Went to 20s and need help
 

I recently upgraded to 20s with TOYO PROXES and AFS wheels. Upgrading to 20s from 17s is the best thing that has happened to the X. Having said that, I have one issue that I am trying to fix and figure the source. Any help will be appreciated:

1. I followed advice and the moment I received the wheels and tires (already mounted and balanced), took them to a balance shop (tire plus). They mounted and rebalanced (Road force setup). The tires according to the guy (who knew what he was doing) were good and rims were not bent or out of round.

2. I put the wheels on (with included hub rings) and everything is hunky dory till a couple of weeks back I started noticing minor vibration/shimmy while driving in the 55-65mph range.

3. I have checked tire pressure, retorqued the lugs but still feeling it.

4. I have searched the acrhives but am lost to where to start now. Would an alignment help? The truck does not pull left or right but I have not had alignment done ever since I purchased the X. My question is, will alignment help in this case.

5. What else can I check without taking it to a stealer? I am guessing perhaps the shimmy was there but not that noticeable because of smaller rims and wheels.

I know its not the rotos and pads as they were changed some 5k-7K miles back. Should I first go with an alignment before checking anything else?

Help ME! Plz.

An alignment would be good, but you'd probably have to do it at a BMW dealer. All kinds of red flags start flying when you take your X5 to the local shop and they hook it up to the alignment computer.

While you're there, check all of your transmission's rubber boots and make your drive shafts are in good shape.

JV

MiCk,
I dunno what an alignment has to do with wheel shimmy at 55-65?

Wheel shimmy diagnosis is like chasing poltergiests...
-The shimmy is induced or, apperent/exacerbated by the new wheels, as you did not state you noticed shimmy before with your 17s.
-I'd have your wheel guy re-check/re-do the balance job and recheck the wheel and tire runout.
-That brake job 5-7k miles ago: you may have some rotor thickness variation, which is simply now noticeable, magnified by the 20s.
-JV mentioned trans and drive line; poss.imo, but a tough "check"
I'd also have front suspension bushings checked, but be leary, as it won't be a hard task for someone to diagnose "bad" control arms, bushings,etc., which may or, may not have anything to do with the recently noticed shimmy.

Does the steer. wheel shimmy, at speed, under hard/vigorous braking?

I still think it is wheel/tire/brake rotor or, some combo, connected...my 2Cts

GL with this hunt: wheel shimmy at speed is a real PIA.
GL,mD

PS: OT...read ya'll in a few days again...I can barely make this site work, lately.

One quick thought, Mickey - IIRC, on my '02 X5. the front wheels did not require centering rings, but the rears did. (Odd setup, that...)

I would start with the centering rings first. Are they intact? Damaged? Seated correctly? Some of them fall out with little provocation. Plastic or metal? The plastic ones can become deformed or can be mounted off-center. I'd look there first since this is an easy thing to mark off the list. These wheels and tires have a bit more unsprung mass than your OEM wheels, so any imbalance will be very noticable. One question: Do you feel the vibration in the steering wheel or the seat/pedals? If it's in the steering wheel, look in the front first. Otherwise, start in back.

Regarding an alignment...it's a good idea to do one when you mount new tires just to make sure everything is in spec. Have it done at a BMW dealer as they have very specific guidelines they use to perform the alignment (i.e. weights in the seats, trunk, etc. to simulate a loaded car).

I've pulled my hair out over centering ring issues in the past with other cars, but I never had any problems with my 20" Style 87 replicas. Good luck!

Mike

Sounds like something simple to me. You did not have the "shimmy" previous in fact even when you first put the new wheels on.

I reckon simply one of the weights has come of you know the wee lead weights that they stick on to balance the wheels.

Your tires were not balanced correctly. Go to a different shop that knows what they're doing. This should not happen with new wheels and new tires. My shop is 100 times more sophisticated than BMW service. Find a good one and you won't be sorry.

What kind of weights did they use? I had this issue once on a different car...many shops can handle the old style clamp on weights but with the stick-on weights, there is lateral wobble if the weights are too far toward the inner or outer side of the rim--they can figure out where on the radius to stick the weight, but not all shops get the secondary measurement right.

I just purchased the same tire rim package from AFS. I have no problems what so ever. I had mine checked as well when I got them and the balance was perfect and rims were true. Not sure why you had your tire guys re-balance them? The use the Hunter GSP 9700 Vibration Control System to balance the tires. This is one of the best systems out there right now.

Not sure if this helps you, but since I bought the same tires and rims from the same guys, I thought the info might help.

Good luck, let us know how you made out and what the problem was.

Oh and another thing. I always ask my tyre fitter the last time they calibrated their wheel balancer.

Worth a check to find out before you get the next tyre shop to do balancing

Oh almost forgot. I am not sure what they sent you, but they sent me a ton of spacers. There are 2 different size spacers that you need to use. I forget which ones went on the front and rear, but they are both different. If you find they are still balanced and the rims still true, check your spacers. If you really get stuck, PM me and I will pop off a front and rear rim and let you know what I used.

Thanks all for the pointers. The centering rings are plastic.

1. I can try using no centering rings in the front and see what happens. Like Driver8 it just might behave better without in the front. Also there is no shimmy of any kind while braking.

2. I did check the centering rings and they were seated properly (before I retorqued the lugs I took the wheels off for final inspection).

3. AFS had mailed 4 centering rings. They all looked exactly the same. Andrew are you sure two are different and are meant for the rears? What size exactly are the fronts are rears (for my information)

4. The tire shop did use the hunter 9700 with road force and even unmounted one of the tires, rotated the tire a few degrees and then remounted so that it takes less weight.

5. The AFS wheels and tires came premounted but for my sanity I had them rebalanced.

6. I am tempted to try the 17s back on (front) to see if the shimmy is gone. Perhaps the OEMs being smaller do not exhibit or amplify the shimmy that much.

I had AFS 20" wheels with michelin diamaris tires. I had the same problem. The first couple months they were ok, then I had the same shimmy you are experiencing! I had the tires rebalanced and even put a new set of hub rings on. I couldn't get rid of the shimmy. I was told that it was the wheels that were out of round. I guess you get what you pay for. I have since purchased new 22 " wheels and have absolutly no problems.

I would hate to have 4 (rather large) paper weights.

I'll have to pull off the tires and look. I know there were two sizes, one seemed to fit better on the back and one on the front.

Will let you know, I will try to pull them off tonight.

As far as the wheels being out of round... well they do offer a warranty, I would strongly suggest sending them back and gettting them replaced. I have a friend of mine that has 20's from them for over a year now with no problems, or I wouldn't have bought them.

Lead weights are soon to be banned in the UK.

The tyre place i use already uses powder bags. They place a paper bag with powder in the tyre and when the paper bag disintergrates the powder uses centrifugal force to balance the wheel.

1.Do not the remove the centering rings from the front as you will get even more vibration!

3.The AFS centrering rings MUST the same for all wheels.There should two ,usually quite faint, numbers stamped on the centering rings.The bigger number is AFS ,the smaller number is the one to fit your car .This should say 72.6.If you have 74.1,they sent you the wrong ones this is the reason why you have vibration!

I had major vibration issues on my '03 530i when I installed the 18" Style 37 M-Parallels. Turned out that the Pirelli P-Zero Nero M+S tires I installed were badly out of tolerence (3 of 4 were out of factory specs). It was pretty easy to find it on the Hunter machine. After faxing the results to the Tire Rack, they bought them back and replaced them with another brand at my request.

If your new 20's perform cleanly on the Hunter machine, the problem has to lie elsewhere (unless the person running the Hunter machine was not skilled or the machine was out of tolerence, either of which would negate my prior statement). However, in all honesty, I've never had a Hunter balance that was wrong (and I've had several). If the tires and wheels balance up on the Hunter machine and show no vertical or horizontal runout, then the problem has to be somewhere else other than the wheel or tire.

If your old wheels and tires run fine without any vibration and your new ones come up clean on the Hunter machine, then it would make me even more suspicious of the centering rings, especially knowing that the car was initially vibration-free for a time with the new setup. Remove the rings from the wheels and test fit them on the hubs to ensure they fit snugly and that they are not damaged in any way. Also ensure that the right ring is on the right wheel, if applicable.

Ultimately, as X5Andrew stated, they are warranted and you may need to exercise your rights in that regard, or at least get the company involved in problem resolution. Good luck!

Mike

3.The AFS centrering rings MUST the same for all wheels.There should two ,usually quite faint, numbers stamped on the centering rings.The bigger number is AFS ,the smaller number is the one to fit your car .This should say 72.6.If you have 74.1,they sent you the wrong ones this is the reason why you have vibration![/quote]

I stand corrected. I just took a front and rear tire off to check the spacers and they are all 72.6

My bad, for some reason I thought I used different ones on the front and back.

But there ya go.

:thumbup:

Sheeeeesh. Here is a head scratcher.

I took the wheels off yet again (probably the 12th time) to check the center rings (I seem to have bigger biceps because of all the heavy lifting, jacking the truck (no pun) than when I was single and lonely) and even though the center rings did not have any AFS marking on them, I found a little white stickie that says "74.1mm/72.56mm". What does this mean? Do I have the wrong center ring? Why the two numbers? the center rings seem to be in not so good shape so I have taken them off. Are aluminum ones better than the plastic ones?

thanks all. I guess I am getting close to solving the mystery ( i hope)

Yes. Most definitely.

Mickey - The metal centering rings are more durable and less prone to deformation over time. Get them if you can. They ARE better. In terms of fit, your ring should fit nice and snug over the hub. You don't want it to be so tight you have to pound it on nor should it have any play or otherwise hang loosely off your hub center.

Let us know what you find.

Mike

Hi Mickey,
The AFS wheels you have will fit other Bmws as well!I say this in order to explain to you what the numbers on the centre rings mean.74.1 is the mesurement on the centre hub of the AFS Wheels ,72.6 is the measurement of the X5s wheel hub,thus AFS supplied you with those rings to give you a perfect fitment.
For example and M5 has a 74.1 wheel hub fitting,so the AFS wheels for it will not need the centre rings.It will be a straight bolt-on.
In my experience with Wheels,mostwheel manufactrures(even Replicas ) usually supply direct fitment wheels for BMW because of the small difference between 74.1 and 72.6 wheel hubs and the weight of the wheel itself may cause vibrations as in your case.All the wheels I have sold here for X5s are all direct fitment and hence never had vibration issues related to wheel fitting.

Maybe you call call AFS and ask them to exchange your wheels for a direct 72.6mm fitment!

If your centre rings are not in good condition ,get new ones!I dont think that by getting aluminium rings will resolve your problem but if you get new rings ,its better to go for the aluminium ones.

I know another thig to consider as well. When you get them remounted and balanced, take it easy on them for the first few days. A freshly mounted tire can slip and spin a little if it is driven to hard. Just another thought.

Another thought, 17 to 20 is a huge upgrade, bigger wheels = more tire on the ground = rougher ride = stickier. Mabye theres a difference in ride quality because of the size of the upgrade?

Yes.A difference in ride quality!But he shouldnt be experiencing vibrations!

Almost there (possibly a solution)
 

Ok so I have been thinking about the issue for sometime and experimenting. I think I may have found the solution. The issue is/are the centric rings.

I swapped the rings for the left and right front and I do not have the vibration going from 55-65 anymore. The ride is rock solid...no shimmy..nothing..ziltch..nada.

I have ordered aluminum/metal rings and the plastic ones that I took off do look to be in bad shape before swapping them. I think with the weight of the tires and the rings being being plastic, overtime got deformed. I am 99% sure this is what it was. This also explains why initially there was no vibration.

Will update once I get new rings. I am also going to test at higher speeds (70+)

Thanks for everyone for their help.

Wierd rings!They should all be the same!Do try and call AFS and ask them why their wheels are not direct fitment for BMW !Very unusal?


Anyway hope you get it sorted.Good luck.

you know when you think about it logically (like us women do).:thumbup:

The centre ring is for your offset right :)

no matter how bad shape the ring is in I would say that it did not factor in your shimmy because when you torgue up those wheels nuts the ring shouldn't really make I difference. That wheel should be solid up against your hubs.

I suggest to you that your wheel nuts were not tight enough or rather torgued to the correct setting and by taking your wheels off and putting them back on and by tighting the nuts up yourself has resolved the problem. Do you follow me.

See just ask me :thumbup: ;)

Mickey - Glad to hear that you've had some success. Please keep us posted. I've had issues with centering rings before and they can be very frustrating!

Mike

Scottie - Centering rings are used to center a wheel with a larger center bore (female end) on a hub with a centering nub (male end) whose diameter is less than that of the center bore of the wheel. (Pardon my use of the word "nub," but I can't think of a more technical term at the moment.) The centering ring fills the area between the hub and the wheel bore and provides a tightly centered fit.

A tight fit is essential to maintaining the wheel and tire's centering on the hub. If it's not centered, you will have vibration caused by runout (vertical up and down motion). The torque required on a set of lugbolts to hold a wheel in place that has a couple millimeter's play is much great than the standard 80-90 lb-ft we use to attach a wheel to a hub. This is why centering rings are so important.

A centering ring, in its most common definition, does not affect offset of the wheel. It only centers the wheel on the hub. You may be thinking of spacers, which typically bolt onto a hub to extend the mounting point (usually 10, 20 or 30mm) of the wheel. Hope this is of some value. If I've missed anything, please add or fill in the blanks where appropriate.

Mike

yeh I know bad explanation:) what we are talking about hear is the Center bore. size of the hole at the back of the wheel which the hub fits into. Actually as I understand it is a load bearing part but from memory ion the X'er it's not a huge lug so I reckon the bolts/studs come more in to play.

I had mounted and unmounted the front two wheels so many times that I have lost count. This is the only instance that the vibration/shimmy is gone. The lugs had been tight and secure in all those instances.

PS: If we men could think like women, all you women would not have a place on this earth. Behind every successful man would be..ahem..another man.

I take it you are single MiCkEy? Or married for a real long time :confused:

LMAO :rofl:

any updates????

I don't know if anyone will look at this thread again, but I am having serious vibration issues. I have had my replica 20's with michelin diamaris tires for about a year now. When I first got them I did not notice any vibration, but my problems as of late have been many. At 55 mph the steering wheel shakes visibly, like the front wheels are moving from side to side or something. Outside of that speed that does not occur. When I brake the stearing wheel shudders similarly but for only a second, like a disc is warped or something. My main issue is this. Because I travel long distance a lot I notice this. From 70 mph to 90 mph the car vibrates constantly and passengers notice it, and more importanly it drives me CRAZY!! I have had the wheels balanced many times at different places and I have the same problems. Alignment is not the issue either. BMW says my control arm bushings are worn down or something, but they also tell me this would not fix any of my problems except the shuddering of the steering wheel when on the brakes. I don't know what to do now. Do you think inflation over 32psi would cause vibration at highway speeds?