Loud tapping in bank1
 

Hey guys been using this forum for years but finally decided to join for 2 reasons. Well yeah the first one is because i need help but i also want to contribute as i know my fair amount. So anyways let me set the stage:
02 X5 4.6is. Got the oil pressure warning engine shut off while driving at 25mph. Got the truck towed and after adding a bit of oil (1/2 q) the engine started making ratle sounds, normal since no oil pressure. Decided to drop the pan and saw guide pieces . So remove upper pan and looking at the oil pick up tube the plug in the back was removed by PO. Essencially by passing the screen. Got to the oil pump took it apart and saw a piece of guide stuck in the gears that seize the pump, and shredded the shaft key holding the sprocket in place. So then i removed the front and changed all the guides, chains, o rings, vanos seals, vanos gaskets, cam sensor, solenoid etc. Also changed the intake gasket, oil circulation hoses and all. Started it and all noise went away and had good pressure. Drove 500 miles and developped a loud ticking on bank1 and got P0012 code. Since both are dependend of oil pressure i tore it down again and verified vanos oil flow from remote filter hoses and channels was ok, checked one way valves, gaskets o rings etc. Took the oil pan off and noticed some stuff in the stainer pick up(minimal atv sealant) so cleaned and put it all back together and tapping still persist and is very loud. Did bleed procedure to no avail. Is there a diagram somewhere that shows the entire oil circuit from the filter to bank1? I did notice that all the lifters on bank 1 are smooshy instead of rock solid like bank2 which is not tappng. I also wondering if removing the pick up tube plug like the previous owner did will allow more oil to flow thru?? Risky but if quiet i am ok ...i m using 10w40 mobil 1. Not sure what to do or check at this point any help is much appreciated

Ouch, and I feel your pain. I would investigate the oil passages in the head due to your comments on "squishy" lifters. And your mention of finding RTV on pump screen. That stuff should never make it thru the pump gears, but who knows where else it could have found it's way up there. There are diagrams that show flow and I am pretty sure there is an allen screw in the head by the cam sprockets that allows access to the passages. Secondly, when I purchased my 01 4.4 I too had a "tick" I fought that thing and searched, replaced parts for a good 3 months trying to locate it. It had to be in the head somewhere. Won't bore you with all details, but ended up being a scored cylinder/bad piston. The knock I must have been hearing was piston slap. I found it by taking the pan off and looking up into cylinders and just by chance saw the scoring. So, don't assume it's in the head, noise travels and I would have sworn it was in the head. Keep us posted.

Man dont say that ! lol I am assuming it s oil restriction on Bank1 some how because of 2 things:
1) Vanos over retarted..needs oil pressure to advance
2) All lifters on bank 1 are soft - need oil pressure
I lied... 3) The oil is fed to the block on bank 2 side where the oil filter hoses connect so by default the far side Bank 1 is not getting enough pressure somehow.

Now that being said, I can't find any internal oil passage diagrams to start investigating..

I did blow compress air in the vanos oil passages behind the check valve and the oil filter tubes but didn t do the trick...

Thx for the feedback!

Dumb question, is the oil filter and lines clear?

yes, checked oil pick up strainer, oil filter housing hoses, filter, etc.

Oil pump? Might be blocked by some debris

It s brand new, I changed it. Debris wouldn't make it pass the strainer on the pick up tube.

It would then be interesting to find a pressure gauge and check the pressure at the oil filter.

An inline pressure gauge fitting and any sender with specs and a voltmeter would do. you don't need the gauge

Not sure how to do that. The intake hose from the pump to the oil canister has a ring fitting on one side mounter to the block and a solid end with a o ring on it mounted to the oil canister... I wish it had a port somewhere to tap on oil pressure gauge... How do you check the oil pressure on a M62?!?!! lol is the question..

oil pressure
 

I am assuming that the oil pressure sender is the same on a 4.4, which is on the filter canister. Look for a single wire going to a round thingy on the the bottom of the canister. If so, you need to remove the existing sender, get some pipe fittings from any hardware/home center, and fabricate a mechanical gauge. Actually if you go to NAPA, they should be able to hook you up if you bring in the stock electrical sender. This is a good recommendation for diagnosing. Start here and get back to us.

Ok I ll drain the oil, remove the sender and hook up a oil pressure gauge with a fitting..I have one.
Another question the oil pick up tube had the plug removed, any reason why would someone remove it? I m thinking maybe removing the bronze plug at the end of the pick up tube would increase oil flow? but will also by pass the strainer, not good...
I m tempted to remove it and see if noise goes away...

Thanks for the help!

I doubt you need to drain the oil, You might get a dribble but if the car has been stopped long enough, there'll be no residual pressur.

I just looked at etk do find where to plug in and I was coming to say the same thing as capex5 or if you can't find or fit a gauge but it seems doable, you could try hooking up to part 18 with an extra piece of tubing.

First things first, if you've got a pressure probleme, damage can be done which should be averted as much as possible. Bypassing the strainer does not seem like a good plan, you'd be forever wondering if a piece of the guides might break and kill the engine.

I just opened the bentley manual, using the oil pressure switch port is the way they recommend.

Oil pressur should be 0,5Bar (7psi) at idle and 4.5Bar (66 psi) at regulated pressure for which they don't give an RPM value so you'll have to rev it to see.

As causes for low oil pressure, they suggest :
- Wrong oil grade
- Worn or faulty oil pum or faulty pump pressure relief valve
- Worn engine bearings
- Severe egnine wear.

The pressure relief valve could be an interesting thing to investigate should the pressure read low.

yeah that s what happen, the guide seized the oil pump. But on the other end, if the plug was not removed and the pump wouldn't have seize I would have driven til the guide explode and ruin my engine after the chain skipped a tooth ... good side of everything i suppose.... yes oil pressure is key but that s not going to confirm the difference in oil pressure on each bank. That s my next step, I will report!

Thanks again!

If I recall i think it s 66 psi at 1500rpm... where is the pump pressure relief valve? if it s in the pump I changed it..if not, I have no clue where it s at.

I juste looked into that, ETK was no help but bentley manual had a nice picture, its vertical above and slightly to the side (when looked at from the bottom) of the oil pick up (strainer). Pieces are held by a clip and if some debris is blocking the piston (tight) from closing correctly, you'll never have enough pressure through the whole engine.

You'll need to drop the pan to check it so I still recommend checking the pressure first (save some oil). If the oil pressure is not strong enough, it might be barely enough for bank 2 and a little low on bank 1.

yes looking at it now on the Bentley...I changed the pump, got a factory BMW pump, so unless that s defective...that pump is buried! whole front end had to come apart to get to it. ugh

for more info:
Remove oil pressure switch.
Fit LRT-12-052/10 to oil filter housing and fit LRT-12-052C to LRT-12-052/10, tighten unions.
Check engine oil level, top-up if necessary.
Connect battery earth lead.
Start and run engine until normal operating temperature is reached.
Note oil pressure readings with the engine running at idle and at 3500 rev/min .
Minimum pressure at idle = 0.5 bar
Maximum regulated pressure = 4.5 bar
Switch off engine.
Remove LRT-12-052C.
Remove LRT-12-052/10.
Clean oil spillage.
Fit oil pressure switch.

Drove it to work this morning took it easy...P0012 code came on. I got the oil pressure gauge, will attempt to connect it tonight. Loud tapping and P0012 are I assume both related to low oil pressure...keep you guys posted! :dunno:

P0012 is "A Camshaft position timing over-retarded (Bank 1)" so yes it could very well be linked to oil pressure.

Well oil pressure checks out : 4.5psi to 65psu. So the issue is past the oil pump and oil passage is restricted on the way to ban1. But where? I check the check valve behind the solenoid. Anyone has a inside block oil passage diagram? Or any suggestions? Thx!!

Is it possible to have messed up the vanos while pressing them using the Beissan procedure? But why would it have ran fine for 500 miles? Loosing sleep over this nonsense ;-(

Have you checked pressure at idle?

Its not something I recommend lightly and please do your research before following this advice!!!!!

Adding half a liter of gearbox oil to the engine oil could help, it has more powerful detergent power. Run the engine up to temp and for a few minutes when warm, reving it (and ideally in gear driving so the vanos is put to work) then drain and throw the oil away.

I NEVER TRIED IN A BMW ENGINE, DON'T KNOW IF SOME PART WOULDN'T TOLERATE IT, PLEASE RESEARCH THIS BEFORE TRYING.

Safe version, check on the vanos solenoid and vanos. You could also try some oil cleaning additives (never tried those)

THX for the advise! I d like to find the diagram of the oil port channels and how the lifter and vanos are fed as this clog is affecting both. It s in the block or the head but somehow affecting bank1 the far side from the oil feed.

I couldn't find the schematic, but googling I did find this and remember you said the oil pressure was 4.5 to 6.5PSI. 4.5 should be the limit according to the bentley manual (regulated pressure).

Reading the first part of the picture :
https://www.carmanualsonline.info/im...960_2821-8.png

This says that when max pressure is applied in default mode, the vanos goes full retard.

Did you do the test cold or warm?
Did you get pressure at idle?

if you did get 6.5PSI cold its suprising, warm its alarming. Too much pressure is just as bad as too little pressure and that would point to the pressure relief valve not relieving pressure (stuck closed).

The test was done wgile warm, 4.5psi at idle and 65psi at rpm.

Sorry, I confused myself between Bar and PSI. 65 PSI is good enough (Bentley says 66Psi) but 4.5 is too low at idle (7Psi)

So you have an oil presure problem. Its what you expected but now you know. if you rev very slightly the engine and get it to 7Psi (fast idle), do you have the noise that brought you to this?

The oil pressure light never turned on. But yeah the tapping and P0012 came on at the same time and are always present, cold/warm/hot and at any RPM. Like I said the pump is brand new and the oil sensor is located on the output of the oil filter housing for it to come on in case it gets clogged to alarm the driver. So the oil filter, housing, pump, pressure valve and oil passages to the sensor are prob ok. Issue is between bank1 and bank2 or bank1 and oil filter housing but dunno know how it s routed.... Thanks again!

I had no luck finding routing information, but at this point, either you dismantle the engine or try some cleaner in the oil. I see no other course of action.

yeah that or maybe swap the Vanos on bank1 to bank2 and see if bank2 starts tapping... but I m not sure if the oil for the lifter is dependent from Vanos oil passages ..

Another dumb question but I didn't find the answer (or missed it), what oil did you put in?

10w40 Mobil 1 synthetic, had 5w30 before and no difference in tapping or code.

if the change made no difference, we're back to opening it up or a cleaning agent.

You don t think swap Vanos side would help isolating the issue?

It might. I'm split right now between guide debris somewhere in the circuit and/or vanos problem.

Considering the work involved in swapping the vanos, if it were my car, I'd probably try the solvant option first.

Do you have INPA? if you do, you could check if beyond the retarded issue, the vanos is operating when driving. it would tell you if there is some operation or none at all.

I don t have INPA only a code reader :-( Seem like there is plenty of power when I push the gas...so I m assuming even of over retarded it must me working. Dunno know at this point this is crazy!!

Maybe someone local could stop by and give it a go at checking before you open it up or you could order it, it might prove useful.

Alternatively you could try draining and filling up with 10W60 but it won't truly solve the problem.

Yours is not a simple issue even though the fix will probably be something simple.

Thank you Sir! I ll keep investigating and post my findings to help others...

Please do, I'll admit I'm curious about the cause.

Well well well, thinking the problem was in the head I should have looked at this sooner. there is a check valve on the block going to the head on either side. I also found a hex plug on the back of the head leading me to my next steps...
A) see if I can connect an oil gauge on that plug
B) prob won t work but can try will be to blow air thru that hole or fish out debris
Z) taking the head off ..at this rate wtfn

I want my baby back!

Keep you posted..stay tuned

You'll get there, its an annoying issue but its mechanical which makes it "easier" than electrical in my book.

with the right adapter you should be able to connect to any plug.

Quick update: removed the hex screw behind the head, screwed in a fitting and a hose to a gauge. No oil pressure at idle or rpm. Disconnected the gauge and see if oil flow present... oil coming out but not a huge stream. Blew air threw it and break cleaner... also disconnected the output hose from the oil filter and blew compressed air. Then hooked up a vaccum to the hex plug line output rig to see if i could dislodge the clog..
Result: after idling for a few minutes the tapping is gone. Meaning no perm damage. When reving or under load the tapping comes back. So i have enough oil pressure to lubricate but not enough to pump lifter or vanos..
Next woold be to check the valve from the block as it seem bank1 head is not getting enough oil pressure... any other suggestion?

After your cleaning, did you take another pressure reading?

Yeah and drained the oil in a white cup to see what would come out of that tap but dribble drible barely feeling pulsations using my thumb to build pressure. So very low. Explaines why the tapping goes away after sitting at idle for a while.. low presssure eventually builds up to make it quiet. With rpm the pressure can t keep up and tap comes back. I ran an engine cleaner and dropped the pan to find no residue and a clean oil... which i changed again. Check oil filter and not much of anything in there either so clean engine. I need to know where the oil split is to bank 1/2 and crank. Is it at the point of entry in the block or on the drilled stud at the end of the hose from the oil filter... i could blow air if i can see a oil chanel there ... trying to avoid removing the heads here...if that s the case i m dropping the subframe withe motor f that...

Do the valves feeding the oil to the heads usually go bad on m62? Thx guys

I'm not sure the information you're hoping for exists publicly.

As for some deductions, if you have INPA, you could look if your vanos are both working as I'm guessing they get distinct oil source for the solenoids since if they were in line, the first served would affect the second one. It might help you to know if you're looking for an issue before or after.

If you have an endoscope (or can rent one), you might be able to fit it in the oil passages and look for the debris.

Beyond that, I'd got with occam's razor. You did some changes to the heads (gaskets) and vanos, a bit after those changes you got an issue..

A think in your case I'd take off the head on bank 1 and blow through oil passages in the head and the block and give the vanos and solenoids a good look over. Its a pain and you may want to take out the solenoids first to have a look into those as it would make sense they would be the way into the heads for the oil but this is pure speculation.

As far as I understand, the oil gets to the heads via two check valves, number 5/6 on link below. Since Vanos and lifters depend on oil pressure and they both have issues the valve or close to it is probably the issue.

https://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/sho...diagId=11_2815

Valve must be stuck closed or obstructed by something which prevent proper oil flow to the head (bank1). Blowing from the tap was pressurized...Which indicated the vanos seals are tight and the one way check valve going into the block works.
If I blow from the oil filter hose going into the block, plenty of air flow comes out of the bank2 solenoid (after removing the check valve behind it) If I remove solenoid out of Bank1 and the valve i get limited air flow. Same if checking the tap on the back of the head.. something is right before that stupid valve...It s $12 but a PITA to get to..

I was wondering if those check valve from black to heads are a common failure but looks like I one of the few trying to figure this oil flow nightmare out... Dont give dont give up....:-)

Thx


https://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/sho...diagId=11_2815

Did you try pressure from the taping on the other head in order to compare?

Looks like you're taking the bank 1 head of... I don't see another option.

No it was not as accessible. But using air i was able to move the vanos cause code went from p0012 to p0011. Yeah looks like it. Here goes my xmas break :-(

SO.... I was able to reach the plug on the back of the head on BANK2 I was getting 45psi at 2k rpm so all good, not surprising since that side doesn't tic. Still don't know why no pressure on Bank1. I hooked up a vacuum on the rear of the bank 1 head plug and suck oil out to hopefully clear the line but no dice.

Running out of options... was hoping for a Christmas present but there is a reason I no longer believe in Santa...

I was talking with a mechanic friend, he had an idea that he called "cheap and dirty". I don't know how I feel about it but here you go :

Get a steam cleaner and steam the engine via the plug on the head. Don't steam it for long periods so as not to cook the gaskets. you can add som detergent in the plug before the steam. the rythm would be something like 30 seconds of steam/ 5 minutes of waiting hood opened, repeat a few times. Open the oil filler cap so the steam can get out.

Never tried, not sure if I would but here you go. The guy works on all sorts of cars and has been doing so for maybe 40 years.

Have you tried any kind of additive in the oil? If the engine is still running, try a can of something like this. Back in the 90's the VW Jettas and Golfs would have stuck/noisy lifters and one can of this solved the issue in 2 miles. I guess you have nothing to lose at this point, give it a shot? :dunno:

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon....1OPUUARN1L.jpg

Loud Tapping Bank 1
 

I m back after many months but I found the issue:wow::popcorn:... Finally took the heads off, was expecting a clogged check valved on Bank 1 but the one on Bank 2 was stuck open with a piece of chain guide. Being open all the time and being on the same side as the oil intake from the filter, the oil took the least path of resistance and didnt have enough pressure to open the valve on bank 1... resulting in low oil pressure on bank 1, tapping and timing issues since it all depends on oil pressure...
$12 valve = 30hrs of labor and months of research.
I remove the entire engine/trans/trans case front end assembly. Will to the front drive shaft,longer splines and transfer case chain...Trans bushings and gaskets, clean her up and hopefully drive it again!! had to buy a Toyota in the meantime to drive to work, the VW bus was getting cold in the winter...

Anyways today is a big day!!!

Wow, Well done for not giving up on it and finally founding the issue. Its something to think about and check when doing the timing chain.

Now all that's left is to put it all back in the car and enjoy it at last.

You should've bought an age appropriate eberspaecher heater for the Bus, I've got one in my convertibl beetle for winter, its almost too powerfull.

Yeah! Not too worried about the heater i looked at gas options but gonna drop it a few inches instead... as far as the X5 i noticed the oil coming out of around the vanos area. I think it the pressure release that dumps the oil around the chain and back down the oil pan via the front. I love this Alpina X5 and truly miss it. Though the battle is not over i like coming to the root cause and say... yep thats the issue! Knowing what broke and how it broke is the skill not so much swapping parts..i m glad i was able to salvage the motor... will see how long it lasts.. anyways more to come!

Thx for all the feedback and suggestions i ll try to post some picks.

Fred

Well well well... parts arrived today yay! Rebuilt the transfer case with seals and chain. Now the tranny had a hardshift from 2 to 1.. so decided to send it iff to get checked while out. Simple valve body bore turned into a full rebuild. Including TC valve body, seals, clutch plates, drum etc.. $2600.. i am putting the heads on this weekend.

That's one serious rebuild you're going for.

As for lowering the bus, if its an option, try using kersher coilovers, I've got them on my beetle, the ride quality was transformed despite being lowered, its better than it ever was.

So after removing the motor, trans rebuilt and xcase chain replaced along with 200+ parts replaced it s all back together. Started it last week and loud tapping seems gone yeah!! But i have an exhaust leak now so couldn t drive it home :-(
Not bad considering the heads were removed and everything was taken apart. I ll keep u guys posted and add pics. So far so good hope it lasts! The oneway oil check valve in the block feeding the heads was the root cause since it was stuck open😄

Loud Tapping Bank 1 FIXED (for how long??)
 

Ok so it s been a while..After putting it all back together, I ended up having a loud exhaust leak and a p0032 (if i remember) code which is over-advance cam on bank 2 right off the start. reset came right back. ...but the truck was moving and running strong.So I researched it and come to find out this code is vanos sync with cam and crank sensor within 4 second of start. Had to open it back up !! But luckily bank 2 is the side without the tensioner so I check the cam and sure enough was off...Noticed the pin in the fly wheel will slide in another hole next to the one for TDC..so basically was not fully retarded on bank 2. That code shuts Vanos down if the DME can't detect vanos closed circuit within a few sec as a point of reference... during this procedure I noticed the cracked brackets on the aux air pump tube.. put it back together. and this is where I went wrong :-(

Since i rebuilt the trans i wanted to delete the error codes and when doing so using Progman (Newb with this) something when wrong, not sure if loss of voltage or faulty cable or my stupid (_x_) but I bricked the DME....
Long story short, got ISTA installed and awesome gurus i found in forums helped me setting up a new DME...
Note: Truck would not crank or start water/oil temp were maxed out, which is an indication of DME connectivity issues. I used, INPA, DIS, and a bunch of other software, multiple cables and i couldn't connect the the engine/trans management part of the DME . Everything else worked fine.
I received a DME pre loaded with the daten and E53 files based on my VIN and synced it to the EWS system using ISTA and VOILA!!! Holly shit it started no leak no codes no noise..other than injectors.That being said, tag/insp are dead from a year ago cause I knew nothing about the software side of this..still don't but i got the concepts.. whole different ball game.. anyways..

Looking thru forums the end results or fixes to the problems are not always there so I wanted to close the loop...Thx for reading, ping me if u guys run into odd stuff cause it probably happen to me :-)

Nothing wrong with a Toyota. Mom and the kids love riding in the Sienna. We hardly drive the X5 these days.

Loud Tapping Bank 1 FIXED (for how long??)
 

Yep nothing wrong with it, but it s just not even close to be comparable...

It was bad luck on bricking the DME, I always try to run the software with the engine running or the battery plugged in.



Hopefully you can enjoy the car now...