No brake pedal, at wits end...
 

Ok, here’s what happened...


“OH SHIT – NO BRAKES”, as I blew through that red light and rolled uphill (thank goodness) into the parking lot of firehouse subs where I was able to use the parking brake to get myself stopped. From that point I straightened myself and regrouped for a minute before realizing I had no pedal, at all and no brakes, I could STAND on them and get the X stopped, but I was full into and (maybe) beyond the “emergency circuit”.
Knowing that I was limited to standing on the pedal and anything else that I could do with the parking brake, I set out at a whopping 5 miles an hour home, with my hazards on, giving myself ppllllleeeeeeeeeeennnnttty of space between me and the car in front of me (thank goodness again that it was after dinner and light traffic). :(



Getting it home I diagnosed no vacuum from the pump and very quickly after that replaced it – to which end I got vacuum at the pump, check valve and booster, but still had no brakes. :stickpoke



Digging in further I was led to the booster, no power assist, would pump up ok with the car off but the instant the car started, straight to the floor, so I replaced the booster, and still no pedal, but the symptoms were different. :nanana:



With the new booster, the brakes felt great, amazing, but if you sat for any period of time (30\45 seconds) with your foot on the pedal, it SLOWLY sank to the floor, but the car stayed still, however, just slowing down they felt perfect or for just a quick stop at a stop sign where you could see all 4 corners were open they were perfect. :dunno:



Diagnosing that issue we determined that we had (potentially) nicked the o-ring in the master cylinder during an “aggressive” bleeding procedure and that we needed a new MC. :o



Replacing the MC, we were re-presented with the vacuum at booster but no power assist that we diagnosed to a failed internal diaphragm and replaced the booster for the second time. :bawling:



Replacing the booster and re-installing the MC, we were unable to bleed the front brakes, no fluid flow at all, not even a trickle – I have no idea how, but the manufacturer determined that the internal proportioning valve had failed closed on the front circuit… I didn’t even know that was a thing… :doh:


So anyway, now with the new, new MC on, I have a total shit pedal, but it is “driveable” and it does “stop” but it isn’t fun to drive and after nearly 3 days of bleeding, again, and again and again and trying a pressure bleeder, followed by a suction bleeder, followed by manually bleeding, I still have a total shit pedal, that stops the car, but renders it almost un-driveable because you don’t really know if it’s going to stop the car. The strangest thing is it takes no foot pressure at all, I mean it’s like magic power assist, I can run the travel out of the pedal to the point where the brakes do begin to engage and they work just like normal brakes, but in less than a single inch of overall travel. :banghead:



I’m stumped – at this point I’m thinking air, somewhere and have built a recirculation pump to constantly run (not under pressure or sealed) brake fluid from each caliper back to under the level of the brake fluid in the MC so that it can just circulate fluid and let the air come to the surface…
What am I missing here? Many thanks in advance!!

#1. I’m glad you, and everyone around you is ok!

Man..! I hope that doesn’t happen to you ever again.


E53 RiPPeR
XOuTPoST jUNkiE
ReVELaTiON 22:21

Thanks Happy!! That was my thought as well, it was literally perfect timing, I was at the intersection with at least 5 cars sitting to my right, waiting for their light to turn green so they could go left. I was just far enough off as it went red to not be able to "hurry through" and when I went for the brakes (which usually stop on a dime (or less)) I had nothing - straight to the floor, didn't even tickle my foot... had I been 3 seconds later (edit: gods honest, probably less) - 3 seconds... their light would have been green and the poor soul who was in front of me at that time would have been right at their drivers door... Someone was sure looking out for someone - for sure!! And the Firehouse subs driveway being uphill, yea, that always happens, it truly was amazing! :yikes:

Did you do the bleeding with diagnostics so pre-charge pump and DSC valves are activated?

Not 100% sure I remember correctly but I kind of remember that the rod for the booster had piece (clip/spring type) that came off when assembling and caused pedal problems.

I'll try to see if I have any of the old pictures on my old phone.

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Using my Foxwell NT510... finally gave up and called an indie that I trusted, he couldn't figure it out so he didn't charge me anything (I insisted he take something for his time, he did) and I took it to another guy that I've worked with since I've owned it and they couldn't figure it out either.


The second shop that I took it too got great flow and pressure when bleeding, but when they closed things up and started it the next morning, it was shit again (they did say that the pedal never got "real good" but they did "have it out in traffic and no one died". They bled it again and that pretty much ended me where I am now - HUGE amount of pre-travel followed by just less than an inch of great brake pedal - the ABS still works...


Second shop used both my Foxwell and their "ProTool" to bleed the system and then still went back and did an additional pressure bleed because they couldn't get the pedal up. They weren't quit as nice as the first shop, LOL, they did charge me, but they also did a shit ton of work trying to actually fix it (and it was a very fair #).


The recirc pump I setup shit itself, the little pump I had apparently couldn't handle the head pressure... I am going to get a better pump in the morning and try that again, or just flip to a manual transfer pump and have at it until I pass out - then move on to the next circuit :yawn:

Brother, if you told me I had to stand on my head and bleed them naked... I'd almost (almost) send pics to prove I did... I don't remember anything on the \ in the booster at the shaft, I did see the spring clip that retains the MC "plunger" but the OEM and replacement boosters looked like twins inside and out. That said, if you find pics, I'm all eyes, would love to get this sorted. Thanks!

I went through similar with an e46. Did you check the check valve?

It may seem to be "checking" but it may be leaking. I checked it by blowing against it into a container with water. It seemed fine with lots of resistance to my blowing but the bubbles showed otherwise so I replaced the valve along with the vac pump.

Thanks g300d, being proactive, because I had exhausted so many other options, I initially checked the valve and line as good, but somewhere between the next booster and new MC, I replaced that entire line (with check valve) just on posterity... sadly the only difference it made was my wallet $79 lighter...


My initial fluid pump died on me so my recirc idea hasn't come full circle yet, I'm just back with a new pump and getting ready to setup, my hope... is that just letting it cycle through the system in a constant, unsealed loop, will eventually \ finally, push the remainder of any air out.


If this doesn't get me a pedal back, well, I'm not really sure what's next, I've tried to not think that far ahead (for the moment).

Wow, that is frustrating!

Nothing on the scanner about the ABS pump?

SOLVED - - No brake pedal, at wits end...
 

OK, spent the day bleeding, literally:


1) bled PR, DR, PF, DF, just straight pressure bleed using my Motive
- pedal improved, some, but not driveable at all yet


2) bled again, this time tapping the ABS block and the open caliper with a rubber mallet, using the Motive
- pedal improved more, is "firm" now but sinks about 3/4 of its travel, "firmly", before acting like a normal brake pedal


3) applied pressure to the system using Motive, ran the ABS bleed procedure, then the individual line identification procedures, got the tinniest of bubbles or two in the MC and then bled each caliper
- Now I get brakes at the top of the pedal, it is "firm" but still sinks about 3/4 of it's throw before setting into what I would call a "normal" brake pedal. The car still stops, but instead of having nothing until the last, less than an inch, of travel and then having great brakes - I know feel he brakes engage at the top of the pedal, the pedal is "firm" but depresses about 3/4 of it's total travel before it acts like a normal brake pedal and actually stops the car. And again, that last bit of travel is perfect, ABS works, doesn't pull or yank to one side and I have no codes...


Has to be air??


(EDIT) - when I say "bled" above, I literally ran two full quarts of fluid through each circuit then went back and filled the Motive and did it again, so 4 quarts of fluid through each circuit, as a reference... stumped.

Have you checked the master cylinder vacuum line? It could be collapsing.

watching this thread, hoping for a resolution for another species of car
 

Hope you resolve your brake problem, Purplefade. I've a very similar problem on a totally unrelated vehicle, an '08 Chevy Cobalt.

I've been working on it off/on for over a year (since April '20), and changed MC, inspected the booster & all hoses, power bled with a Motive unit, new pads & rotors, adjusted & bled all (four times), and used my Foxwell to bleed the ABS. There are brakes...but the pedal likes to go to the floor instead of holding pressure, so my wife won't drive it (but I can, if absolutely neccessary, since I had a '69 C-10 that did the same), and I've given up workingonit.

I had a neighbor helping me with the adjusting & bleeding of brakes (I have a bad back, knees, & left arm), while I did the rest ... installation of front pads & rotors, master cylinder replacement, Motive power bleed, and Foxwell ABS procedure (done three times). but we haven't touched it again in several months now. I won't ask him to help anymore, as it is probably going to wreck his back, too!

So if you find a solution, one I haven't tried already, I might just be able to fix that car, too. If not, I'll find a local shop to do it, for $$$.

My wife is so rough on cars, I need to put the Cobalt back into rotation with her '98 GMC pickup (needs tires) and my old '09 HHR Panel (just had to do pads & rotors she damaged... she stomps on the pedal, and I really need to put on new front struts...she never met a pothole she didn't like). I'll never let her drive the '01 X5 or my '04 2500HD, since she'd destroy them, too!

I GOT IT!!


Pedal is back to 90% of what it was and I think driving it, letting any air left in the system move around, and re-bleeding them again this coming weekend that I'll be 100%.


So, I spent Saturday bleeding brakes:
1) Motive pressure bleeder, ran two courts through, closed system, refilled, ran two more quarts through and then closed that caliper and moved to the next - 4 quarts in total through EACH caliper. - Pedal improved, but was still active only at the bottom.


2) Motive pressure bleeder, same process, but this time I cycled the ABS pump - Pedal improved more and it started to engage about midway down.


3) Motive pressure bleeder, same process, but this time I isolated each line and ran the ABS valve for only that caliper. - Pedal starts to engage almost right at the top of the stroke and increases in stopping force as you press down, bringing me to a very nice stop. (Pedal still isn't 100%, but it's darn close, I'm sure still air, because of the massive increase in pedal since bleed 1.)


In total I spent about 12 hours bleeding brakes, but my motivation was that I continued to see micro bubbles in the front circuit, far and few between, but pretty routinly, to the point my wife thought I was crazy, seeing things and making it up - so she verified and I wasn't crazy.


I ran fluid through the front until I was almost satisfied with the results and buttoned up, and I'll be darned if my rewards wasn't a very nice pedal! Started it, great pedal, shut it off and restarted it, great pedal, took it our and around my local round-about loops and, great pedal - so I moved on to the freeway and have since been driving it, pretty much all day, with a great pedal :2thumbs:


I'll be darned, I really thought it had to be something more "sever" than just bleeding, keep in mind I had two trustworthy guys that I know personally attempt it with no better results... I guess "hard work does payoff"!

I think the only way to bleed these cars after opening the system is use a pressure bleeder AND run the ABS Bleed procedure with INPA or some other 2nd level scanner.

for a simple brake fluid flush, you can get by with just a pressure bleeder, but anything more you have to activate the ABS bleed routine with a scanner.

congratulations, I hope
 

We tried a combination of pressure bleeding with ABS bleeding (via Foxwell), drip bleeding with Foxwell, and using vacuum at the bleeders, again with the Foxwell ABS bleeding program. Couldn't tell much difference between the three methods.

My Motive Power unit wasn't as good as I thought it should be, since I could never get over 8-10 psi (I had a different brand years back that'd give twice that). Drip method (just adding to the MC as it was needed) was useless while the ABS program was running, and the Pittsburg (Harbor Freight) vacuum bleeder drew lotsa bubbles out, but never clear fluid on the last bleeder.

I hope a professional shop will have the right equipment, the personnel needed, and the honesty to fix it cheaply, without firing a parts cannon at it. But my wife says "get 'r done" regardless. Oh well.

What a journey! I hope that resolves it for you OP.

Thanks for sharing the solution here so it can help others!

There are two distinct bleed procedures you need to do with the scanner. I only saw the one mentioned.

can you expand on that?
 

I'm interested in the two procedures you mentioned, whether only for future use on my X5, or if two might also be included in the GM programming in my Foxwell. I didn't see any options.

I have a 2005 mini r53. It had a rusted thru rear brake line - I replaced it, and the Master. I used the motive pressure bleeder, and I had the car running when I bled. The rears were uneventful, but the left front caliper blew an amazing amount of air from the bleed valve. Pedal feel after that has been fine.

Yeah, weird ABS airlock issues are fun.

I had to flush the brakes in the 993TT with alcohol to fix an ABS sludge issue. It's the last ditch thing before you spend enough money to buy a whole E53 to get the ABS pump rebuilt. Fortunately it worked, even if it was a damned weird feeling.

My 2 cents --- Aside from air being trapped in the ABS system which requires the pump to be activated, there are often high spots in the system (eg. front brake hoses) that require a good flow to get get the air flushed out (8 PSI is not going to do it) and having a second person on the pedal is the best way to get that. Air trapped in and just below the master can require some patience to let air bubble up through the compensating port. Vacuum bleeders will draw air from around the bleed screw so there is no way to tell if/when fluid is clear. They are nice for brake flushing though.

The worst part of it all was that two shops (both German auto repair facilities) attempted and neither were successful.. The first guy I've known so long he felt bad enough to not charge me anything. I'm not sure what kept me thinking it was air but I think I'm finally winning the war! Pedal's at about 90 % +\- at the moment and I think an additional bleed, this weekend, should have me back to 100%.

The irony is that two repair shops had attempted it as well, I screwed up the flare fitting on one of my lines which is what caused it to go to shop 1 in the first place, once we got it all back together - and keep in mind I've done brake work to this car a half dozen times in my ownership - it wouldn't bleed, no matter what was tried, pedal never improved.


That resulted in it going to shop 2 - my mistake, I should have just taken it home then - because there was the suspicion of it being a "larger problem" than maybe just bleeding. Shop to worked their magic, said everything was sound, sealed and ready for bleeding... and after numerous attempts, couldn't get the pedal to improve anymore than feeling really great at just less than the last inch of travel.


That's when I brought it home and finally just put in the energy to run fluid through it until I got a pedal - don't get me wrong, it felt like insanity, but as I noted in post 1, there were micro bubbles and my wife confirmed that I wasn't crazy - at least at that moment :rofl:


I think what helped me the most was stopping and activating each circuit independently in the ABS menu as I bled that circuit. If yours isn't fixed yet, I wish you all the best of luck, I know how frustrating it can be!!

Hi AW, please, please let me know what I've missed, maybe that's the last 10% I don't seem to be able to get?



Ran the ABS, also ran the individual ABS circuits as I bled that circuit, that's all I've ever needed to do in the past, would LOVE to know what I'm missing so that I don't do that it again - stupid hurts! (and takes up way too much time :bustingup)


Thanks!!

Heard that!! I could have dried my hair (I don't have much) with all the air that came out of my lines when I had the privilege of discovering they rust out right under the driver side floorboard... So with that said, I guess I've had two "Oh shit" moments with this car - DOH :D

See, I am almost to that point, I say micro bubbles, but something in the back of my mind said "sediment" of some kind, that "stuff" looks almost like little micro grease bubbles vs air. Again, I'm about 90% +\-, going to see what comes up this weekend and it they improve... I'm not poking that bear, yet.

Thanks 80stech! - I think that's a solid idea!


I ran my Motive at 20 pounds and actually started the process (in shop 1) with "the buddy" system, open, push, hold, close, lift and repeat. I'm thinking this weekend I will probably do a quick ABS bleed and then finish up with the buddy system to see if I can get that pedal back to 100% and call this job complete. I'm hoping that driving it this week will walk the air down the lines and make this weekend the "cherry on top" job.

Some ABS gravel road panic stops before bleeding again might help as well.
I can't believe I need to say it, but DO NOT re-use the brake fluid.

Well, the 993 has a known issue with sludge in the ABS unit. I'd be loath to recommend the alcohol flush out without a specific reason.

I struggled with that too, but having run way to many quarts through it from shop to shop... I was pretty sure any aged fluid was gone and I ran it back through a micro paint filter before refilling the Motive and pushing it again. I did not however reuse the fluid caliper to caliper... call me superstitious but that seemed like an invitation for issues.


I know, I know... it all mixed in the MC anyway, but that's not what I told myself while I was doing it :dunno:


Lets see how that pedal holds over this week and then I'll know if I've screwed myself or not, fingers crossed!

Heard that, I don't know if it's a good thing or not, but pedal was awesome all day today, still just 90% ish of what I'm used to in it, but as 80stech said, some good panic stops on loose roads and some driving, letting the system get hot and cold, should push anything left around and, fingers crossed, I should be able to get it back to 99\100% this weekend - or that's my goal anyway.


I'm hoping that by Saturday that the - just blow it up - has worn off and I'm more motivated to finish the job once and for all and put this trauma :D behind me.

Just found this and wondered if the pre-charge cycles (last post) he was getting could have shown what line your problem came from?



https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink/top...ink_source=app

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Actually an interesting post, I may see if I can get any live data on the individual circuits, would be interesting to see if I can read pressure and what each operates at.


Ha... now this is going to drive me crazy wondering, I'm stuck out of town until the weekend after next... I'll check that out when I'm home and report back, I'm curious now.

Driving you crazy?[emoji2957]

My work here is done..[emoji1787]

I'd be interested in what you find though.

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Sounds like my wife. She loves to pull the pin on a rhetorical grenade and prance out of the room... :D

I resemble that remark!! Except for the "prancing" part... [emoji1787]

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Sadly by the time I got back the wife had moved into the X... Long story but we parted company with her Enclave and she got an Audi A4 in LOOK AT ME RED with black tinted windows and then, while I was out of town she was getting gas and had someone make some comments to her and then it happened again at work; to which she decided "the car is just too much attention AND it's too little for me I want an SUV back - I am not driving it anymore"...


The good news - it seems the pedal is fine (to her), she has been driving it, it isn't totaled (thank God) and she hasn't said a single word about the brakes being of any concern to her, and believe me, she can complain about car "things" that bother her :rolleyes:


Basically a long winded way of saying I haven't yet gotten back into it to perform any additional testing... brakes seem to be working, I've driven it a couple of times (when she's let me) and they work wonderfully, but I still think I could make them better... may be just me but I swear they're not the same since.


I have definitely filed this away in the back of my brain as a "when I'm back in there next", but I think until I get rid of this Audi and get her back into something she's comfortable driving, I may not see it again anytime soon.

You know what they say....

A happy wife doesn't need to move a rolled-up carpet.[emoji28]

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I too had a heck of a time bleeding my E53's brakes. It was as if somehow air was being re-introduced to the system. After going through several liters of fluid and trying everything I could think of, I got them to maybe 80% and called it good. I hoped that driving it for a while and then bleeding again might do it, but I haven't had a chance in months as my adult son has been driving it as his DD for most of this year.

The only thing I didn't try from above is activating only one ABS solenoid at a time. I may give that a try when I get the next chance.

Somehow it's comforting just to know I'm not the only one!

AM.

The irony in that statement is that I was out in the driveway at 6:30 AM Saturday morning cutting a rug out of the rear axle... she ran over it in the road as she was turning on to our street (thank God) from dropping my daughter off at work.


She might just drive it long enough that I have to get a new one :D

Brother it is, it is!! :thumbup: I watched guys that I learned from scratch their heads at this thing, it was mind boggling. I'm sure some wiz-bang Technician somewhere will point and laugh at this one day - "jackass couldn't bleed brakes"... and to that I'd say that Technician never worked on an E53 :rofl:


I went rounds with this thing, and there was a moment that I thought it was going to win.


Hang in there, I am living proof that it can be done, I had quadruple checked everything, I knew it had to be a bleeding issue... 16 hours later and, like I say, I have a really good pedal now - all but not what I remembered prior, but a really good pedal. Everyone who drives it tells me that there isn't a pedal issue anymore, its a me issue - LOL...


(but I know I can get it better)

It's funny, but at least it was close to the house and no lines or connections were wiped out so I'm glad it turned out to be an easy fix for you![emoji848]

Wait till you get a plastic bag stuck to your hot rotor....[emoji51]

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Ugghhh…. [emoji37]


E53 RiPPeR
XOuTPoST jUNkiE
ReVELaTiON 22:21

The best are the ones that hit the exhaust and melt.

Here on the East coast we get suicidal birds going into the grills. Nothing but puree and a claw sticking out. Hummm! I am up to three this year on road trips. :wow:

I lost a headlight sprayer to a dove awhile back, but I will point out that even a green scrubby pad won't clean brake pads with the new grocery bag sealant!!
[emoji28]

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congrats, from a brake bleeding failure
 

As I posted earlier https://xoutpost.com/1224957-post13.html, I've had a similar problem with my wife's old Cobalt. I just resumed working at solving the problem, and as it's coming up on two years, the inspection & registration are long expired, and I can't really road-test it like I'd like, or even drive it to a shop, since it has to be inspected first (circular logic failure), So, I drive it between rush hours in my semi-rural locale.

I could drive it, as it's got better brakes than my old '69 C-10, which I used as a daily driver/racecar towing rig for 2+ years. The daily drive was 120+ miles thru the worst of DFW traffic, too. But, my wife would be incapable of modulating the pedal to do so successfully in her Cobalt. And, I don't think it'd pass inspection with a sinking brake pedal.

So, congrats on your victory, and wish me luck. I've got to get this done so my wife can sell it (she's about to get her mother's newer car soon). She also wants to sell at least another of our five vehicles, but the X5 is not in the discussion.