Transmission Reliability
 

It appears that the '00-'03 5 spd auto transmissions are rather prone to premature problems or failure. Are the '04-06 6spd versions any better? TIA.

In short, not really. The transmissions may be a weak point in the X drive train but not to an extreme extent.

I think the tranny problems with the X are like the tranny problems with the earlier Dodge Rams. You heard about a lot of failures, and how crappy they are, but with regular service, they seem to live an average to long life. Change the fluid every 50k miles, and drive it until it dies.

:iagree: as that the only way to keep them reliable. Ignore BMW's recommendations, which they no longer recommend on their newer cars. It seems to me the 6spd's have more problems than the 5's.

:iagree:My 6 speed ZF on my o4 X5 got rebuilt at 100,000kmhs, there seems to be debate on changing trans fluid/ but after my experience i definitely would change, but following proper procedure

I see most are talking about the hydro transmissions. What's the concensus on the manual transmissions?:driver:

I've used Redline in my M5 for years w/o an issue. I change it just as frequently as the auto's I have. For the cost, $20-$30 worth of fluid every 3 or 4 years is far cheaper than $5000 every 7 or 8 years when the tranny fails. Ever since I started buying BMW's in 99, I've never experienced a failed, notchy or hard shifting tranny, and I by no means have any plans to either.

I read about transmissions going bad on the x's before I bought mine... so tell me people lets get honest here, which transmissions go bad?
1. The 5 speed auto?
2. The 6 speed auto?
3. The 5 speed manual?

Thanks guys for all the info. Sounds like service intervals are the key. Any of you unhappy with the 6 speed auto?

For longevity driven in normal condition nothing beats manual. So if you drive alot and tend to keep your car for a long time get manual.
My Audi A4 manual trans hit 125,000 miles and driven hard after I got my new turbo on it and it still ticking (no slippage symptoms yet). BTW, all v8 X5 come with auto.

Well, you hear lots of rumors about the transmissions going bad. But, after over a year on this forum, I've only seen about 3 transmission died posts, and in one of those cases it was not the transmission.

Do they die? Sure. Frequently? No. Especially not if you change the fluid every 50k. And I don't think I've heard of one failing prior to 100k miles.

Manual will always be the most reliable, but they're also the rarest, and only come with an anemic (in my opinion, in the x) six-cylinder. Get a V8, change the fluid, drive it till it dies...

And this is where I am confused. I have seen just as many reliable experts claim you should NEVER change the transmission fluid, as say you should at 50k and 100k, etc ... so, which is it, and why? IMO, I don't think anybody is an expert on these transmissions; it really is 6 of one and 1/2 dozen of the other when it comes to "how to guarantee long transmission life" simply because the unreliability problems associated with the transmission don't seem to have been solved to a point of a consensus answer. Frankly, if Toyota can step up to the plate and recall so many 5 year old and newer vehicles due to throttle issues, BMW should be able to do the same for the X5 transmission issues ESPECIALLY since they were originally tagged as NOT needing fluid changes for the LIFETIME of the vehicle (and if the "lifetime" for a transmission on a $60k luxury vehicle is not more than 150k miles, that's pathetic).

There have been so many transmission fights pro and con
about changing the fluid that no one will ever agree.
Just do a search and see what I mean.........:confused:

I disagree with your assumption. While the 3.0 is not the biggest powerhouse in the Bmw fray, it is no stone. Whoopie a 4.4 auto won by a car length. Furthermore I would like to see a run with a chipped 3.0 or a SC'd one.:nanana:

YouTube - BMW X5 4.4 (automatic transmission) vs BMW X5 3.0 (manual transmission)

That looks like at least 3 cars lengths to me. Besides doing some 0-60 or whatever run like that, it's also the immediate power when floored. I've been in enemic vehicle that we're completely terrible at trying to pass with. There are times when the 4.4 hasn't felt like it was enough at times, so I can't imagine what the 3.0 would feel like. Gotta pay to play I guess. Chipped still wouldn't make a 3.0 as fast as a 4.4, and the S/C is the same price for a 3.0 or 4.4, so either can be modified to get a substantial gain. Don't get me wrong though, when I first was looking at X5's (pre 740iL) I was looking at a 3.0/5 spd to treat just like a 330ci...headers, large turbo, etc. Only problem was that there was NO aftermarket support for tuning. Nowadays, it's more available, but by no means is it cheap.

I"m sorry you don't have the V8. One, I can't drive a manual, due to knee issues. 5 speed isn't an issue, so if you want to compare apples to apples, you have to do an automatic 3.0...

And then...lets put 6000# behind it, and head for the mountains. I think you'll find the 3.0 becomes very labored with that, manual or automatic. As I tow between 3000-7000 miles a year with that load... That's a pretty crucial measurement for me.

Back to the original posters question about changing fluid, this is all I can say. I've been through mechanics school...

No fluid lasts forever. They *all* break down. We know that transmissions are one of the most expensive items in a car, and yet, we dont' want to perform basic fluid changes because manufacturers have trained the public that "maintenance" is bad, and should be avoided - a perfect car would run perfectly forever, with zero maintenance. After coming back down to earth from the space dream, let's realize that all fluids - cooling, oil, transmission, differential, transfer case, power steering fluid, *all* degrade. There are recommended intervals for most of these. In my opinion (and this is *just* my opinion) regular fluid changes of all fluids are crucial to longevity. This does not mean I advocate 3000 mile oil changes, but I do recommend using some common sense.

I use this rule when it comes to automatic transmissions:
1) fluid breaks down, more in heavy use situations. Changing every 30,000 - 50,000 miles with a good quality compatible synthetic is a must do, regardless of what any manufacturer says.

2) fluid "flushes" are BAD juju. This is when they use a machine to pump your old fluid out, and new fluid in. The power for doing this is provided by the pump on the machine. I've heard of many instances where this procedure has damaged transmissions, probably due to excessive pump pressure.

3) If you disconnect the transmission line at the cooler, and start the engine, using the transmission pump to pump out fluid, this is an acceptable means of "pumping" the fluid out. This will allow a more complete fluid change, but it takes a lot longer, because you need to stop every 1/2 gallon (two quarts) and refill the transmission pan. On the BMW X5, at least on my V8, this is not easy to do. I prefer to just drop the entire pan, remove the filter, check for any excessive metal or sediment (and at 50k, I found none), replace the fluid, and call it good.

I will change again at 100k miles, and probably 150 and 200. For the record, for those that have changed fluid every 30-50k religiously, I've not heard of a transmission dying. If there's is one that has failed, I'd be pretty surprised, and willing to blame it on an improperly made part or assembly.

By and large though, transmissions are pretty simple devices. Sure, they have more gears, and electronic controls, but the basics have not changed since the first automatics came out more than 50 years ago. And regular fluid changes were required for decades before this whole "non-maintenance" scheme started appearing in the 90's.

For the record, I also change my engine oil every 10k miles, and the differential fluid every 50k, and the transfer case fluid every 50k as well. All of these are synthetic fluids, if they were conventional, I'd change more frequently, but I don't like conventional fluids, and dont' run them in any of my vehicles.

Also worth noting, changing your brake fluid every 2-3 years is part of required maintenance, and so is changing your antifreeze about the same time.

Do all this, along with plugs, filters, keeping it clean, attending to any leaks, and you'll be shocked how long a well maintained vehicle will run.

These are just generalizations, but...

I'd say the 5spd can be more reliable if serviced. Debates in regards to the pros and cons can be found all day long, but plain ol' common sense tell me that NO fluid is ever lifetime.

The 6spd's are newer and apparently have been breaking down just as frequently as the 5spd's, but the difference is...most of those 5spd's are over 100k, while the 6spd's are newer and should still be in a lower mileage range.

The manual isn't perfect either, I've read threads over the years of people having synchro issues, popping out of gear, etc. For some reason my M5 uses ATF in it's 5spd manual, and just like the fluid servicing debate, you will find just as many people who've have good or bad luck w/ fluid changes in those transmission as well.

I still believe that going super long intervals on stock fluids just isn't a good idea, but that's just me. 50k fluid changes and nothing has failed yet, so I'm gonna keep doing what I've always done. Just changed the fluid in my 90 Chevy winter beater a few months back, all 270k on the odo and still shifts perfectly fine, w/ and w/o the trailer.

I'm sure someone can find information contrary to this, but pay attention to the paragraph in regards to the Automatic Transmission Rebuilders Association opinions, who will know more than any of us armchair mechanics will ever know. How often should the automatic transmission fluid... — Yahoo! Autos

This is a great explanation for why we should change the transmission fluid every 50k miles. Thank you. Additionally, I think it provides further evidence that could (and should) be submitted in a formal complaint against BMW as they have insisted before the newest X5's were produced, that the transmission fluids were "lifetime" fluids. As such, they should bear a great portion of the financial burden incurred for any 2000-2008 BMW X5 transmission that has failed before, say, 150k miles.

Don't forget about the six-speed manual!

My suggestion is the same as it was before
"There have been so many transmission fights pro and con
about changing the fluid that no one will ever agree.
Just do a search and see what I mean.........

This discussion has been going on since day one and the failure rate
of transmissions based on the "lifetime" fluids" issue
or change it conclusion has never met a formal complaint
criteria against BMW period.

And what are those "criteria?"

Read the threads you will find that there are no criteria
at this point that demonstrates the need for a formal
complaint regarding the issues with BMW X5 transmissions.
Sorry but those are the facts.

http://www.xoutpost.com/bmw-sav-foru...tion-suit.html

Well, you began that thread thinking there were criteria. Of course, recall is not the same as a mere complaint. I'd have to seriously question the "position" of anyone who would be so overconfident in stating there were no criteria for a complaint in this issue. In fact, considering the numerous transmission failures due in part to the owner's leaving the transmission alone as a direct result of BMW's insistence/position (that they since have changed their minds on with newer models) that the X5 transmission fluid is a lifetime fluid that should not be changed ... that alone is enough criteria to at least file a complaint. It seems like it'd be up to the courts to decide if the complaint had merit, not people on a message board who may or may not have the best interest in mind of the poor soul who is out $6k in part because BMW wrongly believed/stated that the transmission fluid on the X5 was a lifetime fluid needing no changing ... ask Toyota, Ford (in the 70's), etc if a cost/benefit analysis ethos doesn't eventually come back to bite you when enough people say, "enough is enough!"

If you read my thread you would have found that the whole
thing was tongue and cheek based on the countless
"not going anywhere" transmission threads which have
been posted year after year.

I understand your argument.I was just trying to keep
you from pissing in the rain regarding the so called numerous
transmission failures due in part to the owner's leaving
the transmission alone poppycock.

As I said read the threads. You will find there is no
consistent evidence to support your argument one way
or the another. But be my guess. Have at it.

Regards

Okay, I get your point. However, let's take a clear, fair look at the criteria for a formal complaint in this case: ONE person has to have experienced a transmission failure they feel is connected to BMW's alleged negligence in calling the fluid in their transmissions "lifetime fluids," and be willing to write it down, sign it, and send it to BMW NA. Of course, there in fact is not only one, but seemingly hundreds if not thousands of people who would fit this criteria ... the amount and "consistency of evidence" are to be collected outside of just this website, and proved or disproved in a courtroom (or in mediation), not in the analysis of threads on one discussion board.

While my transmission has not failed, I am interested to hear what my first cousin (who works as a corporate attorney who often represents Toyota - imagine that?!) says about this issue. My .02: criteria for a formal complaint have been met, and a complaint should be filed if for no other reason than to "encourage" BMW (ie. rattle their cage a bit) to be more accountable for giving bad rec's regarding their substandard products sold at a HUGE mark-up, but not supported based on shoddy (pathetic) customer support for a part(s) that better last longer than 150k miles if they are going to be so definite about it not needing proper servicing because it is a "lifetime" part.

Just picked up my x5 from the tranny rebuild today - i cant believe it failed after only 150k klm.

My wife uses as daily driver 4.4 2001 black with cream leather trim - beautifull car, ive put 20inch 4.6 is rims on it looks great

the misses went to get some groceries and the car was on a slight incline wouldnt engage in reverse towed it back drove to mechanics and short story is torque converter failed so basically had the whole trans rebuilt no gears but all new clutches new torquey and seals etc - fortunatley the internal gears were in good nick otherwise would have required a full rebuild would hve been another $3k !

My trans specialist said hes done about 6 of them in these things now i dont know but this 150 k and rebuild the trans is kinda bad i love the car but when you are buying a quality european car you should not have these issues and if you do the company should definatley offer some sort of compensation.

Unfortunatley doesnt reflect well on company really.

aside from this I love the car.:D

Had my E53 back for about three weeks now following a transmission rebuild. It's fitted with the same 6spd auto that the V8 4.8 has. The failure occurred at 41,890 miles and was nothing to do with the fluid - changing it would have made no difference.

The failure was within the torque converter and not the actual transmission but the broken plastic (yes plastic!) parts from the TC were ingested by the tranny oil pump destroying both it and the downstream clutches when the pressure failed. There were no warnings at all. There is no doubt that this was a premature failure and just 'one of those things' that can happen. Not that BMW GB showed any inclination to 'goodwill' the repair though!

However, this failure is not unusual and occurs on other vehicles that use the same box (Jaguar & Range Rover I'm told), though it is rare at low mileage like mine. Auto transmissions generally have a higher failure rate because they are by their nature a more complex beast. They are also much more expensive to fix - albeit with a rebuild costing approx 1/3 of a remfctrd and BMW fitted unit. Whether the transmissions fitted to the X5 are any better or worse than those used by other manufacturers depends upon the actual number of failures, and failure modes. Percentage wise it's probably around average. Perhaps an FOI request to BMW NA may reveal the true nature of the number of failures - but that might only identify those BMW know about. It won't pick up those fixed by other specialists - as mine was.

Given the option again, I would have had the 6spd manual but they are very difficult to sell on (and go for a lower price) as no one wants a vehicle like an X5 with a manual gearbox.

Wonder if diesel with high torque cause the trans failure on yours. But again we've heard so many trans failure on petrol engine as well.

"lifetime" is made up word by lawyer since it's vague in terms of quantitative (no mileage can be put on it) and different people have different expectation in longevity. The old timer of Benz owner will balk for anything to fail under 200K miles, but new owner of benz lease theirs for 3 years.

To me it seems like the 4.4 won by about 8-10 car lengths. The 3.0 got smoked.

8-10 might be a stretch, but I definately don't see how Supernatural only came up w/ 1 car length. Is this a 3.0 jealousy thing ;)


FYI - Willgabriel and Quicksilver...you don't need to quote each other when your reply is directly after one another, we already know since your answers are back to back. Quote is for when you're replying to the guy like 5 posts up, on another page, the OP, etc...you're killing me on my phone trying to read this stuff :D

:iagree: That is quite a low mileage and out of the norm. I agree w/ your lawyer statement as well.

I've suggested this before, but never really researched it. The TC from a 740i sport has a higher stall speed than a normal 740iL. While I've heard of shifting problems in the E38 forums (my assumption is mostly due to lack of fluid changes), it's not as bad or complete failures like I read about here. I've always wondered if we could swap in the 740i Sport TC, hoping that maybe it's a little more stout since the stall speed is different, plus it'd might be a nice little upgrade.

Lets get serious guys, the transmissions are bad, lets be real here, I have my indi mechanic that has been servicing all of my BMW's for years and he told me "before" I bought my X that the transmissions fail... to make sure I really want to buy the "X"..

Also, another customer of mine who owns a car lot, told me the same thing, these are 2 people who dont know each other.

Now think about it, these people that their transmissions are going bad are not even on this board! so we may have a big problem here, just that not enough people are on boards like these to report them all....

my .02

EXACTLY. Again, anyone who insists there is not an issue that calls for BMW to provide a better remedy may need to reveal what his/her financial and/or emotional ties to BMW are. BMW has an issue on its hands with these X5 transmissions, and I find it appalling that they are placing a cost/benefit ethos above quality customer care when it is BMW that insisted the auto transmissions in the 2000-2008 were "maintenance-free" ... Transmissions on X5's seem to have failed before 150k miles due in part to BMW's insistence that the transmission fluid is a "lifetime" fluid. "Lifetime" may be legal jargon in some sense, BUT a REASONABLE PERSON would say the lifetime of a transmission in a $60k SAV should absolutely be greater than 150k miles.

Many times the transmission is repaired or replaced when the fix can be very simple. For the past few months my 4.4L X5 has been having a transmission problem. While driving it would suddenly down shift 1 to 2 gears and rev the engine to the point of backing off the accelerator. After searching the boards and using some logic, it did not appear to be a mechanical problem. The problem was electrical because it did not slip or act like a mechanical failure. I found a couple of articles where drivers had replaced the internal transmission wiring harness due to a short to the temperature sensor. The harness cost $250 and is way over priced. My thoughts were to find the short and repair the harness. After removing the pan, I found two temperature sensors. Both had a double push on spade connection. I took the sensor and stuck it into the spade connection, one side at a time. I found one of the connections was not tight at all, so I sprung the spade connection back tight and everything has been fine for several hundred miles, more than enough for the problem to occur again. Total cost was $25 for the fluid and about 2 hours work. Too many people have a transmission problem and simply drive it to the shop at the mercy of the mechanic. If the torque converter fails, why replace the transmission? If the clutches fail, why replace the TC? You guys act like the transmission is a magical box that only the magicians can fix.... I diagnose the problem make the repair and fix what's wrong. Wish all mechanics did that, but then it's not financial advantagious for them.

What he said. The Germans are racing to the bottom on this. Wasn't that long ago I got 200k out of a MB tranny

I believe cmartin as well, I noticed on my BMWs what I thought was something "HHUUGGGEEE" was something quite simple to fix!

Example 1, my cylinder 5 was misfiring on my e36, my car was shaking, it wouldnt go over 30 miles an hour, I was scared, I was like "oh crap" my motor is going out, then I read on the boards that it was a coil pack for cylinder 5, changed it, voila, my car ran like new! it was $115 total fix out the door.

The same thing for my door handle carrier on my X.

But let me be honest, im not that mechanically inclined to do what you said up there on the transmission, ill be up the creek if something like that happens to my transmission, I would be at the mercy of the mechanics around here... Any part of the transmission shouldnt fail

I have my 1986 Astro Cargo Van, with ** 24 years old **, 285,000 miles with the same transmission...

Im not BMW bashing I love my bimmers, but sadly its true....

my car would reverse but was slipping and would require a lot of gas actually move.

i was hoping it was just and adjustment - i have since heard theres a part that wears and the car wont engage into reverse properly.

to see what the problem is they had to remove the trans and open it up to diagnose the problem.

when they did open it they noticed they needed to replace that reverse thingo and the internals of the box were in good condition that led them to check the torque converter and upon inspection they noticed that it had failed and that was what caused the oil contimination.

my torque converter failed.

they suggested replacing the torque converter with a factory bm unit as they cant get the recond ones to work properly (shuttering and general problems)

since the trans was taken apart i would assume theres certain gaskets etc that need replacing and because there was metal in the box i reckon new kit was put through it - i also took out a 3 year extended warranty for $275.

I used the same company bm uses because when i had a trans failure in a mazda 626 we had i used a little guy and the trans failed again he didnt cover it so for peice of mind i wanted to use a larger company this time.

once the converter or clutches fail, you really need to rebuilt the entire thing. Once those metal shavings and burnt fluid are in there everything else gets messed up. But it is also true that the electronics are much more likely to fail than the mechanicals on these trannys. And many times a dealer doesn't want to diagnose the actual problem - anything related to transmission = replace the entire thing to them.

BTW - my neighbor had the trans go out at 140K miles on their 740iL. Wife drives it. From what I see she isn't too kind to the car. Still. They were not thrilled about it on such a premium car. And again - this problem with transmissions is not limited to BMW. The older 4 speeds in BMW's and MBZ's were much more reliable going past 200K easily. The newer 5,6,7 speeds seem to be more fragile, likely because of additional complexity. I've heard about just as many failed MBZ transmissions in the 2002+ models as with BMW's. Same thing with Jag and Audi for that matter.

Well, and the other issue I'll state here is...you've got to pay to play. Should BMW do something about transmissions that fail before 50k? Sure, I think so. Should they do something about transmissions that fail at 100k? Well, I'm not sure. Over 125k? Definitely not. If you want reliability, go by a damn Hyundai (used to be toyota...but...no more... or a Honda).

If you want a premium new German mobile, you'd better be prepared to maintain it. And though the old MB's and BMW's also lasted a long time, they have some pricey bits on them too. Maintaining and fixing one of these cars is going to be more expensive than your average Asian Appliance.

It really is your choice. So a tranny fails every 100k miles, so what? $6k to fix (presumably), that's one years worth of $500/month car payments. No way can I pay off a new X5 in one year at $500/month. Heck, I can't lease a decent one at $500/month, and then I'm *significantly* mileage limited.

Will I be happy when I have to do the tranny on the X? Probably not. Will I accept it as normal, and have money in the bank to pay for that? Yes. Is it cheaper than a new car? Yes. In order to get to where buying something newer to me makes sense, I will have to spend $8k/yr on the X for two years running. Then, and only then, can I justify the monthly payment, the increased insurance, the increased tax bill, and the hassle of finding another new vehicle that I want. The X might have some pricey things break. No doubt. But, once fixed, they're generally good for a long time after that. So even if you hit a bad streak, you've still got a long way to go before you hit 8k/year.

Just my thoughts...and I drove my 37k miles last year...

a friend has a 500 ml merc - his mums car the tranny went at 40k klm ! out of warranty like a 03 model they emailed mercedes benz germany they covered it at no charge found mechanical failure of the trans.

my question is has anyone with a bimmer had that ?

another friend had a 03 m3 they apperently had a chasis problem were it comes apart slightly at the back end (dunno something like that)- $10k repair bmw wanted nothing to do with it- the guy pushed hard and I think they covered half.

my brother had a suburau rs turbo liberty 120k 2 owners making tapet noise from 90k - factory recall - full top end rebuild - thats the sign of a great company (im sure that people have had probs too but thats such a good story wanted to share)

I still love the x5 and if my budget permited would by a new one or rrs but its kinda frustrating that such a large company wouldnt offer some kinda help for this - seems like theres no goodwill when it comes to these probs and they definatley shouldnt happen in cars of this quality - and it doesnt seem like to much of an isolated incedent.

I'm sorry, I think you are drinking the BMW Kool-Aide and rationalizing their incompetence. Expected regular maintenance is one thing, but replacing a transmission that should last 150k miles is another (especially after BMW has basically called it a "maintenance-free" transmission in not recommending fluid changes). BMW is not so premium (special) that they can get by with incompetence in their choices regarding transmissions. A $75k Lexus LX is premium too (you have to "pay to play' to own one as well), yet I promise you Lexus expects their major components to last at least 150k miles ...

First trans in my X5 died on the previous owner in under 50k miles. Personally, I'm doing fluid changes at either every 30 or 50k.

Maybe they are building the cars for leasing not purchasing. If you're at 100K miles, chances are that you're the 2nd or 3rd owner of the SAV and BMW couldnt care less about your repair bills.

I have learned that longevity and reliability are not the traits that BMWs are known for. I love the brand now (used to hate it before getting our 07 328i), but I do not recommend it to family/friends who are looking for a reliable car. In fact, I steer those friends away from this brand unless buying new.

Funny thing is, in motorcycling world, a BMW motorcycle with 60-70k miles on it is 'just broken in', and 100k+ miles is an expected 'no-worries' lifetime of their hard working 1100-1300 cc engines.

IMO, if this were the case, they'd be $15-30k vehicles when new, and not $50-70k+ vehicles when new. Whereas part of the initial cost is name, a great majority of it is supposed to be build-quality, and reliability of major components. I think all BMW owners/lovers are willing to give BMW a pass on some of the regular maintenance costs/issues (and that is somewhat generous of us no matter if we were the original buyer or not), but there is simply no excusing the failure of major components before at least 150k miles on a luxury, well-built automobile.

That's so 1980s. (sarcasm off) and Luxury doesn't mean well-built (see early Ferraris or Audis) In fact I would argue that each generation of BMW from say the 1980s onward, build-quality has probably gone down (defined as longevity of engines, transmissions, major electricals, stuff that needs to work for the car to drive)

BMW gets about 50% of the cars value in the 1st 3 years in the leases(~50% lease residuals) meaning the rest of the car's life is worth about 50% of selling price. Maybe they CPO it and get the other 50% or maybe the car was sold and the 1st owner eats the 50% on trade-in. Honestly it is the 1st owners that BMW cares about. Only if the reliability problems are SO bad that people stop buying / leasing new BMWs does BMW start to care.

Build quality can be great for 5 years and then drop off with some BMW owners thinking build quality is great if they trade out of a car every 4 years.

I don't disagree with you re: the acceptability of BMW tranny failures. See some of my earlier posts on trannies. My point is that BMW with its strong brand and loyal consumer base decided to make its vehicles more disposable (planned obscelence), forcing its customers to re-up and get another BMW or make repairs using BMW parts more frequently. MB does the same thing.

I don't think getting the awesomeness of a German car is worth a tranny repair so I now own a Lexus as my other car. I bought it for $10K and put 30k miles on it (130k miles total on the car) and no problems. I've been lucky but I cant see doing that with a German car of the same vintage.

People vote with their wallets. If enough people move away from BMW and it costs BMW enough money, then they'll change. Not before

I never put more than 50,000 miles on any BMW I've owned.

This is where I think a lot of people are confused. I have not seen anywhere, in BMW's own marketing or advertisements even, that 'reliability' has been mentioned.

Performance, luxury, driving dynamics, ... but never reliability. (sad for us, really, but true.)

Here's a little info for you transmission junkies........:D
http://www.xoutpost.com/bmw-sav-foru...intenance.html

So, does this mean you would be okay with the corollary of your inference? By not explicitly saying the major components are reliable, BMW is saying they are to be considered unreliable or poorly-made? You see, you can't really have an ultimate driving machine that PERFORMS if its major components are unreliable or poorly made ... IMO, it is poor logic to suggest BMW is not making any reliability claims regarding major components simply because they do not explicitly state it in their ads. It is, in fact, implied due to the connection those major components have with the other parts and claims being made - without reliable major components, those other claims aren't true or reliable either.

I am finding it it difficult to understand what some are saying here.

I have had a number of cars and wouldnt excpect a car of this quality to have reliability issues - all cars may have some issues - minor at worst - but to do trannies or torque converters at such low km I beleive is simply not acceptible.

i was told by people in the trade that these cars have a 500k klm service life, they have been designed to operate for 500k klm before being scrapped i suppose.

I always looked at buying quality as paying for something upfront that would outlast something cheaper without the headaches.

obviously you need to perform routine maintenance and my cars get that done every 10k not 20k as suggested by manufacturer - all things being equall they should last.

fortunatley i could afford to fix my car but like anything, no one likes to through money away.

Exactly right. I think some are so blinded by what they like about their Bimmer's, and maybe so badly want to justify the ridiculous amounts of money people have to spend to fix what should not break so soon, that they willfully turn away from using common sense, and in so doing don't hold BMW accountable for crappy components, and inexcusably pathetic customer care especially when it comes to the transmissions on X5's.

Some of you guys are funny.
If you're that unhappy, sell
your BMW and buy a Hyundai.......:rofl::rofl:

I think that is missing the merit of a valid concern regarding holding something we do enjoy and like to a higher standard (I also think you know that; if you don't, come back to the light of truth, brother). As my friend who is a Master BMW Mechanic even says, BMW has become a bit too cheap in how they make certain components especially when it comes to all of the plastic they use in the engine bay.

And your friend the "Master BMW Mechanics" word is law?
How are you or anyone else round these parts going
to hold BMWNA to a higher standard? Whatever truth
there is to be told will only fall on deaf ears spoken here.

As I said if the product as described by your Master BMW Mechanics
doesn't live up to your expectations why not move on and get
something that fits you expectations regarding reliability.
That's what I would do........

Is your word law?

Using your rationale, we'd turn the other cheek, and just be happy to hand over our money while being taken advantage of in every case where something or someone is performing at "less than adequate" levels while not being accountable enough to provide a fair remedy. A person can BOTH want to keep a product, and demand that the maker of that product do a better job in the manufacture and support of the product while also being a loyal, good customer. In fact, I'd say such customers are often the best ones to have as they provide honest feedback which helps to drive good companies to be better companies, and lagging companies who just want profits at any cost out of business.

Look, if you are happy with your experience with BMW X5's, that is fine. But the thread title is about "Transmission Reliability." It is a right, and good thing for people to post their concerns here while also contemplating what BMW should do (and may very well do with enough pressure) to help correct obvious flaws in one of their components and in their methods for maintaining/addressing said component.

My thoughts on transmission failures have been included in (many) previous threads, some of which Quick has linked in this thread.

A couple of thoughts:

Why does everyone seem to think that changing the transmission fluid will extend the life of the automatic transmission? Documented failures here haven't been due to burnt (overheated) fluid, but rather due to torque converters, electronic sensors, reverse clutches, software, etc. None of those would be improved by changing the fluid, and if changing the fluid dislodges any sediment then in fact changing it would hasten those failures.

If anyone is buying an X5 planning on 500 k km service life, they are dreaming IMO. The engines will probably be fine. The software and electronics, however, will sideline the vehicle long before the engines wear out.

BMW have never promised that the transmissions will last your lifetime, or that they will last the vehicle's lifetime. They have said that the fluid will last the transmission's lifetime. So far, that has been pretty accurate, given the lack of failures attributable to fluid breakdown.

I am with Wagner. I have purchased five BMWs in recent years, and didn't keep any of them more than 80,000 km (50,000 miles). Personally, I sell them after a few years so that kids and others can buy them used, and then spend their money on nuisance repairs. I buy BMWs new because they aren't expensive for what I get. If BMW spent more money making the transmission good enough to last 500,000 miles, I wouldn't buy the cars in the first place because they would be too expensive. They have an appropriate level of durability for the price point.

We are picking on BMW a fair bit in this thread, but they aren't even BMW transmissions. They are built by ZF and GM, two companies that makes some of the best automatic transmissions in the world. Sure, BMWs will be obsolete in a few years, same as most other brands. That is the price we pay for the constant consumer demands for more power, lower emissions, more electronic options, more technology, and so on. Does anyone else remember driving vehicles that didn't have reverse cameras, PDC, DSC, 8 speed automatics with lock up torque converters and adaptive shift algorithms? It wasn't that many years ago, yet people are still expecting the same reliability they got from cars that did not have those features.

willgabriel

First off I'm not a BMW Master Mechanic (But I will be seeing
mine In the morning) So I'll ask him for his educated opinion.

If what you say is correct there is no way I would continue to buy a product
if I felt as you do. The best remedy to improve products is for people
to stop buying defective products and buy something else.
If enough people do that then perhaps the MFG will get the message.

I agree that "customers are often the best ones to have as they provide
honest feedback which helps to drive good companies to be better companies"
But that only works if the MFG is listening which
is why I suggested in another post that if this issue is a serious as
you believe it is then set up a website (only takes and hour) and enlist
all those who share your concerns. That may get BMW"s attention.
Especially if there are as many people with the same issue everyone
claims there is.

Go ahead and post here all you want (all the good it will do).
I'm just suggesting that I don't see what good it will do within
the confines of this forum especially if theres a possibility that
the problem isn't as big as you claim it is.

Better yet set up a BMW complaint twitter account. If you get
enough followers you'll get some attention for sure.

I also agree "It is a right, and good thing for people to post their concerns
here while also contemplating what BMW should do regarding obvious
flaws in one of their components and in their methods for maintaining/addressing said component.

But I disagree that it may very well do with enough pressure to help correct
transmission problems. I've been around these parts for a while and
BMW has said and continues to say that transmission problems are addressed within the
warranty period and in some cases out to 100,000 miles.

That being the case I seriously doubt that any discussion we have about
transmission problems is going cause BMW to perk up to an issue
they are already aware of and all of a sudden change their ways.

You want to push their button? Gather your forces, get your legal
team together and go for it. I'm sure all those who are having tranny
problems will be rooting for your success, as will I

Listen guys, there is no BMW owner who doesn't wish for their car to have the same reliability level as Toyota or Honda or Nissan. And there isn't one car owner who likes to have their car break down and have to pay for the repairs.

With that being said, customers talk with their pockets. If you like a brand, you buy it and the brand stays alive and does business as it always has. If you don't pay for that brand, the brand will die or change its ways to become something that you will pay for.

Really, even if we all agree in this thread or forum that yes, BMW has the crappiest parts built into these cars, nothing will come out of it unless people stop buying BMW and moving on to other brands.


If you don't like the brand for whatever reason, move on. It is seriously as simple as that.

I respect your opinion, and think you make good points regarding the advanced technology in today's cars causing much of the problems. However, I can't go with your logic regarding BMW's price-point justifying transmissions that only last 50-100k miles without a significant number needing replacement. Lexus LX's and GX's cost just as much as X5's, and their transmissions are quite superior. BMW's should be too. The fluid may indeed be lifetime and not be the cause of the failure's, but that does not excuse BMW for not doing a better job covering the other failures that basically demand a person replace the whole transmission before 150k miles. That's absurd. Moreover, the fact BMW doesn't make the transmission in no way excuses them. They still put the transmission in, and put their name on the vehicle (Toyota, as I understand it, doesn't make the throttle part that is the reason behind their recall either, but they aren't ducking their responsibility). Anyway, if we were just talking valve cover gaskets or thrust rod bushings, that'd be no big deal, but the transmission should be much more durable on a $60K+ SAV than they are on the BMW X5. And if they will not consistently last up to 150k miles, BMW should either demand the supplier improve their product, or cover at least half of the costs of a new transmission when ANY X5 transmission fails under normal use before 150k miles ...


AND Quicksilver: I agree that posting on here will not pressure BMW to change their policy regarding the transmission. This board is just a steam-release valve that can help those with trouble to both find solutions, and comfort. The formation of a website and Twitter account could ratchet up the pressure on BMW, but I think the best avenue is the legal one in which enough signatures are signed to an official complaint that BMW realizes they had better invest more in their "goodwill," and less in their spin/excuses when it comes to the transmission issues ...

Earlier on in this thread you suggested that any reasonable person should expect BMW transmissions to go longer than 150,000 miles. I am not sure why you picked that number, since it is well over the warranty that BMW offers, but in any case you are now suggesting that BMW transmissions only last 50-100 k miles. There are a lot of X5 owners with more miles than that on their original transmissions that would disagree with your conclusion that 50-100 k is the life of a BMW transmission.

Actually, I said a reasonable person should expect a BMW transmission to last at least 150k miles before failing especially considering BMW has said they need no special maintenance (no fluid changes, etc). Otherwise, indeed many people never have a problem with their X5 transmission, but the one's who do have problems seem to have them anywhere between 30-100k miles. This observation does not invalidate the first suggestion. In fact, if BMW would extend their warranty coverage (or at least partial coverage) for the problematic transmissions to 150k miles, that would pass the reasonable person test, IMO.

At least 150k? That's definately a stretch, and I'm sure there are more than 20 people who will completely disagree w/ your opinion. The fact that you take BMW's suggestion as gospel is almost laughable since that's probably the worst thing they ever did, and they've also stopped suggesting that.

That in NO way removes their responsibility/accountability for the years in which they CLEARLY stated the transmission was "maintenance-free" for the lifetime of the transmission. And with companies like Toyota now facing class action suits for transmissions on their 2001 and newer RAV-4's because of similar issues not addressed properly, the ONLY think that is laughable is some people's blind love for BMW that doesn't hold their feet to the fire for using a transmission on a $60k+ SAV that won't consistently last 150k miles. BMW are the experts. If their advice/rec's prove harmful or wrong, the consumer (the novices relying on the experts) have recourse in expecting BMW to make right what they made wrong.

Why not write BMWNA regarding this issue and get back to us with
their answer. I suspect if they are reasonable people perhaps they
will agree with you. Either way I believe there are some of us that
would be interested in their written response to you concerns......

One suggestion. Please express your concerns the same way you
posted in this thread. Your position as you laid it out so far
doesn't seem to have a lot of support so I would be interested
to see how they respond.

Exactly what accountability are you speaking of here? BMW warranted their vehicles (and the automatic transmissions) for 50,000 miles. They offered buyers in the US an insurance policy good up to 100,000 miles (extended warranty) for those that wanted to buy it.

Do you have any examples of transmissions failing prior to 50,000 miles that BMW did not stand behind in terms of their warranty obligations? How about examples of people who had BMW extended warranty and were denied coverage prior to 100,000 miles?

If you want to focus on the fluid change recommendations, then it would help if you provided data on transmission failures caused by not changing the transmission fluid.

As for changing the fluid recommendations, wasn't that coincident with changing the transmission design? BMW never retracted or changed their fluid change recommendations to my knowledge, although I certainly could be wrong. What they did was move to newer components, with less data, and reduced the maintenance interval at the same time.

I looked up your Toyota class action example. Seems to be an ECM problem, not a transmission problem. The person that filed the lawsuit stated that their Toyota transmission failed 6000 miles after the warranty expired at 100,000 miles, and that although Toyota offered them a free transmission when it failed again (faulty reman transmission) they turned it down and sued on principle. They didn't just sue for their costs, they want to get on the 'lets screw the automakers' bandwagon and so made it a class action suit. That just seems like shameful behavioiur.

You have suggested several times that BMW should give you a free 150,000 mile warranty that you didn't pay for, but are somehow entitled to. That seems to be the real issue.

My X5 transmission failed at 75,000 Km , (approx 50,000miles). For at least 5,000K's prior to this it was exhibiting symptoms such as harsh shifting, delays shifting into reverse and general poor shift quality which the dealer insisted was NORMAL.

I kept complaining, (weekly, sometimes daily) and had to provide written threats of legal action and actually started proceedings through our consumer complaints process before they agreed to do anything.
This, even after it went into TRANS FAILSAFE twice within the period of a week during the last week of the warranty.

Eventually rebuilt 2 weeks outside warranty period ended after I involved my solicitors.

I understand that this may not be a typical dealer response, but when a car exhibits such obvious symptoms, dealers running blindly to the BMW "Standard response book" to tell unsuspecting owners everything is normal is just plain wrong. It shouldn't have to be so hard.

I'm lucky enough that I'm a persistant bastard and I stuck to my guns and kept insisting that they were wrong, whereas someone else who didn't recognise the symptoms (and I'm certainly no expert!) could have been stuck with the $7K repair bill.

No, my transmission has not failed, so I would be getting nothing. The fact I am arguing is BMW transmission components fail before the "lifetime" a reasonable person would expect to get from a transmission on a $60k+ vehicle ... (150k miles would seem reasonable) and some if not all of the blame should be acknowledged and embraced by BMW especially considering the fact that through the 2007 model (?), they claimed the transmission needed no maintenance. It's a quite simple and sound basis for a formal legal complaint, and is only made complex by those who a. would lose something if BMW was made to pay for all or some of the repair of any "maintenance-free" transmission on any X5 that failed before 150k miles, or b. those who are blinded by a BMW devotion.


Ps- BLACK 5's post: EXACTLY!!! Exhibit A. BMW's cost/benefit ethos/ethic has sacrificed its customers in this area for far too long. The Toyota case I cited was merely to show that legal action is often the only thing that will get some of these companies to do the right thing, and assume responsibility for their mistakes. Again, this is simple accountability; to not see or actually defend BMW truly reveals that you are in category a. or b.

Your warranty statement may be different than mine, I am not sure what US law states about consumer's expectations for component life up to triple the warranty period (50,000 miles). My warranty states that there are no implied warranties beyond what is covered by the warranty statement. That pretty much excludes nuisance law suits by owners wanting lifetime warranties.

I don't see the connection to the BMW fluid change recommendations in any way. If you can make a connection between not changing the fluid and the transmissions failing (during the warranty period) then I get it. Since we don't have any documented history on transmission failures that are due to the BMW fluid change recommendations, they are entirely irrelevant.

If a failure happens during the warranty period, I fully support the rights of the owner to claim against that warranty. Black 5 appears to have had a valid claim, and from what I have read above he should have received the benefit of the warranty he paid for. I am not advocating that he should receive a free warranty three times longer than the one he paid for, but I am glad to see that his dealer (who appears to be somewhat incompetent) finally dealt with it. Usually, documenting a problem before the expiry of the warranty is sufficient to be able to make a claim if you have a failure soon after the warranty expires. If a dealer is non-responsive, I would simply go to another dealer, assuming that is an option.

I am not sure what the point of your attacks on BMW enthusiasts are. It seems to be that if we agree with you fine, and if we don't we are either on the BMW payroll or blinded by some sort of fanboy mentality? Is that the full extent of your argument? How about if we have several decades of experience in dealer service management (non-BMW in my case), and we simply think your argument is entirely without merit?

I am not a BMW employee or shareholder. But if I was a shareholder, I would be fairly happy with BMW's focus on driving enthusiasts, customer loyalty, repeat sales, and profitability. BMW is one of very few remaining independent vehicle manufacturers and has been able to compete by focusing on the owner experience. I suggest that BMW sales results over the past 10 years supports that thesis.

If one unhappy customer is replaced by multiple happy customers (just extrapolating the sales figures referenced above), to the benefit of BMW shareholders, isn't that the objective of a for-profit company?

willgabriel

I guess where I'm having trouble with your argument is when you say
"I am arguing is BMW transmission components fail before the "lifetime"
a reasonable person would expect to get from a transmission on a $60k+ vehicle ... (150k miles would seem reasonable)"

Who sets the standard for reasonable? Why not 300K. Why is your decision that 150K a reasonable sound basis for a formal legal complaint?
And you still didn't answer my suggestion about hashing it out with
BMWNA to see what they think about your expectations.Isn't that reasonable?

Finally seeing as how your transmission has not failed, I fail to see
what you're complaining about......:dunno:

As of a year ago (Jan '09), BMW had sold 845,000 X5s world wide. Sales to date are now close to 1 million units. If X5s were as flawed and unreliable as some people seem to think I would say that we would have heard a lot more about it.

1. It is not an attack on BMW enthusiast. Most that I know are reasonable. 2. BMW establishes the warranty, AND ALSO labels their transmission "maintenance-free" which, yes, includes the fluids, but also the other components that are failing leading to the need for a full transmission change. And what do you mean there is not necessarily a connection between not changing the fluid and BMW's rec to not do so? If there was no connection, why did BMW change their policy? Hmmmm ... again, the fact that BMW gets to define the warranty period while also making expert rec's regarding how major components are maintained, BUT THEN wants no culpability when a major component that most reasonable people would expect to last 150k miles fails is highly problematic and grounds for a formal complaint.

Reasonable is determined by social mores and expectations in conjunction with an evaluation of similar products. I throw out 150k miles as I suspect most vehicles' transmissions last that long without needing to be fully replaced. Otherwise, yes, contacting BMW NA is a good idea. Of course, the weight of that correspondence - which has already been initiated by others - would be benefited by a formal complaint. Finally, why do we defend and come to the aid of people being robbed? Because it is wrong, and we know that if there is injustice for one, then none of us can rest assured that we shall have justice.

And for the person posting about the mass number of BMW X5's sold and the small number of complaints, on this board alone there are many, many complaints. That leads me to believe that there are many thousands throughout the world. That is enough to get BMW to change their policy - IF a formal complaint is filed, and argued effectively.

I never said there was no connection between not changing the fluid and BMW's recommendations. On some models there is a recommendation to change the fluid at 100,000 miles, and on others there isn't. I said there was no connection between not changing the fluid and transmissions failing from lack of fluid changes.

I don't know that BMW did change their policy. That is a conspiracy theory. It is similar to the urban myth that BMW went to extended fluid change intervals only because they started paying for fluid changes in some markets.

BMW has had different recommendations for different transmissions. They changed their transmissions before changing their recommendations. I don't have a record of them going back and changing the recommendations on transmission models that were superceded, at least on the models I have owned. Perhaps they did, I just haven't seen it. If you have the BMW bulletin (SIB or TSB) that changes the interval, please post it.

Fixed your post. Agree completely.

:rofl: Okay, I think it is very clear that, on the whole, major corporations with the funds to hire numerous attorneys and prolong court cases mete out far more injustices than do consumers. To think otherwise strikes me as naive ... or do you have a financial interest in BMW (or another major company)? Oh, and btw, before you think otherwise, I am all for tort reform that limits liability in certain cases, but I am also for consumers having fair access to / representation in the adjudication of cases in which they would otherwise be at the merciless machine that is consumerism and cost/benefit analysis.

Since it is a BMW X5 board, perhaps we should point to cases where BMW attorneys have systematically meted out injustices. While I am sure there are more, I only know of one, and it had to do with this website, which used to have the name X5 in the URL. I haven't seen any related to transmission failures, which is the subject at hand.

I suspect I am going to have to get out my books by Ayn Rand if we are going to go off into the tangent of 'merciless machines that are consumerism.' :rofl:

Ah OK I get it now. It appears to me at least that you believe you have
assumed some sort of moral stand regarding BMW transmissions.
You also believe that BMW is purposely robbing people by installing in
X5's a transmission they know will fail prematurely.

I believe Fraser expressed it this way "BMW has sold 845,000 X5s world wide."
If what you say is true then either 845,000 X5s world wide will
fail prematurely or some will fail. The question then becomes
what are the published facts regarding the amount of
transmissions that have failed according to your recollections that would lead us to presume
that an injustice and terrible wrong has been committed and justice is required?
How many of the 25K members on this board have
transmission troubles that can attributed to some sort of
premature failure BMW planned in order to cheat customers.

I sympathize with anyone who has had difficulties regarding their
transmissions but like all vehicles I have owned I expect that
at some point mechanically something is gonna break. When it
does break I wont believe and I doubt anyone believes there is a
moral conspiracy on the part of BMW to cheat or rob people
regarding transmissions. But then you never know. Someone at BMWNA
may indeed be sitting in a board room trying to figure out
how to rob the next unsuspecting BMW owner.

Good grief, man, your "version" is far more fantastic than anything I was thinking. I simply see a problem with a significant number of X5 transmissions that BMW is not willing to correct as they should. As such, I strongly believe a formal complaint should be and will be filed in order to "assist" BMW in doing the right thing to remedy the issues (monetary losses, etc) associated with a less-than-adequate major component that they had thought to be "maintenance free", and built to last at least 150k miles. Do tell me how/why BMW would have built the X5 believing the transmission would've lasted less than 150k miles under normal conditions? Now THAT would be grounds for investing in the conspiracy theory you outline that I was not implying.

I don't remember BMW ever saying that they provided a component that they had thought to be "maintenance free", and built to last at least 150k miles. (remember I quoted you regarding the ""maintenance free", and built to last at least 150k miles" part

But I was just responding/joking about your previous posts where you said "why do we defend and come to the aid of people being robbed? Because it is wrong, and we know that if there is injustice for one, then none of us can rest assured that we shall have justice." Being robbed..... :rofl::rofl:


I'm just laughing because defending truth and the American way is the motto of
Superman and just may take Superman to reveal the true motive behind those
BMW crooks who are robbing BMW users.

I do agree with you and have already said that if one believes there is indeed
a problem then "PLEASE" get started suing BMW. I'm anxious to see the outcome. Still laughing........:rofl::rofl:

BMW never said the transmission would last 150,000 miles. If they wanted to make the transmission last longer, they would simply put a larger and heavier transmission in, add some redundant systems to monitor it, buy sensors and actuators with a lower failure rate, essentially taking a NASA approach to MTBF. The problem with that is that the vehicle would be heavier, slower, less sporting, and more expensive. All of those are going against the philosophy of what they are selling, which is good performance at a certain price point.

I buy new BMWs, and replace them every few years. Others buy 100,000 mile BMWs and worry about transmission failures. Here's the problem: Every policy settlement and gift that BMW gives to those owners well out of warranty makes my next BMW more expensive. If the next vehicle BMW designs is heavier and slower, that is a negative for me. If the price goes up to improve the reliability (and reliability usually costs money....) then the purchase price goes up. I accept the reliability that I paid for. It isn't perfect. I could get much better reliability by trading off other factors, but I choose not to.

I vote against all of the above so-called improvements, and will continue to vote with my wallet. I shouldn't have to pay for other's unrealistic expectations. I don't wish a transmission failure on anybody, but I don't see why I should have to pay for a failure that someone else experiences out of warranty, simply because they feel wronged. If it is under warranty, and hasn't been abused, BMW must fix it. If it isn't, buy an extended warranty and don't expect future BMW purchasers to pay for your loss.

So, how long do you think BMW anticipated the X5 transmission would last - under normal conditions - when they installed it? Beyond all the silly nonsense you are "funnin'" with, I'd like to hear a well-thought answer to this most pertinent question ...

:iagree: 100% end of story.

I am openly laughing at the naivety/willful ignorance that has you believing a "performance" SAV can't have a transmission that SHOULD last at least 150k miles, AND that BMW didn't expect their transmission to last that long from the beginning at the $60k+ price point. BMW transmission are not put under that much stress when compared to other similarly-priced SUV/SAV's that they need to be built more cheaply or lighter to preserve price and/or performance. You go on drinking that Kool-aide if it makes you feel better though ... you and Quicksilver can share a gallon of it as you both have been duped.

I have no clue and I doubt that any other normal BMW owner
knows either. What we do Know is what the warranty period was
and what the options are beyond that and that's about as well
thought out as most people are regarding the issue.

I also know I could have bought an extended warranty which would
have covered certain things to 100k. I choose not to so I understood
the risk when I made that choice. I'm at 62K right now and honestly
I'm not worried about what might happen.

If it breaks I'll fix it or make another choice......;)

Pick me, pick me....:rofl::rofl:

From a technical perspective, you have to separate transmission failures into those that are due to wear-out, and which thus can be predicted in advance by oil sampling, clutch disk wear patterns, load testing, etc. We know from the X5 transmissions that have gone 200,000 miles that the X5 transmissions do have a reasonable life before being worn out. I would even go so far as to say that most if not all failures that we have seen are not due to wearing out, but rather random failures of smaller subcomponents. Those smaller components include plastic pieces in the torque converter, electrical sensors, actuators, software, and so on. The trouble with those sorts of failures is that they are far more random in nature, ie it is hard to draw a bell curve with a predicted reliability rate. (incidentally, it is also why there is such a debate on whether ever changing the transmission fluid really matters, given the nature of the failures that have been documented)

The likely commercial answer is that BMW expects transmissions to go at least 100,000 miles, since they offer extended warranties to that mileage, and such warranties do not appear to be heavily padded to cover the cost of any significant number of transmission failures. If I was the engineer involved in that program, I would have included a safety factor in that calculation, ie more than 100,000 miles.

Fair enough, and I understand and believe in personal responsibility. Yet, as this 2007 Consumer Affairs blurb shows, BMW's response to the transmission issues leaves much to be desired, and in fact, sounds too much like Ford when it came to the Pinto and Toyota about two years ago when they thought they could "get by" with distract and denial tactics. A day of reckoning is coming though ...

Transmission Failures Plague BMW Owners

Fair answer. Thanks. I look forward to hearing/reading what BMW says when they are asked the same question under examination ...

Call it like you see it but IMO I'm not stress about my so called naivety/willful ignorance as you describe it. I believe in reality and reality says that you have no substitive evidence regarding your claims.

What you continue to promote is wrong and your naivety/willful ignorance
regarding reality is preventing you from realizing facts you have already been given regarding the matter. You continue to repeat the same refrain after being given expert information regarding your position go back and review JCL's threads. He's right on point.

As I said I agree with your concerns now go and sue somebody.:thumbup:

I am very glad you are laughing, because I am rolling on the floor. It is very entertaining here.

I never said that a performance SUV can't have a transmission that WILL last at least 150,000 miles. I said that you didn't buy one that was guaranteed to that point, so I don't want to pay for your error.

My current performance SUV has a transmission that will last 500,000 km without trouble. I won't keep it that long, but that is besides the point.

I noted in a post above (purely opinion) that the transmission probably will last 150,000 miles, or more, on average. They won't all last that long due to the nature of the failure. It won't be worn out when it fails, it will have a random failure involving consequential damage from a minor subcomponent, IMO. I knew that going in though, so I won't be joining any class action suits to make BMW pay for my naivete.

Simply put: Just because we can offer logical explanations for the failures / build quality, etc after the fact (my Master BMW Mechanic has offered the same reasons), in no way excuses BMW for their choices in handling the failures in the way they have ... so, "willful ignorance" in this case is not refusing to understand good explanations as to "why" there are problems (I agree with both of you there), but in washing one's hands of any concern for the fact that BMW as a company is failing its costumers in the way they are handling the problems to the point that they seem to be in a disturbingly arrogant denial mode.

Well, that's your choice. So, fine. As already stated, the main issue isn't NECESSARILY that the transmissions seem to fail too soon, but that BMW is not backing their product that even you admit should be able to go at least 150k miles without failing. NO "reasonable consumer" would expect a BMW transmission to need replacing (at a $7k clip) before 150k miles based on the quality they seem to represent and the price of the vehicles (and that's the standard here - not what you would do with your more advanced knowledge of BMW's weaknesses that undermine what BMW claims by explicit and implicit representations). Again, if they do fail, that's a problem, but the fact BMW has all but denied any responsibility for any issues with the transmission thus leaving many consumers hanging out to dry or at least wrestling with BMW over fixing what is under warranty - THAT is the MAIN issue that must be addressed.

So, are you the one suing them? :rofl::rofl:

That would fit right in with your ongoing search for grounds. ;)

No, I am investigating though. I'll keep you apprised of the situation. I really enjoy BMW's, but I am (obviously) disturbed by some of the "trends" I am seeing in their quality and customer care dept's ...

A 2007 article by a consumer web site is admissable? Especially when all the examples quoted are 2000 and 2001 vehicles, and thus well out of warranty?

And you 'understand and believe in personal responsibliity?' Really? :stickpoke

BMW is not the problem. What you should do is figure out how to improve the BMW dealer network, as the dealers are the customer interface. The real problem IMO is that US purchasers focus so much on the lowest purchase cost for a vehicle that the dealer community often isn't making a living selling cars. It is a vicious cycle.

If you want to go after BMW, you will need to figure out how to isolate a problem that BMW willfully suppressed. It would also help if you could get the US government safety stooges to have an opinion. Look at your transmission example, you are mixing up various models with different transmission models from different suppliers. You lumped reverse gear failures together with shifting issues. Time to hire some expert witnesses.

:iagree:

Exactly;

Before taking on those crooks in court might be a good idea
to find out which transmission are you talking about,
what failure do you mean? Is it the floor mat, or the
electronics. Is it consumer error (off roading peeling rubber?)
or is there some other issue like changing the fluid....

Sorry I couldn't resist. I did ask my "master mechanic"
about this issue and he said that it depends on which
transmission your talking about. What year X5? What model?
He explained that the failure rate isn't any worse than it
has been in the past and he has seen few transmissions
that needed to be replaced.........

That article sounds like an abridged version of www.noreverse.org and the same stories I've been reading about in the forums for years. Ironically, even reported at the end of the article, that BMW's sales continue to rise. Thank god for Car & Driver keeping the 3 series in the "10 Best Cars" category for as long as the magazine has been around...too bad most people don't do their homework until after they have a failure, then they see how widespread this issue is.

After working at dealerships, seeing what all the managers drive, seeing the owner driving a Maserati Quattroporte, seeing SA's lie by saying and doing amost WHATEVER it to get a customers car into the shop (sometimes for even pointless repairs that will fail again shortly, to literally not even doing oil changes when the customer paid almost $100) I have absolutely NO sympathy for them having issues "making a living" selling cars...and this is coming from a guy who sold cars for anything from $100-$12000 over MSRP, day in and day out for about 3yrs total. Rightfully so that US purchasers look for the best price, otherwise everything from clothes to TV's will still only be sold at mom and pop stores instead of places likeebay, WalMart, etc.

Obviously paying a markup for a product is expected, but at some point, it's far too much...buyer beware though. Most every desk manager and owner I've have the misfortune of working w/ was completely out of touch and only gave a crap about the sale, no matter how upset or a poor decision it was to "force" the customer into buying something they ultimately couldn't afford, just so they can compare numbers w/ the competing dealership in their region. I switched to real estate instead and it was great for years, but as we all know, greedy banks and shady realtors took that industry down as well....that is the epitome of viscious cycle.

Anyone who bought cars from any dealer has been taken once or twice why would dealer expect them to bend over and hand out the vaseline again and again.

But I am scratching my heads reading business-week or money magazine for how customers of Lexus love their dealers. Has anyone blowing weed smoke in the waiting room of Lexus or what.
Maybe that part of demographic, Lexus owners tend to be in their early fifties while BMW onwers are in early/mid forty.

Dealers (long)
 

What you are describing with BMW in the US is an underperforming dealer network. BMW Canada, purely as one example, is a different organization, with a different dealer agreement. The dealers I have dealt with here have all been better than the average experience recounted in the US. My current dealer is great. I bought my last five vehicles from them without a price negotiation. When I had a warrantable failure they bent over to get the car in the same day, twice (LF wheel bearing on the X5, HP fuel pump on the 535). They have 65 BMW loaner cars, but in both those situations they were all out, so they called a rental car agency, and paid for it. Scheduled services are booked in advance, and they have always had a car for me. I have referred lots of people to them. They are the most successful BMW dealer in Canada, because they take care of their customers. I am sure they have some percentage of dissatisfied customers, but my experience has been good. I have referred multiple purchasers there. So, in my mind, it isn't BMW corporate, which owns BMWNA and BMWCA, but rather the dealer network that is the big differentiator.

I also worked in two locations of a Ford dealership, and saw a successful dealership model. Working in an independent repair garage that dealt with about 20 different dealerships for both parts and occasional technical support, I saw a wide variety of automotive dealer models and approaches.

I don't think it is about the demographic of customers, but rather the relationship that the corporate team has with the dealer network. Is corporate prepared to pull the dealership if there are problems? Do they have too many dealers? Not enough? How good are their training programs for both service and sales teams? What are their warranty reimbursement percentages like?

It grates on me whenever I see the phrase stealership. I have been working in various automotive and non-automotive dealer businesses for over 25 years. Some dealers shouldn't be in business. But to lump all dealers in with the bad ones is wrong. It also works against consumers, because while they should be on guard, and be informed, to assume that their dealership is a thief will not bring them better service. They should hold their dealers accountable, and understand that what you really have going on in the US is a viscious cycle whereby customers assume they are dealing with thiefs, dealers act like it, and everybody moans. Instead, find a good dealer, tell everybody about them, and help reverse the cycle.

Just some miscellaneous ramblings.

One of the problems in the U.S. is the power of the dealers. Historically, the auto dealers were one of the "pillars of the community" supporting lots of local civic things. This led to them having lots of influence on the individual state legislators. As a result, lots of the states have very restrictive laws as to the conditions under which an auto manufacturer can pull a dealer's franchise. The U.S. car manufactures have been trying to cut the number of dealers for the past 20 years or so, but these restrictive laws have been in the way, often resulting in the manufacturers paying large sums of money to the existing dealers just so they can close their dealership. Because of this, the auto manufacturers have limited ability to bring bad dealers in-line with corporate policy and desires.

As an example of the dealer's historic political power, many U.S. States have laws prohibiting car dealers from being open for business on Sunday -- the dealers essentially got together and figured that if they all closed on Sunday they would all still sell the same amount of cars, but they wouldn't have to have their salespeople work on Sunday.