3.0d only priming intermittently
 

Looking for some help as I am at my wits end.

I have an intermittent starting problem with my 2006 3.0d.
When trying to start I get “Fuel injection system” warning come up and you cant hear the fuel pump prime.

So I then turn it off and try again until I hear the fuel pump prime. Once it buzzes the warning doesn’t come up and the car starts straight away. Some times it starts first go and sometimes it takes twenty turns. It is not getting progressively worst and does not show any sort of pattern.

I changed out the fuel pump thinking that it was the culprit but no change. I swapped the horn relay with the pump relay and no change. I have a Foxwell scanner but it is not showing any codes that offer any help.

Can someone tell me what tells the fuel pump to prime or offer any other suggestions to try?

Thanks

When you talk about fuel pump do you mean in-tank pump or inline pump under the vehicle?

DDE activates the relay for fuel pumps.

https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...-pumps/hVkPC3B

Thanks for the reply. I presume it’s the in tank pump I can here prime. Does the fuel pressure sensor have anything to do with telling the pump to work?

There are two electric fuel pumps on the M57TU 3.0d - one in the tank (as for the petrol E53 models) and another in the fuel line immediately after the tank, just before the fuel filter. The in-line pump actually looks a little like the fuel filter but the giveaway is that it has an electrical connector on it....

https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...l-pump/EF7Xpz7

Actually, there is a third electric fuel pump - for the auxiliary heater. Not relevant but just sayin' ;)

Yes I am aware of the three pumps. It’s the in tank pump that does not prime every time, but as soon as you can here it it ends up starting.

The in-tank pump (this was renewed?) is only needed when tank is below ~1/3 (transfers fuel from other side of the saddle tank. Inline fuel pump (Nr.1 in diagram) is what you can clearly hear when you turn on ignition. There is no sensoring for supply pressure on these with M57N engine so the only code it could give is for low rail pressure when there is not enough supply feed for HP fuel pump. DDE activates fuel pump relay feeding both electric pumps when you turn on ignition to pos. 2 and keeps it activated as long as engine is running.

https://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/sho...diagId=16_0567

Yes in tank pump replaced. So you do Not think the fuel pressure sensor has anything to do with it and I should replace the in line pump?

Do you mean rail pressure sensor? It has nothing to do with fuel pump relay activation.

If the in tank pump doesn't spin every time it's almost certainly at fault. You can test this by measuring voltage with back feed pins or poke through the insulation at the pump when you first try to start.

If you get voltage no whirr 100% the pump is bad. If you don't get voltage it's almost certainly the pump relay.

Those are the only two options I can. Think of that will give you your symptoms. Loose wire somewhere could give you a non whirr but that won't auto correct from just key off key on.

You could proactively swap the pump relay and see if that cures the problem but if it's intermittent that might just leave you stranded somewhere

I have changed the in tank pump and the symptoms are still the same. I also changed the fuel pump relay and that did nothing.

I have changed the in tank pump and the symptoms are still the same. I also changed the fuel pump relay and that did nothing.

New doesn't mean fixed. You need to verify that the in tank pump has power or not.

Can you please explain how to test then? I put a multimeter in the power coming into the top of the in tank pump (disconnected the plug and tested) and it was reading ok. Is that how u would test?

And fuel supply should work normally even without in tank pump if tank is more than half full. Inline pump (if working normally) has enough suction as long as there is fuel on the right side of the tank.

So possibly it’s the inline pump that’s at fault?

Yes, a strong possibility. Pierburg 7.50051.60.0 = OEM. If you renew the pump renew the fuel filter too because it's just beside there and the main job is to remove the bottom cover to get there.

Quite possibly - I have heard of them failing. Usually a total failure though - not like yours. Maybe check the wiring to it...

They aren't cheap... here's a decent price for an OEM unit on eBay.

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/BMW-E38-...0/174041869019

haha - snap! :thumbup:

Ok. Great. Thanks for the help. I changed the fuel filter when the problem first started but that also didn’t do anything. No one has mentioned the fuel rail pressure sensor? Is it possible that is causing the issue?

That is steep. Here in Europe I can get a new Pierburg for 130€.

Possibly a fuel rail pressure sensor but given it doesn't start when you cannot hear the pump.... ;)

I only mentioned it because you asked if a fuel pressure sensor could cause fuel pumps not been activated and the answer was negative.

That's the cheap one I linked to! They only go up from there... :rolleyes:

It seems it's not that cheap, it's even cheaper. :D

https://www.ebay.de/itm/Benzinpumpe-...oAAOSwUQBeI7Vt

They won't ship outside EU.... but yep, shopping around may lead to a better price, assuming the wait isn't a problem. :thumbup:

And if some sellers deliver to Australia the shipment costs are so astronomical that the end price is the same as on your ebay link. How many fuel pumps would fit in a sea container... ;)

Actually I checked our local postal service and they offer shipment for a package to Australia of max 11x36x60 cm, max 30 kg for 44,90€.

I had a new Fuel rail pressure sensor that I ordered months ago turn up today so I fitted it and no cigar. In line pump is on its way. Fucking hope that fixes it

No other ideas from anyone else?

Not a lot of 3.0d owners on this forum - and we are lucky to have Clavurion weighing in - he certainly seems to know the 3.0d (M57/M57TU) pretty well.

I guess it'll just be fit the in-line pump when it arrives and see what happens after that. I hate the "parts canon" solution but given the lack of fault indicators, I guess it's your only option right now... :confused:

So my new in line pump turned up today. Fitted it and was all excited to finally be back on the road, but unfortunately the problem is still there. Fuel injection warning is still coming up and after multiply turns of the key the fuel pump starts and the Warning disappears and then it starts. Can anyone offer any more suggestions?

Previously you said that you could measure voltage coming to in-tank pump and it still wasn't priming? So there are some discrepancies on this case. You would have to be systematic by checking if there really is voltage supply to pumps every time you turn on ignition. Most easily this would be measured on the fuel pump relay connector. Check if there is voltage on every turn and if not is the relay getting proper activation. And you had already renewed that relay (K96)?

https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...-pumps/hVkPC3B

https://www.pss-autosoft.net/diagram...s/G_120204.png

3.0d only priming intermittently
 

You need to measure voltage being applied at key on at the tank pump and the inline pump

Could a bad/dying battery cause this sort of issue? What voltage should it read at the pumps?

Yes. Swapped the relay already

Battery condition can't cause this. When ignition on pos.2 there should be battery voltage on the fuel pump relay and from there to both electric pumps. When measuring you have to remember that relay activation stays on for only 1 min if engine is not started. Then you have to turn off and on again to activate the relay.

On petrol models the in tank pump runs only about 6 seconds at key on but you can turn the key off and back on to test again.

You should be able to back probe the connector.

New does not mean fixed. You need to confirm voltage at pumps and also confirm pumps are pumping.

When you can not hear the pumps it does not start. Turn it on and off 5-10-15 times and then adventure my u hear the pump prime and then I know it’s going to start. As soon as you turn the key (position 2)the fuel injector warning comes up and the pump does not activate, it is instant. Likewise position 2 and then the pump sounds ( and no warning ) it starts.

If the pumps work some of the time at key on, check voltage on the control line of the fuel relay and also voltage on the key on terminal from the ignition switch

By the way does the coolant temp gauge jump to red when this problem occurs? This would indicate a possibility that DDE is not powered (would also mean no activation to fuel pump relay). Usually caused by DDE relay.

https://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/sho...diagId=61_4048

No. And I have spent the afternoon trying to test the voltage on the fuel pumps, relay and ignition but the pump will it start at all today. Argh!

If the pump isn't working then perfect time to check voltages. If the DME (or whatever it is called on the diesel) is not turning on the fuel pump relay then maybe consider that there is another condition that is not being met and you're problem has nothing to do with the fuel pumps.

Could it be a faulty ignition switch.

The warning you get is the same one as i get when i disconnect the aux heater.
try a 12v supply to the main pump.
When i get my motor it came cheap as no inside electrics worked.
checked fuses with a tester and all were ok.
Ended up being dirty legs on the fuses,new in all and every thing worked.

Just a thought.


Dave king

Thanks all. I notice a vary small leak under it last night and will investigate later. I did not look like oil, Could that possible be injector leak off? And could that maybe be the culprit?

I think you are seeking electrical problem


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Still no luck. Auto electrician couldn’t find it. I’m out of ideas. It will not start at all now and the temp gauge goes straight around to hot. Does this offer any other possibilities? Please��

Read post #40

I’m an idiot. I knew I had read that info somewhere but could not find it anywhere in the internet. Now I realise it was eight in my face 🙈

Tested all DDE related fuses and relays for continuity and they all seem fine.

Check you are getting power on pin #2 of K2003 (the DDE relay) when the ignition is on... should be labelled as "87" on the relay.

https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...-relay/eR6R7o8

If not, then either the DDE isn't turning on K2003, K2003 is faulty or there is no power on pin #6 on K2003 ("30") - via fuse F203.

*edit* Here's another diagram that might help...

https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...-relay/hXnOuh5

I would renew that blue DDE relay anyways. They are prone to fail so that they work intermittently and so that the coil pulls but contact doesn't work.

Cheers I will try that in the morning. Pull the relay and then put the multimeter into the slot pin six goes into ? Sorry my electrical skills are non existent


QUOTE=wpoll;1186273]Check you are getting power on pin #2 of K2003 (the DDE relay) when the ignition is on... should be labelled as "87" on the relay.

https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...-relay/eR6R7o8

If not, then either the DDE isn't turning on K2003, K2003 is faulty or there is no power on pin #6 on K2003 ("30") - via fuse F203.

*edit* Here's another diagram that might help...

https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...-relay/hXnOuh5[/QUOTE]

You would need to measure the voltages with the relay in place. You'll need to to get to the pins while sill connected. A small peice of thin wire?

Supply from the DDE relay also goes to fuse pack in E-box and from there to all engine sensors and actuators all having red/white wire. So you can for example remove the easiest being cam sensor plug on top front of engine and measure the voltage on that pin with red/white wire.

yes but did you test during one of the intermittent fail times. Dirty relay contact sounds like a solid chance.

Yes. This is why I suggested measuring from the easiest accessible location when the problem occurs. But again renew the relay as it's not that expensive and then it's ruled out.

The problem has now gone from intermittent to every time and the car can now not be started. I will do as suggested and see what I find. Thanks

So I tested the crank sensor as per suggested and when turning the key to position 2 12 volts where read. As soon as ignition is put into position 2 it pings and the fuel injector warning comes on. Sometimes it also flashes trans fail safe prog and transmission overheat warnings. Once you turn the key back to off it bings and flashes the fuel injector warning some more.

These new transmission faults are indicative of a low battery I’ve found, You may get a self.level suspension fail warning as well, these E53s go nuts with even a vaguely low battery! I’d stick the battery on charge overnight before attempting anymore fault diagnosis.

Personally I’d just leave it hooked up to the charger while you work as these 3.0d eat battery voltage when your cycling the ignition. Especially if your cranking it over as well, these diesels have big juicy starters to turn that high compression engine over so they munch battery charge!

Now the fault is persistent have you tried scanning for faults again to see if the car now has fault codes. If not I would continue with replacing the DDE relays, they are cheap from an motor factors and if they don’t sort the issue then you have a bag of spares. Obviously replace them one for one. You can simply remove them and read the code on the top for most, but if your unsure just take them to the shop with you! That’s what I do!

Finding a bad solenoid is a royal pain in the backside, as if it’s intermittent then it’s luck if you catch it when it’s not working, and the slightest knock or touch can cause the coil to energise again and poof your fault with it!! But as you say the fault has now become terminal so the electrical cause should be a lot easier to root out now.

I would start with the battery being charged fully and kept on charge while you work.

Then (as the car won’t start anyway) get someone to cycle the key on and check the relays detailed above. Or as I suggested just sling some new ones in... they are normally only a couple of quid from your local motor factors anyway.

Remember you are listening for an audible “click” from the relay as it energises so if your not sure how to test the old relays with a meter, just use your ear and get someone else to turn the key.

If you are unsure about a relays serviceablity you can also remove it, then use a piece of wire and bridge the “gate” manually. This basicly removes the switching effect of the relay and just makes it permanently “On”. But with this be ABSOLUTLY sure your bridging the right connections!

You can also check for the “trigger/signal” with the relay pulled as well. Using a multimeter stick the positive probe into the signal wire socket and then just pop the negative on some metal or a earth point. Then cycle the key and you would expect to see the 12v appear on the signal wire.

Once you have changed/checked all these relays I would then move to the next point of failure, the pumps.

To check these you have two options,

One use a multimeter and probe the contacts while the key is in the correct position for the pump to be on.

Two remove the connector, use some wire and a 12v battery and force the pump to run.
Option Two would be the undeniable proof that the pumps are working. I have a 12v motorbike battery for testing small Low power components exactly like this. And I just use some appropriate gauge speaker wire to stick into the connector. Obviously..... find out which pin does what first though! Only apply voltage to where it’s designed to go!!! You fry your pump that’s your own fault! (But equally it’s a simple +12v and - GND pump so I’d imagine it would just spin in reverse.)

Following this I would take a small bit of green scotchbrite or V Fine sandpaper and clean the contacts on both pumps connectors and pins if they look even a bit dirty. Same with your relays, if they are new relays you can get a watchmakers flat blade screwdriver and hold some v fine paper around it’s point and gentle clean the relay “socket” contacts. Not too much here just enough to take off any corrosion that may have formed. Again do at your own risk and make sure the keys out when you do it lol.

Now if you find that with option one you don’t have voltage to the pump that now indicates that the wiring is potentially damaged or for what ever reason your DDE is not outputting the correct signal. But these are both highly unlikely without other faults. so I would lead you test all components in the system before testing wiring integrity or looking at the DDE itself.


None of that was supposed to sound patronising btw! I just read in your previous post your not completely Au Fai with electrics! If it sounds rude just tell me to wrap my tits and I will!

It's far far easier to track down an always vs. intermittent problem so "phase one complete" (get the dammed thing to for real break). Straight forward diagnosis will find the problem.

Hahah. Yes phase one is now complete. Car doesn’t start ever now

So is the temp gauge now always jumping to red when you turn on ignition? Can you connect to all modules with diagnostics and what are the trouble codes? If DDE is powered and you can connect normally with diagnostics that temp gauge behaviour must be caused by failed CAN-bus connection between DDE and instrument cluster.

Yes temp gauge goes straight to red. 12v was showing on cam sensor when turning the ignition to position 2. I have a Foxwell scanner. I have not scanned for codes since the fault has become permanent. I will do what you suggested tomorrow and see what comes of it. It also (not everytime though) has a gearbox overhearing warning flashing up which I hadn’t had before.

Could it have anything to do with the temp sensor?

The gauge showing could of course be caused by failed temp sensor but that is very very rare on these and it would not cause any other symptoms.

Run the auto scan on foxwell. It does a better job of finding module erorrs.

Rescanned today on a few recommendations and below is what I found.

I did a scan and heaps of codes popped up so I deleted and scanned again.

Another thing I noticed today was when I turned it over to try and start the temperature gauge started to drop back down to cold.

-EGS Transmission management 5140 No message receiver EGS transmitter DME-DDE. I think is is related to the trans fail safe warning that is coming on as a result of the original issue.

-IKE instrument cluster electronics- IKE signal line disturbed


Do these codes offer any possible reasons to anyone?

It's saying there is a wiring problem. Short or open


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Ok still no luck. How the hell do I find a “wiring” problem?

Start with cleaning the connectors everywhere. TCM DME and importantly the transmission connector. Not sure how different those are on the diesel model but everything relies on them. You may find a bundle of wires that mice have turned into a nest


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Re scanned again today and got the following codes.
F6 Ike no CAN identification
F7 Ike no CAN identification
F8 Ike no CAN identification
8D Ike EGS signal line disturbed
44 Ike oil pressure sensor

5140 no message receiver EGS transmitter DME-DDE

I disconnected the ABS module as someone suggested this but it did not
Help. I have clean all the connects I can find.
Still
No start.

Appears something is shorting out the can buss. You may have to start unplugging modules to find it. What do you mean discount abs? Did you unplug that module


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Sorry. Disconnected the abs module. So you suggest I disconnect other modules? Such as ?

Still no luck. Pulled the dde , abs, ags and ike modules and still seem to have the Can bus issues. I believe the only thing using can bus that I haven’t pulled is the steering angle sensors. Does anyone know where/ how to pull this module?

https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...0d-sav/Ui1cyZi

https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...column/EVGG82L

Still no luck. I am starting to think that it may not be an electronically issue and that I should re investigate the initial fuel injector warning. Does anyone know how I can check the injectors for leak off with not being able to start the engine??? I know that the Foxwell can monitor the injector pressure. Will this help me? It’s driving me crazy!

Argh! Still not starting.
But I am starting to think that the can bus faults Are symptoms of the battery lossing power. Once the battery is full charged and then put back in the car and re scan the codes that appear change.

The only consistent code is 5140 no message receiver EGS transmitter DME-DDE And the fuel injection system warning and trans fail

Does this code represent The trans fail warning?

I tried to do some live monitoring today with my NT510 and the rail pressure was showing N/a?? Even when I tried to crank it over it did not change.

Does this help pin point anything?

Would a faulty fuel pressure regulator cause this? Would This flag a fault code?

Any input would be appreciated. I am sick of throwing money at it without luck.

How are you keeping the car powered? Battery charger?
Trying to start with anything less than optimum possibly could contribute to issues; or at least having a 50 amp power supply you could eliminate that one chance of it being part of the issue.

I have just been recharging the battery and then putting it back in when I have time to work on it

Quick note, a battery that has been charged and discharged “too many” times can “sag” under load. Charging excites the acids in the battery and can premature wear out a battery - I’m not at all saying it is the answer, but you may want to grab a new, fresh battery and a good battery charger or as deepblonde suggest, a starter box to make absolutely sure that you are maintaining correct voltage. I can assure you that my 05 4.4i is very picky when it comes to battery condition and voltage.

All that said, it would be an interesting test if you could somehow provide fuel and fuel pressure externally to “bypass” the in tank pump and the half full fuel transfer issue - that said, I’d Ha e to brain storm for a bit on how exactly to do that...

Apologies not more help at the moment, but I will see if anything pops in to my head [emoji106]


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Just on the off chance....

After so many times connecting to the OBD2 it is possible to crack the OBD2 block and not get connectivity to all modules and possibly ground out one or more wires giving you problems. (ask me how I know)

I found out only by accidentally wiggling the NT-510 cable in the plug because my DME wasn't showing. A trip to the boneyard and a long time under the dash fixed it.

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You need to test with more power. I fear your battery even when fully charged isn't supplying full voltage to the support modules and the starter.

Does it crank slower than normal and have you measured battery voltage during crank.

If you have a peak reading multimeter, measure the voltage from B+ under the hood to the positive in the cigarette lighter. Should be about 1 volt on a diesel (3/4 v on M54).

When a starter starts to fail it often just takes more and more current until the battery voltage sag is so bad you get abs or trans failure from low voltage.

Thanks for all the feed back. I will invest in a new battery and see what comes of that.

Before you install new battery, charge up the current battery and get a current draw on the starter. If the starter is worn or can pull double the current, over 600A and it'll pull the battery voltage so low it won't matter how good the battery is

Hey Kshamm - did you ever get to the bottom of this? I've essentially got the same problem and it's sending me a little crazy.

Hi Ausbmx. I’m sorry to say I never did. I ended up selling the beast to a guy that was pretty confident he would fix it straight away. He too has still
Not fixed it. My gut feeling in the end after all of my research and diagnostics was that the ecu had a gremlin and it was not worth the time
Or cost in repairing it hoping that it would work. Sorry I couldn’t share a more helpful response.

Ahhh damn! If you don't mind, can you remember all the things you changed/tried to resolve it? I get the feeling that it is likely electrical/ECU related too.

Next on my list are probably:
1: New fuel regulator on the back of the rail
2: Replace all relays, even if they test out okay.
3: Flow control valve on back of HPFP.
4: Go to the wreckers/junkyard and get another ECU and see what happens...

To summarize my issue first.

Car would not prime on turn the key to position 2, I would turn back and forth between position 1 and 2 until I could here the pump prime and then I knew it was going to start, this happen once or two a week in the beginning until eventually it would not prime at all.
It was throwing multiple codes but none that really helped


Tasks I tried to fix the beast ( If I think of anything else I did I will reply again)

New fuel rail sensor ( front of engine)
Checked/swapped every single related relay/fuse – visually and with a multimeter
New in tank fuel pump
New battery
New fuel filter
Removed/cleaned the injectors


Things that were next on my list before I decided to cut my loses



New fuel pump regulator ( the one that is fitted to the HP fuel pump)
A packet of matches ( to burn it to the ground)


Items that had been suggested to change/check but I never got to

New key


Like I said though, my gut feel was it was ECU related and I just was not going to keep throw money at it in the name of hope.

Ignition switch ??

Or maybe the ring antenna for the EWS?