Quick ZF5HP24 question..
 

I am planning to rebuild the ZF5HP24 on my X5 4.4 01. I have found a used one but it is from a 7.40 and the serial number ends with 022 instead of 029 on mine. I am simply planning to rebuild this and replace it with the one on my X5. Would it be compatible? I was told the transfer case would not match but I would like to have more opinions..


Thanks,


Ozzie

The tail housing and output shaft would be different. Other than that, I believe the two ZF5HP24's are the same. You can not simply swap in the 740i transmission unless you plan to leave off the transfer case and make a custom driveshaft so that you can run 2wd. That would be more effort than simply rebuilding the transmission. Likely, it's a new o-ring, thrust bearing, and shim that is easy to access once you have the front cover off. Full transmission rebuild might not be necessary.

I did the full rebuild last year. It was "fun" and a learning experience. Find the service manual for the ZF5HP24 on the internet. Make sure you order the right parts. I ordered a ZF5HP24A filter on accident.

Thanks for the quick reply. So, I will look around for the X5 version of the transmission. (There is actually one on an X5 at the junkyard but Chicago is freezing and I do not feel like trying to get that out of it by myself)

This meanwhile is after a rebuild of my valvebody hoping that it would fix things but there are still issues with the transmission including the D delay and engagement issues when cold. So I am thinking it is time to put a rebuilt one in unless there is another solution that you may be aware of.



Thanks again,


Ozzie

Additionally, the main casing and selector shaft are different on the 022 & 029 models because the X5 has the selector lever/cable and the inhibitor switch mounted on opposite sides of the casing (cable on LHS, inhibitor switch on RHS) so it features a long selector shaft that passes through the full width of the casing to connect the two, whereas the 022 model has them both on the same (left hand) side, so it only needs a short selector shaft

Phil

When they rebuilt the valve body, did they also replace the solenoids with new ones?

I just pulled the transfer case off a 328xi today solo on jack stands. I might be convinced to help a brother out yanking a transmission.

I have rebuilt the valve body myself picking up another one from another X5. I have used a rebuild kit, tested the valve body with a vacuum tester as well as the solenoids. Their impedance were good and were working fine when voltage applied.


I guess now it's time to find the same transmission and work on that one.



Thanks,


Ozzie

Thanks for the kind offer for help. How difficult is to take one off from an X5 anyway? I have been reading about the details when people are taking them off to rebuild and put back. I am hoping to simply take it off from another car ($150 or so here at a junkyard for a transmission) and work on it slowly and hopefully replace it with what I have on my car late spring.


I am very angry at the previous guy who rebuilt this because it has only been 30k miles (of easy driving) and I believe a transmission should not break that quickly..


Thanks,


Ozzie

The yard won't pull the trans if you offer to pay them? Perhaps the yard know of some pickers that is willing to help you pull the trans if you pay them.

I thought about that too. I will ask and see what they say..


Thanks,


Ozzie

Update :


The rebuilt valve body is in with new transmission fluid (Castrol LL01) and original BMW filter (and a new neutral safety switch). There is still a delay in D engagement. Even after the engagement feeling, there seems to be slipping problems until the transmission heats up. Once it's hot, there are no problems. I am guessing the o-rings etc. became brittle and start functioning good enough when hot to engage better and move the car.



Looks like the next to consider is a transmission replacement at this point. I am looking for one to pick up for cheap and rebuild it myself..


Thoughts and feedback still appreciated..


Thanks,


Ozzie

Sound more like you don't have the correct amount of fluid in the trans. ATF expand when it get hot and contract when it is cold. What was your procedure in refilling the trans?

What sort of fluid? LL01 is an engine oil spec..... And I don't know of a Castrol transmission fluid rated for use in a ZF transmission.. (but I don't know much!).

I tried to follow the procedure I have been reading everywhere..


- Fill up when cold until slight drip of oil
- Start car, switch gears to circulate oil and fill up more as the car runs until slight drip again.
- Make sure the transmission temperature stays in between 30c to 50c.


The transmission temp maybe slightly higher at the end because I was doing the whole thing by myself and I was transferring fluid from the big bottle to the small one to be able to use the pump.


Should I try to add more fluid when the transmission is around 30c?


Thanks,


Ozzie

My apologies for the misinformation. I used Castrol Transmax Import Multi-Vehicle which I believe should be ok..


Thanks,


Ozzie

Did you have both ends of the car jack up and level or did you just jack the front of the car up?

I think you have the temp to HIGH. That mean the ATF has expanded so you will have less ATF when the trans cool off.

Here a website for the procedure.

https://www.thectsc.com/5hp24-transm...vel-procedures

Yes, car was on a lift actually and it should be level..


Thanks,


Ozzie

It seems that both Castrol Transmax Full Synthetic Multi-Vehicle ATF and Castrol Transmax Import Multi-Vehicle ATF both meet the Esso Type LT 71141 specification, so they should be god to go in the ZF 5HP24. :thumbup:

I wish the ZF 6HP26X was so forgiving... :rolleyes:

I would let the engine sit over night so you know that you are dealing with a trans at ambient temperature (Hopefully the ambient temp in your location is below 30C).

Start the engine up and run through all the gears. With the engine still running open the fill plug to the trans and fill it till the fluid starts coming out.

The ATF temp should be around 30C or below. If you have it fill up you don't need to add any more ATF at this point.

Now monitor the ATF temp and observe the ATF dripping out of the fill port.

Once the ATF reach 35C put the fill plug in. The trans should be at the correct level.

I will definitely try this but do you think it would make a difference? I am reading the expansion of transmission oil with heat is around 0.07% increase in volume per degree C for atf oil. That means if you have 10qts of oil at 30C, you will have appx 10.49qts at 100C. Would that really create such delay?


Thanks,


Ozzie

Do the math in reverse. You have 10 quarts of ATF at 50C (assuming the ATF is flowing out of the fill hole) what will you have at 20C or 0C in the winter.

Google symptoms of low ATF in a ZF trans and you should find the answer to your question.

I have read where people will slightly over fill by performing the top off at 20-25c (best to monitor temp with scanner) or lift the fill side of the transmission slightly higher by being on a sloped driveway or one notch higher on the front jack stands.

As up all night pointed out, the fluid amount is changing from about zero to maybe 100c, so 100°c difference. It's the 70° difference above the cold fill that makes the bigger volume difference. I would definitely re check the fill level while temp is about 25c

We have the temperature at 30f (almost 0c) right now in Chicago. When I looked at the Gearbox temp with INPA, I saw 15c in the beginning before the car start. Would there be a problem with the temperature sensor or ATF fluid being warmer inside the transmission than outside is normal?

A broken temp sensor (not sure where it is located in this case) would affect the performance in any way?
I am also curious if a clogged transmission cooler would somehow affect transmission itself?


Sorry, I just have too many questions and I appreciate you guys sharing ideas for sure..


Thanks,


Ozzie

Ok I just remembered the temp sensor is on the solenoid cable group and I have installed the new one with the rebuilt valve body, so it should be working fine..



Thanks,


Ozzie

If the sensor was off and giving a colder or lower reading to the computer, the upshifting will be held a little bit longer in order to warm up the ATF and gearbox. You may notice this in cold weather where the first shift from 1-2 is held a little bit longer.

15c sounds about right for a cold transmission, even with the outside ambient temp being 0c. There's a lots of "insulation" from the cold - it would likely take days for the transmission internals to cool to near-ambient temps.

You can see this with your coolant temp too (easier to check, as it's on the cluster BC) - it's never down as low as ambient. Or mine isn't anyway...

Possible the gearbox still a little warm from last drive? Else I would definitely look into that sensor. As Ian described the gearbox long shifts when cold. Some cold wi mornings I wonder if I'm ever getting second gear during my first few minutes of hehehe like gentle warm up the car driving

@wpoll. 0 C has a way of sucking head out of things pretty quick.

I would not be surprised to see a 10 or 15 C difference from ambient after five or seven hours if the ambient temperature is more like 15 or 20 but it’s 0° I’d be surprised if after overnight it’s more than 5°C even know there’s a lot of space most of it is very conductive metal it’s not very insulating. That said it probably starts at temperatures cost to 120.

I will see what my transmission temperature looks like compared to Ambien tomorrow morning

The torque converter hold the bulk of the ATF and that fluid is inside the trans next to the engine. It will take quite some time for the ATF in the torque converter to give up its heat. That is why I recommend to let the car sit over night before working on it. If you have to drive the car to the garage to get on a lift the drive will most likely warm up all the ATF again.

Here is another thing I noticed today when I was looking at Transmission values with INPA. EDS 1 (Main Pressure Solenoid?) actually gets the power delayed when I put the car on D. So I suspected the transmission module but same thing happens with two different modules. Is it possible two different transmission modules would have the same problem? Would something else in the circuit affect their function and delay things?


Meanwhile, the ATF temp was at 15c after staying overnight and the sensor inside the valvebody is brand new (the sensor on the solenoid cable, correct?) so I am not so sure about inaccurate reading. Is there another sensor that I am not aware of?


I am going to start believing my car is possessed soon :)


Thanks for all the ideas once again,


Ozzie

The EDS1 (green cap) solenoid works in the opposite way to the other four (black cap) proportional pressure control solenoids in the transmission. The black cap solenoids increase hydraulic circuit pressure in proportion to the current supplied to them. The green cap (EDS1) solenoid does the opposite. It produces maximum main system pressure when there is no current applied to it and the pressure then reduces as current is increased. This is so that, in the event of an electrical failure, the transmission can limp home in failsafe mode (4th gear) operating at full pressure.

https://i260.photobucket.com/albums/...EDS1_photo.jpg

https://i260.photobucket.com/albums/...ement/EDS1.jpg


As you rightly said, the transmission fluid temperature sensor is taped into the internal wiring harness.

https://i260.photobucket.com/albums/...pset7szos6.jpg

https://i260.photobucket.com/albums/...turesensor.jpg

https://i260.photobucket.com/albums/...WiringLoom.jpg

This is the only temperature sensor for the transmission fluid but theoretically a default value from the engine controller, which is derived from the engine coolant temperature, provides an alternative for the transmission controller to use if this PTC sensor fails. In my experience the sensor reads ‘high’ at lower temperatures. You can see in the graph below that it starts reading at 30°C even when the engine coolant temperature is down at ambient. This was measured two days after the engine was last run

https://i260.photobucket.com/albums/...cteristics.jpg

Phil

Thanks for all the great info. I was reading 25c today in the morning (outside temp was around 10c in Chicago) for ATF and you are saying it is probably normal.



When I looked at how the EDS Solenoids work, what I saw was :


1, 2 and 3 were active at P (744 mA, 780 mA and 780 mA current on each). When I put the car on R or D, I see a brief fall of current on EDS 1 (no change on 2 or 3) down to 650 mA quickly, then head back up to 744 mA briefly, then down to 284 mA and back up to 744 mA. All this takes almost 2 seconds. You can not feel this with R but D has a kick to make it obvious. This makes me think the delay is actually happening at the electronic level rather than fluid pressure. But as I mentioned before this happened with two different modules. As another question, low fluid levels can affect this?


Thoughts?


Thanks,


Ozzie

Quick ZF5HP24 question..
 

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My transmission oil temp matched ambient temp after sitting overnight.

Edit: I ran the car about a minute before realizing so there's a slight difference showing between radiator out (ambient) and transmission. I'm going to look it up before I start the car today.

Let me quickly ask. Which Foxwell do you have? Are you happy with it? Comparable to INPA?

Don't mean to split hairs but that's the inlet temp, not ambient. On my car at least, the inlet temp always seems to be higher than ambient too! ;)

And BOTH are suspiciously close to the 15Deg.C that most of us see as the minimum reported trans temp.... :dunno:

Just sayin' :thumbup:

Quick ZF5HP24 question..
 

I goofed actually. The radiator outlet shoes ambient temp not the instake air.

Looking again it was 52 ambient and 57 trans temp but the engine ran for about a minute before I realized I wanted to get the temps.

57f=13.889 c which is close but lower than 15c. 15c is exactly 59 f.

I'll try to get a reading this am to see if it's lower. The overnight temp was below freezing so it should be in the mid 40s in the garage.

You got to resize your picture so that they will fit the webpage without having to scroll it

Quick ZF5HP24 question..
 

That's tap a talk's fault. I'm over 5100 posts I know what I'm doing but a recent update to tapatalk allows multiple photo selection for uploads and if you use it, it skips the resize option.

I use tapatalk for viewing and it auto sizes so I can't tell. Piss poor programming on both tapatalk and vbulletin (that doesn't scale down large photos)

Quick ZF5HP24 question..
 

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So overnight 11 hours, the car inside was 53, the coolant was 54 and the transmission was 55. The ambient was 48. I think a handful of people must have recently left the 12 bay garage and let in a batch of 30° air and that the average temp of the garage was closer to 54/55 overnight.

55f is under 13c so there is no baseline which would make very little sense.

Somebody out there must live where it's 0f etc and has a scanner.

I know with Vbulletin if the image file is too large it will not allow you load an image file. You'll need to resize the image file before it will allow you to attach the file. Probably the tapatalk that is the problem.

Tapatalk auto resizes if you do one image at a time. Vb stupidly does not scale to fit it’s the combination caused the problem you witnessed


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Here is an update :


I was able to add almost a quart more of transmission fluid when the temp was around 30c. I had similar delay issues right after that yesterday but when I started the car in the morning today, there was no delay on D or R in the beginning and it seemed to engage nicely until.. I did some shifting through gears for 10 minutes or so and eventually the delay was back.

So, should I try to add more fluid right around that time? Would something in the transmission system kick in and the delay would start after some fluid gets directed there? Does the transmission cooler immediately circulate the fluid or become active after the fluid heats up a little which may lower the fluid amount in the transmission?

Thoughts?

Ozzie

If you followed the procedure for filling the trans it tells you to go through all the gears and pausing at the gear. This will allow the ATF to flow through all the nooks and crannies in the trans. Sounds like you are still a little low.

Yes, I did that many times indeed before the fill. Now my car's transmission engages nicely when it is a cold start and then the delay and engagement issues eventually happen over time.


Thanks,


Ozzie

If the problems only come after warm up indicates ab viscosity related issue. Seal wear will lower pressure. Are your able to read realtime solinoid pressures you can compare to somebody else that doesn't have the issues

Not sure how I can read those.. INPA can show if they are activated and the amount of current on some but other than that I am not aware how to check the pressure on those..



Thanks,


Ozzie

Whatever reading: voltage, current etc to compare with other people

Are you manually shifting the trans or does it do this when you go from drive to reverse?

Here is what is happening right now (as it happened yesterday).

- I start the car, first thing in the morning and the transmission engages when I put on D immediately and I can drive around nicely for a while. Same thing happens when I manually put on gear 1.

- The engine (and transmission) warm up slowly and at one point (not fully warmed up), when I come to a stop for lights etc. , the slipping starts. I drive the car gently and manually switch up to 4 (and back to 1) to keep it going slowly. Most of the time this works as long as I keep going at a slow speed. Engagement would be back to normal.

- If I come to stop and go to P at a parking area etc. , when I put the car back on M1 or D, transmission may not engage until I manually shift up and down or sometimes if I go back to P and put back to D again.

- Once the transmission engages and warmed up, I can drive without problems both manually and in automatic.

I have followed the proper procedures I read on the internet but all this still makes me believe there is not enough fluid in there. I will try to add more fluid by raising the fill side up to see what happens next, I guess..

Thanks,

Ozzie

Here is something interesting I came across today as I was doing more reading. Someone with similar symptoms was told to check out a piece called 'pump volume control valve'. This part seems to be adjusting the pressure before the fluid gets to the valve body.



Is it worth looking at? Is is accessible without pulling the transmission (looks like it's kept in there with a bolt)?.


Thoughts?


Thanks,


Ozzie

The required pump displacement (in this case, 16cc/rev) is set by the flow requirement at tickover.

https://i260.photobucket.com/albums/...08/OilPump.jpg

As the 5HP24 uses a positive displacement pump, when the engine revs rise there is an abundance of flow, much more than the transmission needs, and the flow regulating valve serves to cap this at 48 litres/min.

https://i260.photobucket.com/albums/...atevsSpeed.jpg

The clever bit is that, rather than simply bleed the excess flow off to the sump (as stated, incorrectly, in the ATSG document that you attached), the flow is actually diverted back to the suction side of the pump so that it is recirculated and therefore the power used to produce the excess flow is not wasted. This also reduces cavitation in the pump and therefore noise.

https://i260.photobucket.com/albums/...ntrolValve.jpg

I personally have never come across a single instance of a problem with this valve, but I guess there would be no harm in removing it to check.

https://i260.photobucket.com/albums/...ingValve-1.jpg

The uncompressed spring length should measure 82mm. You may struggle to get the actual piston out, because it’s a very close fit in its bore.

Phil

Thank you Phil, I knew you were following. :)

I also know I will have to replace the darn transmission eventually but I would like to look at everything else before I will have to do that. (also waiting for Chicago weather to warm up)..


Cheers,


Ozzie

Here is a quick photo of what I saw inside the bore. The spring looked ok but I had trouble taking the piston out. It felt stuck in there. I will try again soon.



Thanks,


Ozzie

How much total fluid have you put into the trans? My zf 6hp19z took a full (every drop) 7 liters to fill.

Fill procedure:

1. remove fill plug and fill trans while cold, engine off (took 3.25 liters), install fill plug
2. start engine and run it for 30 seconds, shut off, remove fill plug and fill more (took 2 liters), replace fill plug
3. start engine and monitor trans temps, at 30C start cycling through the gears while the trans warms up
4. at 40C, leave the engine running, remove fill plug and fill the trans again (took remaining 1.75 liters), when a stream is coming out replace fill plug and torque to spec (6hp19z is 24ft lbs)

If at any point the trans reaches 50c, insert the fill plug and wait for the trans to cool back down to 40c. The goal is a small stream coming out at 40c.

If you are stopping the engine to fill it, you are doing it WRONG.

Filling a trans that has been drained, you fill the trans with th engine off until it starts to come out the fill hole. Place the plug back onto the pan and start the engine up, Go through all the gears with the engine running. With the engine still running (trans in PARK) remove the fill plug and pump ATF into the trans until it start to come out of the fill hole. The temp shouldn't exceed 35C. Once th temp is at 35C replace the fill plug back into the trans. At this point, the trans fluid should be at the correct level. The engine needs to be running so that the trans pump is turning. Shutting the engine off with the fill plug out will cause ATF to be dump out of the trans.

You can do it either way. I didn't want to have to pump ~4 liters into the car with it running. Adds more opportunity to overshoot the 40c-50c on the trans that ZF calls for. Starting the engine for 30 seconds gets the pump to circulate what you put into the pan through the trans so you don't have to do the whole fill with the car on.

As to the 35c number. As above, ZF disagrees with you. My trans is shifting better than before at 186000 miles. Soooooo... what can I tell you? The method I used works, and is used by others as seen below, again on the 6hp19z.

https://www.bmwrepairguide.com/bmw-e...es-all-models/

That said, ZF also wants 40c for final fill. I did not put in my instructions when to remove or install the fill plug as I thought it was obvious, I'll edit the post to add it in to avoid confusion.

Thanks guys. In any case, I do not think my issues are related to fluid levels since my R now shifts without a delay but D from P or N still has a delay and I still have engagement problems.


What is interesting is when I start the car in the morning, I actually have no delay on engagement for 2-3 minutes. I can put the car on gear and go until the issues start once it slightly warms up. And once the transmission is at working temp, at one point it starts working nicely and no more issues.


Right now, I am looking around for a used ZF5HP24 to rebuild and replace it with the one on the car. I will keep posting with the updates..


Thanks again,


Ozzie

Is there a particular reason that the filling procedure should start after 30c other than the fluid expansion which may cause overfilling when the transmission is hot?



Just curious..


Thanks,


Ozzie

I’m sure you already know, but just to emphasise that you need to make sure you get a 1058 000 029 model and not a 1058 000 034 (which is for the 4.6is).

https://i260.photobucket.com/albums/...odelNumber.jpg

Also, be sure not to get the 1058 000 032 model for the 4.4 V8 M62-engined L322 Range Rover, as it will not fit your E53.

https://i260.photobucket.com/albums/...psq2h6ilhb.jpg

Phil

Thanks Phil. I almost made the mistake of getting a 022 transmission from a 7.40. Now I am specifically looking for a 029. A junkyard that I am very close to in Chicago bring a lot of 01-03 X5 4.4s and give a good deal on one. I am simply following them..



Thanks,


Ozzie

Hey guys,


So, I am planning to do this transmission rebuild job soon. I am renting a garage with a lift for a week, hoping that it would be enough time to take it down, rebuild it and put it back in. I am hoping the take down would not take more than a day and once it is down, my hope is to quickly find the problem with A clutch drum, probably replace it with a new one (and the plates?) and do some further investigation inside the transmission.


So, which rebuild kit should I get for this? Should I get a new torque converter as well? And the full A clutch drum?



I really would like to hear from you about things that are important before I start the process..


Thanks,


Ozzie

I would say no to any revmax product. I received one of their rebuilts that had a major obvious assembly flaw that was missed by several 'QC' checks, and it would have been impossible for them to 'fully dyno test the valve body' in that exact state so there's no way to trust any of the marketing hype written from their website.

Try to see if SONNAX has a rebuild kit. I've used some of their performance products before on Chrysler transmissions with good results.

I am planning to get the rebuild kit from a ZF Dealer (Eriksson) but I am not so sure about the A Clutch Drum. They are selling the 'factory' version (and slightly expensive) and I am not sure that is the enforced model. Also, a well knowledgeable guy from there told me another piece at the back of the transmission is usually at fault for how my transmission is failing. (Part # 77.120/120)


Thoughts?


Thanks,


Ozzie

In Neutral the F-brake is engaged to hold the epicyclic geartrain stationary. When D is subsequently selected the A-clutch is engaged, the F-brake is released, and the 1st gear sprag takes over to provide the ‘earth’ for the geartrain. This is 1st gear i.e. A-clutch + sprag. The sprag earths the geartrain when the vehicle is accelerating but free-wheels when decelerating so there is no overrun braking in 1st gear.

https://i260.photobucket.com/albums/...pswnbncjcq.jpg

If you select Manual 1st rather than D, the F-brake remains engaged and this by-passes the sprag, so you will get engine braking in 1st gear.

Do you still get the engagement delay in M1 as well as D?

Phil

Hey Phil,


So that sprag is mostly about engine brake in 1st gear? I am not sure what you are asking exactly but the delay happens in both cases meaning if I put the gear on D and if I move the gear to D and then to M and 1 quickly. For M 2 to 1 shift, I also can feel some delay but it is not the same time delay all the time which may be getting affected by the speed of the car and my brake pedal pressure level as well..


Thanks,


Ozzie

Hey guys,


I am planning to start the rebuild next week. I will have a week to complete it so I would like to hear your experiences about what parts I would need ready (although I can still order things to receive in a couple of days in case of emergency). I purchased the rebuild kit (no clutch packs) and A / B clutch packs. Should I get a new Clutch A Drum in case? Anything else?


Please let me know,


Thanks,


Ozzie

Anyone? Should I go for a new torque converter as well?


Thanks,


Ozzie

generally a torque converter does not need replacement unless;
metal shards have contaminated the lube system
torque converter clutch is slipping or its dampening springs are worn
stator over-run clutch has failed
fails a stall-speed test.

Update after several months :

I rebuilt my ZF5HP24 this year in spring and finally got a chance to test it (I was rebuilding other parts of engine afterwards). Before the rebuild there was a big delay engaging 1st gear and that is fixed for sure. I thought it was all fixed until I got a chance to drive a little. Now, I have delay between 1st and 2nd gears. If I am driving fully automatic, car does not seem to engage 2nd (after 1st) properly but if I put on 1st directly and switch to 2nd, it switches and I can drive without problems.

I had rebuilt the valvebody before the transmission but the solenoids were never changed (tested ok).

What would be the problem? I know gears 1 - 4 are under Clutch A so that cannot be. I see 'E' brake engages at 2nd though. I am really hoping not to open up the transmission once again..

I have switched transmission computers and cleared adaptations as well..

Any ideas?.

Thanks,

Ozzie

Anyone? I was hoping to have RRPhil's attention about this. I see him responding to other postings. He must have finally had enough of my endless ZF problems. :(


When I check the solenoid / regulator responses I am seeing EDS5 always engaged although it's supposed to be only engaged fully on 2nd gear. I see E Brake is involved with 2nd gear. Anything related to that inside valve body or the E brake feed pipe could cause this? There is basically a big delay and thump when switching between (2-1 or 1-2) when I use M and in Auto mode the rev goes up and it does not want to engage for a while..


Cheers,


Ozzie