Poll on Transmission Flush at High Miles
 

I haven't seen any poll data on this, just in many posts. So lets assume the following

1. X has over 80K miles
2. Original Transmission with no rebuild
3. Never had fluids changed before
4. ZF transmissions only for this poll, we can do another for the 3.0
5. You can select more than one option on the poll as well

Lets see how many have had fluid changes that negatively affected the vehicle ?

Do-not-touch that ZF transmissions!

I think thats BS to be honest. I had so many down hard shift issues and rough driving feeling with my 01 X5 4.4i, with 120k. I had a friends X with the same, after he had his tranny completely rebuilt his car runs like new, so far its been about 4 months and he drives back and forth to work everyday.

Thats why i cannot stand how people keep telling others not to rebuilt there tranny if they are having issues with it. I feel like people just had bad rebuild jobs done to there tranny and it just messed up on them...

I could be wrong, but I think he was referring to fluid flushes, not rebuilding if there is an issue.

I have about 106k on my 02 4.4 and will not do a flush at this point.

I drain my fluid at 180,000 miles and re-filled with Royal Purple. 83,000 miles later still running like a champ. Go figure.

I stand correct.... i was referring about the fluid flushes... because the OP ask about fluid change/flush not rebuilt.

I think this could get interesting. I am curious to see how much of the "tranny will fail if you change fluids" statement is true or urban legend????

I apologies, I didn't mean to seem like I am going against you or something personal at all :)

Sorry! =D

Urban legend? I beg to differ. One of the challenges with reading discussion boards, which are full of great information, is discerning the quality of that information. Technicians, mechanics, and other experts or professionals in the business write in just about the same way as those who have never overhauled a transmission but who have a strong opinion. You have to figure out who to listen to. Why not check and see what various BMW techs (Weasel, killcrap), other professional techs (The Cleaner), and some others on this board with experience in the industry say?

An X5 Outpost thread worth reading on transmission fluid changes

Another X5 Outpost thread on transmission fluid changes

For the record, I don't think it is fair to say that transmissions will fail if you change the fluid. Obviously that is not true, as most don't fail. However, I think it is fair to say that changing the fluid increases the chance of transmission failure. A better poll question would be: "If your transmission failed, have you ever changed the fluid?" Instead, the poll focuses on fluid change practices, and includes all those who haven't had a failed transmission. For that reason, the poll has limited statistical value.

This is a problem (or at lease a perceived and debated problem) with the W163 ML's as well. Mercedes recalled their "sealed for life" transmission procedure and started recommending tranny fluid changes circa 2002.

Flushing the tranny fluid when due can only be beneficial, unless you put some cheap or not recommended oil or perhaps you dont put the require amount. How in the world a tranny flush could destroy it ? Guys please wake up and get yourself a coffe before making assumption that make no sense at all.

The problem is people wait too long before they change the tranny fluid. NO fluid is lifetime, NONE...not even ZF's mythical Esso. 4 personally owned BMW's (countless customers cars that I've done), every 50k like clockwork, never a failed tranny yet...period. It's all nothing but opinions out there about the people results of changing fluid, but we never know how the tranny was treated by each individual user.

What most don't consider is that maybe it was already failing because they abused it - stop light racing everytime, Reverse to Drive w/o coming to a complete stop, hard driving on a cold engine instead of letting the engine AND tranny get to temperate via driving slowly AT THE SAME TIME (aka garage warmups that turn into immediate hard driving while the tranny is still cold). Most people wait until they get the slamming hard shifting before they address the problem. I personally am for preventative maintenance and don't believe in the "If it isn't broke don't fix it" mentality. Regardless of various peoples driving habits, personal maintenance beliefs, etc, one thing remains constant regardless of opinion...NO fluid is lifetime.

If you read the links provided by JCL, he as well as two reputable BMW techs (Weasel and killcrap) give pretty good reasons why changing the fluid can have adverse affects. Especially at higher mileage when no previous services were performed.

Also, I read the poll wrong. There should be one less vote for "all good and no issues so far" and one more for "never changed and I am not going to".

:iagree:
Another good question would be: How many X have more than 100K with the original fluid and never got transmission problems?...

I run a BMW repair place here in Boise, am I mince meat here? :D I said in my previous post, you are correct...key words being "can" and "no previous". So for those w/ no problems now, lower mileage, etc....do it now or suffer later. I can't say it enough...NO fluid is lifetime and I've had to clean some pretty nasty stuff of the magnets in the pan, which NEVER changing the fluid will just continue move around in the system and make worse if the magnets aren't holding whatever else is floating around.

Good question because that ties into what I said about people and their driving habits, cold engine procedures, etc. While my E34 M5 doesn't have the cool engine RPM's light that the E39 M5 has, the owner's manual gives basically the same procedure that only certain RPM's should be reached until the engine is up to a certain temperature. This also helps the transmission just as much. I don't even get close to redline in ANY of my cars till their at least to 1/2 or more of their normal temperature.

No, never said that. :rofl: Just included those two because they are currently techs at BMW dealerships.

Just pointing out to DoubleA that is is not ALWAYS beneficial.

I agree with you and others that for a new BMW I would probably change the fluid regularly and disregard BMW's lifetime guideline, but for older BMW's with original fluid, I would leave it be.

I was just looking at shipping options for this lump of coal...i'll save it for someone else :)

I agree that its not always for everyone, but more for preventative maintenance as opposed to those w/ hard shifting issues looking for a fix, because by then it probably is too late. When I had my supercharged 01 Tacoma V6 (traded for the 7), there were many discussions then about flushing fluid if the trans was shifting hard. There was a general consensus then also that basically it was a lack of maintenance and it was too late, and that changing the fluid would somehow speed up the failure. I'm sure BMW's, or any tranny for that matter, is no different. Change the fluid before it becomes a problem, don't wait till you've got issues then expect an $80 fluid change to make miracles happen...the damage has already been done at that point.

I'd imagine all those little pieces of metal wash all around the transmission, slowly polishing away the checkballs and oil passages just like Extrude honing does to heads and intake manifolds. The passages get gouges, check balls allow too much fluid past, the fluid loses it flow characteristics since it's essentially contaminated = hardshifting. Hell, engines get the same damage due to lack of oil changes...scoring of the cylinder walls, clogged passages, etc. Changing the fluid to remove those metal particles before they do their damage prevents (or at least slows) that damaging process. The magnets holding those particles can only do so much, and they lose their efficieny to continue holding more and more particles as they get more and more built up. I've got pics on my website of a few tranny pans I've dropped, and those magnets were CAKED w/ fine grit and 1 w/ a sizeable chunk that shouldn't have been there :(

Dropped the pan and replaced filter and fluids.

68,000 Miles
Amsoil AFT used and I had the same moss growing on my magnets as the one above. Scratched off that "Lifetime" sticker and added an extra rare earth magnet to the pan just in case. At 110,000 now and no issues. Spirited driving, manual shifting, etc. At 125,000 I will do the same.

When the bean counters start doing engineering work that is when parts fail.

This echoes what my indie says as well. I'm turning 92K and I will have this done in the new year along with gaskets etc.

I completely agree about the bean counters :)

For fluid, people have had success over the years also using Castrol Import Multi-Vehicle (dino oil) and Valvoline MaxLife (Synthetic). Its also been shown that the only difference between a normal Dexron III and Esso is the extra additive Esso uses to extend the servicing intervals. I'd rather save my $3k transmission by spending $80 in fluids and change it every 50k instead of letting the bean counters and engineers use me as a guinnea pig. I've read countless stories of failing trannies due to lack of maintenance and/or following BMW suggestions, but I have yet to read (or personally experience w/ my own cars) about a failed tranny due to "over" maintenace by not following their recommendations. Everyone can do what they want, but I know what's worked for me since my 1st BMW purchase in 98 when I read these same stories back then.

See the links in post #9. A transmission flush is a frequent trigger for transmission failure in a transmission that is otherwise performing well. That is why several of us who have worked in shops and have done overhauls on transmissions won't do transmission flushes on our own vehicles, unless the fluid is burnt. That doesn't mean that we don't believe in preventative maintenance, just that changing the transmission fluid often introduces new problems. You can check the links on this board as well for this phenomenon. The posts usually start with "I can't believe my bad luck, I just changed my transmission fluid and now my transmission has failed even though...." The transmission shops know all about this, it isn't in any way a secret.

The metal particles aren't what will bite you, it is the material from the clutch packs and bands. That material isn't metallic. It is what usually is dislodged when the fluid is changed. Anything large enough to settle in the pan is large enough to be caught by the filter, in general terms. I agree it looks bad in photos of a transmission pan, but it isn't like it is hurting anything.

It's the first time in my life that I heard changing tranny fluid would lead to fail the transmission, it's only my first BMW vehicle so I wont brag to have a ton of experience on it, but it's not a logical explanation that a tranny fail after a flush. The issue is probably more related to a negligence in maintenance or the fact that the tranny was already having symptom or about to fail. I mean I had over 25 cars in my life and never had a tranny fail not a single one, but I have always did maintenance in all my car and drove them accordingly. I dont know maybe in today's car there is something mystical that my mechanic brain cannot figure out ! The is always a rational explanation about these things. I'm going to continue to maintain my car & truck in du time, it's not like anyone have to flush the tranny every months, there is a life span for any lub that goes in the vehicle following the manufacturer specification should be on our priority if we want to keep our car & truck in good working condition. My maxima is getting to it's 10th anniversary and one of the first thing I did when I bought the car brand new is switch the fluid to synthetic. I have been rebuilding the car for the last 3 years ( I made it a show car ) and when I had the tranny disassemble, the shop owner told me my tranny was like brand new, so they only replaced the seal since they where opening it. I dont know maybe BMW vehicle goes against the laws of physic, no matter what people says, I'm a mechanic myself so unless someone throw a rational explanation I will flush my tranny fluid at 120K.

Have a great day gentle man.

AA

What do I know about car > take a look at this:
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y89...a/IMG_1058.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y89...a/IMG_1031.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y89...a/IMG_1033.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y89...a/IMG_1058.jpg

That quote is exactly what we are trying to determine in our own un scientific way. My Indie with 25 years on BMW swears that he has never seen a transmission fail from a fluid change (That wasn't shot to begin with). Poll so far (small sample) indicates that no one has had their high mileage tranny fail with fluid change? More responses would be good. Now watch, I,m going to flush and drop the pan next week and the tranny will fall out on Christmas day!

did mine at 104k with the tune-up, ditto differentials - spark plugs showed oil, so valve gaskets(16) and both valve cover gaskets done

I respect anybody opinions on this matter cause honestly I don't have any good data to backup or debunk anybody opinions.

In any scientific (or an attempt to be scientific) data has to be both accurate and precise (as well as abundant to have any conclusion).
My hypotesis on people having failure after trans flush would be the tranny is already on the way out. so without complete autopsy one can simply blame it on tranny flush, it's always what you did last before failure analysis. trust me I am a S/W engineer and all bugs usually related to the last changes or addition, so that logic clearly has merit.

FYI, I flushed my tranny @42K(you can search around here) now my X5 @60K no problem so far. So draw your own conclusion and do what makes you comfortable.

Mikedd knock2 on wood bro :nanana:

As stated, the extra magnet is in there "just in case". If said metallic material did not pose a threat to plugging the passages, solenoids, and check balls in the valve body then they would not have been included from the manuf.

Never even got to 42k before the 6sp auto transmission failed, so never got to the 1st suggested fluid 'change point'. Awaiting diagnosis of exactly what has failed and then the fight with BMW UK over this issue. At a minimum I expect them to supply any replacement tranny parts free of charge, even if I have to pay for a proportion of the labour. Not happy!

I'm sorry to hear that, I know that's gotta be frustrating as hell that you've got such little mileage and already are having to cross this road. I remember when I 1st joined these forums and was speaking w/ Michelle about the problems w/ her car, her mentioning that the early (prefacelift) X5's and all their problems. I couldn't help but disagree because its a much closer engine to what we share in my 740iL. I've read about problems w/ the M62 and the 5spd auto, but IMHO those are the high mileage cars that maybe haven't ever received the tranny flushes that I would have done every 50k. Sadly I've read of more problems w/ people in your exact situation w/ the 6spd where it failed before it even got to my preferred 50k fluid change mark. BMW and ZF share their transmissions w/ plenty of other makes and models, so the 6spd definately isn't exclusive to us. The one thing I think MIGHT (just guessing, so no flaming people) be exclusive to us is the lifetime tranny fill fluid that is used. I wonder if the problem from the get go is the fluid is already incompatible from the start...there really isn't a better explanation, other than poor build quality, for a trans to fail so prematurely. This might be a stretch, but if I was currently the owner of the 6spd auto, I'd be on Google and Wikipedia finding out what other vehicles are using the same ZF trans, if they're using the same "lifetime" stuff BMW is using and/or just go ahead and change the trans fluid this very minute to something we already know works....Redline(syn), Valvoline MaxLife(syn), Castrol Multi Import(dyno) or even just good ol' Dexron III (see my previous post about this). Unless the owner is still under warranty, I'd be changing my 6spd's fluid out today since your luck couldn't get any worse considering the amount of problems people are already having w/ pre 50k tranny failures as is. Just my .02.

As all auto trans will fail at some point, I think the question should be, "how long in both miles and months was it before the trans failed?" Would it be fair to say if it has been a year and/or 12k miles since the fluid change that changing was not the cause of the failure?

I ignored the advice about not changing and had a very competent indie change all driveline fluids at the 100k when I bought this car. He is a big promoter of changing the fluids even though they say lifetime. It has been about 10k and 10 months and it shifts fine.

Rich

From what I remember, ZF does make similar transmissions for other manufacturers, but each manufacturer uses different electronics, which may also affect the longevity of the trans.

I would have stated it as "contributed to the failure" and not as "the cause of the failure" but yes, I think if it goes a year then the fluid change likely did not contribute directly. It is all opinion, that is just mine.

No flaming. However, if we believed it was the fluid, then the high mileage examples without failures would tend to disprove the theory. Fluid failures don't tend to be random in my experience, they are consequential rather than being the source problem.

A failure related to fluid (whether the fluid caused it, or was damaged by slipping clutches and overheating) involves burnt fluid, and signs of overheating. We don't hear about transmissions being worn out, rather transmissions breaking and not shifting properly. The damage from the ones we have seen is limited to a single clutch pack or actuator, and not pervasive throughout the transmission. A failure caused by fluid would tend to affect all clutch packs. There have been some examples of the ZF transmission having a specific failure of one part (swissfrank has the best post on this) That could be a manufacturing defect, or a design defect, but the failures seem to have additional modes as well other than this specific point.

Driving conditions is an obvious explanation, but the number of examples of pulling large trailers for extended distances tends to negate overloading/overheating as a theory. Extensive manual shifting could be a factor, hard to say.

I come back to the electronics/control package. BMW puts their own controls in these transmissions, to a certain extent. I don't know where the line is drawn between BMW supply and GM/ZF supply, but there is a line. This fits with why the GM and ZF transmissions have similar failure rates. Think about it: what fails randomly on a BMW? Software, sensors, etc, are the most likely cause. When one of those items fails, the affected system stops working, whether it is a clutch pack controlled by a pressure sensor, or a speed sensor, or what have you. Just my theory.

I have to agree with anyone who suggests changing the fluid. Fluid isn't made to last forever. Second and this is the biggest issue is the fluid gets dirty. That's the killer. I went to a BMW dealership today to get parts and starting talking with a tech there. I asked about the "Lifetime" statement for the tranny fluid and he commented that to BMW that was 100,000 miles. He was emphatic that you need to get it changed. Second on most automatic transmissions you have a dipstick and can fill thru that. This allows you to get the correct amount of fluid into the tranny (including whats in the torque converter. My 3.0I doesn't have dipstick. He stated that if you just fill from the torque head bolt on the tranny pan, you won't get all the fluid in that you drained out. Not sure as I have never done this but for those folks who have or those who are BMW technicians is this true? he commented they had a special hose that allows them to get into the trainy to get the correct quantity in there.

Any thoughts?

tranny change
 

I do lots of DYI stuff, but this one I paid a real pro to do. First, a lift is very helpful, then no contamination and my tech's shop I would eat off his floor and I cannot say that about my work area, then there are many types of fluids and you need to make absolutely sure you have the correct stuff and there are tags on the trans to help with this, and then you have to take the temp of the fluid as you fill it, and make sure you change the filter. The $300 I paid was so well worth it to me.
I just got back from a trip out in the huge snow and I had a real gear head interagate me about the car. He wants one too. I had to use the controled decent function again, and it works so well.
Rich
:yikes:

You pump it in from underneath, you don't just fill it to the level plug on the side of the transmission. And, as dipstick notes, you need to monitor the transmission fluid temperature as the level has to be precise, at a certain given fluid temperature. There is a documented procedure in the manual, and probably reproduced on this site if you do a search.

:popcorn: I wish there was a "thanks" button to acknowledge helpful posts, because this is certainly one worthy of it. The transmission fluid change threads are my favorite, with nuanced arguments, well thought out reasoning, and a requirement for application of critical thinking skills. Hadn't ever thought about some of the ideas JCL is writing about and it is also telling that Weasel is skipping transmission fluid changes. Thanks for the efforts. Some of us are listening and deciding.

While I'm assuming the ZF trans is different between the X5 and the 3/5/7 cars, www.e38.org has a couple of nice writeups w/ warming techniques that I used when doing drain & fills on a handful of the 7's that I've done for customers.

I agree, and while maybe I just haven't paid attention enough to the mileages listings on the 6spd, but I've got this impression in the back of my head that the 6spd trannies have had more problems than the 5spd version. Along w/ the survey that started this post, there wasn't any specific mention of which auto tranny they have or haven't changed the fluid on, just adding another spin to this whole thread. Good reading none the less. :)

I had my tranny fluid changed along with filter and all other driveline fluids. It's been 90 days and 8K miles(93K total) and it drives fine, super smooth and shifts great. No issues so far. My Indy is a firm believer in changing all fluids as well. Interestingly there is a new tech in the shop from Russia/Germany who is very experienced with BMW's and he says that the "lifetime" fluid thing is a North American invention to sell leases.

I absolutely agree...saved BMW from one more item they have to include on paying for during the lease, plus an added sales pitch.

Non ZF Tranny in my '06 3.0. Drained, dropped & cleaned pan, replaced filter with OE BMW one, filled, drove for a week, drained, refilled. 20K miles later, no issues. Used Valvoline DEX VI.

You're not the first I've heard of using a good ol' Dexron instead of something that is Esso compatible like Valvoline MaxLife. To be honest, Esso or MaxLife extended service interval fluids aren't really needed as long as the fluid is changed regularily instead of doing "lifetime" intervals (aka never :() like BMW recommends.

Changed mine at 120,000 miles
 

I have a 2003 X5 3.0 with GM 5 speed automatic. I read thru all the threads and decided I would change mine. Its a risk but its a risk either way.

I used Valvoline Dex/Merc max life. This was the only fluid I could find that met the BMW spec for this tranny (ETL 8072B) and GM Dexron 2,3,and 4. Its 20 dollars a gollon at Autozone.

I have owned the X since 106000 miles and before that it was CPO. I'm as certain as one can be that it wasn't changed before. No warranty claims. The fluid was black and there were metal shavings on the magnet in the pan. What I didn't see was varnishing from the limited view you have when you pull the filter / pan. It was very clean. No slug.

I think you will see varnishing and slug when you have a car you tow with. just from the fact that the tranny gets hotter, even with a cooler.

Any way I have 1000 miles on it, so far so good. hopefully I am as lucky as folks like Wally X5 who have done this and have over 200k on thier X's.

I understand both sides of the discussion, but personally can't get over the fact that fluid gets dirty over time.

I plan to change once a year with filter as I drive 30k a year. We'll see how lucky i am.

Good to hear ernaldamerican. I'm going on 21000 miles on my original oil and filter change using Valvoline DEX VI. I'm gearing up for a long road trip up to Toronto from Northeastern PA so I plan on draining whatever is in the pan and topping up with some fresh fluid.