HUGE engine problem!
 

Hey guys pls read the story and give your input..

2001
4.4L
120,000KM

I took a trip down to Seattle this weekend.
on the way there, on the I-5 doing about 80km(getting on a on-ramp), The X stalled for a quck sec., yellow ! light, abs, trac control, and ENGINE FAILSAFE PROG appeared.
I shut off the car and restarted it was normal...until another 5 min and same thing happend when STOPPING.
the lgihts went off and i continued to drive, and I went to pass a car and when i floored it, my check engine light flashed and stayed on.

I got to the hotel, and took on and off the connections to the battery and it was all fine, until on the way back home same situation; I depressed the accel to the floor and check engine light was blinking and then shut off...

MONDAY- i took it to Brian Jessel BMW
I got a call saying my bill is at $880 for diag(said that cyl 1 and 2 were misfiring the DIS sheet said that check engine kicks in at 5100rpm), new plugs, and checked to see if its the injectors...BUT THEY STILL DONT KNOW THE CAUSE PROBLEM!
The service advisor told me this" I think its best to trade in your car, if you want us to keep going it could be $5000min" What kind of advice was that!?
So I took my car and paid the bill but you can still hear the car misfiring if i rev it up just a bit through the exhaust.
Any idea on what it is?
Anyone else have something similar?

i would go to a good independent BMW mechanic if you could find one.

But doesnt BMW train their techs?
like i was suprised that you cant even find out whats wrong with the truck from the dealership...

Sounds serious hope it works out. But an indepandent might be a good choice.

yeah thats i guess waht i have to do on Monday

if theyll give another X5 to you at no cost since its their fault, go for it. if tey give you a bicuycle, dont take it, go to a BMW Independant mechanic

Yes, they train their mechanics, but like learning the piano, there are people who know how to play and there are Van Clyburn, Ray Charles, Billy Joel,etc

apparently the guy was a 18 year vet that was working on mine...

sounds like a classic VANOS or Cam Angle Sensor failure... and these guys are veterans??? of what? smoking crack? BTW.. if your CE light goes on.. Please STOP the car and call roadside assistance. if it is something more serious like overheating etc.. you could have done your motor in...

Get the vehicle to an intelligent mechanic. The on-board diagonistics are sophisticated and should be able to tell an intelligent mechanic where the problem is.

A compression check should be done to rule out a piston/valve problem (most compression problems occur gradually, not suddenly as in your case); absent a compression problem any fix should be non-major.

If you've had no serious mechanical problems to this point you've got a mechanically good engine and the dealer would just LOVE to talk/scare you into trading it in; don't do it; it's fix-able.

Houdaman -

$880 for what amounts to pulling up the engine scan codes and a $100 set of plugs? That sounds excessive to me. What exact services did they perform to hand you a bill of $880? Did you get a chance to talk face to face with the mechanic?

The engine failsafe prog is triggered by one of the sensors - cam position sensors, crank position sensors, oil pressure sensor, oxygen sensors, MAF sensor, etc. If all of these checked out, then it's possible the sensors themselves or the ECU could be failing. The DIS/MODIC printout didn't find a fault with any of the functions that the sensors monitor, but if one of the sensors are faulty, that may not appear on the printout.

Regards, Mike

plugs were 129$.
the rest was diagnostics and to find out where the problem was occuring, the swapped the injectors with others to see if that was the problem, and so on....basically the rest was tax and labour for what they "did"

As for the "face to face" part, the shop foreman came with me for a ride to see what exactly was happening and he was stumped himself.

ENGINE FAILSAFE PROG DOESNT appear anymore, now its just a flashing check engine light triggerd at 5100rpm, but you can hear the car misfire when its lightly being reved from the exhausts.

What do you think i should do guys?

Heres what im thinking so far...wait for until monday and take my truck to these guys www.nixonautomotive.com . they are a independent BMW shop that has been at the same place for over 20 years, and ill see what they have to say.

If it does turn out to be something simple.. what should i do about Brian Jessel BMW taking my $880!?

I would take a hard look at the cam and crank sensors- these are just a magnetic pickup, and if you have a bad one, they will not pick up a clean signal at high RPM. It seems to me if the trigger is high RPM. they should be able to look at the data stream and see the misfire trigger. Also, what is fuel pressure and volume? Maybe you have a fuel pump going south.

I feel relly sorry for your experience!Those guys at Jessel BMW not only conned you out of 880 usd but they still coildnt tell you what the problem is!
Where I come from at a reputable Bmw dealer you pay for material + labour and some diagnostic!Its ludicrous that They have charge you 129 usd for materials and 751 usd for diagnostic and labour!
They have to justify the labour charges?To change spark plugs=0.5 hr,to swap over injectors 0.5 hour,DIS diagnostic 0.5 hour.This cant add up to 751 usd!

My advice to you and what I would do.Take copy of your invoice for the 880 usd and write a letter/e-mail to BMW NA with your complaint explaining what you said here and what the guys at Jessel said that it would be better to sell the car or expect to pay 5000 usd.
Get BMW NA to recommend you a local BMW dealer to look at your car and advice you on your problem.

Doesnt make sense them having to swap over injectors when the DIS will be able to read the parameters and tell which are outside the normal readings!

Sometimes age has nothing to do with it. My dealer's mechanic must be in his mid 20's, but he really knows his stuff.

I've had nothing but problems with Brian Jessel, they're a bunch of crooks and I'll never take my bimmer back there, or buy another from them. Sorry about your problems, hope you get it worked out.

Yep get a second opinion and keep your accurate records. If the indepandent fixes the problem go back to the dealer and demand the return of your money. If they don't give it to you remind them of your options regarding legal action. Be nice but be firm.

alright, thanks for the advice guys.... but again its not USD, its CAN...i live in Vancouver BC, Canada!

Oh, and Jessel said they did check the fuel pump

I don't know anything about Nixon Automotive, but looking at their shop pix on the website, it looks like a place where I'd take my cars. Nice big clean shop with a whole lotta Bimmers! No MB, no Porsches, no Audis, no VWs.

If you find out there was a problem that Jessel either misdiagnosed or failed to diagnose, then I think you have legit beef since you spent so much money on failed readings and a set of plugs you may not have needed. It seems to me that they charged you the price of a half-assed inspection 2 service.

Here's the BMWNA contact numbers in case you need it:
Customer Relations
BMW of North America, Inc. Corporate Office
300 Chestnut Ridge Rd.
Woodcliff Lake, NJ 07675
201-307-4000
Toll free: 1-800-831-1117
Fax: 201-930-8362

Regards, Mike

UPDATE ON FEB 15/06

I talked to the service manager at Brian Jessel... They picked up the car, and did a compression test, leakdown test, and used some camera that they put through the spark plug hole to see damage...at no cost....but i got BAD news at the end.

Showed that Cyl 2 is leaking 8%...and Cyl 1 is leaking 28%
The camera showed scratches inside the cyl wall...could be possible crack in the block
HOW THE HELL DOES SOMETHING LIKE THAT HAPPEN AT 120,000KM on 4.4L!?!?!
He ssaid it will cost about $10,000 to fix! AND ITS NEVER EVER HAPPENED BEFORE!!!!!!!

Maybe I missed something- but how long have you had your X?

JV

i think it is a common problem with 4.4 at cold temperatures. there are about 4 cars with similar symptoms over the last month on the russian bmw forum. it has something to do with a pipe which can be heated as a option but most people don't take this option. i didn't read all the details there as my X is not V8 but i will try to pass you their experiences on that. anyone here can translate technical terms from russian to english? i could just pass you the link.

Diesel Disaster
 

Need some URGENT advice.

My brother in law has accidentally put unleaded petrol in his BMW 320D. It ran fine and then this morning, wouldnt start. He only realised his error this morning so by then it was too late to just syphon the tank dry as the damage has been done. He has been quoted £2k to fix this!!!!!!

Its the last model 3 series not the bangle-spangle version.

Has anyone had this happen to them. Any experience you can pass on would be appreciated!!

And I know what your'e thinking - it wasnt me it really was my brother in law (how he didnt notice as the diesel nozzles are black and the unleaded nozzles are bright green!!!)

Did you see the camera shots or did they just tell you that's what they saw? After the initial comment from them about trading in your X5 I would be a little suspicious. At the very least get a second opinion on the compression test since that shouldn't cost too much.

:hijack: How about starting you own thread to ask this? Your question isn't remotely related to the topic of this thread.

Looks like they have doubled their estimate!Get a second opinion!

By saying "leaking",they are implying that its loosing compression and this has to go somewhere!
You can do a simple test yourself!With th engine on,pull out very slowly your oil DIPSTICK .If you see condensation or light smoke blowing out,your car is loosing compression thru the pistons!

If your Block was cracked,you would probably have compression in your coolant and your coolant reservoir would be bubbling and spitting the coolant out and your car would overheat !

Those scratches on the cyl. wall may just be superficial due to the piston/segments movement!

Yeah sorry!!! I meant to and then I went back to look for the one I started and it was nowhere to be seen. Then I got an email to tell me someone had replied to this post and I figured I had done this.

Sorry - will restart in other post.....but no need to be so angry dude!

No anger, just advise.

Powers1 is right on the mark with his comments. 22% loss in one cylinder indicates there is a problem, but the fact that they still haven't identified the specific cause in 2 visits while the service advisor is suggesting a new short block is just plain wrong. That's like telling a patient with a heart palpitations it's time for a transplant. Take the truck elsewhere (like Nixon Auto) and get an opinion from a second source.

alrgiht guys, thanks again ill keep you all updated

sell it!!!

I would have taken their advice at any point during this exercise. I have had excellent results with Jessel, over three vehicles of my own and others in the family. The service manager is good, and so is the customer relations manager. Interesting that they decided to do further investigation on their dime after the first round didn't find anything. That is the type of service that I have received in the past there.

The boroscope is showing cylinder wear, but it isn't clear to me whether it is a ring problem or whatever. You can have a look at the pictures, but you won't likely see a root cause, just distress on the cylinder wall.

Have Jessel (or an independent) pull the head so you know what the real problem is.

And skip BMWNA, they don't cover Canada, just USA. Not sure why you would call the manufacturer in any case, for a vehicle that is well out of warranty. The service is coming from an independent business, not from BMW. And Jessel is very highly rated on the customer satisfaction stats.

Good luck.

Get a second opinion. While 28% leakdown is higher than you should see, it is not astronomical. I have seen engines with 75% leakdown on one cylinder (4 cyle motor) that ran just fine. Also, you can play with leakdown numbers depending on how you test it. It isn't unheard of for a mechanic to do this.

Quick question...
If i do decide to trade it into a dealership, lets say Nissan...Its not my responsibilty any more, is it?

Yes it is. You can't lie about the condition of the engine and not expect them to come back at you.

You can tell them it has a high-speed miss, and let them take their chances on whether it is a simple problem or an expensive one, but realize that they are going to wholesale it off anyway. By telling them you get to sleep at night.

Its your conscience!They will buy the car as they find it!Its up to you if you decide to tell them?Howver ,if you problem is very noticeable ,they will find out anyway!

Just be careful on what trade papers they make you sign!