Help Head gasket blown
 

Good day all,

Mine is about to go to hell

Just got a call from the dealership who's having our 2000 X5 for oil in prestone.

Original taught was that the oil separator was the culpit but it looks like the head gasket has blown. Curiously no white smoke ever came out of the car just a lost of cabin heat which resulted from low prestone (no warning light what so ever (and the dashboard light works).

I had top it off for 2-3 weeks. The engine temp gage never went off the middle. I don't understand with all the engineering in this howcome we never got a warning sign.

Anyhow, they are going to spend the required 3 hours to pull the top off and see if there is more damage.

The service man (which we have been dealing with for several years now) is warning me that there might be a possiblity that they could not be able to remove the head bolts without stripping them. In which case, he is saying that we might have to get a new block:banghead: :angryfire

How can that be?

Cant they just fix the damage thread in these blocks, if any?

He said a new block is in the 10G+. The car is just worth about 19kCDN.

Anybody with taughts, comments, past experience with this is appreciated.

I am totally devastated with this car now.
We had put in some big $ last fall to fix some minor rust and other regular maintenance stuff, new set of winter tires, etc.

Were thinking of selling it this spring and order a 335xi for next winter.

Don't know what to think anymore.

Marc

I would get the X away from the dealer.
Let it rest in my garage while I....
Check the junkyards/eBay/craigslist for a complete engine/long block and get an idea on pricing.
Call a few indies about what it would cost to remove replace.

10G is just for engine.
Figure in labor costs, water pump, thermostat(whatever caused the overheating), gasket sets and whatever they find/damage while they removing the engine and you going to have one biggggggg bill.

Having it in your driveway/garage gives you time to think!!

3 hours to pull the head??
Stripping head bolts??
New block??

If he told me this, I would ask him how wide should does he want me to start spread my legs and I hope he is not gonna charge for the lubrication/grease.

10g's !!!!
Take it to another place and dont mention what the first guy said.
Let the new mechanic come to his own conclusions.

Good luck

Is it a 3.0 or a 4.4?

First off, you should be using BMW coolant and not Prestone. I'd also be getting a second opinion as a blown head gasket should have definitely had symptoms such as sludge in the oil...unless its a very minor leak, in which case a new head or block should not be needed...anyway, I would definitely get another opinion, or even two, before either spending $10K or sourcing a junkyard motor.

ask bostonblux5 i think he had similar problem.
here is posted.
http://www.xoutpost.com/x5-e53-forum/...-fine-now.html

Having oil in the coolant is indeed a symptom of a headgasket failure and not an oil separator issue. Them telling you that they might now be able to remove the headbolts and you needing a new block is totally bogus. I've never heard of a headgasket failure causing the head or block to warp enough to create such a situation.

After they remove the head/headgasket, make sure they check that the head and block are not warped at all. If so, either might need to be resurfaced.

Loss of coolant could also be attributable to a bad valley pan gasket.

That wouldn't lead to contamination of oil/coolant afaik.

Unless I am overlooking it, I don't see anywhere in the original poster's message about contaminated oil. Only a loss of coolant. :dunno:

It is a 3.0 6 speed manual.

My wife came home one night complaining of not having heat at a stop light but getting it back when running.
I had check the coolant to find it below the low mark on the plunger. I top it off (about 1L) and since she had an appointment for the brakes, and the temp gage was steady at the middle, I figured it was Ok for now.

Last Saturday (we had the appointment yesterday), she complained again about the loss of heat. I checked again and sure enough, the plunger was low and when I top it off again, I notice the infamous brown liquid coming at the top. I asked about white smoke and sign of overheating and she said no. Outside temp was around 10deg C so maybe, it was enough to keep the engine cool enough but I would be surprised. If the engine was overheating, the temp sensor should have picked it up and should have shown a problem on the computer board at least.

I told her to drive easy and not to put compression on (manual tranny) and keep it low rev.

As for the sludge in the oil, well that has been a long time issue with this car. When it was new, I complained about the high oil consumption (my 5L FORD iron block consumes less oil than that engine) and BMW put it on their surveillance program only to find everything was normal.

Then one day (many years ago) I had to fill the oil as I do regularly between the schedule change to notice the inside of the oil cap was showing a funny thick whiteiss-browniss paste. They say it was normal for that engine.

I figured that the absence of white smoke probably comes from the gasket leak between the water passage and the oil (away from the combustion chamber). I have not seen what the oil looks like (most likely contaminated with coolant) but I still hope the oil pressure was higher than the coolant pressure and the oil leak into the coolant system more than the other way around.

We will see tomorrow. When I call 1 hour ago, they were about to remove the valve train.

Crossing my fingers.

I am not buying the block story either. They will put an helicoil in if the break or strip a thread and I will do it myself if I have too.

Marc

In the third line he said the X went in for "oil in prestone". I assumed oil in coolant is what he meant after Islands52 echoed my initial thought with the same interpretation.

When the headgasket fails, oil in the cooling system is usually moke likely because of the pressure difference between the two systems (like your situation).

The white stuff you see on your oil cap is the result of moisture. Indicates that you're making short-trips during which the engine can't reach operating temperature and burn excess moisture. If you're seeing that, having the oil separator changed before next winter would be something to think about, as that excess moisture freezes creating big problems. A more proactive solution would be to stop making short trips.

Well, good luck. I would still definitely look to another shop for an opinion...a shop warning you a head of time that they may damage the motor "looking for additional problems" is a red flag to me (although from your post looks like they are already doing the work). Also the 3.0 is a common motor, one they should be extremely familiar with by now.

I've only had one car blow a head gasket, an 89' Porsche Turbo S, and that was a $2500 job. I hope you manage to get in repaired as painlessly as possible.

As to the H2O temp gauge, BMW has been buffering those for years, so that they never show true coolant tempurature, and only go ed in the event of catastrophic failure. I recently bought a little gizmo called the Scangauge II from Amazon....its a $150 OBD 2 monitoring device and computer...it also will monitor coolant temp to the degree and save the highest value per day in memory...a worthwhile little device...and it matches the amber illumination color of our cars to boot.

http://www.scangauge.com/

Head gasket can be blown between cylinders/water jackets - no oil contamination.
You should be able to see exactly where head gasket was blown when cyl.head is removed.

Easy way out for me would have been to pull the head, replace the gasket and trade in the next day.

Thank you Islands52,

Definitely hope to get that fix with minimum impact.

Thing is that we really have no choice now. Don't want to drive the car. Can't really sell it the way it is.
No trade in possible as any BMW dealer will know about the car. I do not want to sell it the way it is anyway. Plus it has no "head" anymore right now or almost...

Feel trapped like a rat.
The plan was to sell it before the winter but we first got caught with early snow (this is my wife winter car) and it was too late for the 335xi. We were told we should wait for the spring because of the US$ vs CDN$, the MSRP will drop in spring. So, we ended up keeping it a bit too long, I guess.

I will now get the convertible out of winter storage despite a bit of pot hole and winter sand on the streets. Unfortunately, looks like the Kenne Bell $ will go toward the bimmer gasket instead...

Will see but we like the X very much. It is been some how "reliable" despite some annoying little things over the years. Still drives like a charm.
Not very many 3.0 5 speed manual in the country.

I am planning to go to the dealer tomorrow while I am on business nearby and see for myself.

I just dusted off the "for sale" ad I had from the previous 530i we sold 7 years ago. Will bring it with me when we will get the car off the dealer.

Out of 4 cars we have, all of them been a "first year" production wintage so I guess we don't learn our lessons very well, don't we?;)

As a mechanical eng, I always had no fear of working on the Fords (2 Mustangs and 1 EDGE) but somehow the Bimmer always represented the cream of the cream for me in terms of automotive engineering so I been affraid to work on them.

Will let you know how it went.

And on top we need to have that rear passenger window fixed (see my other Help post from Sunday and got to have brake fixed.

Lucky buyer it will be...

Marc

funny how familiarity makes you comfortable. I've had enough BMWs and had them in various states of disassembly that I feel comfortable working on them over all other makes...in fact none of my BMWs have had a problem serious enough for me to take to a shop in some years. I also do all my own maintenance.

You sometimes need some a few special tools, but really they are pretty straightforward to work on...you should tackle that window on your own...I've read the repair procedure and it does not seem too bad at all.

Did you integrate the scangauge already? Can you write-up the installation? I'd be very interested to see the coolant temp setup.

Its' actually in my MCoupe, and I just have it in cell tel suction mount right now....the hard part is actually hiding the cable from the OBD2 port. The coolant temp works great...to the degree and no setup...just gives it to you in straight degrees F. Since the M has no OBC functions, I have it set to show RPM, Coolant temp F, MPG, and Voltage all on one screen.

I will echo Island52's comment about the BMW temperature gauges - complete crap in my opinion. They do NOT show true temperature, and will only peg to the right in a catastrophic situation (like your secondary "accessory" belt coming off).

However if all you want to see is the true coolant temperature you do NOT need to go to the work of buying and installing an OBD2 gauge. Just use the built-in diagnostic temperature reading in the cluster which is both real-time and accurate. Comes in handy when when you need to see true temperature (like when towing for example).

Instructions to access the onboard temperature functions (E53):
1. Turn your engine on
2. Press and hold the Control Check stalk sticking out of on your instrument cluster (the one to the right of the Trip Reset stalk)
3. OBC should show "Control Check OK".
4. Keep holding the Control Check stalk until "Test 01" appears.
5. Press the Trip Reset stalk until the last 5 digits of your VIN number appear. Sum all of these digits together (this is your "magic number")
6. Now press the Control Check stalk until "Test 19" appears.
7. Press the Trip Reset stalk until the number on the display matches the "magic number" you calculated above
8. With your correct "magic number" now appearing on the display, press the Control Check stalk. Nothing further will happen.
9. Cycle through your Control Check stalk until you cycle back around to "Test 07"
10. Depress the Trip Reset stalk and release it - your realtime coolant temperature will display in the instrument cluster.
(Normal operating temp for a 4.4i is approximately 108 degrees Celsius)
11. For all subsequent viewings now or in the future, you can SKIP steps 5,6,7, and 8 above (they only have to be done once)

Note: If you want realtime RPM instead of Temperature, press the Trip Reset stalk twice instead of once in step 10

Wow, that's really cool.:thumbup:

Fear not the BMW engine teardown. It is just an engine, like any other, yet slightly more overengineered. If you are feeling 'trapped', you might as well give replacing the gasket a go yourself and see if you can get it off without screwing it up. If you can, you just saved your engine. If you can't; "you have to get a new shortblock anyhow. "

In regards to that:

Taking a look at this diagram http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts...13&hg=11&fg=15
it is not entirely clear but it looks like studs hold the head to the block (as one would expect, rather than bolts.) I cannot imagine a scenario where you would have to scrap the block, even if you broke every stud off in the block. You could get some easy outs and pull them out and install new studs, as long as you do not crack the block while you are installing those.

Well, that's what a normal person would say. It may be that the fastners that affix the head to the block are machined into the block, but looking at the diagram for the block: http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts...66&hg=11&fg=10

there is no mention or illustration with such fasteners. That block looks to have threaded holes for head studs - just like every other engine.
You won't want to keep driving it, because then you really could overheat and warp the head, damage the block reciprocating assembly.

On the temp gauge, FWIW - I am not convinced the temp gauge in these cars reads true. It may be on a resistor. Representative or not, there is no actual temperature on it, so I consider it to be a dummy gauge, since red and blue are not a very accurate measure of what the engine coolant temperature is, and definately not a reliable indicator of the cylinder head temp, which is what your concern should be when you are dealing with a potential or existing cylinder head gasket leak. When I put a scan tool on the ODB port, I get swings in temperature of at least 10* that do not effect the read on the cluster gauge. I do not trust it.

I say take it elsewhere, and if needed take it to a thrid place. If you are getting consensus on this 'new block possibility theory,' then reevaluate.

Update on the head gasket job.
 

Thanks all for your concerns and feedback to me about this unpleasant experience of head gasket failure.

Went to the dealer yesterday. Talked to the mechanics.

1) He was able to remove the head no problem after having un-torque the bolts and re-torque in proper sequence and let the head dissipates residual stress for 24 hours. The block is saved and the head will go for a small lapping tomorrow and potentially valve seat lapping as well. They say it is a good preventive step considering the cost and work involved up to now. It would be a shame to skip a step and find out a new leak 3-4 weeks from now. At the point I am, it made sense to me so I concurred.

2) The oil had indeed some coolant in it. They will take the opportunity to replace the water pump as it was showing some sign of damage and near future potential problem. The computer did not reported anything unusual and no code what so ever. The spark plugs were showing some white-light brown color and they will change them as well. They did not show any sign of heat/crack/electrode damage. Looks like the cumbustion chamber was not too exposed to coolant. The valve train is good.

3) My option to go to another shop was limited as there are very few BMW dealers in my area. The one close to home just close last fall.
Since I always been to the dealer for service and maintenance, I have no reference nor idea of other good local shops that can work on this and where I would have had some level of confidence. I am not sure about the $ saved at the end since I never had (took) the opportunity to test them. I am sure they exist around but again, it would have been a logistic mightmare to have the truck towed from 1 shop to another for second/third opinion.

4) I have been given an estimate of the total cost since we know more now about the full scope:

All engine parts, gaskets, liquid, etc related to the engine work to be approx $1700CDN. That includes exhaust header bolts, water pump, spark plugs and else. Labour is estimated at 16 hours @$100/hr so that is about $1600.
Total cost for the mess: $3,300CDN + tx

Then, there is the cost of the "original" scope of work i.e. the brakes: parts + labour (4 rotors, pads, labour) $900+tx

Then, the window regulator and motor (motor bracket was damaged probably when we tried to raise the window): $394CDN+tx+ labour

They noticed one front CV boots was broken, so I said WTF go ahead. I don't want a CV joint rupture due to broken stupid rubber boot.

All that should be completed by next Wednesday based on how quick the heads come back from the shop.

In the mean time my wife drives a 323 automatic.

Pulling the Mustang convertible out of storage this weekend...if the forecast do not call for snow...

Marc

Lapping, I've only heard valve-seat lapping. What are they talking about? Resurfacing the head? Beware valve-seat lapping, they'll probably charge you an extra few hours worth of labor for that as they need to almost completely disassemble the head for that, and then perform the procedure. And it isn't necessary at all. Head doesn't need to be resurfaced unless it's warped. That can be measured by any machine shop very easily.

Hey, that's good news...sounds like this is going to work out better than you originally expected anyway.

Apparently BMW agrees and seems to be doing away with the coolant temp gauge altogether. I know that the 3 series coupe and convertible, all the M cars 3/5/6/Z, X6 and the 6 series, already have oil temp gauges and no coolant temp gauge of any kind. A few others (3 sedan/wagon, 5 sedan/wagon, E70 X5) still have the beyond worthless "mpg" gauge, and no actual temp gauge (oil or coolant). I'm not sure what the hell the 7 series has since it's all digital. The X3 and Z4 seem to be the only ones with actual coolant temp gauges. While the oil temp gauge is excellent (now one can really tell when the engine is warmed up) I still wonder what happens when it overheats?

I agree. Amazingly cool. You should post it in the hidden tips and tricks thread.

I just had a similar problem with my 2004 3.0L X5. Turns out the head cracked near the sixth cylinder spark plug. The car had 47,000 miles on it, but was 3 months over the warranty limit. BMW covered 100% of all expenses. I would ask your mechanic to contact BMW Corp and see if there is some assistance they can provide. I have read about similar head problems on the Roadfly.com forum. I suspect that BWM has a known problem with certain VIN numbers.

I would take the car to a BMW Dealer to have them look at it. Additionally I would request that they contact BMW North America to see if BMWNA can provide some level of assistance.