Originally Posted by x54.4blue

I don't understand this seems to a known defect my is BMW not responsible?

Originally Posted by primetime

...They like $$ more then they like us...Not very nice, especially since we are their customers who are buying their cars..

Originally Posted by NOVAX5

So you think they like us because we bought their cars in the first place? The answer is NO, NO and NO. First they make profit out of our purchase then they give you run around when you have warranty and when the warranty expires, they will empty your wallet in a blink of an eye. Where is the part that they like us because we bought $70K cars?

Originally Posted by NOVAX5

So you think they like us because we bought their cars in the first place? The answer is NO, NO and NO. First they make profit out of our purchase (Thanx for the $) then they give you run around when you have warranty (Thanx -you have to spend $ for service that should be under warranty) and when the warranty expires, they will empty your wallet in a blink of an eye (Thanx again for the $). Where is the part that they like us because we bought $70K cars?

Originally Posted by primetime

What part of "They like $$ more then they like us" did you not understand? They'd rather us pay to have the car fixed (even though the item is a known problem) then have themselves eat the bill...Its that simple..And trust me, I agree with you about the run around stuff..

Originally Posted by lo_jack

Actually I think that the BMW business model, which is mostly a function of the entire way the global auto industry has gone in the past 20 years, does not account for people outside warranty or not in a lease. Of course this the far end of the spectrum, but if you think about it, a less than ideal PCV system is accounted for in the warranty. They expect you to want the newer, cooler model. They expect you to pay for it willingly, even when your old vehicle is serviceable. This is just as much a function of consumer behavior as it is the manufacturer's business. At which point, the PCV system failing sporadically after 45k is doable.

If you expect your customers to buy new, keep for 3 years and trade in...then problems at or beyond 60k miles (where many of these problems happen) are outside of the model, and before 60k miles are very much out of the model, as they are under original warranty. This allows them to engineer for short term performance. I keep coming back to this over and over. If you expect your consumer to keep your car for 100k miles, you engineer to 100k miles, and you make compromises in performance to do it. If you expect less, you design for less. And it costs less to do that. If you anticipate your typical X5 driver will never turn a wrench, and hand it over to your dealership again plus cash for a new one every few years, you do not have to design for durability, and can concentrate on performance and looks.

Thinking about that though, any company in the business of building cars does better to sell you a new car every 3 years than to have you hold onto one of their products for a decade and have minimal service issues. That's logic.

Originally Posted by primetime

Ask the dealer about the service bulletin regarding oil seperators/crankcase...Tell him you want the insulated parts, the new updated parts. That guy is an idiot whoever you talked to in the parts department. Ask him to ask a service tech about it, they will most likely know what it is you're talking about..

Originally Posted by lo_jack

Actually I think that the BMW business model, which is mostly a function of the entire way the global auto industry has gone in the past 20 years, does not account for people outside warranty or not in a lease. Of course this the far end of the spectrum, but if you think about it, a less than ideal PCV system is accounted for in the warranty. They expect you to want the newer, cooler model. They expect you to pay for it willingly, even when your old vehicle is serviceable. This is just as much a function of consumer behavior as it is the manufacturer's business. At which point, the PCV system failing sporadically after 45k is doable.

If you expect your customers to buy new, keep for 3 years and trade in...then problems at or beyond 60k miles (where many of these problems happen) are outside of the model, and before 60k miles are very much out of the model, as they are under original warranty. This allows them to engineer for short term performance. I keep coming back to this over and over. If you expect your consumer to keep your car for 100k miles, you engineer to 100k miles, and you make compromises in performance to do it. If you expect less, you design for less. And it costs less to do that. If you anticipate your typical X5 driver will never turn a wrench, and hand it over to your dealership again plus cash for a new one every few years, you do not have to design for durability, and can concentrate on performance and looks.

Thinking about that though, any company in the business of building cars does better to sell you a new car every 3 years than to have you hold onto one of their products for a decade and have minimal service issues. That's logic.

Originally Posted by lo_jack

Actually I think that the BMW business model, which is mostly a function of the entire way the global auto industry has gone in the past 20 years, does not account for people outside warranty or not in a lease. ......

Thinking about that though, any company in the business of building cars does better to sell you a new car every 3 years than to have you hold onto one of their products for a decade and have minimal service issues. That's logic.

Originally Posted by mgruber

Yes there is. The SIB has been posted. Look at the thread called "Thanks for nothing BMW NA ( Blue smoke/Oil loss/Oil separator )"

Here is a picture.

Originally Posted by JCL

OT, but interesting



I agree. I find nothing unethical about BMW's behaviour. They are building a particular product, for a specific target market. Buyer beware. You are buying a product, but also a philosophy. They never set out to build a reliable car, or a durable car, as their top design priority. It isn't designed to break, reliability is just some distance down the list. Yes, some run for a long time, and that is great. But BMW set out to build a driver's vehicle, one that includes lots of technology. The two different design briefs are somewhat at odds with each other.

BMW likes to use technology. They aren't the only company that sets a team of engineers to work designing a fix for a problem that some don't see as a problem. The oil separator makes the exhaust cleaner, allowing BMW to get points on the various regulations about ULEV, SULEV, etc. No oil mist in the intake means cleaner exhaust. A complicated solution, to be sure, but one that is predictable given their approach to design.

People who expect BMW to provide warranty on an eight year old vehicle, or one that hasn't been operated according to the owner's manuals clear guidance, should be on their own. During the warranty period, BMW has been covering oil separator failures and just adding it to the cost of the new warranty, when some cases of failures are clearly made worse by the driver's practices (short trips, extended warmups, etc).

Think about this: how many people buy a TV or computer and expect to be using it as their primary device in eight years? Almost none. I am continually amazed at the people who change their oil every 3000 miles, because they believe it will reduce piston wear at 200,000 miles. Can you imagine what it is going to be like maintaining the electronics on an E70 in eight years? The mind boggles. Many of those vehicles will be parked, and not because the engines are worn out.
:rolleyes::wow:
/rant off

Originally Posted by primetime

Thats it flatlander. Thats the wrap for the 4.4.. Thats what you need!

Originally Posted by x54.4blue

I think the issue is when the design is bad and they come out with a replacement part to fix the problem.

...<snip>....What other car has issues with the oil separators; this is not normal a maintenance item.

Originally Posted by amacman

nothing complicated in any of thier designs-it`s all elementary. when i say bmw i also mean dealers-warranty-emergency service.the past couple of years have been a nightmare dealing with any of them. i do not expect any car that is run regular to last forever but bmw seem to have a disproportionate amount of problems especialy when one considers the price premium paid for vehicles and parts. dealers frequently exagerate problems to make more money(i have evidence on this practice) or when problems arrise through thier incompetence they bullshit customers in attemt to fraudulently charge customer.
:rolleyes:

Originally Posted by JCL

Continuing off topic, but a good discussion....



Most cars don't have an oil separator. All cars have some form of a crankcase ventilation valve, which is a form of PCV valve IMO. PCV valves were usually replaced or checked every 30,000 to 50,000 miles.

The design isn't necessarily bad. It is too complicated. It isn't durable. But it works very well when it isn't full of gunk.

You accept that brake pads wear out, why not accept that the crankcase ventilation valve needs cleaning out, and the soft hoses replaced?

Originally Posted by JCL

Continuing off topic, but a good discussion....



Most cars don't have an oil separator. All cars have some form of a crankcase ventilation valve, which is a form of PCV valve IMO. PCV valves were usually replaced or checked every 30,000 to 50,000 miles.

The design isn't necessarily bad. It is too complicated. It isn't durable. But it works very well when it isn't full of gunk.

You accept that brake pads wear out, why not accept that the crankcase ventilation valve needs cleaning out, and the soft hoses replaced?

Originally Posted by lo_jack

JCL is right on particularly about one point. You have been trained to think pads, rotors, oil, tires, filters, gear oil, plugs, wires are all wear parts and should be replaced at certain intervals. You could get away with running your factory plugs for 200k miles, but it's not a good idea for performance. So you change them. It is all a matter of perception. You have not been trained to think that other auxillary engine systems should have xx,000 mile maintenance schedules. They haven't done a good job of educating you, but that goes back to them deciding that in the grand scheme, the scheme they choose to operate within, they do not need to educate you: you are under warranty or on a lease.

Originally Posted by lo_jack

This is an excellent point. As I covered mostly in my epic off topic ramble, the separator is a step in the PVC system, which I consider to be above and beyond. Any other company would let the oil that accompanies blowby gas go right into the intake, where it would adversely effect air fuel ratios, help junk up your plugs and foul your 02 sensors. Look at the pic in my previous post. Every intake manifold has oil in it. When an intake manifold has oil in it, you go slower. That is why BMW designed thusly. Again, the distribution piece disperses blowby much more evenly across all chambers than say, a GM cast into the upper intake manifold design, allowing you to not lean out one, two or three cyls more than the others, and therefore be able to push all of them harder and run leaner and hotter for better performance. That is basic ICE stuff, but no one else designs with that in mind.

JCL is right on particularly about one point. You have been trained to think pads, rotors, oil, tires, filters, gear oil, plugs, wires are all wear parts and should be replaced at certain intervals. You could get away with running your factory plugs for 200k miles, but it's not a good idea for performance. So you change them. It is all a matter of perception. You have not been trained to think that other auxillary engine systems should have xx,000 mile maintenance schedules. They haven't done a good job of educating you, but that goes back to them deciding that in the grand scheme, the scheme they choose to operate within, they do not need to educate you: you are under warranty or on a lease.

Primetime you are completely right, but if you had years to come to terms with 'separator maintenance schedule', some nice marketing, dealer info, you would eventually treat it like a brake job.

Originally Posted by flatlander

So, its not a failure mode in which wear is the primary issue. It's a failure mode in which the original design did not take into account the freezing up of the hoses and/or valve.

Originally Posted by primetime

Ask the dealer about the service bulletin regarding oil seperators/crankcase...Tell him you want the insulated parts, the new updated parts. That guy is an idiot whoever you talked to in the parts department. Ask him to ask a service tech about it, they will most likely know what it is you're talking about..

Originally Posted by mtX5

Any idea where to find the service bulletin online so that it can be printed out and shown to the dealer?

Originally Posted by amacman

i found it but can`t put link here , it`s on e53 forum Oil separator Removal nightmare and NEED HELP!!!!! posted by lotusing. bmw service bulletin number is SIB 11 08 03 oct 2007 defect code 11 15 03 14 00

Originally Posted by amacman

as far as i am aware the oil separator is a service item and should be replaced at 2nd or 3rd oil change as required and should it fail within two years,or before 3rd oil change if covering high miles then warranty covers repair. i think design could be improved for durability and possibly relocated to facilitate ease of service. a dealer tried to rob me of £600.00 to replace entire vaccum and separator system.

Originally Posted by mgruber

BTW Twinspoppa, you are missing one page of that SIB (there are 3 in my original post), please fix it or someone will be (even more) confused.

Originally Posted by mgruber

Man did this thread get confusing!

To sum up: SLX5 first posted a question, but has not posted since. I specifically asked him what car/year/engine he had so that I/we could give him the proper advice. Then Flatlander asked about the heated wrap fix, which is specific to the M62 4.4 engine (again, still no idea what SLX5 has). I put up a photo of that fix and the link to the thread that has the SIB posted. Then there was a bunch of ranting (some pretty good) about BMW's business model. Some more talk about engine design (some very good) and then someone else with an M54 3.0 liter engine asked about the fix specific for him. To which Twinspoppa posted the SIB from a previous thread. Keep in mind there are 3 basic X5 engines and all have different fixes for the same problem. Clear!? (anyone still reading this?) It would probably be worthwhile to post the SIB's on the main page. Anyone know who to ask to do it?

BTW Twinspoppa, you are missing one page of that SIB (there are 3 in my original post), please fix it or someone will be (even more) confused.

Yes replaced parts have the 2 year warranty, but you previously said you thought it should be a service item (like an oil filter) which is nothing more then wishful thinking!

Originally Posted by flatlander

Thanks mgruber, primetime, JCL, amacman, x54.4_blue, lo_jack, and Twinspoppa for the interesting thread.

I should rephrase my earlier claim to say that the separator and hoses can indeed wear out over time. It is not a commonly known maintenance part. It also has this unfortunate cold weather failure mode, which can have serious repair consequences. When it fails, you need to stop the engine to avoid running it on too little oil and avoid locking up your engine.

I would suggest that anyone in cold climates do a routine check on the hoses and separator every fall. It's easy to check the hoses. It's not so easy to remove and inspect the separator. The dipstick tube and separator return tubes should also be inspected and cleaned as needed.

The next time I check it out, I'll be sure to post some pictures (M62 engine).

Thanks again and happy driving!

Originally Posted by SLX5

I just went to the stealer and picked up an Oil Separator for $90. i asked the guy if this is the insulated kind so this damn thing wouldn't happen to me again and he didn't know (the temp was 9°F and the windchill was -15°F last night, oil spewed out from the top side, people here suggested it was the valve gasket and separator)

Do you guys know if BMW redesigned this part so crap like this wouldn't happen? if its is the same separator i have in the X5, i am thinking about leaving it? Any thoughts recommendations?

Originally Posted by JCL (Post 572607)

I am continually amazed at the people who change their oil every 3000 miles, because they believe it will reduce piston wear at 200,000 miles. Can you imagine what it is going to be like maintaining the electronics on an E70 in eight years? The mind boggles. Many of those vehicles will be parked, and not because the engines are worn out.

/rant off