Rear Toe Won't Go In Spec
 

Hello all.

I have an 03 X5 with 170,000 mi. I just had the rear suspension rebuilt with a Lemforder kit. I had the subframe bushings checked while I was there.

When it was time for an alignment the camber came into spec (-1.62L, -1.54R) but the toe wouldn't improve beyond -.28L, -.39R.

I just went through a set of tires in 3000 miles hence the rear suspension rebuild. I'd really like to prevent this from happening again.

The guy who did the alignment has never done an X5 before but he did spend a good bit of time trying to get the toe to improve while keeping the camber in spec.

What are my options? Are there toe bolts with greater eccentricity available?

Thanks in advance!

Did you replace the ball joints as a part of your rear end refresh? How about the swing arm bushings?

Good day!

I know a lot of BMW's need to be properly weighted when doing an alignment... I'm not positive if BMW got away from doing that or if it doesn't need to be done with our X5's... when I was doing alignments, we had 50kg for both front seats and one for the middle rear... IIRC!! It has been about five years, so my memory could be a little misleading! Oh, and a full tank of gas...

Additionally, if the X has ever been in an accident, it could cause this issue... it tweaks the alignment of the rear sub frame just enough to cause issues...

As fifty150hs mentioned, everything needs to be right before the tech should even start the alignment...

Good luck!

Cheers!

The rear ball joints are brand spankin' new. The rear swing arm bushings didn't have any noticeable play.

I weighted the car down to some extent. I (coincidentally) had a few bags of mulch in the back seats along with two bags of play sand in the hatch (not coincidental). The gas tank was full as well.

I might order those eccentric strut bolts to see if improving the rear camber a bit more will bring the toe in.

New shocks?

If the tech were to pull some of the -camber out (like 1/4 degree), this would decrease the -toe by around 1 degree.

Has the ride height been verified?

I don't know if the ride height was verified when they did the alignment.

increasing negative camber increases toe out.

If the suspension is in good working order you should be able get toe in spec when camber is in spec.

Suspension components have similar lifecycles. Unless the swing arm bushings are almost completely shot I find it hard to check them accurately unless at least one end is disconnected.

Where were tires wearing most? Inside, outside, cupped, etc.

Of everything that came off, only one of the upper control arms was bad. Everything else looked to be in great shape. The car spent most of its life in Texas. It didn't see salt before 2016.

The rear tires were extremely worn on the very inside edges. The rest of the tires were still nearly new.

I talked to the guy who aligned it. He said the camber is at max adjustment. He also said the subframe isn't bent and the subframe bushings were solid.

Ugh.

Have you replaced the shocks? When I had that problem my alignment shop thought it was due to sagging shocks. I replaced them and did a full rear suspension refresh and my alignment problem was solved. So, I don't know if it was failing shocks or something else, but something to consider.

No, I haven't. I didn't think shocks had much effect on ride height. Do they on the X5?

Had you replaced everything else before you did the shocks?

Shocks have NO effect on static alignment settings, sagging springs and incorrect ride-height setting (for air-bag vehicles) has an effect.

I did them all at the same time, so i don't know which fixed the alignment problem. shocks, suspension parts or both.

Camber is maxed out at positive or negative camber? And why is it maxed out? If the suspension is good maxing out adjustment either to positive or negative side would not be in alignment, not in spec. If the adjustment is maxed out and the the alignment is not in spec there is a problem with the suspension.

In my experience, unless the subframe starts banging, you can't really tell if they are bad until you drop the subframe enough to visually check them.

But, I was not talking about the subframe. I was referencing the swing arm/trailing arm bushings. They need to be checked when there is no load on the suspension. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_guTE2ANcIg

Most of the rear suspension components were replaced. I bought the entire kit.

What hasn't been replaced: Subframe bushings. Rear swing arm bushings. Rear springs.

The rear camber seems to be getting worse and the toe keeps creeping outward more. I'm about to sell the thing if I can't find a fix. I can't keep buying tires every 3k miles.

Has anyone had experience with the rear swing arm bushings being shot and throwing the camber / toe out?

Have you replaced the rear ball joints?

As swing arm bushings wear out the negative camber will increase as will toe out. Rear springs are almost always a lifetime component. When one suspension components fails and all are the same stage life it is best practice to do a complete overhaul. Subframe bushing can be the exception. They will start making noise over things like speed bumps letting you know they are dying.

As I said previously, I used the Lemforder kit. It includes rear ball joints, integral links, guide rods, and control arms.

The only things that haven't been replaced are the swing arm bushings, springs, shocks, and subframe bushings. The subframe bushings make zero noise. I have no reason to suspect they're bad.

It sounds like my next move should be swing arm bushings, no? Any recommendations on where to get them?

I got mine from FCP Euro. They are Lemforder parts as well. took them to a local machine shop with a press to have the old ones pressed out and the new ones in. The new ones are tricky because they have to be compressed before being pressed into the swing arm.

I doubt I'd mess with them myself. I'm teaching almost a double load this semester and I've got a lot going on otherwise.

A friend owns a garage and isn't afraid to get into this sort of dirty work. He has a press. I'm sure he can handle it.

I really hope this fixes the camber / toe issue. Otherwise this little piggy is going to market.

Fixed mine. I did a full suspension refresh including the swing arm bushings because the alignment shop couldn't get it into spec. They can now.

SunnyDaze, do you think it is possible that the shop you paid to install all the parts skipped on the ball joints?

Those are completely hidden, and about 10x more difficult than everything else to replace. And failed ones give exactly the results you've got. And you seem to have exhausted just about every other possibility.

I overhauled the rear suspension on my '01 myself after I first got it and noticed the tires were severely worn on the inner edge. For me, those ball joints were toast, and like you found, one of the rear suspension rear upper control arms was loose. I ended up replacing ball joints, integral links, and rear upper control arms, all on both sides. Nothing else. After that the suspension could easily be aligned any way I wanted it to.

No need to have it done at a shop, but will need the right tool. They press in like any other bushing.

oldskewel: No. Not a chance he'd skimp on the ball joints. How do I know this? First, he handed me a box with all the old parts and said "You're wasting your money and my time. Only one of these control arms was bad." Second, he's been my father's friend and neighbor for 30+ years. There are shady shops out there. He's not that guy.

Doing them myself isn't an option at the moment. I've got entirely too much going on for the next few months. Banquets, weddings, and events mark my calendar every weekend from now until Thanksgiving.

For the minimal amount my dude will charge, it's really not a huge deal. Even at that, I just want this camber / toe fixed.

I took a few rougher roads home today. The subframe bushings in the front make a bit of noise. The rear bushings are silent. I'm putting my eggs into the swing arm bushings basket.

Wish me luck.

That's great that you have a mechanic you can trust. For me, that was one of the worst parts of owning cars before I learned how to fix them well. Got ripped off a couple of times (that I knew about). And even on this X5, the PO (well, his insurance company actually) paid to have a camber adjustment kit installed following a minor accident. When I replaced things, everything was original.

I tend to agree on the swing arm bushings at this point. I had the swing arms out when I worked on my truck, and would have at least considered pressing in new bushings but I was unaware that they were available separately in the aftermarket.

Good luck!

I've got the bushings on order.

I'll let everyone know how it turns out.

Sounds good. I replaced my subframe bushings and physcially they didn't look too cracked, as I used the tool to pull them out it became readily apparent they were on their last legs. Several deep cracks niether a mirror nor flashlight could see. Swapping them out should leave my alignment with zero problems.

Do the rear subframe bushings effect camber and toe?

Only if something really weird is going on! ;)

So how did it turn out?