wife insisted on never getting below 1/4 tank and that masked the defective siphon pump leaving me stranded at 6°F for 3 hours waiting for a tow. I recommend having a gas can with and running down to single digits DTE at least annually. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
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You definitely don't. I feel quite vindicated in my practice of wait for the low fuel light and then look for the next convenient station within about 1gal away. The surge tank system in the x5 is nearly flawless. I've had cars with 1/4 tank not start from being on a sloped driveway, that is impossible with x5! You can use 95% of your fuel tank at any pitch or roll attitude!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
So: pictures!
I made a computer model to diagram a simplified example of the e53 fuel tank. Here is a photo of a real tank: https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...84fc158633.jpg And here is a simplified computer model that is "section cut" from top to bottom showing where the "shore line" is as the level of fuel drops. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...5c42c2c362.png https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...0a6fa96af5.png https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...863b7b7767.png https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...9edde60206.png As you can see, once the fuel level gets below about 40-50%, the little "well" on the left side (right side of car), is separated from the main tank and at that point is entirely dependent on the siphon pump to use *any* of the fuel on the left side (right in model). Depending on the mode of failure you can have fuel starvation at any level of total gas once the level is below the hill. In my case the failure was two fold: weak pump and also leaking o-ring on the siphon pump. If the pressure is weak from the fuel pump the siphon just won't be full power. What happens then is the depth of the gas on the left side helps out the weak pump so you will get some of the fuel from the left side. This is why I advise running your tank down to single digits distance to empty DTE at least a couple times a year. The main pump will usually get weak as the brushes and commutator wear LOOOONG before the pump fails completely. The idea is this: while you are "close to home" and could have somebody bring you a can of gas, run the tank down to bottom, if the fuel pump is starting to soft fail, you may run out of gas at 10-20-50 miles from empty. The main pump would likely operate for 10s of 1000s of miles at this point but you can then do an easy DIY replace of the electric pump for $120 in my case, run the down to single digit test again to confirm fix is good and avoid being stranded with 100miles to go on a freeway halfway across the country on a vacation. |
OutfookinStanding post!
Thank you for your research and exc commentary! GL, mD |
Thanks! (And you're welcome).
It took me so many hours to weed through literally hundreds of Internet postings almost all of which were inaccurate, then finally trial and error on my wife's car to arrive at some hard facts. My original essay may have errors if anybody finds one in there let me know I can update it so that future readers will have the most accurate information. I went through so much grief trying to find actual hard facts that I wanted to save others from the same headache and give them the most accurate and detailed information so they can diagnose and fix their problems more quickly. |
Thanks for all of your work in researching and posting this. It is nice to know how it works and that I can run the E53 down to empty and not worry about my fuel pump getting hot.
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e53 Fuel Supply Detailed (fuel pump / siphon pump diagnostic help)
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You're welcome, I will open up my tank to confirm that '0.0L' and/or DTE 0.0 leaves as suspected approximately 6.6L of fuel. I have a feeling that with the v8 where there is an extra 2L of reserve, they just program the right side sensor to be zero a little higher, maybe exactly the maximum level of the surge tank. UPDATE: so I did get to open up the tank when I was at 1 mile DTE. I siphoned out the gas and weighed it to the gram and determined that the surge tank well holds almost exactly 5L of gas meaning that I have 3.6L of gas remaining once the gauge reads zero the 8L/10L low fuel light is programmed off the 0.0L calculations from the level senders and means the DTE value actually is off by 15-20 miles so you should have no fear in running the tank down to an indicated 0 miles since the extra gallon of gas will keep the pump submerged at any lean angle right down to 0 distance to empty. |
e53 Fuel Supply Detailed (fuel pump / siphon pump diagnostic help)
Today is the day! I finally have the tank down to empty. Technically 3 miles to officially empty. It's about 3 miles home so should work perfectly.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...883ac2b143.jpg Notice 00.0 liters left but 1.4 right. That means the reserve tank is full but the left tank is bone dry. |
My money is on that the reserve tank was full when the low fuel warning came on....which should have been when 8 liters displayed in TEST 6 from the right sensor (and the 3.0 M54 engine). :)
But do post back...this is VERY illuminating. :thumbup: |
Reserve tank full and 6.6L in the left tank still. In other words the reserve tank is not really factored into the fuel gauge or distance to empty.
The verbiage online that I have found suggested the 0.0 on test six would be when the light comes on but that is NOT accurate. I'm about to siphon the gas out and measure how much is in there. My test 6 indicates 0.7L remaining which should mean about 6-8 actual liters based on my guess of the size of the reserve tank and that in my wife's car the reserve tank measures 1.4L at overflow. I could be off 50% in my guess of the size of the surge tank and that's why I'm going to measure it. I will of course report my findings. Anybody then can use test six to know exactly how much fuel they have left in their x5. I don't think the tank is different on the 8 cylinder models I think the program is just different when the light comes on (10L vs 8L). The verbiage from BMW suggests that the 8L/10L are the reserve tank amount. That is almost entirely inaccurate. 1.4L of the reserve tank is included in the 8L but whatever is left is not. Every x5 I suspect will have a different baseline right side overflow value (how many liters when the reserve/surge tank overflows to the main tank). BMW's literature suggests that the surge tank will hold 8/10L but it could be half of that. I plan to find out definitively today. |
e53 Fuel Supply Detailed (fuel pump / siphon pump diagnostic help)
Saga is over. Definitive results!
I siphoned out the gas in the reserve tank and weighed it to the gram. The gauge read 0.7 L but there was 4.3L in the tank or 3.6L left at 0.0L or 0 miles dte. That is just shy of a gallon. I would expect about 15 miles of range before the pump may have problems going around corners etc. (after hitting 0 miles to go). Summary: I drove my car down to 1 mile dte and there was just about 1 gallon in the reserve tank. I am far more confident in driving down to single digits. I got down to about 5 miles to empty before the surge tank was no longer spilling into the main tank. In other words until you are down to FIVE MILES to empty there is no functional difference in the fuel supply system. The tank ended up being a little smaller than I thought: I was guessing 6-8L and it turns out the reserve tank is about exactly 5.0L. My right gauge said their was 0.7L when there was 4.3L. The gauge was dialed in to not include the last 3.6L of gas in my case which is perfect: consider that gas like the last bit of stick deodorant, not meant for consumption just to keep the pump submerged down to 0 miles to empty at any angle of road (or un-road). So "now we know". The surge / reserve tank on the e53 is 5L. The car is absolutely unaware that it has a bigger tank once there is less than about 35L of gas according to the gauges as any more than 5L in the reserve tank will simply spill over to the main tank on the left side. The calibration on my wife's car with the new pump shows 1.4L but every car would likely be different. That said, simple math will tell you what your true reserve is. The computer will estimate 0 miles to go at 8L for 6 cylinder and 10L for 8 cylinder models. |
e53 Fuel Supply Detailed (fuel pump / siphon pump diagnostic help)
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...6498bd89ed.jpg
I carefully added fuel a gallon at a time to determine when the left side is full. It was between 9.5 and 10.0 gallons when the left tank finally filled and started flowing over to the right side. The gauge measured about 8.5gal on the left side but I wasn't on level ground. In any event it's about 9/25 gallons when the siphon pump kicks in right about 1/3 of a tank. My needle is closer to 7/16 After driving 20 minutes: https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...8380e8ad1e.jpg Back to separate left & right tanks and car is operating solely from the reserve tank once the left side is less than about 32L. so, the summary of all the research, and hands-on testing:
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:thumbup:
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Just by chance and not wishing to pay Chicago prices for premium gas I was able to test the siphon pump once more. There is a station in Evanston that sells premium typically 50-70¢ per gallon less than anywhere in Chicagoland. With full confidence that I wouldn't starve the engine I drove down to 14 miles to go so I could save maybe $12-14 on a single fill up.
$14 will net me about 5 gallons and therefore nearly 100 miles on the freeway! |
Nice :thumbup:
I've gone down to the low 20's miles to empty a couple of times to achieve a similar cost saving top off goal. Your research has encouraged me to be a little more fearless if I have to go down to these low range numbers and has greatly improved my understanding of the E53 fuel system. Thanks, Mike |
e53 Fuel Supply Detailed (fuel pump / siphon pump diagnostic help)
Improved *everybody's* understanding. Literally not a single reference online shows accurately how the e53 fuel supply works until this thread. You have to be prepared for the eventual failure of any mission critical component which is why I have roadside assistance. If you use test six as described above to get a baseline reading of your right tank just as the gauge gets below about 32 L you can know 1000s or 10s of 1000s of miles in advance that your fuel pump is failing.
It probably takes a year or two of driving for the fuel pump to slowly wear out and lose the ability to siphon properly. That means at some point your DTE capability will be say 5-10 miles. You may not be able to tell the system it working by simply running down to empty. You also need to check the test six right tank value which should not change from about 32L down to 0L. If the right value drops from 1.4 to 1.1L as the gauge goes from 1/4 tank to empty you can be sure the fuel pump has worn out. Replace it. Also: do a "reality check" using your average mph to get a rough lifespan estimate. Example wife's car I used 22mph and 6000 hours to get 132,000. Amazing since the pump was a few thousand miles into soft failure when replaced at 131400. Use 4000 hours if you use pure gas 6000 if 10% ethanol gas. My car has higher odometer but it has a higher average mph. I will report back when I can record what my cars baseline right tank value is and if it's starting to dip when low dte. |
andrewwynn,
Excellent thread! I read this thread 3 times to get a better understanding of your observation of the E53 tank design and fuel delivery system. This gives me a better understanding of why we ran out of fuel when the DTE on the display read ~40 miles. I was like, WTF, had the X5 towed to the nearest gas station and she fired right up with a fill-up. I was dumbfounded that could happen at 40 miles DTE. Based on your analysis and the mileage on the X5 at the time (about 150K miles) this all makes sense. We haven't gone past 1/4 tank since this event to be on the safe side, but from what I understand, over time, this may not be good enough as well? |
Fire up test six and observe the right tank value. At about 32L left it should stabilize at about 1-2L 320014 for example. In my case at about 25L left the right dropped to 0.9L (250009) and made me very nervous so I would refill. Once the pump motor is weak enough that it won't siphon its at high risk for hard failure and I would replace sooner than later. It's about 4/10 level of difficulty and the topsource copy of the pump from amazon is excellent and has a 1 year warranty.
It is not likely that the siphon pump failed so I would replace the electric pump and verify the baseline right stays constant. That will verify the siphon pump is working. |
When you put in gas at a gas station, where exactly does it go?
In the first photo, I see a hose that could be this port on the top surface, to the left of center, that would seem to need to fill the left side before anything gets to the right side. Could this be true? If so, would it mean that if you run the right tank dry, then you'd need to put in many many gallons before getting any gas over to the right side where it is needed. And without any on the right side, nothing will pump from the electric pump, so the venturi siphon pump will not come into play. ??? |
Actually no, the hoses you see are for venting and don't come into play.
The fuel neck attaches at the bottom of the surge tank exactly where the fuel pump draws suction. That being said: if the siphon is completely out of whack the system will empty the surge tank into the left side and the car will need just like you describe enough gas to completely fill the left side and overflow into the right meaning you would need to have 32L (plus 5L) of gas from bone dry to be "at zero" in the case of total siphon failure. The car will still operate fine if the pump is working down to about 40L but below 40 will be effectively empty tank |
Since this is fuel pump related and I can't find it elsewhere, what is the flow rate of the stock pump at standard rail pressure?
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Like all other things fuel system related there is very little helpful information out there.
I have found a couple references to the e53 fuel pump that say the volume should be just about half a gallon a minute but that will be at no back pressure. I've seen charts of aftermarket pumps but not the oem one for the e53. I also have no idea exactly how you'd measure the flow rate at pressure. Maybe tapped off the pressure tap on the fuel rail? Maybe somebody that has done a live test can chime in. I think that a pressure test on the return line would be the best way to ensure proper flow rate. The theoretical flow @ 3.5bar doesn't mean much but if the return line to the siphon jets maintains 1.0 to 1.3bar than the flow rate is within spec. Excess flow past the pressure regulator drives the pressure on the return line. Loss of volume is what happens when the pump wears out (soft fail). I think I may add a permanent "T" on my return line and leave a pressure gauge on that I can get to as simple as pulling up the back seat (I'm thinking add a glass window so I can see the gauge that would be right above the left tank access) When the pressure drops below 1bar time to replace the main pump almost as simple as that. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
the missing seal seat
Thanks to andrewwynn for excellent guide.
I'd like to return the favor, so I'm adding my engineering results. After replacing the O-ring I got stuck at " Quote:
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I thought there must be another way. After half an our of starring at the seam with no seal, it suddenly hit me, if there is no space for a seal, let's make some space for a seal. And this is how I removed this planned obsolescence using a rasper, I used the same fuel resistant O-ring size 22x2 as the one listed for the other seam: http://www.driftshop.sk/i/x5/fuel1.jpg I have only two hands so taking a pic while rasping wasn't possible, the rasper used was a triange shaped iron thing on the right side. It was eating the plastic quite easily, be carefull not to rasp a hole into the plastic. http://www.driftshop.sk/i/x5/fuel2.jpg http://www.driftshop.sk/i/x5/fuel3.jpg The outer plastic started cracking a bit. As I have no intention of disassembling this $hit again, I made sure it doesn't get spewed out using a hose-clamp: http://www.driftshop.sk/i/x5/fuel4.jpg I have no leaks after assembly, however the sucking jet still doesn't work, so I've ordered new pump as the old one seems to be already damaged as I get longer crank times randomly. Its the second pump gone now, hopefully the last one. |
What a wonderful thread I hadn't found when searching for a slightly (maybe) different issue :
I can't fill my tank fully... The pump stops and won't put anymore in when test 6 shows 78L Last time I filled up, I was a bit below a quarter, it showed : 8.3/ 9.3/ 17.6L After filling up about : 51.1/ 27.0/ 78.1L (its coherent with the 60 liters I put in). 124km (about 80 miiles) later : 36.8/ 19.8/ 56.7L The fuel gauge doesn't go to the top of course. and I haven't pushed it to the bottom (lack of faith). When I bought the car a few months back, it had a fuel gauge that wouldn't work and I replaced the fuel sender (the one without the pump) and found the old one had a broken plate where the floater bar contacts. Do you have an Idea what I should explore or what I should poke at? |
@scourtaud23: It seems like passenger(pump) side sender, I used a pencil eraser tip
to remove dirt settled on the resistor plate. Once it is out, don't forget to measure the resistance of the sender in full and empty position to compare to expected values and check for mechanical issues if is not bent and moves freely when reassembling. |
@ scourt: when below about 30L total the right side should read about 1.2L +/- 0.3L.
Indications are the right sending unit is also defective. You can pull it out and measure the full sweep range of Ω. I forget what the range is but Google is your friend. Too bad I just threw out a spare sending unit. I had a pump fail, replaced under warranty and of course the other parts were fine. The problem can be mechanical, like the float getting stuck, it's not uncommon that the bottom of the pump is not locked into its groove and at an angle. The pump is spring loaded to ensure a tight fit to the bottom but that can backfire because the bottom can get caught on top of the groove and not seat down all the way and that will throw off the fuel measurement. Pull out the pump (starboard side) and it's likely the same problem you found on the port side sender. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro |
@ black: genius to make an o-ring groove. I did exactly the same for my food processor that would send powder out the top when running fine items.
I used a round Mill end bit in my Dremel to make the groove. I used nylon zip ties to hold my siphon pump together once I got the new o-ring in. (not around like your hose clamp) vertically around whatever I could find to hold it tight. If you take out the pump side you may be able to pull the siphon outlet out of the holding clamp and confirm if fuel is coming out in volume. I'm just realizing that as you pointed out there are two seams one with one without a seal. I forgot what I did to seal that extra seam. I think I may have used an axial seal (think washer vs o-ring). There are no moving parts in the siphon pump, it's nearly impossible to have a failure in the foot but the head unit is stupidly assembled with no seal just nylon on nylon so it will fail. You could likely fix with just the hose clamp without even taking apart. Surely with a few wraps of Teflon tape to make it snug first. The "simple test" for proper pump operation is to drive down to single digits distance to empty (DTE). There is zero chance of getting to single digits when the pump is worn out. How are you confining the siphon is not working? Fuel starve when fuel in port side of tank? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro |
FWIW, my IBUS app in my Eonon GA6166 shows my full fuel at 82 liters. It will hang there for a little while before dropping to 81 liters.
Mike |
e53 Fuel Supply Detailed (fuel pump / siphon pump diagnostic help)
Tank has approximately 93L capacity. You are seeing about a 10L error if you see 82L full.
The floats at pinned to the top of the tank for the top 10L so there is no difference in the float reading between 82L and 92/93L. This is also why the fuel gauge doesn't move for the first 100km or so: the needle doesn't move because it's accurately representing the fuel float level. |
I will look into the fuel pump sender unit (maybe tomorrow if I find the time).
I also wondered if backpressure could be built up inside the tank when filling up if the Fuel tank vent valve had failed (I don't know but when I bought the car it was unplugged from the throttle body so I wonder). |
During fueling the filler neck is open to atmosphere. I couldn't find the official values for the sender Ω range. ;-(
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@andrewwynn: I checked the OBC test #6, the left tank shows around 30 litres, the right tank shows 8 litres. Running like this for days.
I was driving with the pump running dry without noticing since I run on LPG, than I got 20-30 second crank times. I replaced the pump but didn't realize the cause. Half a year later LPG broke down and I got a reminder of the issue again when it didn't start one morning with tank showing 1/3. Now second pump got longer crank times (3-8 seconds) so I know it is damaged already plus the return hose is quite soft. Tomorrow I will get and install a brand new pump and recheck the OBC for fuel levels when running. Hopefully that will be the end of story :) I had the issue for 1.5 years every two months or so, thought the tank is venting or water is getting in during winter, been putting $hit to remove water from gasoline without success :D |
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@scourtaud23
You should be able to read sender resistance in ohms in OBC hidden menu #6. Using ohmmeter, my 2000/6 M62B44 senders read 030 ohm at empty and 500 ohms at full. However this might be different for newer models as different forums say 980 ohm is empty and goes down when filling up. But You can compare to your other side sender that You've replaced, left and right are the same. |
If you are forced to use polluted gas like we do (ethanol added) there will be no water in your tank ever. The ethanol absorbs the water. Even without it's not likely a cause of your grief.
The right side sensor should settle on about 1.3L (there will actually be about 5-6L the last 4 or so are purposely below zero so you will never run down to a dry pump even going to zero DTE.) The long crank sounds like a different problem. I would definitely measure the fuel pressure to make sure you are getting full pressure. You could have a failure in the pressure regulator or the one way valve at the pump. Let the pump finish priming before attempting to start. If you have fuel pressure then you could have bad spark or dirty injectors or a could other things. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro |
didn't check DTE, just fuel gauge (was referring to OBC by mistake, I ment instrument cluster, I have no OBC)
Filter with regulator is new, I replaced it five days ago. The first time I was running the fuel pump dry, long cranks started (20-30 seconds), I replaced the fuel pump and long cranks disappeared instantly, so must have been definitely caused by fuel pump. Now the longer cranks started after running the pump dry again. I'm pretty sure siphon is the cause, pump is the consequence. Still trying to fix the cause - 30 litres in left tank, 8 litres in right tank. With a working siphon this should never happen. Will report after new pump. Everything will be new or fixed after the pump, well except for the siphon itself :| |
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As with all other info the IBUS app accesses, it must be coming from the OBC. I have not run a Test 6 check on the IBUS app to see if they both read the same. Maybe will do that when I get a chance and see what Test 6 says and compare to IBUS app. Interesting difference. I have not yet run the IBUS app on a long trip where I run the fuel down near empty. Mike |
So as I was bored and not tired (its midnight in geneva), I decided to go fill up. I started the car in reserve (light on) (wasn't on when I parked a few days ago and quickly turned off).
Values before startup : 7.4/ 2.3 / 9.7L Values after 7km arrived at the pump : 3.4/ 7.4 /10.9L (light off) I went and filled up the car (driving a bit to let it warm up fully (the oil is soo long to get to temp) at the pump I insisted after the first click, got a few more liters in (total 67.14L according to the pump). Values after fill up : 53.9/ 26.6 /80.6L the fuel gage has never been this close to the top, its barely before the 1/1 mark. I'll definitely check the sender unit on the pump side as soon as I can but tomorrow I'll take (using daylight) a ohm reading from the senders so I can compare to bench values. |
I have frequently filled up with 90L (23.5g). The light turns on with 8L if you have 6cyl and 10L if you have 8 cyl.
The gauge will go *past* 1/1 when full. You are definitely not getting proper readings. It's not great to do pump repairs when tank is full but with caution you should be able to pull it off. Run the car with the right tank unplugged to depressurize the fuel line before disconnecting. I read a TSB today that BMW improved the spring tension on the wiper on the sending unit resistor you may be able to retrofit with a stiffer spring and repair the malfunctioning unit. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro |
Of course I will depressurise the system before doing anything. and work outside whenever fuel is openly involved.
I did fill up because I wanted to be able to see the Ohm resistance between full tank and bench full and I can't think of another way to test that. Beyond the fact I might get a bit more fuel on my gloves (made for that), since the tank was never going to be dry, the precautions are the same and the risks the same. And I'm not really going to be making any repais, just testing. I'll report back later on my findings. |
e53 Fuel Supply Detailed (fuel pump / siphon pump diagnostic help)
You may be able to Repair. Clean the resistance bar and add some spring pressure to the wiper and you'll likely fix it.
Having just done 4 or 5 fuel pump swaps, her is a very helpful tip: a bucket to collect lots of paper towel to soak up any gas. Once you are done use a fire pit or grill etc to dispose by fire. No safer way to get rid of a gas soaked rag than controlled burn. We have a fire pit with a screen over the top that works perfectly. I want to add: I'm thrilled to see people being able to take advantage of the unbendable l unbelievable pain in the ass it took to research and put into words this thread. Especially that somebody already resurrected a siphon pump head (seam with no seal: moron move BMW!). Awesome! |
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Some details hoping it'll give you some ideas. First I Ohm tested the gauge in place : 443Ohms Then I took it out and bench tested it : 0Ohms at empty and 500Ohms pinned to the top. But not completely. Pinned to the top, it showed a few readings above 460Ohms before getting to 500 and staying there. I could not detect any dead spots along the scale. I'm not quite sure what to make of this but I think there might be a new sender or at least a new plate (if it can be found) in my future. Do you know if its the same plate as the other side (cheaper assembly, I could swap the plates). It apears its not the original pump since there is a DIY variety screw clamp on the pump hose (inside the tank). Looking inside the tank I saw some kind of "holder" where I thought the pump assembly might be held but it seems bent and is scratched (see photos). Out of curiosity, what should test No6 say when the tank is full? http://img.flat4find.com/images/2017...-06_152243.jpg http://img.flat4find.com/images/2017...-06_151642.jpg http://img.flat4find.com/images/2017...-06_150923.jpg |
e53 Fuel Supply Detailed (fuel pump / siphon pump diagnostic help)
So clearly the pump was diy replaced. I would replace the entire pump assembly I bought for $120 amazon with a 1 yr warranty. Topscope or similar. Now caveat : I actually had to take advantage of the warranty after 10 months but they sent me a new pump I only had to send a photo of the date stamp so take a pic of that when installing and you won't have to remove the pump should it fail.
The pic down into the right tank shows the pressure relief and ONE siphon outlet but there should be TWO. See the diagrams showing the system. I don't know if I have photo looking in but something is amiss there. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...01b312f095.jpg This is what you should see in the right tank. If one of the siphon outlets is looped back to the left tank you will have the symptom of weak pump. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro |
e53 Fuel Supply Detailed (fuel pump / siphon pump diagnostic help)
443 Ω out of 500 that's about 90%. That makes sense related to your gauges. This would happen if the sweep arm is bent or the pump installed crooked.
That little dish that appears to be bent is likely your problem. It is what holds the pump body in the correct position. Notice there is a "pecker" on the port side of the pump that peg leg goes into that cup. Your cup is curled/bent and would make that difficult. Not sure if you can get just that part but if you can pull it off and straighten and re install it will help you get the pump installed straight. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro |
I do think I'm going to replace the whole assembly enventually but I'd still like to vind out why I'm not getting a correct fuel reading as on the bench it works. I will also have to find the correct assembly (with additional heater)
My best guess right now is that the spring loaded part is not seating deep enough in the tank. Is the prong on the sender side of the assembly supposed to be in the siphon pump or next to it or not in contact? I believe the second tube is pressing against the top of the tank, I'm not quite sure to its coming out again to check While it'll be out, I'm thinking of looking you I can separate the bottom part from the top part (the circle that closes the tank) of the assembly so I can see how the bottom part seats in the tank and maybe find the issue. The diagram is not that clear and pictures don't help, is there supposed to be somethng plugged or attached to the pump inside the tank? |
Looking closer you may have the three hoses just not installed correctly. The two hoses with green arrows are the siphon output the other is the pressure relief valve (if that fails the siphon also won't work).
All indications are your pump is crooked or the arm to the float is bent. Try to find a photo of a new pump assembly. The float arm is not raising high enough so it reads low. Bending such that the float starts lower will fix that. You should get max Ω when you put back in. (Including having the cup fixed. Try that first. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro |
Great minds think alike but your vocabulary is better than mine (but its my second language)... I've looked at many pictures and besides the plastic coloring, mine looks right.
I've got a 200miles trip this week end, I'll pull it out again next week when the level is lower and try to take the cup out, once out of the tank, I'm quite sure a heat gun will convince it to get back in shape. With that done I'll try again, the arm does not seem bent so I'm leaning towards the crooked option. |
Do you know how the cup is attached in the fuel tank?
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e53 Fuel Supply Detailed (fuel pump / siphon pump diagnostic help)
I don't see how the pump can be straight with the cup bent.
320°F or 160°C is perfect for reshaping plastic. Take the obc readings before and after. You should see a jump in right side. If you don't you should bend the float arm to compensate. The odd wavering at the top end of the scale makes sense if the end is never reached. Note: you need more than about 30L total or the right side will be empty. |
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I don't. I think it must be press fit. |
Thanks for all the help and for being the one person on the internet that understands bmw fuel tanks, you sir are a great gentleman.
I will get back into the tank when there is less fuel and get to the bottom of this, I'm not letting pieces of plastic defeat me. I'll of course report back once I have made progress (or failed). |
That holding clip is shown as part of the fuel transfer pump in real oem but I don't see included in any product photos I have a small pry bar that is part of drum brake kit that I would use to pry it off. I'm confident it's a ball and socket snap fit situation. Put some vasoline on your hands before putting on nitrile gloves to fend off the inevitable gas on the hands.
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Thanks for the tip, I have a feeling its going to be "fun" getting it off.
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So, having done around 350km since the fill up, I decided to take out the pump and see if I could get the piece out. After going through the getting the pump out joy, the fuel level was just below this piece.
I tried all I could without risking breaking something, it wouldn't come out. So I resorted to bending it in place, it is quite soft so after a few pressures on it, it seems to be in the right shape and angle (at least as good as I can get it while failing to get it out). http://img.flat4find.com/images/2017...-11_152745.jpg I also found the missing black tube, it was free in the tank, and the ending was just before the pump opening on the roof of the tank. I attached it back in place so it now is as it should. As it was, if it tried to transfer fuel, at least a part of it would not be transfered since it would fall on the flat top. So now it looks close to as it should : http://img.flat4find.com/images/2017...-11_153822.jpg I should went and filled up as the tank dipped below a quarter this morning but its was pouring with rain with heavy winds so I gave up and decided I'd go another time Before toying with the pump, Test number 6 read : (the car was not flat, angling to the driver's side) 18.0/ 0.7/ 18.8L After : 18.3/ 1.1/ 19.4L I'll go fill up tomorrow (if I get the chance) and see if it made any difference. |
So I went to fill up, obviously I failed, its exactly as before. I'll take it out one last time to check in case it has moved but I doubt it.
Before filling up : 13,4L (didn't record each side's value) After filling up : 52.2/ 22.6/ 74.8L Is there somewhere in the BMW software where the gauge needs calibration? My thinking is the pump part is not original but the assembly is so maybe someone played with it. |
e53 Fuel Supply Detailed (fuel pump / siphon pump diagnostic help)
I definitely approve of the minor change to the reading of the pump side. 1.1 much better. Key element: engine should be running because there is a constant circulation of gas out of the right side back to the left side and back to the right. So that the right side is also constantly spilling over into the left.
I'm not aware of any form of calibration but I'm curious about the low numbers when full even in my case about 10L shy of actual volume. |
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55.0L/27.0L/82.0L Which, as you say, seems about 10L short on the actual stated capacity. |
@wpoll : with thise readings, where was the needle on the gauge?
The previous time I filled up and insisted after the pump clicked, I got it up to about 80L and and the needle was stil 2 or 3 milimeters below the full mark. I'm going to browse the various software to see if I can find something regarding the gauge calibration or sender calibration since the math from XXX Ohms to XXX Liters has to come from somewhere and I'm quite sure my cluster is the same as an M5 (4.6is) that probably doesn't have the same tank size (quick google say 70L and 78L). I'll have to check in the software if my cluster is original. If my gauge is set up for 82 ou 93L (this still is a mystery) but the sender interpretation is set up for 70 ou 78L, it would explain the slight discrepancy. I'm not going to enjoy this considering the cold but I'll try and look into which module reads the sender units. If it keeps bugging me, I'm going to change the pump and sender assembly but considering the left one is new (3 month old) and straight from BMW and it doesn't register completely full either, I'm perplexed. I did however notice that while driving with test No6 opened, I see fuel going from left to right more "actively" now the tubes are in the correct place. |
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I usually drive about 100kms before the needle starts to move downwards at all. |
Thanks for that, I'm not sure what to make of it but I'm going to investigate a little more to see what I can figure out but right now its part raining and part snowing so I'm going to wait a little. After all my gauge is false but the right way.
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Also, when you go to the 2nd screen of TEST 6...what are your "PHASE" numbers? Is it PHASE 1, PHASE 2, OR PHASE 3? The "phase" number reveals if one of the fuel senders is not working properly. {see description of TEST 6 for "phase" info} http://bimmerboard.com/members/q/ori...ESTS%204-7.jpg {see description of TEST 21 for reset info} http://bimmerboard.com/members/q/ori...TS%2014-21.jpg |
Great call on 21. I don't think I get phase info I have the basic dash but for those with the fancy dash that's helpful.
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Very good call on test 21, didn't do it. When I replaced the left side sender, the resistance plate was broken in half so it went form dead to alive. Second screen of test No6 says PHASE 1.
I'll run it in an hour and report back on the result. Doing a little research, there is quite a bit of coding values taht can be changed with NCS Expert, including tank capacity and reserve size and when the light comes on. This will be my second test after test 21 if no success. |
So after a little bit more testing, still failling...
Test 21 did nothing... I plugged in my computer and looked into INPA > body > cluster/Kombi. There is a screen that shows fuel sender values even though they don't show ohmmeter values but its an analog to digital conversion value. Using this I can see that the right side sender is low. The most annoying part (and this is new since I re-seated the pump), is that this and test 06 show that it sometimes go higher (left turn) and almost to full on the INPA scale before settling back down. Picture was taken parked flat engine running. http://img.flat4find.com/images/2017...-14_222047.jpg I also fired up NCS Expert and looked into the coding of the Kombi (KMBI) and there are quite a few values that can be modified including tank capacity, gauge curve (linear or progressive), reserve size (8 or 10L), ... There are also dampening values for the gauge but I didn't want to play with those so as to not panick the needle and risk damaging it. Mine was correctly coded, using 92L linear and switching to progressive made no change. I can only find 2 plausible explanations since the gauge is able to go higher than its "resting" limit of around 22L. 1: The float is not floating great and has troubles lifting the arm high enough (like foating below the surface) 2: Something else I haven't thought of but that's why I'm here... |
e53 Fuel Supply Detailed (fuel pump / siphon pump diagnostic help)
My bet is a bent float arm. It's too bent it needs to be straighter. I'm betting during one of the install operations, the arm got a little more bent than it should be and when the tank is full the base of the arm is angled down too much. Straighten the arm so the arm will push the wiper higher and it will read higher value.
Your test of a hard left turn goes well with my theory. The gas will never be higher than maybe 1" from the top of the tank when level but a hard right will fill the tank to the roof. How much to straighten that's a tough call. I'm betting the float needs to come down at least 3-5 cm. |
I agree that it would be the logical next step but it doesn't seem to be bent sadly and unless someone would have an old one to measure the angle or distance from the bottom of the pump when low, I don't see how I could adjust it.
http://img.flat4find.com/images/2017...-06_150914.jpg http://img.flat4find.com/images/2017.../5A69A6F-1.jpg |
You are just trying to adjust to different not match something else.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...25dd3d1c97.jpg |
I'll give it a try, I'll need to fill up and set it up so it reads like the right one when in the tank.
I've been wondering how the sending part can seem so new compared to the rest of the assembly since its not available separately... |
Powerful reading on a Saturday morning. Thanks to andrewwynn and everyone who participated in this thread. Very educational.
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So I gave it a try, I bent the sender arm so that it read the same value as the left side sender (parked perfectly flat for a while) and I had filled up recently and only done about 40km since.
When I began the readings were: 414ohm left - 326ohm right. I ended up with : 414ohm left - 414ohm right. I went to fill up again (but couldn't put much fuel) and the gauge almost went to full. Test N06 showed : 50L/ 27L /77L. I must've missed something. At this point, I think I'll have to drive more and see how it reacts and maybe learn to live with it. The left sender is 2 months old from BMW so I'd like to believe it. |
You have to re run 21 test but note that mine read 55/27/82 when full to max. Showing 5Lb more on the left but 10L less than capacity. Mine does show the needle past full when full though.
The tweak did exactly what it was supposed to do: get both senders to read the same when full. Is seems like they are both reading low like they should be 450 Ω. You you can put a 25 Ω resistor in series but that will make the low end read higher. Since there is at least 5L of gas after zero I think that may be preferable but I think you can now tweak the settings with software and achieve what you want. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro |
Looking at the photo of the tank, the top of the tank is symertrical so adding an offset of say 5L per side if you can in software to get test six to read closer to actual capacity may do what you want.
I never reset mine after replacing the pump recently and I'm about to fill the tank for a 3 hour drive home tomorrow. I will report back if I get different values after my fill up post 21 reset. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro |
I'll re-run test 21 to be sure but considering the right one went directly to 27 after fill up (and was at 26.8 when I got home 15km later) and the left one wasn't touched since I ran test 21 2 days ago, I doubt I'll get the correct value. Worth a try.
I was thinking tomorrow I might open up the covers again an see if the values are still the same since I fllled up. Just to be clear when I did the adjustments, I wasn't completely full, just close to full. I'm curious to see your results. |
Just found this thread. Many thanks Andrewwynn. One thing I always do to monitor fuel efficiency I reset the trip odometer each time I fill up. With your research I’m going to go even further after the warnings
Garage: E53 4.4i M62 born 2003-03-04 [SOLD] E53 4.8iS N62s born 2006-03-16 E90 325i N52 born 2006-03-28 [TOTALED] F30 328i N20 born 2012-09-06 |
@xb: you do need to do the "DTE to zero" test periodically. But once to confirm the car will drive to single digits (under controled circumstances such as not on the way to the airport and have some gas in a can or a friend to call).
Once you've verified you can use all your gas you should be good in case of emergency to -15 miles or so. (15 miles past zero). That will vary car to car. Make sure your test six shows about 1.2 to 1.5L once the right side is in waterfall mode (constantly spilling over into the left side). Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro |
It occurred to me that the fuel float will get "pinned to the ceiling" when the fuel is closer than 10-15mm from the top. That explains pretty easy why the measurement will max out at 82L. Damn laws of physics keep messing with us. maybe they could use a pressure gauge at the bottom to measure depth to get top to bottom reading (similar to plane altimeter)
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This 82L number corresponds to what my IBUS app indicates as fuel level when I totally top off my tank.
Mike |
I haven't driven much since the I changed the float arm angle, but I'll be filling up from two thirds (displayed) and see how the numbers match up.
In any case I think I'll still change the whole assembly at some point in the coming months to play it safe considering my future plans with the car |
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https://www.dropbox.com/s/f2uqckbs8g..._4236.MOV?dl=0 I recorded fueling with OBC #6 turned on. Maxed out at 82L while the pump clearly showed I filled up 24gal. Could there be something else, I am surprised an over engineered German car will allow this much discrepancy https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...952a4a3ef7.jpg https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...9232521c27.jpg https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...37deae0091.jpg |
My ibus indicates 82l fuel, when I top of the tank.
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e53 Fuel Supply Detailed (fuel pump / siphon pump diagnostic help)
It actually makes sense. Watch the dial as you drive. The first 10L of consumption doesn't move the gauge. In other words the top 10L is "off scale". I think the car assumes you fill it up whenever the gauge doesn't bobble from 82L.
It would take some alien tech to avoid the problem. I'll draw a diagram to help explain: https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...35746b6d92.jpg Laws of physics dictate when you have a float some portion will be above and some below the level of the fluid. When the float is at the bottom it is possible to more or less be able to measure the bottom as there is zero liquid and the float no longer does. However web at the top, the float will hit the top of the container and stop rising for the last cm or so. That works out to about exactly 10L of fuel. It's crazy that this has only been discovered in 2017! Silly "everybody on planet Earth" for assuming that the gauge on our cars went from 0-100% when they really go from about 5 to 92%. "Everybody" knows that the first 50-80 miles the fuel gauge doesn't move. Now pretty much exclusively the few people to read this thread and the actual designers of the fuel gauges know why. The float is pinned to the top of the tank from about 92 to 82L in the case of the E53. The fuel gauge will be pinned at 1/1 until you consume about 10L at that point the computer will read 82 L and dropping and the needle will start to drop. I'm not aware of any other sensor to confirm the tank is actually full so if you only filled to 84L I'm pretty sure the computer will over estimate your range and make an abrupt adjustment when the floats are no longer pinned to the top. My test showed that my computer saw 82.0L for the first 60 miles or so then finally started to drop absolutely confirming what I've described above. The tank could be made with a bump in the top to make room for the float but that would reduce the capacity of the tank by lowering every place besides the float bump. It's a reasonable trade off and every car on Earth does the same thing just the 0.001% club now knows why. |
I will try to fill it up today, and take it for a drive to see how long it stays on 82l
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Just to se iff the missing 10l is the top of the fuel tank
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It will absolutely a guarantee! What you will see if you have test six live is that when you get to about 8-9L consumed, the levels will bobble around when you take hills or curves but still settle to 82.0L.
Once you get to more than 10L consumed the test six total will finally start to drop. The computer is smart enough to assume you filled up so the averages and DTE still calculate based on 92L it doesn't wait until you get to actual 82L to start counting down. Everybody should check their test six both when full and empty periodically. Apparently when I replaced my pump recently I put it in crooked or something because my right sender only goes down to 5L or so throwing off my DTE. (it shows about 3.5L more than it should). I will be exploring the situation using a fiber optic camera from the left tank opening to determine what I goofed to share with the group. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro |
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Actually, if I bothered to switch to miles, I'm sure it would show a value I could see decrease right from the first drop of fuel. 1,300kms is about 808 miles, well less than the maximum Range (DTE) value of "999". ;) |
e53 Fuel Supply Detailed (fuel pump / siphon pump diagnostic help)
@andrew: I agree with your theory. I have always noticed how the needle does not move for a while after topoff. I bet Rental car companies save lots of money because of that.
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The rental car company loses out also: I have always filled until the needle matches eg 1/1 = 92% full. Poor "next guy" who actually tops off :-)
No longer a "theory" scientifically tested and proven. A "92L tank" that shows 82L when full that maintains 82.0L until 10L is consumed there is one possibility. The top 10L is off-scale and not measured by the gauge. Several people have already corroborated my testing it's now a known fact. The precision is the only question. I haver "rounded" to 10L. The tank may be 93-94L and the unlisted amount could be 11-12L. I've seen 93 or 94L but that probably includes the 3.6L or so below the gauge as well so I like to use 92L for "full" 10L for the unmeasured amount above 82L 1.4L for the "topped off" surge tank that holds about 5L. That leaves almost exactly 1 gallon (3.6L) that is the true reserve amount that is remaining when the gauge reads 0.0L of gas. That 1 gallon is more than double what is needed to keep the pump submerged and cooled as well as enough to keep the pump submerged at any angle the car can drive without tipping over. It's a genius solution I've not seen in any other car. Again "in the 0.001% club" of you've read this thread, not one person in 10,000 groks the fuel supply system in the x5. I spent over 20-25 hours researching this as I mentioned in the first post: 100% of the dozens of pages I found Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro |
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How are you comparing the mpg calculation by the obc vs manual computation?
It could exactly be why though if the computer assumes you have 10L more than the gauge at fill up but you actually have 12L more for example. Do you "top off" when filling? (Bad practice for a few reasons especially in states where the pumps vaccum up the fumes as you pump). You could be throwing off the math. Your gauges also could be reading off: you should see 82L full and 1.4L or so right tank when left is empty and you should get to 0.0L right tank when you get to 0.0 DTE. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro |
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I do top off as I have to. When filling the pump generally cuts off after I've only put anywhere from 12 to 16 gallons in. I know I need more than that as the tank is nearly empty. At least by the gauge. Comparing what goes into the tank seems to be comparable to what I would expect based on the tank capacity. |
It would be interesting to see if/how far and where the vent extends into the tank.
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A special thank you to andrewwynn for taking the time to post all of this info. I wound up dead on the side of the road myself, replaced the fuel pump only to find my sucking jet pump (That is some name....) was actually leaking all the gas back into the left side. I would not have known what to look for if it was not for this post. I live outside Chicago and do not have a heated garage so I can sympathize with you working in the freezing temps. Last weekend's warm up was well received!
My X5 has 227k miles on it now with the original parts so I am just going to replace the level sender and jet pump with new at this point. That combined with a fuel filter/pressure regulator and the new pump should last me to my 300k+ goal without having to worry about it breaking. I just hope I can get the parts while the weather is still "warm". Sorry to hear that other people are having failures sooner then I did. I think this design was a little over the top and the parts do feel cheap to me but they appear to work ok. |
@ spun: thanks for the feedback.
After evaluating the second sucking jet pump with the exact same failure it's clearly a design flaw but it tends to fail about 5-7,000 hours so should get to 130-230,000 miles (big range of average mph). When replacing, strengthen the o-ring connection so it is a bit stronger. I may disassemle my left side today and if so, I may install a screw. If you drill a 7/64 hole into plastic it may as well be tapped for use with a 3mm metal screw. Since it won't be a problem if a small amount of gas drips back into the tank it's not critical if it leaked but it should be sealed as well. |
If you put in a backup-ring the o-ring will not get pushed out like that. It almost looks like it was designed to have a backup ring installed and they forgot to put it in at the factory.
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e53 Fuel Supply Detailed (fuel pump / siphon pump diagnostic help)
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I think basically exactly the top of the tank (not the filler neck). Gas in the filler neck may end up in the charcoal filter (why I don't recommend filling to the top of the neck). I run the pump full speed until auto off then ONE time at 1/3 to 1/2 speed. Modern pumps are very sensitive to sucking liquid fuel up the vapor collection vacuum that's what shuts off the flow. When the vacuum feels added restriction of the liquid getting sucked in it shuts off (which is often why they dribble after shut off: topping off, fuel gets sucked up the vaccuum then dribbles out after it stops, typically on the fender) There is a drain for overfill at the filler door but I believe that is outside the seal and only drains while (over) filling. If you top off slow enough and with a non vaccum pump you will just notice the car peeing behind the wheel. Back to the charcoal filter: The line to the atmospheric vent I think is attached to the top of the tank and the filter is actually lower. During operation a vacuum develops and will pull liquid gas from the filter as evaporated vapor but too much liquid will cause problems. I think the system may actually pressurise the tank to check if the gas cap seal is working. The car has an automatic valve that closes in case of roll-over to prevent gas leaking from the vent. That valve can fail closed and cause a too much vacuum problem. |
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Not sure where you mean to put a backup ring but the design doesn't hold the seal evenly it is literally "designed to fail" the plastic bends enough to let the o-ring pop out of the groove eventually. I recommend some preventive maintenance on the o-ring before 100,000 miles. If caught before the o-ring fails simply tighten the connection and install a screw or a hose clamp or even zip tie in the right place. I will take pictures of any fix I engineer of course. If I replaced the part I will put in a screw to prevent it from ever coming apart |
@ spun: there are two seals and the one has no o-ring and I can't remember if that one is part of the replacement part but if it's not it will surely be leaking on yours by now. I used Teflon tape to seal mine when reassembled it. A hose clamp on the outside would probably also work
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By back-up ring I mean a thin split plastic or metal ring beside the o-ring on the low pressure side. They often get used in hydraulics for this exact reason. The backup ring not only prevents the o-ring from being squeezed out it also keeps the gap more even and round.
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That wouldn't help but a spacer like a wrap of enough Teflon to prevent the cylinder from going crooked would probably work but not as good as a screw. The screw could also be installed to just grab the internal post without going through to the inside that's even better.
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I've got a good one for you tonight (Europe time).
I've driven close to a 1000 miles this week end (500 each way). Getting back this evening, my fuel went low, very low with no pump for 50 miles and I ended up having the car die on me when I finally got in sight of a pump. threw it in neutral and coasted it to the pump. I tried starting it up with no success so I assume it was empty, the fuel gauge showed very empty. Filled it up, put in as much as I could, insisting when the pump stopped : 74.77L Started it up, let it run a few minutes, tried to fill it some more: 3.24L (and a small puddle stayed above the flap in the filler neck. So my fuel tank is missing around 15 to 20L. The only idea I can come up with is that the pump isn't properly seated but I doubt its the case (already made that mistake) and I doubt this would justify 15 to 20L not showing on the fuel gauge or in the engine to run. Any ideas? |
Gauge shows empty but engine is fuel starved and there is 20L in the tank.
So break it down to components: I'm not sure if you were able to start up without issue but assuming also true: 1- if fuel starved with gas remaining means the siphon isn't working (if you can start when adding fuel) 2- if there is still fuel and the gauge reads zero there is *additionally* a problem with the float/sensor. 3- siphon not working is usually one of two things: weak electric pump or leaky "seal" going into the jet pump. I would crack the seal on the left sender and raise it up a bit, put the key to the "run" position and look for leaks. Only lift it a crack I got sprayed pretty hard when I opened it 3/4" If no spray it's either the pump or the FPR but if the FPR isn't retuning enough gas to siphon I would expect to see too high of pressure at the rail so that's another test you can do. Use test six to determine the levels in the tank unfortunately you have to drive a good while to empty 96L but drive with test six going until the right side drops while the left side doesn't. Then you can determine if the problem is out of the normal. If there is a plugged siphon foot for example the gas will dump through the pressure relief into the surge tank and you will effectively have a 5L gas tank. If the relief valve is partly stuck open similarly you can get partial siphon. You can crack the seal on the right sender unit and observe the overflow valve to determine if gas is coming out. My right float is getting caught and gets stuck about 3.5L from zero it's annoying because it throws off my DTE by 20 miles I will fix that soon with photos and add the appropriate feedback where it belongs |
I'll look into this but I'm not quite clear what could the issue be since I can use 75L of the tank consistently and the fuel gauge is on par with this volume.
Just so I'm clear, the right side should start dropping before the left side? |
For the first 60miles or so the gauge will not change as the top 10% is off scale.
Once 10% of the fuel is consumed both fuel sensors will drop until there is about 27L total the right side sensor will stop dropping and only the left will drop. At about 40 miles DTE the left side will be close to zero. Once the left side is zero the right side will start to drop The right side should be about 1.4L when the left is zero then add it drops to zero, the DTE should end up at 0 right as the right side hits 0.0L. There will be about 3.6L left in the surge tank when that happens but you should be able to safely drive down to 0 DTE. The full value on the gauge is about 10L less then the full capacity of the tank near that in mind |
Its been a while and I haven't had time to properly test the range as we've been moving a lot and on a trip is not the best time to toy with this.
I however have another issue that might be linked or not, but I'm getting fed up with this fuel tank. For the second time in 2 weeks, my right fuel sender has broken. And I do mean broken. It first happened on july 15, tank around a quarter full, went to fill up and the needle never came up, slowly fading down to empty as the range went down after fill up. I took it out, found it broken (resistor plate shattered and plastic holder broken), blamed the heat, and changed it. It worked for a few tanks of fuel then it happened again maybe 10 days after fitting the new one, I couldn't open the tank right away so it waited until today and same thing, resistor plate broken and plastic holder broken also. It seems as if the tank compresses itself. I guess it could be possible but that would be what the vent valve is for and I got no codes... Could the valve be stuck open and pull vaccum from the tank to the point of collapsing it? INPA says its closed with the engine off and when running for the first 20 minutes. As a side note, I've changed the PCV and taken care of all vaccum leaks in april but the temps here stayed on the low side until july so maybe heat could be a factor, daytime difference being around 15 to 20 degrees Celcius. I would also like to point out that despite not being able to swear the previous sender was correctly installed in the tank, I have not doubts about this latest one as I wondered if this could have been the reason for the previous failure. I'm open to all ideas, here are the pictures of the latest broken sender. http://img.flat4find.com/images/2018...-08_134942.jpg http://img.flat4find.com/images/2018...-08_134945.jpg |
I am not sure how the vent valve works in this system but the purge valve is hooked to manifold vacuum and can definitely fail open.
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It looks as if the assembly is being compressed (and bent) when you screw it down, rather than the sprung section taking up the height difference...?
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I am assuming that the bottom of the tank is getting sucked up(and top down) further than the sprung travel ??
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Maybe it's had massive hit from underneath at some point and is permanently deformed. :dunno: Or the sprung section is binding and not allowing enough travel. :dunno: |
The compression under vaccum is my theory because putting the assembly in is not difficult and it slips right in without the gasket, when I add the gasket, it doesn't slip as easily but that's normal.
I don't think its been hit, the car has only been on road for the last 6 months (went light off roading prior to that) and the first broken assembly was 10 months old when it broke suddenly. and the second one was 10 days old. I'm guessing if the tank was permanently deformed, it would have broken sooner. The only two options I see would be high preassure not being vented and the tank expanding a little more than the full course of the assembly, allowing it to move and get out of its locating hole or the tank being vaccumed into submission to the point where it breaks the assembly. I'll need to take it out again and take some measurements to see how much course there actually is. As for the strengh of the tank, it is strong but I can make the top move a little without too much force so I'm guessing the V8 vaccum pump would be able to do better. |
It looks like when you dry run (no seal) you are hitting the bullseye with the post and socket but when you redowith the seal the post is missing the target and causing the stress.
You have to put the seal on the sender unit first not on the tank. Wet the seal to help it going in smoothly Save extremely harsh external damage (drive over a rock) virtually no chance the problem had anything to do with change of size of the tank |
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I'm going to change it again as soon as I reach a bmw dealer to sell it to me and hope you're right... For my peace of mind, I'm going to check the vent valve since I don't understand why it broke the first time after such a long time without issues... I'll see if from the pump side I can check its correctly seated when I mount it. |
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e53 Fuel Supply Detailed (fuel pump / siphon pump diagnostic help)
That's true 15psi is substantial force.
You can try to take off the gas cap while the engine is running you’ll know right away. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro |
The pictures are of the jet pump or left side sender. Same as Port side. Driver side in the USA (LHD). I thought I read right side above.
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Hi again,
I changed my fuel sender (driver side, left side of the car, LHD car) and made really sure it was correctly in place. I used the moving it method, i lowered it vers slowly an once it sat, I raised it by a centimeter and tried moving the bottom to make sure it was in the recess (blocked on all sides) and not free in some direction. I also took some measurements : From the bottom point to the metal ring surface on the tank, the tank has 33.5cm depth. The fuel sender is 36.5cm just sitting on the bench the spring part is 6cm. That would mean that when sitting in the fuel tank, its compressed by 3cm. Once fitted, I was low on fuel so I went to fill up and had a little drive ahead of me. The fuel sender gave values for 70km before it went back to 0.0L.... I was on the highway, driving between 110km/h an 130km/h (3000rpm), light driving on a warm day with no urgency. I'm fed up, BMW dealers were on holiday so its still in the tank. Its been 10 days since it broke. My plan is to take out the fuel pump side and use my phone to take a picture (or 20) of how the fuel sender is sitting in the tank. I have to understand and I would enjoy not to spend another 100€ on a sender for half an hour of use... It might take a while, my timing guides died yesterday morning so I'll have to fix those before I throw more money at the fuel level... |
Putting in new senders was never the answer. You need to find the problem and repair it.
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Fuel gauge indicates 1/3 tank when I run out gas.
First, this is a fantastic initial post and following string. I'm brand new to Xoutpost and will probably irritate several of you with my noobness before the week is out. I didn't read all 13 pages of this string, because it's a lot.
I signed up here after I parked my late year 2005 X5 3.0 and awoke the next day to a car that cranked but didn't start. I made an appointment to take it in to a specialist (noob here, remember?), but ordered a new fuel pump in case I was able to repair it myself. This is after I dropped my glove box and front fuse box to check the fuel relay. The cheap, presumably Chinese-made, $23.40 pump from eBay arrived early. After watching some moderately helpful YouTube videos, I managed to remove the old fuel pump from the sending unit (this was hard and required 3 screwdrivers at once to pry the clips from the plastic housing while whacking it againt a tire 😬). I chucked the little hose clamp in favor of a standard wormgear hose clamp. By now, you have figured out that I am a guy with a BMW who can't afford to properly maintain a BMW. I have 3 kids in private school. Yay! Long story short, it worked. I installed the new pump and the car started. I am so proud of myself. 2/3 of my problem solved, I still had the fuel gauge reading issue. At empty, it reads 1/3 full, still. The sending unit was replaced just before I bought the car. Perhaps the 'o' ring issue described by the OP is my problem? What wisdom can my fellow Xoutposters offer? |
Since new I have always run the fuel level down until readout is between 10-15 miles of fuel remaining. Still have original fuel delivery components with exception of fuel filter. Current mileage about 121,000.
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Confirm how much fuel fits when you say it is empty and reads 1/3.
A design flaw in the siphon jet that will give you an out of gas situation at between 1/4 and 1/3 of a tank of gas. 2/3 of a tank is 64 liters. If you can only add 17 gal then the gauge is correct and almost certainly your siphon jet is leaking. 100% of the BMWs that I've serviced the fuel supply have has the leaking o-ring problem. I will do preemptive maintenance on any BMW I maintain at about 120,000 miles or less because they have a design flaw that lets the o-ring come out of the groove and will not be able to pump the last 1/4 of a tank of gas. You should be able to get 23-24 gallons of gas into the car when the low fuel light comes on. If your needle doesn't get below 1/3 and you can get a full fill then it's quite likely that one of the fuel level floats is getting caught up on the tank and reporting the wrong level. |
- Sorry I did not read the whole thread...
- Does anyone have the PN for the O-ring? - My 2006 X5 with 130K runs fine, zero issues even down to 1/8 of the tank. So I assume the O-ring is still fine but just want to replace it. - Question is: is this O-ring deformed straight from factory ? How does it get to this stage of deformation by itself? Just a scientific question! |
The o-ring will pop out of the groove because the fault in the design. It's a standard size o-ring but it's not a BMW part they only sell the entire unit.
I may have measured the o-ring look on the siphon jet repair thread. I've always had an o-ring on hand the correct size so I didn't need to buy one. There also is a joint that has no seal but should have one and needs some Teflon tape to fix that also Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro |
If your o-ring didn't dislodge yet, you just need to add a screw or a zip tie in the right place to prevent the failure in the first place
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The o-ring only gets deformed from fuel pressure pushing on it when the plastic tubes get deformed/shrink/tilt and provides excess clearance. I took mine apart to check and everything looks like new. Not sure if in some cases like Andrewwynn's if it's poor quality plastic or ethanol in the fuel that causes the deformation/discoloring of the plastic or maybe a combination. Also I wonder if the problem wasn't corrected in later production and with a replacement assembly.
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It's the tilting. The assembly is only held together on one side opposite of where the forces are applied. I have not seen a change in the design to avoid the problem I think it takes about 4000-5000 hours to fail so multiply that by your average mph to determine when it might fail.
If there isn't and improvement in the design it will fail given enough time. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro |
Siphon pump DIY repair
https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?sha...8&share_type=t That's the direct link to the siphon jet repair thread Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro |
- I test drove a 2005 X5 3.0i with 60K, nice car. Gauge showed 1/4 for a while and did not drop even with driving!
- Car then stalled, code P0442 (EVAP leak) and P0301 (misfire cylinder #1), then code of misfire in many cylinders etc. Long story short... - Mechanic checked: fuel pressure low, opened the tank, there was only 1 gallon in the fuel pump well! - So the issue of stuck fuel level sensor (driver side) is interesting. I see that in E39 5-series, E-46 3-series cars and also E53. I don't why the sensor is stuck, maybe people let the tank run dry so often, so fuel evaporates and left behind residue. The solution is to fill it up and add Techron etc. - Then it occurred to me that BMW engineers copied the E53 design from the E39 5-series (I own a 1998 528i)...When you think about it, if you were an engineer, you would design with the fuel pump on the LEFT side of the tank and use the siphon pump on the RIGHT side. This way the fuel pump always sits on the bigger side...and you can run the tank down to 10% or so, although I always fill it up when it gets below 1/4. - Anyway, just a thought on the engineering aspect of this! |
It's on purpose and makes more sense this way. They want the pump to be submerged in gas even when the car is at a sharp angle up or down.
By putting the pump in a 5L "dent" on the right side the pump is submerged when the tank has 0.0L on the gauge. If the pump was in the bigger side it would take about 20L of gas to submerge the pump but more importantly when you are pointing down or up the pump would be dry. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro |
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There is always only one gallon on the right side once the total fuel quantity is about 1/3 of a tank. If the fuel pump was submerged in gas the fuel pump itself is the likely fault. The NORMAL reason for gas starvation when the gauge reads 1/4 for example is that the siphon jet connection is leaking at the o-ring. The left tank usually will have 15-20L of gas and the right side will mere ounces of fuel. I would love to know what the follow up early with that car because what you are reporting doesn't logically make sense. I have personally had the right side sensor hang up and that will give you a few liters of error. I hadn't seen a case of the left sensor hanging up but like I said if there's "a gallon of gas" on the pump side that's enough to drive 20 miles you won't stall unless the pump is worn out and can't provide 50psi. |
The factory design is fine AS LONG AS the siphon pump works.
The BMW engineers did not anticipate siphon pump failure somewhere down the road! What I meant is: build a tiny recess on the L side and put the pump down there. This way when the siphon pump fails, you can still drive until 1-2 gallons remaining. Again, they did not predict siphon pump issue. It is all because of the driveshaft tunnel issue... |
The tiny bump you describe would poke out of the bottom of the car.
They didn't anticipate the siphon jet o-ring failure hence my description as a "design defect". Your proposal would not be an improvement. The car would starve of fuel with 40% full tank when you go up or down a steep hill. that's the beauty of the design. By putting the pump in a dent in the raised part of the tank, the pump is submerged down to about 3L of fuel regardless of the pitch angle of the car. Just like 100 other systems on the car there are required subsystems. Once we know about it though it's easy enough to keep on top of things. By monitoring the fuel level with hidden menu 6, watch the right tank level and if it drops before the left tank goes to zero the siphon jet is leaking. You can prevent getting caught with fuel starvation with 1/4 of a tank remaining. |
Having 2 fuel pumps or even a separate pump for the syphon jet would solve a lot of issues.
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Oh hell no. Siphon jet has no moving parts in theory it woukd last indefinitely. An oversight in the design of the flexibility of the plastic causes this failure. An electrical/mechanical pump would be far less reliable. Also the beauty of this system is it's no more effort to pull fuel from the front and back of the main tank to account for up and down hill operating.
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Hey guys!
I have a 2006 BMW X5 3.0i, with 128,000 miles, and have some fuel gauge issues. A couple of months ago, the X5 ran out of fuel when the fuel gauge needle was between the 1/4 and 1/2 hash mark. This all started after another shop replaced the fuel pump and they said it was nothing that they did. Last month, I added a full tank of gas and needle moved to 1/2 mark. I removed both fuel sending units and didn't find anything wrong. I reinstalled it and the needle went to full. I figured that maybe something got stuck and now it was fixed. A couple of weeks later, the car died again because it ran out of fuel and the needle was just under the 1/2 mark. I took it to a shop to read faults and they said I had the following: Stored in the DME: - (141) 8D PLAUSIBILITY, TANK FILL LEVEL, NOT PRESENT. OCCURRED 2 TIMES. Stored in the Instrument Cluster: - (199) C7 TANK SENSOR #1 (FUEL PUMP SIDE), NOT PRESENT. OCCURRED 0 TIMES. - (215) D7 TANK SENSOR #2 (WITHOUT FUEL PUMP SIDE), NOT PRESENT. OCCURRED 0 TIMES. I removed both fuel level sensors, checked the resistance when I did the sweep test and didn't find any opens in the resistor. I reinstalled it and the needle dropped to the 1/4 mark. I found out about the instrument cluster test and got the following: Tank Sensor #1 = 21.8 liters Tank sensor #2 = 8.1 liters This is roughly 7.8 gallons which looked liked it did when I last checked it. I then added 16.18 gallons of fuel and the needle went to the 3/4 mark. I did the cluster test again and got the following: Tank Sensor #1 = 55 liters Tank Sensor #2 = 27 liters This is about 21.66 gallons so this should be a full tank right? I am also getting" TNKANZ: 58.8L, Phase 1" 58.8L equals 15.53 gallons. Phase 1 means both sensors are OK but I don't know if I believe that or not. To my knowledge, the drivers side fuel sending unit has never been replaced. I am starting to think that the drivers fuel sending unit or the instrument cluster itself could be faulty. Any thoughts? |
The gauges only read to full minus ten liters. (The floats hit the top of the tank).
If it says phase one as your surmise, car is getting realistic values from the floats. If you are getting intermittent drops in value sounds like a bad connection somewhere. Two things most likely cause of fuel starvation at 1/4 tank: leak on the siphon jet or a weak fuel pump. It's tedious so get measurements of the fuel pressure but I just crack the left sender open and turn the key to determine if the siphon jet is leaking Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro |
Hi to all,
I've done my timing guides, it was a pain but its done and runs beautifully so I decided to take a look at that fuel sender. What I did was take out the fuel pump and having the tank low on fuel, I used my iphone and is flash photography to take a picture of the offending fuel sender in situ : http://img.flat4find.com/images/2018...-15_190638.jpg As you can see its correctly seated but the plastic holder is broken and the sender is hung up (I'm guessing on a broken resistor plate). The only explanation I can find is that my tank vent valve leaks under the engine's vaccume and this compresses the tank... Is there anything else that pulls vaccume from the tank or would explain compression? I'm thinking my only way of testing my theory would be to change the sender and unplug the vent hose before the pump. is there any other way? Of course I'm very open to ideas, if anyone opens their sender unit, I'd be interested of knowing the distance from the rim to the bottom of the "bump" on a tank that doesn't eat its sender units, maybe even the distance from two points (towards the center of the car and towards the door) of the rim to their respective sides of the bump to see if my tank is deformed for ever or not. Thanks for the help. |
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- Thanks to the O.P. for the detailed explanation.
- I know I don't have siphon pump issue b/c I ran it all the way until the YELLOW light came on, then stop at gas station to fill up. - I did some experiment today, filling to about 35-40%. Then drove a few miles, then some more photos. - Then I simulate "off-road" condition by driving EACH side on a concrete curb at a shopping mall, just to tilt the car to the right and left. - Re "How to test siphon pump": the design is such that the Fuel Pump sits in that well on the RIGHT side of the tank that holds some 5L, and this is all the Fuel Pump "sees". As mentioned previously, when fuel is below approx. 32L, most of the fuel sits on the LEFT tank. - So if your gas tank gauge is below 35%-40% AND the siphon pump fails, you only have minutes before the car stalls when the Fuel Pump consumes all 5L in that well! In other words, there is "no good way" to test the siphon pump as running out of gas is detrimental to the Fuel Pump. I drove around with Test #6 on, the well shows anywhere between 2.6L ---> 3.9L. - If you want to test the Siphon Pump, then drive around with: 1. Fuel less than 35%... 2. Test #6 on and... 3. Keep looking at LEFT tank, it should go down slowly as fuel is being pumped from L ---> R. So, if the RIGHT side shows <1L, then the car will stall soon, potentially damaging the Fuel Pump. - In other words, once fuel is below 35%-40% AND the Siphon Pump fails, it is a matter of minutes before the car stalls, simply b/c there is only some 5L to be consumed! - Back to what I said in another post, on looooong highway drive, it is best to keep fuel above 40% at all time, just to avoid that 0.01% chance your Siphon Pump fails. Or open the left tank and fix any potential siphon pump way ahead of time. - Photo... --- |
The last 5L will get you 15-20 miles it's not mere minutes.
Watching the test six once the tanks split left/right (about 30L total) the right tank will stay the same until you run out of gas. You can tell of there is a soft failure without running out of gas very easily: The right tank number will stay the same on level ground. In my wife's case 1.4L (there is an additional 3.6 L not displayed). You can drive for quite a long way while that number slowly drops, for example once the number drops to 1L there is still some gas coming from the left tank just not more than is being consumed. I've driven 40+ miles watching the level in the right go from 1.4 to 0.9L. So: drive down to 1/3 of a tank and watch the right tank value. If the number drops, you have either a leak in the siphon jet or a weak electric fuel pump. The flawed design of the siphon jet guarantees a failure at about 3-4000 hours. I recommend fixing the o-ring preventatively at 3000 hours. (100000 miles if you average 33mph.) Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro |
- On the issue of preventive maintenance...
- If I open the LEFT tank to check the Siphon Pump, and let's say it is good with no issue, what can I do to prevent O-ring issue? Should I apply a hose clamp around the connection? Should I secure the Siphon Pump better? |
Zip tie will prevent the problem. See where I put in the thread on the diy fix for siphon jet
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I don't think that vent is attached to vacuum. You can disconnect the hose to see. When you drive a while do you get a vacuum on the fuel cap? I think the problem would be in the tank venting system that has a valve to close in the case of tip over. Maybe that valve is stuck shut. As fuel is consumed, ambient air must be allowed in or you will create vacuum: drink some soda out of a bottle with your lips sealed on the bottle and the bottle will collapse. It is what I suspect is happening with your tank. Look into the carbon canister venting system. If the tank is dealing with vacuum that's the main suspect. |
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I will look into the air intake valve, I'll have to find it first... any ideas where this is? The fuel tank vent valve is my main culprit for now since its linked to the manifold but having no way of finding out when it opens, I can't be sure. |
This is definitely the most beneficial thread I've ever seen on the www; makes my head hurt.
Knowing when the siphon pump is supposed to kick in (@32L?) is priceless. I want to replace the entire siphon pump on my X5 3.0i; not comfortable with the task of separating the components without busting them. I'm wondering if any of today's siphon pumps being offered have been upgraded with the better O Rings, etc. I read down to page 5 or 6 and haven't seen a part number for a siphon pump; any help would add to the pile of appreciation I have for this community. Onto page 7 Thanks again for all the info. Salute! G |
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BMW Part #16111184427 https://c1552172.ssl.cf0.rackcdn.com/370687_x800.webp BMW Part #16116762044 https://c1552172.ssl.cf0.rackcdn.com/173720_x800.webp Might as well simply replace the o-ring... BMW Part #16116761645 (o-ring) |
I did the teflon seal mod a few weeks back, it was a pain to separate but being gentle went well and I have no issues to report.
I haven't had a chance to test it to 0 because my GF is using the car so she's been ordered not to play with the reserve but I will soon. |
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I remembered 'i saw this somewhere' but it took me a couple hours to figure out where! I 'knew' i saw it on my detailed fuel supply thread, so i just had to read post-by-post until i found it! there is literally NOTHING on the internet that returns anything helpful when you search anything related to 'reset fuel gauge bmw' literally nothing useful. I remembered that 'somebody posted how to reset' after 'replacing a fuel sender' and somewhere, and i sure was hoping it was on this thread! Story to follow. |
A couple days ago, driving about 75 miles home from chicago, got 3 miles from home and engine shut off no warning. no stutter, no warning lights, (no DTC even after it stalled).
I have a knock-off fuel pump that is the under-warranty replacement of the one that failed after 10 months, so I was pretty darn sure that had to be it, i actually didn't even look at the test-6 or open up the tank before i ordered a new Bosch unit (the pierburg are too hard to find quick shipping). I also liked the verbiage on the Bosch unit regarding new improvements in the design in the past TWENTY YEARS since mine original was made. Anyhow, imagine my surprise when yesterday i go to take out the old sending unit (where i'll transplant the new motor), and see a bone dry tank (i mean BONE dry; it would take less than 3 paper towels to remove every bit of remaining fuel; clearly the pump was working at the time). So; siphon jet? at nearly 1/2 tank registered; well that's not laws-of-physics possible if the senders are reporting properly, so i pull up test 6 and it shows 330000 ; 33L left 0L right; well i can visually confirm right is 0.0000, but the left when you look from the right port hole, you see reflections and you really can't tell.. So, 5-8 minutes later, the left side port open and what do you know it's BONE DRY ALSO; so the sender was reporting the wrong #; by 33L. Well that will throw a big monkey wrench into the system for sure. So, i hook both senders back up (careful to point the fuel pump down into the tank in case any fuel might spurt out), and get test 6 up and running; and both will do a proper sweep from 0 to 27 and 0 to 55L. I go to fill up the tank and something odd happened; when the left tank got to about 28L, it stopped climbing while the right side ramped up properly to 27L or so. Then i started driving and the left side popped up to 55L as it's supposed to read and the right stayed pinned to 27L like it's supposed to. I get 6.0 reading of 550270 as it supposed to, 6.1 reads 82.0 and 6.2 reads like 62.5L; wtf? So i knew i had to reset the IKE but didn't know that was what I had to look for. That worked like a charm, instantly my fuel gauge now went from 2/3 to 1/1. I still have to figure out what is going on with the left side sender that is 'sticking' at 33L; it's either somehow a dirty sweep (btw has a TIS how to fix by increasing the spring tension) or a physical blockage, like the float is getting caught up on the discharge hose from the siphon jet pump. I have to drive about 180 miles tomorrow so after that drive i should have the fuel low enough to send in the 'rectal probe' (fiber optic inspection camera) and see if there is a physical obstruction causing the hang-up. Soooooo. since I already bought the new Bosch pump, and my wife is still using the original pump from my car, i'm going to put that pump in her car and put her pump in my car in the trunk as a spare, with just enough tools to swap on the side of the road if necessary when my china pump actually fails. That will be enough to get me home where i'll order another bosch/pierburg pump. |
Subscribed. Excellent thread.
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For fuel pump, stick to Pierburg.
About $150 at FCPEuro or on ebay. The aftermarket pump quality is questionable. The Pierburg should last some 150K. |
Crazy thing happened today; guage read 1/2 tank, but the tank ran dry, right next to a gas station.
The car took 25 gallons and started right up. I think there was 427 miles on the trip meter. I installed a new fuel pump a few months ago, then I changed the O ring on the syphon side. I did page2 of test 6 a couple days ago, it showed phase 1. So after I filled up, I ran the instrument test; no faults. I ran test 21 and effected a reset. Gonna do some research to find out why the guage showed 1/2; perhaps the fuel level,sending unit |
Fuel sending unit fails either:
1. Mechanical: stuck in one position: I doubt it. 2. The rheostat fails "electronically", i.e., it sends the signal to the cluster saying the tank is 1/2 full, even the float is down to 1/8. Try a few bottles of FI cleaner such as Techron and report back. This should be easy fix. If Techron does not fix it, then get new sending unit from dealer. If you are very short of budget, then use the odometer as your fuel gauge! |
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That's almost verbatim what I wrote above I thought you quoted me. I checked test six after I took the pump out to look and it read 33L left side. I took out left side and plugged it back in so I could run the sweep and it went the full range. When I filled the tank it got stuck at like 28L left until I drove away then it popped right to 55L as it's supposed to. I still have 39L left and about 5L right so I can't tell if the suspected physical hang up on the float is the issue but as soon as it gets closer to 33L left and especially if the number stops dropping I will be sending the "rectal probe" (snake camera) in from the right side into the left and figure out for sure if the float is caught. I can't figure out how it could possibly be a case where the resistance is stuck in the middle electrically but BMW does have a TIS about how to fix the resistor sweep by adding more spring pressure so that might be required. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro |
Starting guage reading was 1/2.
Did some work on the truck's fuel tanks this weekend; I pumped-out 12 gal from the fuel tank; from the R/S, then peered into the L/S with an Ames camera. The L/S float was in fact suspended on a fuel line (my foul up from oring change out). Opened the L/S, insp. the new o ring, and re-installed the syphon. Put it all back together and started the truck; the guage read 1/8th tank and ran fine. 18.2L, 0.0L, 18.2L. So, I'm fairly-confident the syphon system works. Replaced the 12 gal of fuel and guage read at 1/2. 41.0, 0.0, 41.0. This thread (as I've shared before) is the most benificial thread I've ever seen on the web; thanks! Eneded up with a new 12v pump assem. and a new camera (@$184.00). Did more work on the trk today, will post in proper place. G |
41 left 0 right not plausible. Right should never be below about 1.5L.
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10-4. Bugs me too. I did pump the R/S dry to clean it. I'll evaluate after my next fill up. I could of messed up the float placement on the R/S this time...lol Thx! |
Right level should swing from 1.5 to 27L. The key is that the left joins the right at approximately 28.5/1.5/30
It's tragic that some STUPID simple programming would stop a lot of stranded situations. If left > 29 and right drops to zero flag an immediate pull over fault. If right > 2 and left < 28, flag low fuel light. You can not have left > 29 and right < 2 it's impossible when working. You can't have left lower than 29 unless right is "bottomed out" at flood stage (usually 1.4L) Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro |
I need to understand how these tanks work myself, thanks for posting up your research and experiences!
I solved the running out of fuel problems I had with a new siphon jet pump. But now the tank is eating floaters, I think there is a pressure problem that causes the tank to contract and contact the float. |
Somebody else had a problem of the left sending unit getting crushed. The thought was the roll over valve for shut and no vent to outside to let in fresh air. (there is also a set of valves for testing leaks that could be at fault)
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e53 Fuel Supply Detailed (fuel pump / siphon pump diagnostic help)
You said you pumped 12g from the right side. It only holds 5L before flooding to the left side. When you put it back in 5L fills the surge tank then the rest is shared left and right. I'm not sure the ratio but actually I think close to 1.
That would mean about 40L/ 2 or 20L per side. You said you had 18.2 left? That is not a normal value for flood stage it should be 28-29L. If left side was at flood stage that's 29L and 12g is about 45.2L. If you started at flood stage and the siphon moved 5L to the right you should have 23L left and right with 5L should read 1.5 ish. Put the 45.2 back in and the first five gets you to flood stage and then the remaining 40L is split left and right. 28+20 left = 48 and 1.5+20 right = 21.5 Total of 69.5 L or 7/8 of a tank. Think about this: you removed half a tank (12g of gas) putting it back in should add half a tank not end up at half a tank. I currently have a problem where my left sending unit at random times adds a random amount of fuel between 10 and 30 L. There is a tech bulletin describing the problem and the fix basically need to add some pressure to the resistance wiper. Hoping that's all it takes and I can add one more fuel system fix to my repair catalog. |
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Is that the system that uses an Android interface you can program? Yes that would be awesome to program some examples. I've been saying since I started this thread it's important to drive down to single digits DTE to confirm siphon operation but you can do most of the important monitoring with the test six. Right side will stay exactly the same from 28 down to zero left tank unless siphon jet has a problem. If the right side drops down to zero when there is 1/4 tank the siphon jet needs repair for example. If the left side ever reads over 29 when right side is at flood stage (1.4L typical) then the sender is reading high like mine is and you will run out of fuel because the gauge reads plenty of gas. |
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Unfortunately I've not dug into those systems. There is the system that shuts off the outside vent save a known size orifice to measure the current on the air pump that pressurizes the tank to measure for leaks.
Then there is a master valve that shuts off the vent to the charcoal canister. If that valve is stuck shut you'll have the same problem. I don't know where the parts are but some might be in the left rear wheel well. Open your gas cap after a long drive if you hear a crazy vacuum suck the problem is for sure the vent not opening Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro |
Irregular R/S Float Reading corrected.
Yep, I binded the float on the R/S too; on Saturday's install.
Corrected and will monitor. G |
So I finally got to repair my fuel gauge issues today!
Some big helpful findings! First: the distance from the bottom of the fuel guide post to the center of the floating float at flood stage (left below 28L) is almost exactly 2 cm. Makes it extremely helpful when trying to calibrate the right fuel sender ! My fuel arm was way off from when I got my replacement complete unit. It displayed 5.6L or something at fkod stage. I went to fix it and went way off the rails. When I had the fuel pump out to figure out why I stalled no fuel a few weeks ago I discovered the pump was fine the left sender was reporting 33L of fuel when there was ZERO. Since I had the right side out I bent the float arm based on product photos and got sorta close: reported 0.2L at flood stage which if the parts never failed would be near perfect (0.0 would be ideal). The problem is that when things aren't working properly and you are using test six to monitor say the siphon jet, you NEED that 1.5L of warning to get to a gas station. 0.2 is "background noise". So I had two goals today: 1) fix my left side sender (success I will make a new thread to show how to do that) and 2) calibrate my right side sender to get something like 1.5L at flood stage. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...f1f43a5610.jpg Bingo! Also success! |
So: how to calibrate your right side fuel sender if it's not reporting 1.4 ± 1L.
First get an ohm reading when you are confident you are at flood stage (left tank below 28L right staying the same). The two terminals closest to the door jamb are the sender terminals. When at flood stage you should see a value close to 37-39 Ω. If you get that reading but the test six right isn't showing 1.4ish the problem is elsewhere. Mine was reading 22 Ω. Far far too low. The lowest reading on my sender was about 18 Ω and that registers 0.0L on the computer. I took my fuel sender out and propped it into a vice; https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...c87e64d3c8.jpg Do it only exactly this way. It's the only place that holds it firmly and are and level. Then I measured the distance from the floor to the bottom of the guide post: https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...b2ef78e3ac.jpg It was almost exactly 118cm. Then I measured the height from the floor to the center of the float when the sender reported the same Ω as reading in the car, it was almost exactly 2cm lower, VERY handy. Then a few rounds of trial and error to get the Ω value of needed with the 2cm offset and about 1.5L at flood stage. (Bend the float arm a bit: more straight to get a higher Ω more bent to get a lower Ω. ) https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...47ccb4e2a2.jpg That was my bench reading. I think it ended up being closer to 39 Ω in the car but I'm very happy seeing 1.5L when driving now vs. 0.2L ! https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...0a6fe709cb.jpg This is the fuel pump fuse. Very helpful for testing with test six before hooking everything back up! I probably took the pump out and in about a dozen times today so I'm quite proficient at it now. A couple tips: don't try to feed the float in first when installing, hold it up vertically and let it fall down after it's in! Huge difference! The seal MUST be on the TANK not the pump! It typically comes out with the pump but must be transferred back before reassembling. Here's my biggest aha moment of the day: HOOK the float with a long piece or wire bent into a "J" at the bottom and lift it vertically for removal also! Wow did that make It go smoothly! It will catch on the edge just push it away from the edge with your finger. Stall out the engine with the fuel fuse out to depressurize the fuel line. Then when removing the line, wrap with a paper towel about 10cc of fuel will be absorbed into the paper. Safety dispose of fuel soaked paper with a lighter in a safe location (metal bin outside works well). If not windy the middle of a driveway also works well I used my homemade bar for removing the big fuel tank "nut". I think photos are already in this thread. That's the update for the right side sender. Left side sender resistor repair coming up. |
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Very useful writeup!! Based on your description, i found the fault in 10 minutes. :thumbup: Many thanks!! |
It's a design flaw. Every one will eventually do that. So glad it helped
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I just have one questions (yeah probably not true) why does BMW have to make everything so damn complicated? Well a few things are simple enough like the radiator hoses but most everything else is a PITA.
Yeah Ive already had the fuel pump failure. :( |
Solving one problem after another over time leads to complexity. It's impractical to ground up design every time and that method leads to an entirely different type of failure mode.
Considering the permanent fix for the o-ring design flaw is a single zip tie BMW could have sent out a TSB vs. replace the whole left sender unit with the same design flaw as the original. |
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They really need to add a like button to the post so we can simply hit like and not have to waste post section. Thanks for all the great information even though Ive gotten information overload from it again. ;) |
AWR-fix: e53 Fuel pump / siphon pump details
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Sometimes I get a like button in tap a talk but usually no so maybe it's based on which forum I don't really pay attention to which forum I'm in I just reply to subscribed threads. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...551c622942.jpg Confirmed. Bimmerfest has like option |
I would rather not have a like button as it is becomes too easy just to punch it rather than state the reason for ones opinion or provide input which is one of the primary purposes of a forum.
In addition, if there were a like button then there should also be a I don't like button and, and, and and. |
"like".
Well said. I have often posted simply +1 when in agreement with a post it means the same as "like" So: "+1". |
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My gauge does not go to full after I fill the tank. On the menu it usually initially says the right side of the tank is zero, and will sometimes flicker between 27 and zero as I am driving around, and will display Phase2.
After a period of time, the gauge will go to full and the menu will show both sides of the tank as full, but will still show Phase2. After more time, usually after about 50 miles/a few days, the indicator will switch to Phase1 and the gauge will be completely normal. I'm suspecting the fuel level sensor on the right is the culprit. I'm on my third fuel pump. The mechanic says it is the cluster. I don't have time to fix the car myself, and it is really hard to find a good mechanic. Is it the pump/sensor on the right side?? Or the cluster? The photo shows the menu with a full tank (it is in phase2) but the needle doesn't go to the top until later. Video shows the right tank flipping back and forth between zero and full. Any advice is appreciated. Video: https://youtu.be/GV8Ywc4fOm8 |
Are you replacing the fuel pump by it self or as an assembly with the sender? By "cluster" the mechanic means "instrument cluster." Maybe post where you live and someone might be able to suggest a mechanic.
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I am not replacing anything. I am trying to determine the root cause of the fault. I live in San Diego.
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You can read the Ω from the sender unit. If you look at the range of values. You can back probe to read while plugged in. Good question about the fuel pump. Was the pump assembly replaced with the sender unit with the pump or just the pump. |
@andrewwynn do you happen to have a source/link/ part number for the O ring?
I’m fairly confident that I have a problem with my siphon pump now. Car seems to run fine with the fuel level always kept over a half tank and running it down it 1/4 to 1/8 saw it cut out while driving along. I’m hoping it’s just an O ring that needs replacing as per the above example too. |
Finally got around to pulling my siphon pump today. Looks like this:
https://i.ibb.co/2jC5S3w/IMG-2845.jpg Am I right in thinking this look as it should be right now? So the only thing I should need to do is put in a zip tie? |
Looks like you beat the o-ring to expose itself. Yep put in ziptie. You can just slightly see it's starting to tilt toward letting o-ring come out.
It's "next level" test but I put the unit mostly in and run the fuel pump to make sure the bottom connection also not leaking it has no actual gasket. I put in an o-ring on the bottom connection but don't bother if it doesn't leak it's a fair amount of work. |
If the lower connection is leaking then a piece of glue lined heat shrink works nicely.
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That's a great tip I also had success with hose clamp. It's a moronic design with plastic to plastic connection no seal. Both our e53 were leaking there at about 130,000 miles and 15-16 years old. The upper o-ring was much worse sprayed so much the siphon jet stopped working at about 1/4 and 3/8 of a tank.
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