Transmission problems, delayed engagement..
 

Hey people,


I posted here several years ago regarding my e53 transmission issues. Eventually I got it rebuilt and things were good for a while (for 30k miles).


Now I have the delayed engagement issue. It happens from P / N to D but no issues with R engagement. I have around 2 secs of delay before that little soft kick to engage but the transmission does not engage every time. Sometimes I have to go back to P and try D again. It eventually engages and once engaged everything is good as long as I dont go back to P, OR.. If I dont come to a stop and car is facing a minor uphill. It acts like it's on N and I have to go back to P and D to re-engage. Once engaged, it's good.


I have replaced the fluid twice (to Castrol Transmax Euro) and changed filter. There were no big particles in the pan and no bad smell so I thought things were ok (again, car only had 30000 easy miles after the rebuild).


I have also replaced the solenoids, thinking they may be sticking. I purchased a rebuilt set but realized at the last moment that the EDS1 solenoid was the one for the older models 0501 209 875 (.4 to 5.4 bar) and not the original (green) 0501 210 060 (.5 to 5.5 bar). I replaced it anyway hoping that it should not make a big difference.


Since things were still the same, I decided to work on the valve body, thinking there would be a spring in there broken or something causing all this. There was not a broken spring, valves looked ok, so just after a clean up and a Transgo Pressure regulator valve upgrade, I put things back together and the car seems to engage better but there is still that issue. I have not reset the adaptations on it yet, but that probably will not fix the problem either.


So, what's left other than the costly clutch repairs?


Ideas please?


Thanks,


Ozzie


E53 4.4 01 (ZF5HP24)

Sounds like pressure valve 1 issues. R uses higher pressure I've read so why it is not having the same problem. What scan tool are you using ? Get some real-time pressure values. I have a different transmission in my 3.0 but I could take a picture of my RPM v pressure.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

I am using INPA. Is it possible to read pressure values with that?


Thanks,


Ozzie

I don't use laptop solution but I'm pretty sure yes. Find your egs module and find the pressures. I have a 328xi I work on and has a slow to grab 1st gear (no real pickup before 1500 RPM). Symptoms indicate likely the seal to the valve body is leaking so the primary solinoid can't generate full pressure. Your said you had your valve body out? Did you use new seal/s when replacing? Word on the street is expect problems if you re-use the valve body seal. No way I would.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Unfortunately, it’s not possible to determine pressures with a diagnostic tool because there are no pressure transducers in the transmission. All you can measure is the current driving the solenoids, but this doesn’t tell you whether or not the solenoids are producing the required pressures.

When you had your valve body assembly out, would you have noticed if there was a crack forming in the upper valve block?

https://i260.photobucket.com/albums/.../RRPhilVB1.jpg

https://i260.photobucket.com/albums/...s94b31533.jpeg

This crack in the S-V 1 to KV-F circuit produces similar symptoms to the ones you are describing.

https://i260.photobucket.com/albums/...psxi9gulc1.jpg

When warm/hot, the transmission effectively drops into neutral when stationary as the leakage causes the A-clutch to disengage. This only affects 1st gear. Reverse and the other forward gears are unaffected. If the engine revs are raised then the increased pump flow overcomes the leakage and the A-clutch engages, giving you 1st gear. The symptoms are worse when the transmission is hot because the fluid’s reduced viscosity increases the leakage through the crack.

Eventually the crack works its way along the casting until a piece of the valve block breaks off.

https://youtu.be/wUsc-sNFvJU

Phil

I know this may sound way too easy but is the fluid level correct?

Phil you are a gentleman and a scholar. I think my thoughts represent the forum. Thank for continuing supporting us with your infinite knowledge of these transmissions. Really nice to see you reply. Ty.

Seconded. I've thought this after reading everyone of Phil's posts. :thumbup:

I agree with everyone about how amazingly helpful RRPhil has been in this forum and I was actually hoping he would respond to me this time too.


I have added some more (half liter) fluid yesterday and reset the adaptations with INPA. Engagement feels smoother but there is still that delay.


Another thing I noticed was INPA showed the transmission temp kinda high even after car was parked for half an hour after a 5 min drive. It showed 45c which I thought was too high. I will check again today and see what it says. I am planning to change that cable harness anyway because some of the solenoid connection plastic parts are broken..


Regarding the upper valve body crack, I took several photos (I will post one) and I did not see a crack there. Please take a look and let me know if you see anything unusual from the photo..


Thanks,


Ozzie
http://www.d-signsolutions.net/downl...4_131824_1.jpg

I might be seeing shit. But that looks like a crack below the 1058. From left count 4 and 5 tube looking thing. Looks like it goes from tube 4 over the hole to tube 5.

Also, having Phil specifically call out your symptoms, I would be looking for a new valve body at this point. Next time you open it up, replace that shit.

I looked at it again and I just did not see that. I am attaching a bigger image.



Also, a new valve body would be very expensive for me at this point. Is there a dependable place to buy a reconditioned one?


Thanks,


Ozziehttp://www.d-signsolutions.net/downl...4_131824_2.jpg

I only saw shadows and normal bends in the cast metal.

Did you replace all the rubber seals when replacing the valve body?

Rebuilt valve body had been recently referenced. I think $700 probably with your old core.

If more fluid helped it feels like lack of pressure but I don't have much experience inside a transmission only reporting what I've seen from others. Mainly, always use new seals when taking out the valve body or solinoids.

No, I did not replace the seals unfortunately. I was very positive that one of the springs was gone so they were ready to replace but not the seals..


Thanks,


Ozzie

I would do that asap. I read a bunch of threads when I thought my solinoids were going out and the consensus is never keep the old rubber seals. One leaky seal and you get shitty shifts even if all the solinoids are perfect.

If you were able to add fluid means it was low or the wrong temp so something to look into: how/why low.

Adding fluid improved performance so I'm betting bad seal somewhere. I think when they refurbish the body they can add sleeves where the solinoids go if needed to make tight seals.

Were my car doing what yours is, it would already be on Jack stands and the rubber parts on order.

By seals, do you mean the little rubber pieces inside the valve body?



Meanwhile, I checked the cold temp of transmission today and as the engine was 11c (it makes sense because it was 50f outside), transmission temp showed as 22c, so it definitely measures a little high but I am not sure if that would cause this issue. My next step will be to replace the wiring harness, I think..


Thanks for all the help everyone, once again..


Ozzie

I can’t see any crack in the upper valve block in your photos. I would expect it to be more obvious if that was the cause.

Clearly, it would be best for you to replace the complete valve body assembly with a known good one to ‘eliminate it from your enquiries’ before having to take the major step of removing the transmission and stripping it down.

Here in the UK I loan out valve body assemblies for exactly that purpose. If it fixes the problem the customer pays me £300 +VAT for the unit (no exchange needed). If it doesn’t, they return it and just pay for the postage.

https://i260.photobucket.com/albums/...psx2hfvdxd.jpg

https://i260.photobucket.com/albums/...psan6nyfsd.jpg

I vacuum test all the valve bodies after cleaning, Sonnax valves are fitted where necessary (I’m personally not a fan of the TransGo main pressure valve), and then the valve body is fully tested, hydraulically and electrically, on a Hydra-Test machine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54gBRA_yMnM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jm_M4hk1YHI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZH3BkKlNfM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFgB_OW9_PA

Unfortunately, I’m sure that the shipping costs to the USA would be prohibitive, but there must be somebody offering a similar service over there? Or at least could you get your complete valve body assembly tested on a Hydra-Test or Axiline machine?

Phil

P.S. I think the offset on the accuracy of the temperature sensor is a red herring. I think you’re safe to ignore it.

Thanks for all the input RRPhil (and making me drool to those clean valve bodies you worked on).


I will look to see what is available here and replace the whole effin thing when I can.


Also, what do you think the chances of clutch parts being broken / leaking causing this issue?



Thanks everyone else also for help, well appreciated..



Ozzie

Here is another question after some research from other transmission forums.


What are the chances of the manual valve on the valve body causing this issue? I remember it being a little loose (too easy sliding in / out). My logic says, all the gear changes (including R) would be affected in that case though.


What do you think?


Thanks,


Ozzie

Quick update :


I have talked to Erikkson (ZF Dealer) on the phone and they told me my issue sounded like a A Clutch Drum Flare.


Any opinions?


Thanks,


Ozzie

The symptoms are certainly similar. However, transmissions which left the production line at Saarbrucken after the middle of November 2000 were fitted with the stiffened A-clutch drum. The 10mm land main pressure regulator valve also largely fixed the pressure spike issue which was causing the earlier A-clutch retaining ring groove failures. As yours is a 2001 model it should have the stiffened drum fitted. Do you happen to know if its serial number (on the green plate rivetted to the LH side of the maincase) is greater than 355863?

https://i260.photobucket.com/albums/...psa16eca2b.jpg

https://i260.photobucket.com/albums/...reofgroove.jpg

https://i260.photobucket.com/albums/.../LaterDrum.jpg

https://i260.photobucket.com/albums/...psnw1hirxh.jpg

https://i260.photobucket.com/albums/...psxcqa552b.jpg

https://i260.photobucket.com/albums/...psod5bf3q6.jpg

Phil

I would look to see what it is but I am not sure it would be helpful because this transmission was rebuilt twice (car is almost at 210k miles) already. It's been 30k miles after it was built the last time and we have been driving it very gently since then. That is why I am a little surprised it would go bad so quickly.


I am reading the valve body 'orifices' may also cause some similar issues, so I will get the Sonnax valve body rebuild kit and replace everything next..


Thanks,


Ozzie

Another quick update :


I measured the main pressure valve that I replaced and it actually is the older model. It's replaced with the TransGo model anyway. So unless they put the new stuff in when they rebuilt my transmission, I may still have the old stuff in there (I'd doubt that)..



Also, after a bit of driving, I noticed that there is improvement in such a way that I can make the gear engaged in manual mode (when not engaged to D in auto mode) if I switch to 2 from 1.



I started believing my car is having fun effin with me at this point :)


Please let me know if you can make sense out of all this..


Thanks,


Ozzie

If I read correctly you removed and replaced the valve body keeping the old seals. The symptoms sound like loss of pressure so either a seal, the primary pressure solinoid or the whole valve body. Were that my transmission is replace the solinoid responsible for getting into 1st and all the rubber seals on the valve body.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Yes, I will do that next. I am looking for a valve body kit online. Unfortunately, they doubled the price from $135 to $270. Please let me know if you know a better deal.



Thanks,


Ozzie

It worries me that you would be speculatively chucking that much money at it, just hoping that the valve body is the issue. If at all possible, you’d be better getting the valve body tested first as a unit.

In case there’s any confusion regarding seals, both the GM 5L40-E transmission and the later ZF 6HP26 have rubber jump tubes that seal the hydraulic passages that pass between the casing and the valve body. For the ZF 5HP24, however, there are no rubber seals and it relies on the flatness & finish of the machined faces to provide a seal.

https://i260.photobucket.com/albums/...besin-situ.jpg
GM 5L40-E


https://i260.photobucket.com/albums/...umptubeout.jpg
ZF 6HP26


https://i260.photobucket.com/albums/...psksrofkuv.jpg
ZF 5HP24


Phil

Hey RRPhil,


I am not sure where I can get this tested in Chicago. I also do not have a garage so everything I do usually needs to be done in a day or so, so I do my best to fix things quickly.


I have noticed there are no seals at that location and I quickly researched and found out that is how it is supposed to be.


I will keep you all updated..


Thanks,


Ozzie

Hey RRPhil,


I am about to open up the valve body once again to replace the orifices and seals etc. (got the kit) and I would also like to do a vacuum test if possible. Do you have any resources for that process that you can share with me? Perhaps the vacuum test locations on the valve body?


Please let me know,


Thanks,


Ozzie

I’m curious which ‘kit’ you’re referring to. I’m not aware that Sonnax do a kit for the 5HP24. Do you mean the ZF 5HP24VBK valve body kit?

https://i260.photobucket.com/albums/...s26df0ae3.jpeg

I would certainly first check all valves for delamination of the anodised spool surfaces

https://i260.photobucket.com/albums/...psq1oj3hik.jpg

The two main wear areas are the main pressure valve and, to a lesser extent, the lubrication valve and Sonnax do an oversized replacement just for these two valves for the 5HP24.

https://i260.photobucket.com/albums/...ps12bfa809.jpg

https://i260.photobucket.com/albums/...ps0ff24a45.jpg

For the main pressure valve I would concentrate on the vacuum readings from these three worm tracks :

https://i260.photobucket.com/albums/...pshrbvpz2c.jpg

https://i260.photobucket.com/albums/...psb2843e75.jpg

I’d be interested to see the vacuum test result you get from the TransGo valve as I’m personally not convinced about its sealing capability

https://i260.photobucket.com/albums/...psxgpzztjh.jpg

https://i260.photobucket.com/albums/...psvsrbncqa.jpg

Phil

Hey RRPhil,


Yes, that is the kit I have and will be replacing everything in there including the wire harness I also purchased.



Thanks for all the great info once again.


I will let you know about the results for sure..


Cheers,


Ozzie

And finally an update after months :


I have been looking around to find another valve body to rebuild and found one from a junkyard. I have been getting many other parts from there for my X5 anyway. I also built my own vacuum testing device to be able to test things properly.


I rebuilt the valve body with the kit I had bought some time ago and vacuum tested the areas RRPhil showed me and everything looked good. I replaced the valve body with the one I had on the car and I still have the same issues. So it is obviously not the valve body at this point that causes the delayed engagement issues. Car still has no engagement issues sometimes (meaning it does not engage at all once in a while) but once it engages after several shifting up and down manually (1 to 4 then back to 1 usually helps) I can drive without any issues for the rest of the day which still makes me believe there is a pressure issue.


What else could be the problem? The fluid / filter combination can cause this? I have been using a Duralast filter (and Castrol Transmax import fluid) and I saw some people had problems with that filter or any other non-original one. Would an original Filtran filter make a big difference?



Also, is it possible to measure the pressure inside the transmission somehow?


I am aware that I may have to eventually look into rebuilding my transmission but until then I would like to eliminate every possible issue.


Need more feedback please..


Thanks,


Ozzie

I know it's been a few years, but I was really hoping to hear some resolution to this problem.


As I've recently experienced a similar issue where my 2001 X5 4.4L simply goes into "neutral" after sitting for a while in drive. The dash readout says "D", but the engine revs without the car moving. Moving the gear shift "fixes" it, and it drives fine.

Mine was the same and it was (in order of problems) mechatronic gearshift, transmission valve body mechatronics.

I'll see if I can find my posts and link them into this thread.

Sent from my SM-A730F using Tapatalk

Have you had the fluid level checked?

Found it....

https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink/top...ink_source=app

Sent from my SM-A730F using Tapatalk

I just replaced the fluid and filter a few months ago, and I haven't seen any leaks. So I'm guessing it's fine. But, obviously, I'll check it before I dig into the transmission.



But it wasn't having any issues before the change.


And before anyone asks, I used the Pentosin ATF1

Thanks for coming to my rescue! So, I don't have any warning lights. Like NONE.. I know that's funny for a BMW. But I'm curious what you're symptoms were like. Mine is fine, unless I sit with my foot on the brake, in drive, for at least several minutes. Then I'll notice a subtle rpm change, and it no longer "creeps".. it seems like it's in neutral. Engine revs, but no movement. I didn't try revving it for a long time, or at higher rpm as I didn't think it'd be helpful to burn a clutch, or have it slam into gear. But moving the gear selector popped it back into gear and it's fine after that.


Was yours similar?


Could you elaborate on "Installed new magnetic switch in the valve body and did mechatronics adjustment, plus code reset"


part # for magnetic switch?

I thought "mechatronics" was another name for the valve body? Is there an adjustment in there?

I have a customer car that doesn't love the exact position of the gear shift. It acted in neutral when the handle read R. Moving from P to N back to R with gusto fixed it. I haven't had it happen again but it "felt like" a linkage problem where the L1-4 switch engaged R but the mechanical innards not so much.

On the shifter problems it was the mechatronic switch 1st (switch not replaceable) then the interlock cable (fixed with new shifter) on the transmission it was the magnetic switch on the valve body mechatronics (replaced with yard part) I then decided to drive the hell out of it since it was acting like new (didn't last) I ended up killing my B clutch, which is apparently uncommon as most people kill their E clutch.

Sent from my SM-A730F using Tapatalk

Ahh OK thanks for the clarification!


Appreciate the advise. Like anyone else, I'm hoping I don't have to tear into my transmission.