4.4 Dry start knock mobile1 0-40
 

Ok my test has begun my 2001 4.4 with 70,000 miles has been doing the dry start knock only twice this summer but one it got cold it knocks for about 2 seconds almost every morning I changed my oil from castrol synthetic 5-30 to mobile1 0-40 full synthetic thursday my reults so far 9-28-2007 no knock 9-29-2007 no knock 9-30-2007 no knock 10-1-2007 no knock 10-2-2007 to 10-6-2007 no knock 10-7-2007 well it get really cold last night 31 deg. verry slight knock on start only for about .5 second first time since I changed to 0-40 10-8-2007 to 10-15-2007 no knock at all 10-16-2007 to 10-21-2007 no knock and it is really cold and snowing so far so good 10-25-2007 still no knock 10-26-2007 to 11-5-2007 still no knock seems to be working

I run 0-40 in my FJZ-80. Its worked wonderful. Will be interesting to see how it does in your X......

What were you using before? I have run Mobil 1 in all my vehicles(except the X5) for the last 30 yrs. Never had a problem and only compliments on how clean the oil pan was when checking at 100K. Great product. Will be switching the 2001 over to it next oil change.

I was running castol gtx 5w-30w

Utahx5
I added another comment after I stated that the M-1, 0-40 had solved the knock issue. The knock is back with a vengence, I hear it almost every time I start however; the dealer changed the cam chain tensioner (as a guess), they will change the oil pump on Wednesday 10/17/07, I'll post the results after a few days. It seems that there is a check valve built onto the oil pump that may be sticking, therefore allowing the oil to drain back out of the galleries, prompting the knock. I asked them to put a direct reading gage on the system to see what the reading were but, I think they like to experiment with these things. Fortunately for me, the warranty covers experimentation too.
Kelsvile

when did your knock start? perhaps has to do with winter gas coming into rotation...

OK, The dealer compleated the surgery: new cam chain tensioner and oil pump, verdict: KNOCKS EVEN MORE OFTEN! I think the "more often is because they changed the oil from 0/40 back to 5/30. I had the "Thats whatthese do at that milage" lecture when I picked it up. They say it is the Vanos system clattering but, what I don't understand is why wouldn't it rattle all the time, why just at start and why did it suddenly start after an oil change? Well that's my story, I now have 85,000 miles on it and it's too damn embarrasing to keep it because it turns every head when I start it up.

kelsvile try bleeding the air out of the system let the car warm up to full temp run it in neutral at 2500 rpm for 5 minutes let it idle for 5 minutes then do it again at 3000 rpm for 5 minutes

The rattle your describing sounds like lifter chatter. It's normal, there is no damage being done. When the engine shuts down, if the cam is holding a valve open the valve spring pushes against the lifter. The end result is the oil in the lifter seeps out and back to the oil pan. Upon start up that valve and lifter chatter until engine oil pressure refills the the lifter. My 2001 4.4 chatters occasionally and she has 126000 miles on her. It is worse when I don't drive her for several days (more time for the oil to seep out).

The only way to stop the chatter is to replace the lifters. In case your thinking of having it done, don't. You'll be wasting your money.

supersteve: love the listing of your lawnmower - any mods planned? headlights for night mowing? Sirius or XM? :rofl:

Now you have me thinking. . . I already have my helmet for the Concours wired with a walkman. I guess I could wear that and mount a light on it for night time lawn mower ops. The neighbors might think I'm a little strange wearing a helmet while I push my lawn mower though. Even more reason to do it at night.:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

Thanks for the input!
 

The dealer insists that the noise is part of the vanos system but, to me is really acts more like a lifter hydrolic issue rather than a rotating clearance noise to me.

I dont see what the difference between running the engine at 2500 then shutting it off and repeating as apposed to just driving it a couple hundred miles at that rpm (Which I've done). As far as the lifter issue goes, I agree, if it is the lifters rattling I'm not worried about damage either but..My clients wonder if we are going to break down after I start it up. You'd think a quality vehicle wouldn't embarrace you each time you start it up. Well, it's back to normal, rattling almost every start and longer after litting longer (over night). Even louder now since the dealer replaced the 0-40 with 5-30.

If I do the lifters, do ether of you know what kind of time is involved and expense (Parts price) and is it a lifter per valve or per pair?

Thanks for all the input!

Kelsvile:confused:

There is a way to find out if it's the Vanos. Before you start open the hood, pull the cover off the top of the engine. Get a long screwdriver (or mechanics stethoscope) place the blade of the screwdriver on the one of the Vanos actuators. Place your thumb over the end of the screwdriver. Put the knuckle of that thumb over the opening to your ear and have someone else start it. If it sound like a box of parts shaking around it's the Vanos. If it sounds like machine parts moving look somewhere else (other Vanos actuator). If they both sound ok it's valve noise.

The other option is to change the oil to a 10w40 or even 15w50 and see what happens. The thicker oil will resist getting pushed out of the lifters.

there are 32 lifters in the engine. One on top of each valve. According to RealOEM they are about $31 a piece.

I would try the thicker oil before going to change all the lifters.

Read
 

Engine - MIL ON/Codes Set/Tapping/Rattling NoiseNotesGROUP 11
Engine
11 01 01
Woodcliff Lake, NJ
June 2001
Service Engineering
This Service Information bulletins supersedes S.I. 11 05 90 dated May 1990.
SUBJECT
Hydraulic Bucket Tappets (HVA) Troubleshooting Tips
MODEL
All with M42, M44, M50, M52, M54, M60, M62, S50, S52 and S62 engines
SITUATION
Two common reasons for the replacement of hydraulic bucket tappets (HVA) are:
1.Tapping / rattling noise from the valve train area or
2.Binding HVA element
CAUSE
Tapping / rattling noise from the valve train area may have various different causes depending on engine oil level, engine / oil temperature, when the noise is heard (cold start, engine hot), etc.
The following Complaint, Cause and Correction scenarios will assist in troubleshooting for HVA element noise:
SITUATION 1A
Tapping / rattling noises from the area of the valve train up to 20 seconds after a cold start.
CAUSE
These noises can be traced back to the higher viscosity of cold mineral based engine oil.
For a brief moment insufficient oil reaches the high pressure chamber of the HVA element via the high pressure valve after start up. This results in clearance between the HVA element and the camshaft lobe which then causes a tapping / rattling noise.
Influencing factors for this complaint:
Viscosity of engine oil used
Ambient temperature
This condition is not caused by mechanical damage to any engine components and has no damaging effect on the service life of the engine.
CORRECTION
Check that oil viscosity is matched to ambient temperature range at which the vehicle is being operated. Refer to Owners Manual or Operating Fluids Manual (Temperature - Viscosity chart) for further information.
SITUATION 1B
Tapping / rattling noises in the area of the valve train for the first 8 - 10 consecutive cold starts.
This condition usually occurs after the engine has been turned off at normal operating temperature and then not warmed up to full operating temperature during the next series of cold starts.
This operating condition can occur, for example, on new vehicles which have been delivered to your BMW center (due to loading and unloading from the transport trucks, etc.).
CAUSE
Hot engine oil initially escapes from the oil galley of the HVA elements when the engine is stopped. A small amount of oil also escapes through the gaps between the HVA elements and the HVA housings in the cylinder head.
The oil then contracts while the engine is cooling down and allows air to enter the oil system.
During the subsequent cold start, this air can be forced into the HVA elements (causing air pockets) through the build up of engine oil pressure. The resulting clearance between the HVA elements and the camshaft lobes causes the tapping / rattling noises.
This HVA tapping / rattling noise is not dependent on the amount of time the engine is off, but rather on:
The temperature of the engine when it was turned off (operating temperature - hot)
The number of subsequent cold starts without the engine being warmed up to operating temperature.
CORRECTION
Run the engine to dissipate (bleed) the air trapped in the high pressure chamber of the HVA elements.
Refer to the HVA bleeding procedure described below.
SITUATION 1C
Tapping / rattling noises in the area of the valve train after extreme cornering/lateral acceleration (engine oil level at or below minimum).
Note: These valve train noises will not stop until the engine is run for approximately 10 - 15 minutes at an engine speed of at least 2,500 rpm with the oil at the proper level.
CAUSE
During extreme cornering/lateral acceleration with the engine oil level at or below minimum, air can be drawn in by the oil pump (oil foaming). The air which is drawn into the oil system can enter the HVA elements. The resulting clearance between the HVA elements and the camshaft lobes causes the tapping / rattling noises.
Correction:
Run the engine to dissipate (bleed) the air trapped in the high pressure chamber of the HVA elements.
Refer to the HVA bleeding procedure described below.
HVA BLEEDING PROCEDURE:
--Check oil level - correct if necessary.
--Let engine idle at operating temperature with the hood open to verify valve train tapping / rattling noise.
--If a tapping / rattling noise can be heard from the valve train, run the engine for 3 minutes without load at approximately 2,500 to 3,000 rpm (bleeding procedure).
--Then with the engine at idle listen for valve train noises again.
Note: Only listen for noises when the engine has reached minimum oil pressure, i.e. after a waiting period (at idle) of approximately 15 - 30 seconds.
--If no more noises can be heard, the test procedure is complete. No further action is necessary, the engine is working properly.
--If the tapping / rattling noises can still be heard, the bleeding procedure must be repeated (run the engine for 3 minutes at 2,500 - 3,000 rpm).
If necessary, repeat this procedure up to five times.
--If the tapping / rattling noises can still be heard, the bleeding procedure must be performed one final time for approximately 15 minutes.
--If no more noises can be heard, the test procedure is complete. No further action is necessary, the engine is working properly.
If the tapping / rattling noise is still heard after performing the above HVA Bleeding Procedure the following scenarios will assist in further troubleshooting for HVA element noise:
If the noise is coming from all HVA elements an oil supply problem is the most likely cause.
Check engine oil pressure as outlined in the appropriate repair manual, group 11.
If the oil pump pressure (at idle = minimum pressure or regulated = maximum pressure) is below specification a visual inspection of the oil pump and oil pump pick up in the oil pan should be performed with emphasis on the pick up gasket and control valve 0 ring were applicable. See repair manual group 11, section 11 41 000 for further oil pump information.
Notes: A faulty oil pump control valve 0 ring or oil pump pick up gasket (slight tear in 0 ring or gasket) may not always result in a low oil pressure indication when performing an oil pressure check.
The air drawn in to the lubrication system via a defective gasket or 0 ring will cause oil foaming and HVA tapping / rattling noises.
If the noise is still coming from an individual HVA element after performing the above HVA Bleeding Procedure the suspected element(s) can be isolated as follows:
--Remove cylinder head cover.
--Turn the engine over (normal direction of rotation) until the camshaft lobe of the HVA element to be checked is pointing away from the HVA element. (engine valve completely closed)
--Repeatedly apply a force of approximately 10N (2.25 lb.f.) to the HVA element with your thumb or using a folding arm tool BMW special tool number 90 88 6 009 321 (included in the BMW assembly wedge kit PN 90 88 6 009 310) or a hard wood wedge.
If the HVA element collapses slightly as though it is spring loaded, this is a sign that air is trapped in the high pressure chamber.
--Apply a force of approximately 20 - 30N (4.50 - 6.75 lb.f.) for 10 - 15 seconds to the HVA element using your thumb, folding arm tool or a hard wood wedge.
If clearance between the camshaft lobe and the HVA element is created when the force is applied, this indicates that the check valve incorporated in the HVA element is not closing / sealing properly due to contamination.
Release the applied force from the HVA element and using a feeler gauge measure the clearance between the HVA element and the camshaft lobe.
If any clearance is detected this indicates that the HVA element is sticking.
--Conduct the checks as described above on all HVA elements.
--Mark any suspect "soft" HVA element(s) for further examination.
Remove HVA elements as outlined in the appropriate repair manual, group 11 and visually inspect. Replace any suspect "soft" HVA element(s) and check others for extreme wear (deep grooves, scratches, etc.) which may also need to be replaced.
Note: Always reinstall used HVA elements in the same bore which they were removed from. This avoids possible binding due to different wear patterns between the bore in the HVA housing and HVA element.
SITUATION 2
Binding HVA element.
CAUSE
An HVA element which is binding (element stuck in the extended position) will not allow a valve (intake or exhaust) to seat properly causing valve seat leakage.
This type of HVA failure may not cause a tapping / rattling noise but the customer complaint may be: "engine runs rough during the warm up phase and runs good when warmed up" and/or the "Check Engine" lamp is on.
If the "Check Engine" lamp is illuminated due to a binding HVA element(s) one or more misfire fault codes may be set in the Engine Control Module (ECM/DME).
Note: Basic troubleshooting should be performed first before checking for a binding HVA element to eliminate all other possible factors / components which could set the misfire faults such as low fuel level, a faulty spark plug, etc.
Refer to Service Information bulletin 12 02 97 for further misfire fault information.
Troubleshooting tips:
--If there is a binding HVA element in one or more cylinders as described above a misfire fault can typically be reproduced in the affected cylinder(s) by duplicating the conditions in which the misfire occurred according to the DME/ECM fault code description i.e., at engine temperature = X, engine speed = X, etc.
--A binding HVA element which is causing a misfire in one specific cylinder will not "move" to an other cylinder and will always cause a misfire fault in the affected cylinder.
--Performing the "Smooth-Running" test (found in the DME control unit functions section of DIS) will assist in pin pointing a cylinder with a binding HVA element.
A cylinder with a binding HVA element will indicate a high reading when compared to the other good cylinders.
--Since a binding HVA element may in some cases be intermittent (engine only runs rough when cold) if a cylinder leak down check is used for troubleshooting this should be performed when the problem exists, for example: compare the cylinder leakage rates to each other with a cold engine to determine the cylinder with the extreme leakage rate.
A cylinder with a binding HVA element will indicate a leakage rate above 15%.
Remove suspected HVA elements as outlined in the appropriate repair manual group 11 and visually inspect.
--A binding HVA element will typically have a high pressure piston- (located in the center of the HVA element body) which extends out approximately 3mm further when compared to the other HVA elements removed from the cylinder head.
Replace any binding HVA element(s) and check others for extreme wear (deep grooves, scratches, etc.) which may also need to be replaced.
Note: Always reinstall used HVA elements in the same bore which they were removed from. This avoids possible binding due to different wear patterns between the bore in the HVA housing and HVA element.
WARRANTY INFORMATION
Information only.

Some of you guys are reporting knocks after you do an oil change. This may or may not be related, but my question to you is what oil filter are you changing to? I had similar knocking issues after I changed out my OEM filters with aftermarket MANN filters from Bavauto. These aftermarket filters were junk. After switching back to BMW-branded filters from the dealer my 2-second knocking start went away completely. Just a thought...

WolfX5 you are correct that not all filters are created equal. I prefer the BMW filters also.

Unfortunatly, I still get a rattle occasionaly, especially after sitting for an extended time (weeks not hours). As the post from UTAHX5 says it's probably from a leaking check valve in the lifter (bucket). It also states (as have I) that there is no damage being done if the rattle stops shortly after starting.

The item that I find curious is the air can be sucked into the system if the engine is not completely warmed up. I guess if you only need to drive a few miles to work you should either let it sit and warm for an extended time or find a job further away from home.

Knocking for that first couple seconds is a normal BMW thing. Dont waste your money trying to fix it.

I was skeptical - but WOW, it is actually true. Changed my bavauto Mann filter back to BMW OEM and the noise is gone! The bottom line: stay with OEM filters, there's only a few bucks difference.

Is the dealer the only place you can get a "BMW" oil filter? Or is there a equivliant that I can get at a auto parts store?

The dealer, or a trusted mail order supplier that is selling OE BMW parts.

Read the above thread about people who bought "equivalents" at an auto parts store.

You can buy OEM filters (Mann, Mahle, etc) but there is no guarantee that just because those companies manufacture filters for BMW, that the filter they sell you over the counter is actually the same. Personally, I would only use OE from a dealer, because that also greatly reduces the chances of getting a counterfeit filter in a different box. The filters referenced above may actually have been not Mann, but packaged as Mann. For the low cost of a filter from the dealer, it just isn't worth the risk.

Dry Start Knock
 

My 01 X5 had this same issue went to 5w 40 Penz Platnum euorpean blend and the start knock dissapeared, was running MB1 5w 30