I agree with you totally Madforce. You really need to put it on a AWD dyno and hook up the wideband O2 and see what your getting. Also I'd like to see if your putting down what they claim. I've done a few ATI D1SC systems on fords and alot of V1SQ's on VR's along with turbo's, and numero uno most important is your fuel and timing. You can get a wide band O2 for your ride for about 300 not really that much but the peace of mind is worth 17k, or a new motor.

Now I don't like to hate but 17k holy crap.... It better wack me off while I'm driving. You could have had someone else reputable build you and install and tune a twin turbo setup for that. I'm talking forged pistons stainless turbo headers, TECII standalone, injectors the works and tuning time. To each his own I guess, I wish you the best of luck with it.

I would check your A/F ratio as soon as possible though get to a dyno asap

I had actually typed up a very similar message but deleted it because I thought I was rambling. Glad to see someone else shared my same thoughts.

In any case, for that price it SHOULD have come with an air to air intercooler, air/fuel guage, boost guage, tweaks to the tranny to strenghten it, a bigger intake, headers, TB, MAF, custom harmonic balancer and custom dyno tuning.

But I have a feeling if you can afford to drop $17K on a supercharger, you can afford to pay for the needed repairs that will soon follow. If it was ME, it'd take it to a custom supercharger shop and get it done right, on a dyno. Until then, I'd keep the rpms low. The 4.6 motor was not built for a supercharger, which means the piston rings are not gapped for it, the compression is not low (superchargers/turbos like ~8:1 compression, not the 10:1 or whatever the 4.6 motor is - I suspect it's ~9 or 10:1 being they require premium fuel only). Are the stock pistons forged?

BTW, not many people think about this, but superchargers put a HUGE strain on the snout of the crankshaft because of the belt tension to run the blower, and the added weight of the pulley extended on the crank. I sure hope the Dinan kit came with a GOOD harmonic balancer to keep the crank and bearings from failing/breaking. It's this reason alone I prefer turbo setups...so MUCH easier on the motor, no belts to worry about and the hp gain is SICK. :) With a good intercooler you can keep internal temps in check.

So with your experience now, let me ask.
Mine is 2006, 4.4, 15000 mi.
I am really looking for low end torque first.
Iwas gonna start with a Dinan Throttle body first.
My gearhead buddys think this will improve
throttle response across the grid. Any opinions?

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeattleYates OK, I finally have a few interesting (although very tentative and by no means "official" or technically exact) numbers for the 4.6is with Dinan S3 package. City MPG: 9.6 0-60mph: 5.3-5.6 sec. in "Sport" (automatic) mode The low gas mileage around town doesn't really surprise me, and I do NOT blame the S3 package...mechanically at least. I DO blame it inasmuch as it is virtually impossible for me to leave the transmission in "D" ;) -- I drive almost entirely in manual now, and I tend to downshift to keep the RPMs in the 2500-3500 range because I just love the throaty sound and quick response at those levels (whereas "D" mode tends to upshift quickly to keep RPMs in the 1,000-2,000 range - little more than idling). I'll get a better idea of the actual impact of the S3 kit on gas mileage "all things being equal" when I do a highway trip where it's in 5th gear most of the time. As for the 0-60 times, take those with a grain of salt. I do NOT have access to a track or any fancy timing equipment. The 0-60 times are literally taken with me holding a stopwatch in my left hand and attempting to start the stopwatch when I hit the pedal and started to move, and stopping it when the speedometer crossed 60. IOW, I would NOT rely on them as exact times, but I do consider them reasonably close, based on about 8 different runs. I don't have 0-100 numbers because I haven't found a patch of road where I'm comfortable going from dead stop to 100mph (I live in the city)...yet. My guess is that with optimal shifting (manually), the 0-60 time really would be at or below 5.3 seconds (which was the fastest stopwatch time I got). That would put it on par with the Cayenne Turbo S (which I believe is 5.2 seconds), and substantially faster than a stock 4.6is (6.2 sec's) or 4.8is (5.9-6.0 sec's, depending on where you read it). I'd really love to get on a track where I could get some official times, including 0-100, quarter mile speed, etc...and just generally cut loose! If/when I get a chance to do that, I'll let y'all know. I'll also try to get some video one of these days. Meanwhile, I'll just have to enjoy "puttering" around town, rumbling with a smile on my face...and using way too much gas! :D

I'm not sure who you're asking, but being it followed my post, I'll chime in.

You have to think of a motor as a giant air pump...the more air in, the more power you make. That's the logic behind turbos, superchargers and nitrous...they all all more air. With that added air you need added fuel to keep the air/fuel ratio in check, thus the computer tweaks and bigger injectors.

To make more power you need to let in more air, so you start at the FRONT of the air system. First, a better air filter, second, a bigger MAF, third, a bigger throttle body. It's best to do all three of these at one time. Together they will add 5-20hp, *depending on the vehicle*.

The second stage is to add a better flowing intake. This is where torque curves can be manipulated. An intake can make or break your car, meaning if you choose the right one, you'll smile from ear to ear. Choose the wrong one and you'll be out several thousand $$ and have a car that could be worse off that it was stock. This is why it's important to see real-world data, not some market bs literature that makes bogus claims.

Cold Air Induction kits are also very overhyped. Save the money. All they do is dirty up your filter much faster, and in some cases, can introduce water to the motor in a rain storm (depending on the design).

Along with getting air in, you need to get it out, so you need a better flowing exhaust. However, go too big and you lose back pressure, which means you lose torque. This is why some people add an X-pipe and then notice their car isn't as "quick" (but top speed will be better). Being most driving is stop and go, I'll opt to keep my torque as I *rarely* drive at WOT, so an X-pipe for me is a waste.

Now, to your question, if you want to get a torquier ride you'll need a better intake. Swapping a filter, MAF and TB may do very little for your car. In fact, you can actually go too big on the TB and destroy your torque curve. To get air rushing through the motor, there is a fine balance between all the parts - change one part and you *might* throw off this balance, which is why it's important to do it in stages. For example, back when I was building/tuning Mustangs, I got guys coming in wanting to throw on an 80mm Throttle body with a stock intake thinking they'd add 20hp (thanks to some bs ad they saw in the magazine). We actually built 600hp street cars with a 70mm TB that LOST power when we jumped to an 80mm TB. Bigger is not always better. Think of you blowing through a straw versus a paper towel tube...which one is going to have more velocity? The straw, of course. hp is all about getting air in and out as quickly as possible.

At this point, if you did all these steps (and had the computer tweaked to benefit from the added air), you should see a 20-40hp gain, again depending on the vehicle. On the X5 you can do this all with Dinan parts, albeit for a cost of ~$7000 not including labor. A month later you won't even notice the 30hp gain and again you'll want more power. BTW, 30hp in a 6000lb vehicle is NOT going to be noticable. It might be a *bit* quicker from a stop, but not much, IMO.

For that kind of money I'd just trade in the 4.4 and buy a 4.8. That way you get a factory warentee and a faster car that you know is a tuned balanced system.

So to answer your question, swapping the throttle body and nothing else will probably do nothing for you (which is why Dinan shows the throttle body with a software change and better exhaust - showing it by itself would probably show a drop in torque and maybe 1hp gain at peak rpm).

BTW, I didn't even get into heads/cam because things get REAL expensive and complicated at this point. Knowing flow numbers, lift and duration, overlap, etc. are so important to building a balanced system that makes nice power.

Thx for responding. Yeah I really just want around town torque. Sport mode helps a lot. I'll wait a little longer for Dinan to get the software out.
Then I'll take it from there.

I can see that there are really (at least) four different issues arising here:
1. Does the Dinan S3 kit include all the important equipment that it "should" when adding a supercharger?
2. Is a supercharger as good/better for boosting performance as a turbo?
3. Does Dinan really know what they're doing, or should we all go out and find a "custom supercharger shop" to piece together and install the right stuff?
4. Are Dinan's prices "too high" for what you get?

I don't intend to get into big arguments about any of these points. The fact is that Dinan seems to have done a fair amount of R&D on these issues, employs a number of technical people who probably understand these issues as well as you all do (I certainly don't!), and has put together mods that can be installed by mechanics at BMW dealers who spend all day working on X5's and other BMW's. My service person specifically made sure this installation was done by one of their most experienced mechanics...

And before all of you assume that all Dinan did was throw a supercharger in my car without regard to how it would affect everything else, make sure you've looked at what that package DOES involve. It takes 30 hours of labor to install, so it's no small job, and includes not only the supercharger system, but their high flow throttle body, free flow exhaust, and extensive reprogramming of the X5's software. I don't know if they used a dyno, but I'm guessing that if that is really critical, Dinan just might have suggested/required it of their dealers. FWIW, you can read about some of what the supercharger system itself involves at the bottom of this page of their website:
http://www.dinancars.com/Series.asp?...e%20Tuning#202

As for the fourth point, did I realize I was paying a "premium" price for the S3 package? Absolutely! Are there undoubtedly better mod combinations that would have given me a big jump in power/performance for less money? I'm certain there are.

As I've stated before, it was worth it to me not to have to figure out all that stuff myself (stuff that you experts already know) AND to find someone to install it all. I considered Dinan's package a reputable product that could be installed by a dealer I trust, and I was willing to pay thousands of dollars "extra" for those aspects of it. It's that simple.

People can always argue that it's foolish to pay high prices for things that could "apparently" be accomplished in other, less expensive ways. But hell, we've all paid "premium" prices to buy BMW's (instead of American cars with comparable performance stats--for FAR less money). Jeeze -- I've got a new M5 on order, and that's going to be a LOT more painful to my bank account than this mod was! :yikes:

Bottom line: "value" is in the eye of the individual. And based on how much fun I'm having with my "new" old X5, I think I got my money's worth! I'll try to add some of the monitoring stuff you guys have mentioned in this thread so I can utilize the Dinan mods responsibly, but I don't regret for a minute having gone the Dinan S3 route... :D

Well said Yates. Obviously Dinan used a dyno in their design of the system. They show the dyno numbers on their web site.

I have to agree with going with a tuner's system that is designed specifically for your automobile. When you have a "shop" do it, I feel it is a less engineered system.

I learned the hard way about not having a "shop" install a supercharger. On an expedition I used to own my Pro Charger Supercharger was installed by a knowledgable mechanic with 40 years in the biz, an engineering degree, multiple supercharger installations and one of the fastest street legal cars in the country. He did not suggest to me to install a MSD ignition. Put holes in two pistons.......

Installing a supercharger is easy if you’re willing to take the time…heck, anyone can do that. It’s their TUNING that is the part that scares me. Each state has a different elevation and climate from the next, therefore I can’t believe Dinan would sell an off-the-shelf chip for a supercharger. For what works in California will not necessarily work in Colorado due to the elevation change. For all we know, it could be so de-tuned (to cover their asses) that you could pick up 50-75 more hp just be giving it a good tune on the dyno with a wide-band 02 sensor.


It’s still a generic chip, which I already stated is very dangerous. Just because it took 30 hours to install doesn’t mean anything. Installing a supercharger involves moving accessories to new locations, tapping the oil pan to pump oil into the SC, etc. MOST of the time is just in the removal of all the junk that hangs on the front of the motor. You didn’t get a new ignition (e.g MSD), boost retard module in the dash, air/fuel meter, intercooler, etc.) – those things really are what take up the most time. If you did get all these, then I’m way off and apologize in advance.


It’s your money – many of us that don’t have that kind of money to splash around feel it’s foolish to pay nearly double what you should have. But then again, with Dinan I’m not surprised. Hell, their throttle body, which is just a stock unit bored out a bit, cost $699!! Accufab makes an 80mm, custom billet aluminum throttle body that is as nice as they come for $289. You do the math. Dinan knows that anyone that buys a BMW is probably rich, so they jack up the prices to rip you off. In my opinion, you were ripped off big time.

And that’s exactly how Dinan wants you to feel; if I paid this much, it MUST be good. Vortech is an awesome company, with an great and proven product, so there’s not doubt you got the best blower available. What you need to be concerned about is the fact that you have a stock chip, stock harmonic balancer, stock pistons, no air/fuel meter and no intercooler. Why do you think ATI sold intercoolers with their blowers from day one? Vortech tried to bash ATI and claim it wasn’t needed, but when ATI started killing Vortech on the dragstrip, Vortech changed their tune and now offer air-to-air and air-to-water intercoolers. Supercharged air is EXTREMELY hot due to the compression and the impeller spinning at 38,000 rpms in that little unit. Hot air robs you of power and leads to detonation. I bet an intercooler on YOUR setup, today, with no other change with give you another 50hp, and be SAFER. Funny how that works. You obviously have money…call Vortech and ask if they make an intercooler for the X5. If they do, get it and have your dealer install it. It will prolong the life of your motor and give you more power, at a safer level.

I agree 100% - I just paid $22K for the electronics and installation of my home theater. Sure, I could have figured it out myself and probably saved thousands, but I don’t have time nor the desire. I just want to push a button and watch the game on my 100” screen. You just want to mash the gas and be pinned in your seat. THAT I understand. J

So, don’t think I’m not trying to rain on your parade…I’m just letting you know that a supercharger is not a simple bolt on that you can just install and forget. For what you paid, Dinan should have covered ALL of these items.

All good and valid points, madforce, and no offense taken!

I had to laugh at the 22K entertainment system, though. When you start getting into the question of whether the average human ear can actually discern any difference between a $1,000 a/v amp and a $5,000 one (and hence, "wasted" money), you can REALLY get people's hackles up! :rofl:

I really do appreciate all of your cautionary suggestions/warnings, and I'll take them to heart and see what I can do/find out. Meanwhile, I'll try to take it a little easy on the gas pedal... :thumbup:

:iagree:

$22K was a guess...I just added it up. OMG!

Projector: $5K
100" Screen: $2.5K
B&W speakers: $6K
Installation: $1700
Misc. Cables: $400
Remote: $400
Denon A/V: $1300
Pioneer DVD Player: $600

Custom Bar/Cabinets: $4K
Copper sink: $700
Faucet: $400
Crown molding: $600
Granite countertops: $3K
Faux painting: $4K
Carpet: $2K
Tile: $1500
Sconses lights: $750
Microwave: $400
'Frig: $500
Additional Electric plugs: $400
Leather theater seats: $3300

Total: $39,450

Never having to listen to some jackass talk on his cellphone in the middle of a movie, fight for parking and good seats, or pay $20 for two drinks and some popcorn...PRICELESS!
:popcorn: