trans leak
 

Something is leaking from underneath my 2000 X5 that I just got :( It looks red and somewhat oily so I am guessing it is transmission fluid. I have had the car for about 2 weeks now and have been driving it regularly, and did not notice it until I was pulling back into my garage after work today. The car has just over 65Kmi on it, but obviously is 8 years old now.

I bought this car from my dad for $17K, because he was having difficulty selling it. One guy almost bought the car for $20K, but backed out when he had the car checked out at an independent mechanic, the reason: the mechanic said the transmission had a very small leak and it would cost around $1000 to fix.

My dad didn't believe him, but I guess he was right. Anyway he said he would pay to get it fixed if it really needed repair. In reality I might have to pick up half of the bill, but what exactly should I expect for an estimate from an independent mechanic?

I know the car has been taken care of and serviced at the regularly reccomended intervervals by BMW dealerships and independent mechanics.

I am not sure what exactly will need to be replaced, my guess is some sort of seal (I have heard rear main seal - which I know goes around the flywheel). I have watched this be done on my '93 300X TT when I installed an aftermarket clutch/flywheel), we also replaced the transmission mount as well since it was sagging a little (i think this sometimes is the cause of such leaks).

Any I a novice mechanic I have installed fuel rails and fuel injectors in my 300Z which required me to do some light fabrication, I have done bolt on modifications, changed oil, etc...

Any advice appreciated.

Just a wild guess, but maybe it's the transmission pan gasket?? (That's supposedly one of the things leaking on my Lexus according to the stealership)

Well I don't really know, I'm just 99% positive it is leaking transmission fluid. I will mention that to the mech tho. I would think that is most likely that or the rear main seal. I would fix it myself but I don't have the tools to do it, also would be a major bitch without an air lift.

Is there anything else I should replace while he is in there? Ya know maintenance stuff (water lines, etc....)?

If it's the pan/gasket, it should be a very easy fix. Whatever the problem is though, BMWNA has been known to take the bill on such repairs as a matter of goodwill, even outside warranty.

How do I go about trying to get BMWNA to foot the bill? I need to do this for a dead pixel in my gauge cluster as well would be nice to get it all banged out at once. Otherwise I was going to try to fix it myself, or more likely go to an independent mechanic.

Either talk to your dealer's service dept first or call BMWNA yourself. Don't try to get both covered at the same time..they won't be inclined to give two freebies. How many miles are on the vehicle?

Wipe up as much fluid/residue as you can and then check later to trace the leak.

Ask your ol'man for a refund or, discount...:rofl:

just hit 65Kmi, I puta piece of cardboard down and will try and trace the leak later. Is the tran pan visible from just crawling under the car? Is this an easy DIY job or no?

he's going to split it with me whatever it ends up costing.

You can see the pan here. If it's the pan gasket, you'll just need to drain the fluid, drop the pan and change the gasket. I've never heard of an oil pan gasket leaking on these things. Hopefully that's the problem, but I'd guess it's a torque converter seal.

Wipe the fluid that's there right now and see where it comes from.

http://www.xoutpost.com/x5-e53-forum/...hange-diy.html

cool that is a big help! I will do a little investigating. I think I need a beefier jack and jack stands, though. So it sounds like it is likely to be one of three possibilities:

1) rear main seal
2) transmission pan gasket
3) torque converter seal (or is this the rear main seal?)

I would imagine these parts are inexpensive. Any idea what the ballpark labor hours on each of these items?

Rear main seal is at the rear of the engine, behind the flywheel.

You shouldn't even need a jack for the trans pan gasket. The X5 sits high enough off the ground. If you feel you need to raise the vehicle use ramps..they're much easier to use and cheaper (look at the 3.0i oil change on the front page). The gasket should take less than an hour.

Tq converter seal: you'll easily get charged for 7+ hrs labor. Def not a diy job.

I don't think it's the pan, looks like its coming from right above the big black bar that runs across. It is dripping from there as you can see. So I take it this is the torque converter gasket that is leaking, then?

http://we350z.com/cpg/albums/userpic...l_IMGP0309.jpg

http://we350z.com/cpg/albums/userpic...l_IMGP0314.jpg

http://we350z.com/cpg/albums/userpic...l_IMGP0320.jpg

http://we350z.com/cpg/albums/userpic...l_IMGP0325.jpg

http://we350z.com/cpg/albums/userpic...l_IMGP0396.jpg

I can't tell from those pics. Is it from the area where the trans meets the engine?

I had a small leak on my 2001 4.4i at about 64,000 miles which BMW fixed under warranty (even though the vehicle was out of warranty). The leak was from the "torque converter radial seal" and manifested from the black rubber "plug/cover" which appears in your photos.

NOTE: The fluid in the transmission is NOT RED in color but a pale straw color high $$$$ synthetic fluid (due to wear metals used fluid will appear grayish). If the fluid is in fact red in color then the WRONG fluid is in the transmission and you've got another BIG problem altogether.

The repair involves R&R of the transmission (about $1,300) and torque converter, removing the torque converter from the front of the transmission (which is NOT invasive to the transmission) to expose the radial seal on the transmission input shaft, replacing the seal (about $35 in parts).

Again, BMW warrantied my repairs even though the vehicle was out of warranty because it just shouldn't have happened at 64,000 miles. A leak of this kind could be expected around 150,000+ miles and that is why BMW repaired it under warranty.

I don't think it is red now that I look at it on the white cardboard, it looks more gray as you indicated. By R&R do your just mean dropping the transmission so they can remove the torque converter and replace the seal? Also is the $1300 quote from the stealership or an indy mechanic?

So did you contact BMWNA directly about this or go to a dealer? I think I will attempt to go the same route as you.

--Thanks

Just spoke with Bavarian Auto Haus in Reno, NV. They did the inspection on the vehicle. They also confirmed that it is the front seal (torque converter) gasket seal that is leaking :( They quoted about 9-10 hours @ $90/hr. plus $35 for the part. So thats $800-$900 indy rate. I asked him if he thought that was abnormal for a car with this mileage to have this issue and he reponded saying that age is more of an issue at this point but that it still is not really "typical". BMWNA will be getting a call from me shortly.

Yes, i think so, there is a long black bar running across (i assume to protect the housing) which lines up roughly with the back of the front wheels (going towards the rear of the car)

Sent in my request to BMWNA, we'll see how it goes. Thanks everyone for the help!

I just saw the pics, I had the same exact leak you have and I also thought it was the rear main seal or my tranny leaking, but it wasn't, my mech put the truck on the lift and he shined the light underneath the valve covers, sure enough both valve cover gaskets were leaking and one of the crankvent hoses that sit on top of the eng. had a hole on it too causing oil to slide down right onto that same spot you showed on the pic.
If u can slide under the truck and shine the light and look up right under the cover gaskets and ck it out.
Keep us posted.

I will check that even though the mechanic that looked at it previously seems to think that it is the front seal.

What did it cost you to get your valve cover gaskets fixed? How many labor hours and where did you get it done? Sounds like that might be less expensive of a problem :)

Just got mine changed last week. The total cost was $450 at an independent garage but for me it was covered under the extended warranty.

I'll make sure to check this then, I assume this one would not be covered under BMWNA good will program. $450 isn't too hard to swallow anyway.

Anyone have a pic that i can refernce so I know where to look for the valve cover gaskets. Don't these sit on the top of the engine on the lower plenum below the upper plenum? So if it's leaking it is leaking down the side and dribblingdown the torque converted housing?

Is there anyway to determine from the fluid? I would think the used oil would be really dark and slicker than the light grey trans fluid.

Regarding R&R, yes this is to drop the transmission so that the torque converter can be accessed/removed to expose the seal on the transmission's input shaft that the torque converter drives.

Regarding the $1,300+, this is my actual labor & parts invoiced by dealership BMW of Houston North (Texas) that BMW USA warrantied.

Regarding the warranty, I dealt directly with the dealership which contacted BMW USA. BMW USA had their field rep/tech look at my transmission when it was dropped. I was there to discuss the matter with the BMW rep/tech who advised he would submit the matter to BMW USA to determine if it would be warrantied. The dealership held off invoicing me for about two weeks until BMW USA got back with them approving warranty of the work. End result is they fixed the leak at absolutely no cost to me. I wrote a note of praise to them which you'll find at:http://www.xoutpost.com/dealer-info/1...=houston+north

Cool, sounds like you were well taken care of. Have you had any issues since? When did you have the truck in for service? I was 99% positive it is the torque converter seal until Hal88 mentioned the valve cover gaskets.

I've had no issues since the repair was done April of 2005 at 64,000 miles (I currently have 89,500 miles on the vehicle).

From your photos and now your statement that the fluid is NOT red I'm 100% sure it's the torque converter radial seal. Engine oil would be relatively thick and usually blackish unless recently changed. The only red fluid in the engine compartment is in the power steering system which uses ATF Dexron that is dyed red.

Yea, I don't know why I thought it was red I must have been high. All signs point to the torque converter seal. So they honored your warranty 2 years after it ended, mine has been over for like 5 years. We'll see I hope BMWNA can help me out.

:rofl: I'm sorry man, I don't mean to make it more confusing, but when I saw your pics it was like I was looking at my own truck, I took it to an indy mech and they came to the conclusion that it was the torque converter seal, but the leak wasn't that bad, he suggested that I add some Lucas oil treatment to make the seals swell and therefore seal the leak, well that didn't work, then I met this guy who is a mech. that works at a Bmw dealer and does work on the side at his house, like I mentioned before he put it on the lift and he went right to the valve covers, he told me that this is a common problem with the V8's (I can't remember if you have a v8 or an I6) anyway, that was the problem......just something to look for, valve cover gaskets are a lot cheaper than the main seal. Good luck.

It is the 4.4 V8. I will examine the fluid some more and get under the truck again to see if i can see valve covers. Where do you add this Lucas oil treatment stuff? You think this is worth trying? Sounds like a bandaid to me.

I added the Lucas treatment right in the eng. where you add the oil, but it didn't do anything, so I will just skip that I were you, don't forget the two crankvent hoses , those two also leak oil down there.

Damn, is there some definitive way I can tell just from the fluid!? It does appear to be light grey and not dark, and the indy mech wrote it up as the trans front seal. I already sent an email to BMWNA about the trans leak too.

I'm not exactly sure where to look for the valve cover gasket leak. Would anyone happen to have a picture of the engine out of the car? Are the PCV's on the side of the upper plenum or what?

Haven't you had two mechanics so far tell you it's the tq converter seal?

One. And I do not know them personally, there was a guy who had the vehicle inspected locally (then Reno, NV) because he was considering purchasing it. I called and spoke with someone at the shop today, though the tech that actually looked at the car was not available. They told me the writeup was for the front transmission seal. I guess I am not really skeptical but I would like to validate to myself the problem one way or another because I thought for sure it was the tq seal but now I am not so sure. Basically I would like to get a definitive answer here.

Definitive answer: It's the torque converter radial seal. As I said before, I witnessed my removed transmission and discussed the matter with the mechanic and BMW USA/NA tech rep. In my previous note I inserted a link to a note I wrote giving praise / accolades to all concerned. In that note I stated that I had been a Lubrication Engineer (with Texaco Lubricants Co.) so I know of what I speak.

Regarding a valve cover leak, you MAY be able to see some seepage by viewing the engine from the top SIDES. The valve covers are the light grayish/yellowish (due to paint color change with heat/age) items on either side of the engine (the passenger side has the oil fill cap). Using a flashlight look along the interface where the cover meets the sengine (cylinder head) to see if engine oil has seeped down along the head. You can expect some minimal seepage but if it is very fluid/oily you MAY need to have it corrected .......... first step would be to make sure the valve cover bolts are all tight.

Cool, I think you are correct. I already cryed wolf to BMWNA yesterday. I am going to go to AutoZone to pick up some wheel ramps since I need them anyway, gonna take a look at the valve covers just for good measure.

Interesting info... My X5 3.0 had a small red fluid leak yesterday and I was thinking it was tranny fluid also. So is it confirmed that the red fluid is power steering fluid?

I can't really speak to the transmission of the X5 3.0. I believe that BMW sourced it from General Motors and if that is so GM uses the red dyed Dexron fluid. My 2001 X5 4.4i has a German ZF transmission which uses a special synthethc fluid which is pale straw in color and VERY HIGH $$$.

If you leak is coming from the front of the engine it could well be power steering fluid since the P/S pump is located up front, BUT the steering rack is located toward the rear of the engine so a leak in it could be confused with a transmission leak.

wow 3 duplicate posts :) My fluid is def grey now that i see it dripped on white cardboard. I think the finsh on my concrete made it look red. Upon running my fingers over it, it just looks kinda clear on my skin. Shit I dunno, I am ham boned right now lol.

ok finally got my rhino ramp 8000's today and got under the X5 to take a look to check for valve cover gasket leak. If I am looking at the right thing (directly above the header/downpipe/pre-cats which connects to the cats) they appear to be dry as a bone.

I can say with almost 100% certainty that this really is a front seal/torque converter leak. Hopefully BMWNA will make good on the good will program deal. I will keep you all posted.

Hopefuly BmwNa will help you out, I was hoping it was your valve covers as it is cheaper to fix than the main seal, good luck.

No response yet, tried to contact Leonara by phone today and she was not available. No case has been opened for me yet, I had someone from the customer service department leave her a voicemal and send another email to contact me. If I don't hear anything tomorrow I will call them back Friday and open a case with them directly.

It could be a few things. Let me explain what I changed just 4 months ago. You might even find it in the search area. First I had the same problem as you. It turned out to be my rear main seal.... Then it was dripping from not just there but in many other places. So they found it to be the following.

Rear main seal
Torque Converter seal
Valve switch in back of engine top part
And finally, some seal that acts like a cork. ( I can't remember the specific names but I'm sure you can ask and they will know) But once all this was done. No more leaks. My advise to you would be to check all these items. Tell them to pour a dye into the oil and see where the oil is leaking from. Then change what is needed.. GOOD LUCK. I hope this can help you...

hmm, I dunno. I am telling them it is a transmission leak. Hopefully they will fix it whatever it is.

OK, so I did end up getting a response from Leonora after sending another email. A customer service representative by the name of Elaine (who is very nice by the way!) contacted me shortly there after. After playing phone tag for a while I explained to her to my situation, she told me that I would have to have a dealership diagnose the problem for them to consider my case for the goodwill program. So I brought the X5 into Chapman BMW of Scottsdale today. I discussed this with my Service Advisor (who I actually had met before at the Power Toyota Dealership in Tempe). He told me they would check the car out and contact Elaine at BMWNA. So I am waiting for someone to call me.

Anyway, I have a sweet brand new 5 series to rock until this all get's sorted out!

Guess my Service Advisor is playing phone tag with BMWNA now as well lol. Anyway the front seal/torque converter seal was confirmed as the source of the leak. The quote is for $1066. We'll see what happens, at least I'll be rolling 5 series style for another day :)

10% off is the deal i was told i would get today. So the job would be done for $950 bucks. That is a far cry from free. I called Elaine and told her about all the people I heard about getting this same problem fixed for free or next to free via the goodwill program. I don't think she has ever heard of this program. She said we should check into it. When she called me back later today she said she thought when she was talking to my service advisor she was talking to the service manager. They are now playing phone tag with each other but hopefully the pot get's sweetened.

For those who have used the goodwill program? Was it BMWNA who footed the bill or the Stealership!?

Look, don't really know who footed the bill, but I'll tell you what, with the answer you got, you better have an indy as for your plan "B"... Forget BMW. Get a good indy to do your job cheaper and maybe can do some other work for the same price as 950.00.... Just an idea for yea....

The indy that originally looked at the car quoted me higher, If I go somewhere else now I will have to pay the dealership for diagnosing the car so screw that. It's going to cost $990 out the door, and they can replace any other smalls parts for preventative maintentance while they are in there.

All I can say is, BMWNA really did nothing for me. So either they changed their goodwill program (if it even really exists), or I don't meet their criteria. It sounds to me like they don't pay for anything unless there are extenuating circumstances, and all they really do is ask the dealer if there is anything THEY can do. I can tell you the answer to that one myself LOL.

Which is really bullshit because this was one of the first X5's to hit the road in the US. My pops got the car directly from the West coast distributor for BMWNA, he knows people there. He had this car before the stealers did. I am not one bit surprised about being left out in the cold here to tell you the truth. I never really expected them to do ANYTHING. It was worth a shot, and maybe you just don't hear from others who were turned down. Who the hell knows?

By the way Leonora is an administrative assistant who fields the emails and assigns them to customer service representatives, not some magical savior that will make everything alright.

I don't doubt that perhaps some people were helped out, and maybe things have changed, maybe I got the wrong rep, blah, blah, blah... Maybe the moral of the story here is don't believe everything you read.

Anyway my pops is picking up the bill because he is a good guy and he feels bad about selling me car with a leaking transmission.

Yes, BMWNA absorbed the bill. You might want to re-read my post which details my dealings with the dealer and BMW Rep. at:http://www.xoutpost.com/dealer-info/1...+houston+north

withidl - sent you PM and email.

I answered your PM, please confirm your reciept of it.

Got it, thanks again!!!

OK I am totally getting the runaround from BMWNA even though this issue is a recall and has an associated SIB. I am starting to get extremely irritated with how my case is being handled. I finally got a call back from my service rep today after waiting 3 days, and now I am waiting again after being told repeatedly there is nothing they can do for me. That my case is different than withidl's because his vehicle is a 2001 (mine is 2000) and had different mileage (60K vs 65K). That is a crock of shit, the cars are the SAME model and are virtually identical mechanically as far I understand it. And the mileage is very close, it's not like the seal would start leaking at the same exact mileage anyway. She then told me that other factors were considered such as whether or not you have previously owned BMW vehicles or not, and how many if so. Also how long you have been out of warranty (in my mind you are either in warranty or out of warranty). I feel like I got raped with this $1,044.99 bill. I had the work completed which consisted of the following:

#1 -
37BMAUTTRS: SERVICE AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSION
CUST STATES TRANSMISSION IS LEAKING. CHECK AND ADVISE.
HAS BEEN IN CONTACT WITH ELAINE AT BMW NA
Work performed by WILLIAM MILLER (B32),,1054.00
Installed 24 31 1 422 671 :OIL SEAL, [email protected], 12.86
Installed 17 22 1 723 803 :GASKET, [email protected], 16.30
Installed 17 21 1 742 636 :O-RING, [email protected], 1.78
Installed 83 22 0 004 008 :1/2 LT TRANS OIL, [email protected], 34.94
REPLACED TORQUE CONVERTOR SEAL AND ADDED LOCTITE
TO BOTTOM SEVEN BOLTS 8.50
Sub Total: Labor: 1054.00 Parts: 65.88 Total: 1119.88

10 percent discount bmw p&l, 111.99

I agree with you totally. SHAME ON BMWNA. Our vehicles are virtually identical. Additionally, my X5 is the FIRST BMW I have ever owned, so if previous ownership has anything to do with it I didn't qualify when they warrantied my transmission work!

I am still waiting for a call back, again. I think they are blowing me off because they are sick of hearing from me lol.

Just an FYI, forget about them helping you out. Pay for the service, and start looking for an Indy shop that is good and deals with high end cars. I asked my Indy guy about your problem, he told me that the price the other guy was asking for was crazy!!! I still believe you made a mistake going to the dealer. But I understand your position, till the next time (let there be no, next time) Look around for a good, honest Indy. This way, you will avoid this B.S. Good Luck ...

Patience is a virtue, and persistence pays off (a little name dropping doesn't hurt either). I got a call from Elaine today after last being contacted about a week ago. I kept pushing the issue that I personally know someone who had the same issue covered and that this is a known issue / recall.

BMWNA has re-evaluated my case and has now agreed to cover 50% of the bill. This is on top of the 10% discount I was already given at the dealership. This is their final offer, and I have taken it. I think this is fair, though I was definately hoping they would pick the whole thing up. All in all this will end up costing my pops $530.00 which isn't that bad. In the future I will definately be going to an indy mech. For now, I am happy that the only problem I have to worry about is my two broken windows lol. Case closed :)

Ah.......patience and persistence.........that's how I got through college! Ya did good even though BMWNA should have done ya better.

Problems like the premature failure of a torque converter radial seal, which in absolutely no way can be related to "normal wear and tear", should be 100% warrantied by BMWNA as their failure to do so negatively impacts Customer perception that their high $$$$$ vehicle is high quality. Customers pay high $$$$$ with the assumption of high quality. It's a shame that many at BMWNA and many of their dealers just don't get it.

I'm glad I could be of some help in your coercing BMWNA to partially do the right thing.

Well I would definately say that it is highly probable that i wouldn't have gotten jack if I didn't reference your case. It also helps to know what you are talking about when it comes to the technical stuff.

I agree they should have paid for it all, but some is much better than none.

As for the seal, you are right it should not be an issue. Exactly why it is I don't really know. It sounds like the bolts are the culprit to me, funny that this is not seen on the later year vehicles. Obviously they found out about the problem, kept it hush-hush and fixed it on the later year vehicles. I think BMW is really good about doing this secrecy shit.

I have heard things about the original magic wheels being totally messed up and BMW very quietly giving customers completely brand new vehicles while they fixed all the defective units and then re-sold the vehicles. Countless stories about tranmissions time after time having major malfunctions on BRAND new high $ vehicles. Everyone knows the window parts suck total ass. This is the result of cutting corners, sacrificing quality for quantity. Maybe it is hit or miss, or is it model/year specific?

I have even heard of a lawyer who won a huge class act law suit against BMW becuase a certain year 7 series split in half like warm bread when it got t-boned, killing two children in the rear seat. The lawyer bought a brand new 7-series and had it cut in half as evidence in which the cross-section very clearly exposed the spotty welds that were at the time being made by drunken factory workers in one of the german plants.

I must say though, that I love BMW's and I love my car, and that I am happy that i got somewhat taken care of but i shouldn't have to piss and moan for that, definately not for BMW price tags. Things have changed big time for BMW. The german built enthusiast "Ultimate Driving Machine" is not built the way it used to be. The engineering and the words on sitckers on the vehicle might still be german, but they are being built right here in our backyard and perhaps the ones still being built in germany are not being built with the same care and precision as they once were.