4.4 X5 with 5hp24 problems
 

For the last 2-3 weeks now I've been dealing with a slipping reverse gear. It would initially slip before fully engaging, but now it has completely stopped moving in reverse period and while down shifting in manual to 1st is occasionally displays no signs of engine braking. All forward gears remain normal otherwise.

I've been doing some research into this and it is either one of two problems;

1-It is a Valve Body issue as per the earlier 5hp30 transmission where it would wear the check balls out thus causing the line pressure to the F clutch pack to be diminished, with the familiar no reverse.

***
5HP30

...In this transmission, the problem is that the plastic ball in the valve body passes through the plate. This problem is solved by installing slightly larger balls. If I hadn’t read about this problem numerous times through the aforementioned sources, there is a good chance we would have avoided the repair, or suggested a complete rebuilt unit...

quoted from
http://www.continentalimports.com/ser_ic100076.html
***


2-Or the slightly more complicated F Clutch Issue where the clutch seal itself is likely blown as per the 4hp22.

***
COMPLAINT:
ZF4HP22 NO REVERSE
(F CLUTCH CYLINDER FAILURE)

Vehicles equipped with the ZF4HP22 may come to the shop with a complaint of intermittent or no reverse. All of the other ranges may seem fine.

QUALIFICATION: During the road test it may be noted that there is no engine braking in manual first or second gear.

CAUSE: If an examination of the valve body fails to pin point the problem, an internal inspection will be necessary. Severe ring groove wear on the (F) clutch cylinder where the (E) clutch rides or even ring grooves missing because of wear is possible with a new ring installed on the drum, side clearance should be .003-.006 in.

CORRECTION: A new F clutch cylinder must be installed if any wear or damage is found. New sealing rings must also be installed. Steel rings mast be used for the E clutch sealing grooves.

The part number for the F clutch cylinder is 24-23-1217-088.
***

I've been reading a lot on this forums and like most people on here, i refuse to pay lots of money to have this problem fixed. My issue is instead of BMW diagnosing the actual root of the problem they just opt to replace the entire transmission (vaguely saying the transmission is defective), and for the unlucky ones, usually at our cost.

I can't be exactly sure which problem I have, But I'm hoping it will be problem #1 where it would be a worn out check ball, which would be labour intensive but cheap... If it's #2, I'll deal with that when the time comes.

I'm going to be dropping the pan and removing the valve body and measuring the diameter of the check balls this weekend. This should shed some light onto the subject for me. There is a detailed how-to with pics on the 5hp30 for reference.
http://www.bimmerboard.com/forums/posts/356031

The 5hp24 Valve body itself
http://www.freddiestransmissions.com/CIMG1774.JPG

List of other cars with 5hp24 transmissions that i may steal one out of
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZF_5HP24_transmission

People to talk to
http://www.noreverse.org/repair.html
-ZF Parts passenger car transmission distributor 1-800-660-2269. You can also email your inquiry to [email protected]

Additional Helpful Info
http://www.bavarian-board.co.uk/foru...TID=39297&PN=1


Hopefully someone finds this helpful as it was a real pain to find any information regarding our specific problem. I was hoping someone just like me would have already gone done this path and done this (replaced the check balls) but it doesn't seem like anyone has made that post yet.

If anyone can provide me with anymore detailed information regarding the ZP5HP24, knowledge is power and I'd appreciate that.

Regards,
Frank

:xoutpost:

Thanks!

BLAST!
 

Well it seems my ranting on about how BMW needlessly replaces transmission was a bit premature in this case. It seems that my problem is actually internal, as i now suspect it's the infamous F Clutch Seal.

This evening I have pulled the VB off the transmission and out of the car, and pulled apart housing 1, 2, 3 and the channel plate on the valve body to find that the little check ball that used to be in housing 3 on the 5hp30 is now replaced by a check valve instead on the 5hp24. The check ball that is in the channel plate is replaced by a metal ball on the 5hp24 versus the Teflon ball on the 5hp30.

Everything else looks normal and clean, I feel quite a bit disappointed at this point as now I know that the extent of my problems is a lot more severe.

I'd be willing to try replacing that seal on my own if anyone can shed some light on that one for me! I can't seem to find any information on that one. BMW TIS or the ZF catalog don't go into any detail...

Sorry, man. My knowledge of the transmission is limited to vaguely knowing its location. Regardless, good luck and welcome to the board.

Sorry, I haven't been inside a BMW automatic (although I understand the valve body and front clutch concepts from other automatics).

From your other current post, it appears you replaced the factory fluid with a non-approved and lower spec fluid, about 40,000 km ago. Now you have an internal failure, it seems.

Do you see any connection here? Is there a possibility that the lower spec fluid may have contributed to an internal failure? Personally, I am in the camp of not changing fluid, as I believe that most of the transmission failures are not caused by fluid degradation as much as they are by sensor failures, and other problems not related to the fluid. I would run the transmission to failure, and then replace it, using only the factory fluid. That is just me, I have no more evidence that this is the most economical approach than those who change the fluid believing that it will help on principle.

I hope you get it sorted out. It would be interesting to understand the sequence of events a little better.

Thanks for the input. I'm going to play a little bit of devils advocate and offer some food for thought. I'm not discounting your opinion, but I'm a firm believer in changing your fluids, nothing lasts forever.

Yes, the ESSO LT71141 fluid is superior to regular mercon/dexron III but the most notable difference on the specs sheets are the LongLife or LifeTime additives packages that are added to the fluid more so than the sheer properties etc. Esso also says that this specific fluid only has a 3 year shelf life. Three years? How is it supposed to last a life time in an environment that is much harsher than that of a bottle. I have the spec sheets somewhere but I'll save that for another time, to save me going on a rant.

Not to mention I have a land rover with the 4HP24 (basically the same transmission with an extra gear) and it uses mercon/dexron III, and it's kind of funny to see every big car manufacturer (AUDI, BMW, JAGUAR, RANGE ROVER) with the exact same transmission 5HP24 , all use their own "SPECIAL FLUID"... Sounds more like a clever Marketing ploy than science to me. (Especially at $30/liter)

I must say that I am typically pretty abusive to my car, continually redlining my poor baby to say the least, and I am surprised how I have not noted any wear (metal or clutch) in the pan of my transmission since changing the fluid. The old fluid had quite a notable amount of soot and metal, and I particularly point my finger at fluid breakdown. If on the other hand my friction material and clutches burned out or grenaded, yes, at that point I would think using this fluid was definitely a bad idea, but that is not the scenario.

The main reason however, is the fact that we all know that the No Reverse on these transmissions, (X5, 7 SERIES, 5 SERIES and even similar on the 3 SERIES) have been occurring quite prominently, there are even many, many site dedicated to these very symptoms.

http://www.noreverse.org/

Most people have been unlucky and haven't even made it to 170,000km as I have, and lots have considerably lower millage. At the end of the day my point is, this also happens to people that do exactly as BMW says, and leave the transmission fluid intact or replace with the 71141. It may even seem that it actually happens more, but I think this is more due to an internal design flaw. As BMW made recall to the 7 series http://forums.audiworld.com/a8/msgs/150731.phtml

Something else to note is how BMW changed their service schedules a few years ago from the regular changing of all fluids at some point in time to the LifeTime everything after they started including service with purchases of new vehicles...

I have a feeling I may in fact have hit a tender subject, but I welcome the discussion. However I do not endorse the use of non recommended fluids, I just don't feel that paying $30/liter is justified and wanted to prove to myself there were alternatives.

I am trying to get my friend to fix my transmission for a couple cases of beer, I just have to get it out of the x5, and being under the car yesterday it looks as if it is going to be one PITA, anyone have any suggestions?

Regards,
Frank

Frank:

A thoughtful post, lots of details. A couple of comments:

• Agree that the fluid is very expensive. Problem is, we don't know exactly what they changed, if anything. I suspect they have some of their own additives, but there isn't a lot of detail available
• Not sure how you get soot in a transmission, but agree that you could have black sludge. No combustion going on in there, to my knowledge. Probably semantics.
• Agree that transmission failures happen irrespective of fluid changes. I haven't seen a good analysis that shows the correlation of fluid changes and failures. I know that BMW transmissions don't last as long as many would like, certainly not equal to engine life as an example. I think the fluid is transmission lifetime, not vehicle lifetime. I just don't think that changing the fluid is shown to increase transmission life. While the idea of fresh fluid is appealing, it comes at the cost of disturbing what is there, ie it isn't a free benefit IMO. My sense is that the transmission is going to fail at some point, and driving habits, as well as luck of the draw, has as much to do with it as fluid changes.
• The No Reverse site is interesting. A bit of a rant, but interesting.
• I think that the change to included maintenance is not as related to the move to longer term fluid change intervals as some put forth. Fluids are lasting longer whether or not maintenance is included. You don't get transmission fluid change included in your Canadian X5, so it is more of a US theory. Also, BMW continues to pay the warranty costs. Believing that this maintenance practice leads to a failure just after the warranty expires seems too much like a conspiracy plot to me.
• I do believe strongly in changing fluids. I just don't include automatic transmission fluids in that list. Engine oil, coolant, and brake fluid are at the top of my list. If I owned a vehicle long enough, I would change the power steering fluid. I don't see the need to change the fluid in all compartments, as the contamination paths are different. If I went offroading, I would change diff fluids, for example. I don't think that engine oil change intervals relate to transmission fluid change intervals, due to the lack of combustion byproducts, the sealed nature of the system, etc.
• Not a tender subject at all, in fact it is an interesting one.

Best of luck in your repairs.

Jeff

Jeff,

From previous and current experience on a variety of transmissions, soot comes from the friction material, that very slowly wears down over a very long time, just a powdery substance that is suspended in the fluid and tends to cling to the wall of the transmission, completely normal from everyday use and product of the friction in the transmission when changing gears. You're right no combustion in there at all, that would definitely be cause for alarm.

It would be nice to see transmissions last the life of the entire car...

I Agree that the "No Reverse" website is a bite of a rant, but when dealt the 'No Reverse' cards, I too have already been prone to rant on about it, what a PITA! My problem is I haven't made enough money last year, where I wouldn't have to worry about this, and just take it to my trusty mechanic like old times. Lots of Money fixes everything with ease, and 2008 is the year, haha.

I wasn't meaning there was some conspiracy in place, I do recognize our modern engines run a lot better and cleaner, and the advancements made in fluids and components (well except the one that failed, in my case) have greatly improved. But I had a friend that is a BMW shop foreman, and his biggest issue was when they revised the maintenance program to 30,000km sometimes even more, a lot more cars came in with maintenance related glitches, and he said himself most cars, need to be serviced before that. And from a business stand point since BMW does pay for oil changes etc, it's cheaper for them to extend the intervals until this period is over. Primarily BMW has always used synthetic oils, which tend to last about 20,000km, but before this free oil service program was introduced they recommend 5 or 7,000km service intervals regardless, this is when you had to pay for it. That was my point, BMW seems to want you to do more of it when you have to pay and less when they have to, naturally.


Differentials, that is something else I also serviced, front and rear, they are also seal for life, and I have not done major off roading until recently for the life of my vehicle. But despite the front diff being a sealed system, my diff fluid was black like tar and ran like molasses. My rear diff however was only brown, I have personally noticed that for some reason the Front Diff does run considerably hotter, despite more of the torque supposed to be exiting through the rear wheels.... I did service the diffs again at the next oil change since I had done a lot of off roading, as this is good practice, however all was normal.

I think everything has a shelf life and everything eventually doesn't do its job as good as it once did, and since there is a lot of heat build up in the transmission i think whatever is in there will only be able to do it for so long until it stops. But noted I'm the one sitting here with no reverse and you are not.:nanana:

Those are the reasons I believe in fluid maintenance, but you have brought up great points. I hope others find our rants useful, haha. Someone just has to come help me take me transmission out now.

Regards,
Frank

Thanks for the welcome, I'd kinda like not to have to be so intimate with my transmission though, just knowing it was roughly underneath me and working would have been awesome.:hitanykey:

transmission problem x5 and 328
 

I own a 2001 4.4L X5 with 82K, and I want to share my recent experience with the ZF5HP24 transmission.

Symptons:

1) When I brake from 30 to 40mph to a stop, there is a "clunk" or a hard downshift in the transmission.

2) The X5 will not shift into reverse sometimes, especially in the morning. Sometimes in reverse, the reverse does not engage, except after stepping on the accelerator and rpm is 2 to 3K. Then the reverse would engage suddenly.

After seaching x5world and googling, I tried inexpensive ways to solve the problem.

1) reset the program (turn key on 5sec., turn off 5sec. and turn on engine)

2) replaced the transmission fluid and put in latest transmission software.

After the "inexpensive fixes", in addition to the original symptons, I had

1) when goin up a slight incline, stepping on the accelerator, I would have a sudden jerk. The rpm would increase and then transmission would engage. feels like being rear ended.

I own an auto repair shop and decided to bite the bullet and investigate. I removed the transmission, bought a retrofit kit and opened the transmission. I would like to mention that the transmission fluid was dark gray before changing, and was also a gray color when I removed the transmission (2 weeks new fluid).

I replaced the parts from the retrofit kit into the transmission and looked for possible causes. One of the o ring look very slightly worn. However, one of the clutch drum housing had very deep cuts in the groove from the clutch (highly unusual). It appears that was where most of the fine metal came from. I cleaned the valve body and did not change anything in it. I also replaced that the clutch drum housing (I am not sure if this is the correct term for the part b/c the groove is on the outside). We put everything back and

Hurray all the symptons were gone!

Coincidentally, the same time I was working on the X5, a 2000 328 with the ZF5HP17 transmission was also in the shop with a no reverse sympton. I had also found the noreverse.org website while investigating the x5 issue. Originally, we were just going to replace the transmission with a used one. After finding out from noreverse.org, we decided that a used transmission might have the same problem. So we opened the ZF5HP17, and found the exact problem as shown in the tranny autopsy. I have the part and could post a picture.

However, the cause of the no reverse in the X5 and the 328 was different. One, the lip of the drum was breaking whereas the X5 drum had cuts in the grooves. I do not believe they are the same drums though.

Hope this helps.

Great post. Interesting that the two ZF transmissions you went in to had apparently different failure modes (unless another root cause resulted in the two different failures on the housings)

Thank you for the input LangleyinLA, of course any little bit of information I get is extremely useful. I would be very interested in seeing that part and picture(s) at your earliest convenience. I have not had any time this last week to even touch my transmission as I've been swamped at work.

Since you did take your transmission out, are there any pointers or shortcuts you'd be able to pass along, seeing as how I'll be starting to remove the transmission as soon as i find some time, anything that will help me go at it easier and quicker will be awesome.

Regards,
Frank

Jeff and Frank-
Excellent reading, I must say. You two seems to know what you are doing...any comments on my earlier post regarding Hydrolock? I am in a real bind here and would love for anyone to give their opinions....thanks guys.

Lyn

Hi everyone.. I was just doing a google search trying to find the location of the check ball that goes in the 5hp24 trans. I found this post and thought I would share my transmission story. It is over at BimmerBoard.. Can view it here http://www.bimmerboard.com/forums/posts/474000

Sorry to barge in.. Lol Now back to try to find out where this check ball and the orifice tubes go.

Jim

Thanks for sharing Jim, this will come in handy when i venture down this path, it's been cold and i've not had enough time to yank my transmission out yet....

I hope these pics help you out, I didn't take any pics while reassembling because I forgot, but let me know if i can help you out... I've uploaded the 5MP photos so you can zoom in...

Remember that you must install the orifices into the channel plate, and the face of the gasket in the picture showing goes onto the face of channel plate showing, you must install them in the proper order, use the oil filter pickup hole as a reference.

Gasket


Channel Plate

Frank

this is great info. where in LA is your shop so I can take my x5 there?

Here is the failed F Clutch Piston Seal

http://members.shaw.ca/allbusiness/5...s/CIMG2879.JPG

Note the rounded edges, these should be almost flat/sharp

http://members.shaw.ca/allbusiness/5...s/CIMG2881.JPG

This is what it should look like.

http://members.shaw.ca/allbusiness/5...s/CIMG2882.JPG

The inner seal is blown too.

http://members.shaw.ca/allbusiness/5...s/CIMG2885.JPG

http://members.shaw.ca/allbusiness/5...s/CIMG2886.JPG

It caused the friction material in the F Clutch pack to wear and also warped
the discs. The rest of the friction material was basically like new.

http://members.shaw.ca/allbusiness/5...s/CIMG2888.JPG

Great writeups! I found this thread so informative.

My question is what's the odd of being hit by the tranny problem within 100k miles?

I have a high mileage x5 (170,000km), however others have even higher mileage 4.4i X5 and the same transmission with no problems.

After working with this transmission and seeing its internals first hand, IMO this is a pretty solid transmission, with the amount of mileage on my trans, all the other gears/clutches show virtually zero wear, there are part numbers on the friction material itself and other than being oily I can still read them clearly (Despite my very aggressive driving habits and track days).

It is noted the the F Clutch in this transmission is the inherent weak spot for it, if it were not to have failed, I wouldn't see an issue with putting half a million miles on this transmission easily (with fluid maintenance of course).

There do seem to be a large number of people that are currently having this problem, however I believe there is an even larger number of people that are not, and will not, we just don't hear about those circumstances.

I don't want to seem that I'm just telling myself this to feel better, but those are my two cents.

excellent thread! I hope this doesn't occur with my 2001 4.4 but u never know. swissfrank please keep us informed with your fix.

The last set of pictures, noted I didn't take many pictures along the way.

Empty Transmission Case
http://members.shaw.ca/allbusiness/5...s/CIMG2889.JPG
My Shift Selector Seals were leaking so they were replaced.
http://members.shaw.ca/allbusiness/5...s/CIMG2890.JPG
Model and Part # stamp.
http://members.shaw.ca/allbusiness/5...s/CIMG2891.JPG
http://members.shaw.ca/allbusiness/5...s/CIMG2892.JPG
http://members.shaw.ca/allbusiness/5...s/CIMG2894.JPG
This is were the F Clutch back is located and bolted to.
http://members.shaw.ca/allbusiness/5...s/CIMG2895.JPG
F Clutch is in the back of the transmission case and is the last thing to remove.
http://members.shaw.ca/allbusiness/5...s/CIMG2896.JPG
http://members.shaw.ca/allbusiness/5...s/CIMG2897.JPG
http://members.shaw.ca/allbusiness/5...s/CIMG2898.JPG
http://members.shaw.ca/allbusiness/5...s/CIMG2899.JPG
ATF
http://members.shaw.ca/allbusiness/5...s/CIMG2900.JPG
New Friction Material for the F Clutch Pack.
http://members.shaw.ca/allbusiness/5...s/CIMG2901.JPG
Soaked them in ATF for a few minutes before installing.
http://members.shaw.ca/allbusiness/5...s/CIMG2902.JPG
These are those shift shaft seals.
http://members.shaw.ca/allbusiness/5...s/CIMG2903.JPG
The F Clutch Pack, replaced the golden colour piston underneath the spring, this was the point of failure in my transmission, and caused the Friction material in the F Clutch pack to wear out prematurely.
http://members.shaw.ca/allbusiness/5...s/CIMG2904.JPG
Frictions and Steels installed.
http://members.shaw.ca/allbusiness/5...s/CIMG2905.JPG
F Clutch bolted to the back of the transmission Case.
http://members.shaw.ca/allbusiness/5...s/CIMG2907.JPG
http://members.shaw.ca/allbusiness/5...s/CIMG2908.JPG
F Clutch, the Planetary Gear Set goes on next, and the rest of the clutch packs (A,B,C,D,and E) from here on in.
http://members.shaw.ca/allbusiness/5...s/CIMG2906.JPG
Completed and assembled Tranmission with Transfer Case, just like that!
http://members.shaw.ca/allbusiness/5...s/CIMG2909.JPG
http://members.shaw.ca/allbusiness/5...s/CIMG2910.JPG

swissfrank,

Good pics. It is very interesting to see detailed pics of an X5 transmission.

Reposting this info in here as well.
***
I should warn that this repair is not for the faint of heart, you should be somewhat mechanically inclined, and grasp somewhat of an understanding. I'm not saying it's particularly difficult but know what you are getting yourself into.

This is hardly a DIY guide, but my experiences.

Working underneath the X5 was a bit of a pain, but Air Tools helped tremendously on the exhaust and assorted other nuts or bolts, I did have to invest into a transmission floor jack for about four hundred something dollars, but I'll probably end up selling that once I'm done. My biggest word of advice is you HAVE TO TAKE YOUR TIME, otherwise you'll end up creating more headache for yourself, having a friend help you pass the time helps too (plus beer), I found it particularly boring, so it helped to have a friend help/occupy me. My girlfriend just ended up distracting me.... lol

Take the engine cover off in the engine bay, remove the HVAC ducting in the engine bay, this will help you gain access to the top of the transmission to undo the bolts at top. Disconnect sway bar, place transmission jack on transmission, undo transmission brace, unplug everything, go slow and everything worked out pretty good for me. I hope you have a good memory to remember where all the plugs and assorted nuts of bolts go.

At that point I removed the torque converter and undid the bolts in the bell housing to slowly pull apart the rest of the transmission. It's crucial that you are able to spots signs of failure as not all failures are internally the same, a couple x5world'ers already noted slight variances in their failures compared to mine.

I used the part manual from the ZF Website for the 5HP24, and since all my local parts suppliers wanted a fortune for parts around here I ordered them from Kirt Koeller @ AutoSports Unlimited 1.800.624.3876 x 5735 same parts locally would have been 5 times more expensive than ordering from Kirt, including shipping.

I also found Carloine @ European Transmissions 770.888.1425 very helpful and very reasonable, she does entire kits very reasonably, but Kirt was able to sell me only the parts I needed, so I opted for that, some however may find it the perfect time to use a complete overhaul kit with frictions, pistons, seals and gaskets.

The following are the exact parts I had to replace in my tranmsission found from the ZF Parts Manual.

x6 77.090 - 1055 270 072 (Friction Plate F)
x1 77.140 - 0734 313 096 (F Drum O Ring)
x2 01.010/120 - 0734 319 623 (Shift Shaft Seals)
x1 10.024 - 0501 315 821 (Bell Housing Gasket)
x1 03.030 - 0501 314 899 (Pan Gasket)
x1 77.040 - 0501 212 967 (F Piston)
x1 27.450 - 0501 004 925 (Fliter)
x4 77.120 - 0736 401 071 (M8x24 Counter Torx)
x4 03.050 - 0736 101 318 (M6x22 Pan Torx)

$200 for the above parts plus $20 shipping, $40 for ATF and $1 for all new exhasut nuts and bolts both bought locally. ($261 Total)

Hi,
I have a problem with my X5 4.4 2002 Auto Transmission too. Maybe any of you experts can help? Should I do a transmission reset?

After driving for a while, such as half hour, the transmission does not shift properly anymore. Usual operation at startup is quite good and not any sign or jerkyness or error message.
The first 10 to 15 minutes the transmission works fine, also it does not feel jerky in any way.

Shifting is also still carried out smooth, however the shifting point is much too high, I need to rev the engine to about 3 to 4K before shifing occurs. Usually it would shift much sooner, around 2K to 2.5K I believe? It definately feels wrong.
It means i drive on the highway only in 2nd or 3rd gear at very high revs. Need to push the pedal hard to force gear shift at v. high revs, up to 5K sometimes.

Shifting down would also occur too soon when comming from higher gears, leading to a jerky braking at traffic lights as the revs are too high on the downshift. but this issue is more irregular whereas shifting up becomes a constant problem after running the car for a while.

I also tried to change gears in manual mode.
When I want to shift into i.e. 3rd gear at revs below 4K it would not engage the gear and the display would show a drop back to 2nd after 3rd was shown on the panel for a brief moment. I felt that 2nd gear was still at work. Same applies to shift gear 1to 2, 3 to 4, etc. I can only do the manual mode shift at high revs (min 3.5 to 4K)

Have had the problem checked and the tranmission cleaned, oil cooler replaced, filter replaced etc. Cost a lot of money but problem re-occurerd immediately on my way home after I picked up the car and drove for over 30 mins.

what could be the problem here? Computer did not produce any error messages either. Could it be a rev sensor, or any other component not directly in the transmission? Do I need to get the transmission disassembled?

Please please help, had already too many problems with this car and spent a ton of money on repairs too

well i have run into the same kind of problem....the reverse is going away slightly.

usually when the car is warmed up it goes much smoother but when i first start it it wont go anywhere.

I am not really sure which problem I have...because the car seems to work well while driving. Even in sport mode...i have no problem goin into 1st or 2nd gear...

I will soon loook at it and hopefully figure it out.

Great Thread i might add:thumbup:

1. To accurately form an opinion I would need more info... Which engine/transmission combo, which year, how many miles. Then more in depth info such as fluid condition and level would be crucial in helping you fix your problem.

For evaluation purposed I'll assume you have a 4.4 X5 with the pre 2003 ZF5HP24. But correct me if I'm wrong.

2. from your symptoms alone, it sounds like a valve body issue more than a failed clutch pack... Audi have pressure regulator solenoid issues with similar symptoms. If this is the case your will be burning up your friction material...

However it could be one of the two speed sensors inside the transmission that has failed or is failing.

3. You had the problem check by who? Why would they replace the oil cooler? What was the condition of the filter and the fluid when they changed it? was was on the magnets in the pan? WHAT WAS THEIR DIAGNOSES? If you brought your car in to have it diagnosed, I would expect a diagnoses!!!

4. Just because there is no error message on your dashboard doesn't mean the transmission doesn't have error codes. Stop spending money at places that don't have a clue on how to fix your car! Go to a shop or get a friend that have either a BMW GT1 or Autologic scanner that can read all the BMW modules and note information from there, if it's a failed sensor or a failing sensor it will be noted in the EGS subsystem.

5. The number one reason people spend a lot of money on premium cars is because people take cars to shops or people that have no idea what the underlying problem really is! I've had experiences with high end dealerships just replacing things seemingly at random instead of investigating the culprit. If a shop cannot diagnose your problem and with a reason, LEAVE! It will only cost you a lot of money if you stay.

Good Luck! If you provide us with more information we can perhaps help you out a lot more.

It doesn't go anywhere at all, or it just doesn't go anywhere in Reverse?

I'm assuming it is just your reverse that doesn't go anywhere. If that is the case it does sound like the F Clutch Piston is starting to deteriorate.

It will probably become pretty unpredictable when your Reverse will and will not work, and then finally stop all together. You can most likely to continue driving for quite a while before the problem gets worse.

Eventually you'll start to loose the ability to down shift into first, but first gear will continue to work. You shouldn't have any problems with driving forwards, because you still have 5 other clutch packs that should still be working, however for me, not being able to back up started to become a big PITA!

Try not to rev the piss out of the engine in reverse when it is not moving! The clutch pack is slipping when you do this and it will casue damage to other components as well.

Other than that, good luck!

Thanks for Reply!

1. To accurately form an opinion I would need more info... Which engine/transmission combo, which year, how many miles. Then more in depth info such as fluid condition and level would be crucial in helping you fix your problem.
For evaluation purposed I'll assume you have a 4.4 X5 with the pre 2003 ZF5HP24. But correct me if I'm wrong.

Yes It is a 2002 Model, 4.4i and KM is now 90K. Symptoms are basically shifting too late at too high RPM, even in manual mode shifts can only be carried out at high RPM when the car is warm, so clearly there is a problem somewhere as this does not happen when the car is still cold.

2. from your symptoms alone, it sounds like a valve body issue more than a failed clutch pack... Audi have pressure regulator solenoid issues with similar symptoms. If this is the case your will be burning up your friction material...

what do you mean by burning up the friction material? does this mean I should stop to drive immediately? I still drive short distance with the car at the moment as this does not cause any problems. How severe would it be to get this fixed if true?

However it could be one of the two speed sensors inside the transmission that has failed or is failing.

3. You had the problem check by who? Why would they replace the oil cooler? What was the condition of the filter and the fluid when they changed it? was was on the magnets in the pan? WHAT WAS THEIR DIAGNOSES? If you brought your car in to have it diagnosed, I would expect a diagnoses!!!

it was an independent workshop with quite good reputation in my city, after I have been charged through the roof at official BMW dealship for very simple repairs I went looking for another shop.

Regarding the material, this I do not know as I have not been back to the workshop after having had the problem on my way home. I assume there wasnt any major debris or major residue otherwise they would have told me. Will check first thing tomorrow morning and revert.

4. Just because there is no error message on your dashboard doesn't mean the transmission doesn't have error codes. Stop spending money at places that don't have a clue on how to fix your car! Go to a shop or get a friend that have either a BMW GT1 or Autologic scanner that can read all the BMW modules and note information from there, if it's a failed sensor or a failing sensor it will be noted in the EGS subsystem.


yes there was no trans fail message on dashboard but also I meant the diagnosis.

Yes they plugged a computer in (not sure which one) and there was no error code even though I have had problems with the gear shifting as described. They plugged in a yellow roundish looking device and that was connected to a laptop to read error codes. It reall disturbs me that there is no clear error message as this may mean that lots of things get fixed which dont have to as nobody knows the true problem. I would just like to narrow it down from the symptoms somehow so that they dont replace items which are still ok such as the oil cooler and I have no choice but to believe it would be necessary

5. The number one reason people spend a lot of money on premium cars is because people take cars to shops or people that have no idea what the underlying problem really is! I've had experiences with high end dealerships just replacing things seemingly at random instead of investigating the culprit. If a shop cannot diagnose your problem and with a reason, LEAVE! It will only cost you a lot of money if you stay.

yes I agree, so far have not found any reliable dealership where I live. So glad to have some feedback, incr. my understanding, and then go back there to discuss the next steps

yep only reverse problems... I have gotten used to not revving the engine...because if i rev it it wont go anywhere...once i let off the throttle thats when the car starts backing ...anyways i definitely look closely at these pics and fix it myself...

hi
 

Have re-checked at the workshop:

They do use the GT1 scanner.

The AT fluid did not have any sign of metal or other dirt

Importantly, before these problems, I have had a leak in the cooling system and the engine was driving on very low water for some time. smoke came out of the engine bay and the car was towed. Could be that the engine overheated slightly but the auth. bmw dealer said nothign was damaged.

The cooling system was replaced incl. hoses and water pump, thermostat.

The mechanic said this overheating could have been related to the transmission failure. is it possible and what parts could be affected by this?

Great! If you're a bit mechanically inclined this will be pretty straight forward.

It will probably help if you have someone take a bunch of detailed pictures for you while you're dissembling the transmission, that'll help aid you putting things back together.

Other than that, I'll be willing to help you out along the way. Good luck. When do you think you'll be taking up this project anyway?

Thank you I really appreciate it.

When I get around to it will definitely post some pics...to help myself and hopefully the rest of the X5 community :)

This shop sounds like a bunch of clowns at best. "bmw dealer said nothign was damaged." then "The mechanic said this overheating could have been related to the transmission failure."

If you were near the Vancouver area, I'd tell you to come down and i'll hookup my computer and also help you diagnose it. For a case of beer or a lap dance from a girl at the local clubs here. JK LOL

Seriously, you should probably get a second opnion from an indie that specializes in these types of cars!

Now assuming the transmission did in fact overheat you likely could have damaged the friction plates in all clutch packs, possibly the friction steels in all clutch packs and the pistons... However I'm still not convinced that it is not the valve body or realted components...

Did these problems develop after they serviced the transmission by any chance?

Hey, thanks I would come down and could use a lapdance myself but I live in Malaysia :)

The first diagnosis on my cooling system was from auth. BMW dealer but they are so expensive that I went to another shop and they mentioned just now that the problems with the transmission may have something to do with the issues I have been having with the overheating of the car:

The problem with the transmission first occurerd after I had a leak cooling system fixed, but it was fixed at this auth. BMW shop so I assumed it was all fine, hoses, water pump, thermostat, etc were all replaced and everything checked.

The first time the transmission misssed to shift gears occured I was stuck in traffic jam and driving over 1 hr before the transmission started to act funny and not shift up properly, generally just felt "wrong"...driving on highway didnt make it better, at too low gears,..so I drove it to this shop immediately.

After the shop didnt find any error message and did the service of the GB the problems came up again after driving for some time. Last 2 days, no problems occured, but I noticed the fan constantly operating at any time, whilst engine was normal temp, which was not the case before.
Drove high speed/high temp several times, but with fan ON: No problem occured with the trans. Probably due to the cooling effect of the stuck fan?

Could it be possible that the fan clutch has failed and the fan was *off* after the cooling leak was fixed, which led to temporary overheat of the transmission and temporary failure?
I noticed the fan stuck on *On* is a recent issue, so perhaps it was stuck in *off* previously after the leak fix, leading to transmission overheat and unsmooth gear changes? and now is stuck in *ON* making the problem go away?

I am now getting the fan issue fixed and will see then if the problem re-occurs at "normal" driving before doing anything to the transmission. I now hope that the trans only acted because the cooling system didnt work properly due to lack of fan operation in hot climate and dense traffic. would this be realistic to believe? would this explain lack of error messages in the GT1 diagnosis?

If yes, great news, but I hope this 1 or 2 times overheat did not do any permanent damage to trans. This morning drove to work, all was perfectly fine (with FAN on).

To put the timeline straight:

1.) Alternator broke - break down on highway
2.) Got problem fixed at BMW shop
3.) Another break down the next day, hose was leaking, noticed steam comming out from the enginebay everywhere, drove only 1 mile or so, engine was running without or very little coolant, temp reader was normal..tow to BM shop again
4.)They mentioned with the new alternator they did a flush of the cooling system and this flush has removed debris which may have accumulated in the cooling and lead to expose leaks in the hoses. Hose broke and along with it water pump and thermostat was replaced due to "leaks".

picked up the car from BM and driving was ok.

4.) a few days later, issue with gear shifting came up in heavy taffic. temp reading was normal (could the fan be off here and lead to trans failure due to overheat? I did not pay attention to fan operation at all)
I assumed gearbox problem.

5.) brought the car to BM shop, explained issue with GB, they serviced/cleaned the gearbox, changed fluids and magnets, pan etc. fluid seemed ok. after testdrive, they called me to say can pick up car.

6.) on way back, trans problem occured again after 30 mins driving on highway. gear shift up very late, down shifting also not smooth and too early.

7.) last few days, noticed the fan was stuck in *on* at any speed. even after extensive driving at high speeds/acceleration, problem with gearbox did not re-occur.


now my question:
does the shifting behaviour resemble that of overheated gearbox? I read somewhere that if the gearbox is too hot, it will shift much sooner rather than later.

and would this fan issue not show up as an error message in the GT1?

I'm not sure what your intermittent problem could be from this thread. Not everything shows up as an error on the computer. The best I can assertain from your info is that it's a valvebody issue, either solenoid or orifice.

Best advice I can probably give you now is find a very good indie shop that specializes in these vehicles and get them to properly diagnose it for you.

Good Luck!

thank you for feedback. the problem was the cooling system, it was not cooling effectively and apparently the gear problems above were due to overheating. with a new radiator in place and effective fan blowing, the problems have not re-occured.

as for the transmission, another issue has occured after the trans oil was changed.
Normally when rolling to a stop without throttle the transmission should shift into the highest possible gear to allow the car to roll freely, now it seems like it wants to stay in whatever gear its in and not shift up, leading to a speed loss as soon as I step off the gas.

I had my tranny fluid and filter replaced but actually its only after that I have noticed this problem...

does it make sense to do another "flush" ? could it be because of debris that was moved during the trans oil change and now needs to be flushed/cleared out?

which part of transmission is affected by this?

a lot of people (shops included) after doing a filter and pan service on the transmission forget to replace the O ring that goes on the filter. This will cause pressure problems and erratic shifting behavior.

thank you. can I check this myself?

Not without doing another pan service, which includes draining the fluid from the pan, dropping the pan and removing the filter to check...

Just curious, does the BMW service manual cover overhauling their auto transmissions?

No, it does not. BMW does not repair transmissions. They send them off to be refurb'd and supply you with a new/refurb one in exchange.

There is however a service manual available from ZF. I just went by the seat of my pants... lol

ZF problems
 

swiss - a little late but I did a bunch of digging for my (at the time '02 4.4i) and found a nice procedure done by a guy on a bimmer 540 forum. I have this and ZF parts manual is pdf format if interested IM me.
Cheers

Frank,
Great post. getting into this late. i have the same problem, getting laid off in 2 weeks (jobs been outsourced to india and russia...nice!)...so i have no money but plenty of time:)....did the tranny work for you when completed the rebuild?
thanks

Sorry to hear that, but yes it worked 100%, no issues whatsoever, and was perfect after break in procedure. Even the shifts were quicker and smoother afterwards, it also removed a problem i noticed in 4th gear at redline while it would shift into 5th. I could not be happier especially considering it only cost me $260.

X5 E53 3.0L Diesel with GM gearbox
 

Very intresting in reading this thread, but have to admit, only read it cause my gearbox is also giving me a hard time.

BMW :
X5 E53, 3.0L diesel, 2002, GM A5S390R gearbox, 190.000km

Up to now, no major problems, enjoyed it in style, while the car had to work hard from time to time (big trailer with boat or 3 motorcycles attached to it and fully loaded heading for South of France)

Problem :
Fail-safe gearbox mode.
I'm unable to ride in any gear. Every selected gear (auto or manual) is like putting it in N, meaning free revving engine with no acceleration at all.
Only after a day stand still, the car will advance slowly on idle, as soon you hit the throttle, no acceleration, free revving again.

2 weeks before this complete failure, experienced (from time to time) non standard auto gear shifts, too early / when engaging cruise mode, rev counter would pulse plus/minus 200rpm / harsh gear shifts with mechanical noise, seemingly coming from the back end.
Manual up-down shifts were still doing the job.

Diagnose :
Cause I'm not able to drive, only the local BMW dealer around the corner is the only option for me to get any feedback regarding this issue.
GT1 test only gave one warning, apparently gearbox failure... (really?)
Reading several threads regarding this matter, I asked the BMW dealer for more detailed testing (speed pick-ups, magnetic valves, ...), resulting in a "no can do" from the mechanic, i guess due to lack of no knowledge.....
I know a proper analyse of the problem is very important, as described in this thread former replys, but at this stage this will be mine "no can do" ...

Actions :
Like I said, after reading several post (and especially this one), downloading bulletins, buying shop repair manual , .....I don't think my problem is only related to a faulty TCM ...
I think mechanicly the gearbox is at fault, a overhaul is the only way out.
While I'm trying to limit the damage to my bank account, I'm preparing to get the gearbox out myself.
So far, this would normally cause no major problems, but overhauling it myself, like SwissFrank did, I guess I'm not up to it.
Sending the piece away for overhauling (rebuild item from BMW far too expensive) is of course more expensive than a DIY, but regarding in not able to drive at all, suspecting a far more bigger problem as SwissFrank, in my opinion a safer option.

Any comment, help, thoughts ...... looking forward to it.
Best regards,
Tim, Antwerp, Belgium

PS. SwissFrank, enjoyed reading experiences, your links, downloads .... :thumbup:

One way to double check if you transmission is really in need of a huge overhaul, have someone, (or if you are up to if yourself) drop the pan, inspect for any soot like debris and metal in the pan and filter. And also note the fluid condition, burn+black or brown is not a good sign and is likely points to mechanical failure versus electrical. If electric devices fail a GT1 will point out a non responding unit. Mechanical failure a GT1 had more issue with.

Do this and report back with finding. If you are competent enough to remove the transmission yourself safely, you should have little more issue servicing it yourself.

Frank

.... was forseen to do the gearbox magic today, but was not able to ....
This monday will be D-day.
Like you said, will drain the gearbox sump and remove the pan first to have a first inspection.
Will keep you posted. Xfingers.
Cheers

Frank, can you read my thread and give me your opinion ....
Cheers
http://www.xoutpost.com/bmw-sav-foru...-0-engine.html

Dannyell, were you able to tackle this yourself?
if you did, could you shed some insight? (links to additional posts?)

i too now have the occasional reverse slip
slips only under throttle. if idle, the car will creep in reverse.
now i always park in a inclined spot.

thanks Swissfrank also for your post. i would have never purchased the BMW if i didn't have the forum community

Haven't gotten to it and most likely won't any time soon :(

I have gotten used to the 'inclined sports' heheh so no problems so far...it is getting colder outside and it seems to be getting worse with weather as well but nothing a longer warm-up cant fix.

dang, that was 4.5 years ago. so your F piston has been compromised and you have been driving like that?

sounds like this is not an urgent issue. or am i wrong?
if the F piston seal is bad, are we going damage by not repairing it?