Have you had to replace your rear subframe?
 

I just bought an '03 X5 (3.0) and thought, other than needing new tires, that it was in great condition. When I brought it for the safety inspection, it "failed" because of the tires and a brake light being out. They jacked up all four wheels/tires and used a prybar & tugged/pulled on all 4 wheels ...with no issue.

I brought the vehicle to a different repair shop to get the tires etc. and have them go through the vehicle, do a detailed inspection. They got me the tires, but, also said that it needed lower control arms and 2 rear subframe bushings. I approved it when I paid the bill, was ...aggrevated with myself that I did not take a different approach on the LCA's and subrame bushings. A little over $1,000. AND, in the notes of the work order when I paid the bill, they said I needed a new rear SUBFRAME.

???

How often do you all have to replace your rear subframes? I climbed under the rear of the vehicle and ...I admit there's a little surface rust, but, nothing that would give me concern that I would need to replace it. I can only imagine how much that repair would cost; $1,500 - 2,000??

I'm kinda thinking I got taken to the cleaners. (Obviously, for those of you reading this post, you didn't inspect the rig before I brought it in to the second repair shop). But, I jacked up all 4 wheels and gave each a solid yank/pull. I felt very little, if any, play. Same with the inspection shop - and I know them and think they're good. Even driving the vehicle gave me no indication I had such "issues" needing repair. No 'clunking' going down the road, no drifting on the highway; just the opposite - nice & tight. And not for nuthin, but, when I climbed under to visually inspect it myself (after the repairs) I was shocked to see one of the muffler support brackets, bolted under the subframe bushing ...and it was beyond loose; almost had a 1/2 inch left to go. NOT EVEN HAND TIGHT!

I know it's rather minor, but, I found it puzzling that one of the other list of things I should get fixed, (ideally with them), was a "frozen" rear windshield wiper arm. Which I knew was wrong because I had it going before I brought it in. And when I checked it after I got it home, it worked fine. I just think they didn't know how to turn it on......

The subframe is not a wear and tear component. It would only need to be replaced when damaged badly such that safety/alignment, etc aspects of the vehicle is compromised.

The OP already noted that there was rust on the subframe. whether the rust has already compromised the integrity of the subframe is something that we aren't sure of. The garage that inspected the car had already made the recommendation that the subframe is replaced. I had an Isuzu rodeo that looked perfect from the outside, but the frame had rusted to the point that the frame was perforated with holes. Isuzu had a recall for this problem.

Plus the OP is from the Northeast, a known area where salt is used on the road.

Simple, go back to shop that provided that diagnosis and make them show you why that was their determination. Works every time for me to keep them honest.

Yup, as said normally just bushings but you would be feeling that if you were looking out for it, and rust is also a possibility.

Bottomline, you need to take a look for yourself to make sure.

EDIT: off topic alert! Upallnight, you didnt get a Cayenne yet? I've been away here a bit since I got a Subaru and I thought you would have gotten one by now. A first gen turbo is still on my wish list someday.

Thanks all.

Removing the rear sub-frame looks like quite a task!

https://a.d-cd.net/c68de75s-960.jpg

https://a.d-cd.net/38de75s-960.jpg

Pix from BMWxMAX - here: -

https://www.drive2.com/l/492756032666206240/

And it seems pretty substantial - the corrosion would have to be bad to compromise it...

Thanks all.

I went back to the original shop where I got my rejection sticker and asked him about possible need for control arms and/or subframe bushings --- and his eyes popped open wide (I know him well, he's very honest, thorough, good). "No, it did not have any play in the front and I didn't feel anything in the rear that would make me thing you needed those bushings"....

I have been underneath the vehicle and as mentioned there is minimal surface rust on the subframe. Maybe in 5 or 6 years I may have to reconsider. I'm pretty sure the repair shop fraudulently took advantage of the situation. There's no way they could've "missed" not tightening the muffler support that bolts to the subframe bushing. And they should not be in business if they don't know where to look for the air duct to the throttle body. And to say that the rear windshield wiper was frozen once more shows incompetence (assuming that they just didn't know how to turn it on - it works fine for me). Thinking of calling the Better Business Bureau.

Clearly, you were funding someone's summer family vacation or something:bustingup The rear subframe typically has surface rust here and there. Mine had and I'm in Seattle area (car has been here all its life) where we hardly get snow and therefore very limited road salts. Just cleanup the rusty areas (you will notice that it's only on the surface and no further) and lightly spray black Rust Tough, a Rust Preventative Enamel.

I'm a little confused; the shop after replacing sub-frame bushings said the actual sub-frame was compromised? it's conceivable they discovered the likes of a bad weld while replacing the bushings, etc. I've never heard of such on an X5 but they are starting to get pretty old.

Yeah; which only compounds my feeling that ...I've been "had". Never going back there. Going to call the shop and discuss with them, see if there's anything they have to say - and considering a call to the Better Business Bureau.

A shop could come to the conclusion subframe need replacing when they can't get proper alignment but there are aftermarket control arms that are adjustable to make up for that. Unless there is damage or a stunning amount of rust to cause a fault the subframe is fine.

Looking at mine a while ago I could see where a misdiagnosis would come: the rust prevention coating will fail and it will delaminate as a thick scale. It looks structural because it will look like 6mm thick piece of metal broke off. It's 5.5mm of rubber and 0.5mm of rust. Non issue just looks scary. It also amounts to 85% of the rust on my car.


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FYI, X5s in good condition usually wear the inside of the tires faster than the outside It's possible all you needed was new tires and have the alignment checked.

Somewhere around 100,000 miles it is time to do a suspension rebuild. Much better to do it all at once instead of piece by piece, especially if you don't DIY. Saves a lot in labor cost and dying suspension parts can cause new parts to wear faster.

It was a good idea to go back to the repair shop to ask them to show you the problem with the subframe. Always do so before allowing a shop to do any work, especially if you have no definitive symptom. And, tell them you want to see the old parts whenever any shop does work for you.

Generally, all four bushings are replaced rather then just two since the subframe is dropped and they all have the same number of miles on them. The most difficult part of replacing subframe bushings is the removal. And if if the bushing is frozen or the proper tool isn't used the subframe can be damaged. I would think that if there is rust damage it would be in the area of the bushings but never know.

Best to always have work done at a well recommended independent shop that works on BMWs on a daily basis. Not unusual that someone here will be located in your area and can recommend a shop. Even if one knows a BMW inside and out it is a best to get a second PPI opinion at a shop that is familiar with X5s.

I think we're giving that shop undue the benefit of the doubt - already the OP was told the rear wiper froze - lie #1. Further, an honest shop would inform the customer before completion of the job of their new findings/discoveries - the subframe rust, bad welding, etc - and give the customer the opportunity to see those findings, in case requested, and approve the repair. Instead, the shop assembled back everything and then informs the customer via invoice or at vehicle pickup that the subframe itself needs replacement. Right there the bushings would have to be replaced yet again. Crookedness #2. Need I go further?

OP, you seem to have some doubts- yeah, trust yourself and don’t keep giving the benefit of the doubt to a clear-cut case of dishonesty.

Thanks again, everyone. Lesson(s) learned.

To be clear, they did alert me before any work was done and I approved them replacing the lower control arms and bushings. My mother Raved about this shop and I went on faith that they ...’wouldn’t shaft my mother’. I was surprised when they said the LCAs and Bushings should be replaced but I trusted them; again based on my moms experience. When I got it back and accumulated the list of things they were wrong about and then the *%#! muffler hanger left just hanging... OFF THE BUSHING THEY JUST REPLACED ... that’s when I began to feel like some fraud had taken place and wanted input on the subframe.

Still not sure what I’m going to do. For sure, will never return there for any service. Thinking of calling the person my mom raves about to share my experience and see what he says. Also thinking of floating the absolute fact that I will NEVER refer anyone there and will absolutely share my negative experience on any of the social forums where people ask for input on repair shops. And finally may consider a call to the Better Business Bureau.

Thanks all.

LCA/bushings sounded totally legit very common but worn out subframe would be very uncommon though as upallnight mentioned he's seen it in a different car so prudent would be "show me what you mean" so you can determine if it's factual.

If, when they found a problem mid bushings replacement, THAT would be the proper time to stop and say we should replace the subframe not just the bushings.

To make sure we are on the same page, they didn't replace subframe just two bushings and lower control arms correct?

They replaced the two rear subframe bushings. In their “list of recommendations” they said I needed a new subframe.

Re the lower control arms, I also recently bought a 2001 325CI and when I jacked up the front, the play in the wheels was extremely noticeable. I could see the play in the rubber components. I replaced them and it’s great now. When I jacked up and checked all four wheels on the X5 I was pleasantly relieved to find virtually no play whatsoever on any. When I brought it to the repair shop I typically go to, that does State Inspection stickers (the other shop does not), he jacked up all four and did even more testing and found no issue(s).

What I'd be concerned is that there are 4 subframe bushings. Typically if one is replaced they all are replaced. Both, because of they wear at the same rate and because of ride quality. Did they replace one side or both rear or both front subframe bushings? I'm speaking of the front or rear bushings for the rear subframe If you go back and look at the pictures wpoll posted you can see the 4 large round bushings, one in each corner.

They replaced only the 2 rear subframe bushings.

So the only thing that really should of happened here would be that the shop should have contacted the owner and made them aware of the supposed rusted subframe before any work was done. Then at that point the failed subframe bushings could have bee brought up and make a recommendation to replace all four even though two have completely deteriorated since the subframe would be out to replace the bushings. Anyway its highly unlikely that the subframe is rotted through.