Going to Tahoe for the Snow for the first time
 

I got the 2002 X5 3.0, but I've got Brisgestone Dueler HP Sport, I understand not snow tires.

Any advice? I am completely clueless about this trip and getting a little stressed to be honest. Going on Dec 19th.

Also, I have a 328i, it is obvioulsy not 4x4 but it has Michelin S+M tires on, am I better off?

post edit - I just realized those are summer tires!! If you wind up in snow or ice you are in trouble. Not recommended!

But if you end up driving in the snow and are on all-seasons or snow tires:

1. Allow yourself extra following distance to the car in front of you. It just gives you more time to brake and react to anything that happens. In the same regard, if someone is tailgating you, let them by if at all possible; you don't want them to slam into you if you have to brake.

2. Everything in moderation. No hard acceration, braking, or steering. All wheel drive is great for getting up to speed faster than a similarly equipped 2 wheel drive car, but awd is no advantage in braking. Probably lots of SAV accidents happen as a result of a great system that gets folks up to speed and gets them over their heads at speed!

3. Make sure your washer fluid is full and it is rated for freezing temps and that you are familiar with your defroster controls!

4. Have fun!

When I drove up to a ski resort near Tahoe, with all-season's on my SUV, it made no difference (to the "officials") when the weather got bad. I HAD to put chains on. So it depends on where you need to go when you get there...

#1 turn off your DSC when stopped or not cruising down a fairly clear highway(or road). You will be stuck in 3" of snow if you stop and try to pull forward with DSC on. The X will just sit there and burn the brakes as the DSC tries to stop the wheels from spinning. If you leave the DSC on until you make a run up a step incline you will be stuck halfway up and lose the momentum you needed from the spinning tires. Next, the hill decent control(HDC) is your best friend if you are going down a step incline that is snow or ice covered. If you use the brakes the tail end will come around. The HDC will walk you down with individual wheel braking. I have used HDC on a roller coaster like snow and ice covered road in Co. Leave it on, drive to the crest of one hill, let off at the crest and have the HDC walk you down the backside (It will kick back in when you let off the gas). My worst experiences with this was on the Michelin MXV4's. Great for everything but snow. For the last six years we have had a set of winters, Pirelli scorps ice/snows. Incredible, my wife thanks me every year, the things barely wear. Turn of the DSC go about anywhere, depths to a foot. Read about DSC and HDC in your manual.

I am officially scared to death...I really don't have the option of having different tires on at this point.

The other question I have is this, if I end up having to have chains on, do I need them on all tires? or just the back (or front) ones?

I do understand DSC should be off once on chains.

I also have a '99 328i, it is obvioulsy not 4x4 but it has Michelin S+M tires on, am I better off?

those guys are nuts w/the chains there! We were 500 feet from entrance to Alpine Meadows and were forced to stop and put them on in a blizzard. Buy them now and practice. We had to patronize one of the several entrepreneurs who stand there selling them to all the morons (us) who didn't have them. They make an unbelievable difference. Be careful. Where are you staying/skiing? I love Squaw. Very jealous.

...friends rented cabin, not even sure where on south tahoe. Thing is, I have these oversized tires (for the x5 3.0) 285/45 19" (back) and 255/50 19" (front).

Question still stands: Do I need them on all four?

Is there a place (online) where I can find them?

We were in a fwd saab and only put them on the front. We definitely should have paid the guy the extra $20 to put them on. It's not too hard, you just lay them on ground and drive over a bit and then fold them up and around and clip them. You can get them anywhere along the route (ie: gas stations etc). I don't think you need all 4. I wouldn't worry too much until you are there...maybe it will be dry. If not, chains will turn those racing slicks into awesome snow tires! Have a blast.

joe

I recommend never turning off DSC when moving. Particularly for an inexperienced winter driver, stability control is very valuable.

You won't burn the brakes unless you are using far too much throttle. The brakes will be applied on one wheel, to allow the other wheel on the same axle to drive. Turning off DSC doesn't stop the brakes from being applied.

If you are at a full stop, and try to get going but can't because you have no traction, DSC will apply brakes to the spinning wheel. If both wheels are spinning, DSC will reduce throttle, so the engine won't go above idle. That is when you turn DSC off, to allow wheelspin. You can try to churn through the snow, and if you get some traction the vehicle will move. As soon as you are moving again, turn DSC back on.

Rent a vehicle with winter tires. If you are only going once, it is cheaper than buying the proper tires.

thanks all

wait - are you saying they made you put chains on a 4WD? Did they actually check the tires for the snowflake marking?

I recommend never turning off DSC when moving. Particularly for an inexperienced winter driver, stability control is very valuable.

You won't burn the brakes unless you are using far too much throttle. The brakes will be applied on one wheel, to allow the other wheel on the same axle to drive. Turning off DSC doesn't stop the brakes from being applied.

I did not recommend he not use DSC. When Stoped or moving around in slow/step areas it will get you stuck. Second, how about this, your brakes will smoke just like a burning clutch if your are shifting drive/reverse and do not realize DSC is working against you. Around 40K miles (in 2002) I did this and had my brakes replaced for free. Ever done it?

One point - even if the main roads going up like 50 and 89 are well plowed, you cannot count on that in the neighborhoods in and around Tahoe. Plus most are up some pretty steep hills and then you still have to get into their driveway many of which are not flat. If there is snow up there you will be in serious trouble with 285 summer tires on there. Trust me. I'm not even sure if you can find chains that big. Chains should go on the back of an X5 since it is RWD biased.

Maybe a quick search on CL for some 17" take-offs with all season tires is in order?

I have a set of X3 18x8 nearly new OEM wheels that I would sell you for $450 if you can find tires, but Im in San Jose so need to figure out how to get them up there if that is of any interest. PM me if so.

Or just rent an SUV, but looking at a few options for rentals and you could probably get a set of wheels / tires for similar cost to a weekly SUV rental around here. They really get you for those this time of year.

For the record the chains go only on the rear. It is primarily a rear drive vehicle.

Yes, EVERY single vehicle had to have chains. If you did not have chains on, you had to turn around and go back.

Must be my mistake, I read "#1 step was to turn off DSC when stopped or not moving down a fairly clear highway/road". If you are moving down a snow covered road I think it should be on.

Turning off DSC does not turn off traction control (DTC), so you still have brake intervention with the button pushed or not. If you are hitting the gas enough to smoke the brakes you can do it with or without DSC on. You can't turn off DTC, there is just a higher threshold for brake intervention.

If you burned out your brakes from rocking it back and forth, it isn't a DTC or DSC problem, you just don't have the right tires.

Yes, I have used DSC and DTC extensively in snow. Yes, I have been able to smell hot brakes. No, I have never burned up my brakes, I knew to stop prior to that.

That is very rare in my experience. There are 3 levels of chain controls, and the most common is 2. The roads have to be pretty bad for them to require chains on all vehicles and at that point they are more likely to just close the road completely. I have been up there literally hundreds of times in the snow and even tho I chase storms for powder days I have never seen a level 3 chain control. But it can happen.

From the CALTRANS website:

Requirement One (R1): Chains, traction devices or snow tires are required on the drive axle of all vehicles except four wheel/ all wheel drive vehicles.

Requirement Two (R2): Chains or traction devices are required on all vehicles except four wheel/ all wheel drive vehicles with snow-tread tires on all four wheels.
(NOTE: Four wheel/all wheel drive vehicles must carry traction devices in chain control areas.)

Requirement Three (R3): Chains or traction devices are required on all vehicles, no exceptions.

SNOW-TREAD TIRES:
The California vehicle code section 558 defines a snow-tread tire as follows, " A 'Snow-tread tire' is a tire which has a relatively deep and aggressive tread pattern compared with conventional passenger tread pattern". Snow-tread tires can be identified by examining the sidewall of the tire where the letters MS, M/S, M+S or the words MUD AND SNOW have been stamped into the sidewall.

Your academic opinion continues. This is why you have so many posts. You have nothing better to do than sit around and pontificate. Jezz go drive your truck. Everything I said holds true. In essence you are the driving force that drive knowledgeable people away from these boards. For the record at the time yes I did have MXV4 (as stated before) and Snows for years now. Feel free to show me pictures of your X5 (or now X3) where it is buried to the floor pans.

JLW: For the record the chains go only on the rear. It is primarily a rear drive vehicle.

So the truck is a AWD but only if the truck "thinks" is necessary to engage?

Little confused here. Thanks for your help. : )

Edited for poor taste.

hey now folks - settle down. Has anybody else seen the Top Gear episode where they drive to the north pole in a Toyota truck. Now that is a good episode and some serious off-road snow driving. One thing I took from that - always carry a shovel. They didn't use chains, but the tires were studded.

Absolutely!

I used to have an old Plymoth Trail Duster. That thing would go anywhere, but if the snow was deep enough (18" or so), it would get packed in front of the front axle, and eventually enough would get packed in that it would be a solid block of snow I was pushing. I'd have to stop, shovel out from under the front diff, and then take off again.

I am adding my experience of hill starts on ice and snow . ice is very challenging . snow does not give much problem . the cars have winter tyres .
I have found the best traction with the system on . normal mode . power is reduced after some serious wheelspin , usually a few minutes of spinning .
if you go easy on the power some or all wheels can spin slightly with dtc applying enough brake force to assist traction . the cars do move uphill

I tried hill starts with dsc off . this results in no uphill movement . often the cars slide back downhill with the wheels spinning trying to keep going uphill .

Georg300 as for the 4wd thing, do you have a manual? here are a few statements.

Please look at page 187 as it explains the Four-wheel drive well. I.E. the distribution between the front and rear wheels axles is 38% to 62%. This is why the chains go on the rear.

Pg 86, DSC: In the following exceptional circumstances, it may be effective to deactivate the DSC for a short period:

-When rocking the vehicle or starting off in deep snow.
-On sandy road surfaces
-On poor surfaces with deep ruts
-If the wheels "churn" on muddy surfaces.
-When driving with snow chains.


Pg 132 winter operation:

Snow Chains: Mount BMW snow chains only on tire size 235/65 R 17. Always mount chains in pairs and on the rear wheels only. Read and comply with the chain manufacture's safety precautions. Do not exceed a maximum speed of 30mph(50km/h).

Starting off: When starting in deep snow or "rocking " the vehicle free, it may be advisable to deactivate the DSC system briefly. Refer to page 85.

Personally I would run chains on my 18" tires and have a set. I have never had to due to my snows. Now when not on snow tires the manual precautions pay off.

I agree that was a great edition of Top Gear. I truly feel they had some fear there.
Work with the English often, hate to say the American show is not doing it for me.

Cheers

Regards

Thanks

:iagree:

I have only been better off with DSC off (DTC is still on) when I wanted to churn through deep snow, and wanted wheel spin.

:rofl: I presume you are having a bad day. I hope tomorrow is better for you.

You were right about rocking the vehicle in snowbank, you just blew it when you advised turning off the DSC when driving down a snowy road. Sorry if pointing that out was harsh. It would be a shame for the OP to lose the benefitrs of stability control on snowy roads because of misinformation.

While I don't for a moment think you are serious, I can post pictures in deep snow if you like, but it will have to wait until I am back home at my desktop. I have a laptop with me here in the mountains, and it is snowing heavily, but I don't have a camera with me. I'll see how the BB works.

Totally agree. That's the time when you want it the most.

OP...i'm actually flying into SFO next week and driving to the South Lake area in a 4x4 Tahoe SUV. I keep a shovel and chains at all times for such trips. As c4racer mentioned, always keep tabs on Caltrans website for requirements and updates, it's the most consistent source, outside of opinions and experiences.

Safe travels.

they have a road conditions hotline too, put this in your address book on your phone: 800-427-7623

you can verbally enter the highway number, recommend you check both 50 and 89 if going to South Tahoe area.

Yep...just checked my phone, same #. Thanks for the reminder though.

If conditions are bad, will add melting salt to the mix. Better safe than sorry.

(Tahoe got 8 feet of snow, can't wait to here how the trip went)

Curious to hear how things panned out for OP...

Road conditions were very sketchy over the holidays...88 was shut down for a day due to an avalanche and chain control was in full effect, unless equipped with 4-wheel-drive. At least 10 feet of snow over the holidays with the worst power outages in quite some time.

c4racer...the Caltrans road conditions # was clutch! I almost forgot about it as we usually listen to radio for conditions. Some friends were able to avoid an avalanche on 88 and took 50.

Every time we head to the area, i'm amazed by how many large trucks and SUV's without 4-wheel-drive are stopped for chains or turned around by chain-control. Why buy such a heavy vehicle without 4-wheel-drive if one lives or visits the area? Different strokes i guess :dunno:

Till we hear back from OP...the below pics are a snapshot of the Tahoe area around the same time OP was headed up there. It's the real deal up there and no one should put themselves in the position to lose control on these roads...we got ~4 feet of snow our first night alone. Beautiful up here but dangerous!

http://i55.tinypic.com/ivbe53.jpg
http://i51.tinypic.com/21l34wm.jpg
http://i55.tinypic.com/2h2nofp.jpg
http://i54.tinypic.com/210xdg7.jpg

I was responding to another thread you (OP) created after this one, discussing the same exact thing but it was just deleted. I must've missed the other thread when you originally posted it...assuming this thread you started would've convinced you to consider safer alternatives.

I don't intend on bashing anyone, however, this comment i saw from your other thread struck me as very ill advised and dangerous (especially for someone "visiting Tahoe for the first time").

Temps were in the teens and 20's in the South Lake area. There were several accidents on our way up...and we heard of others over the Holidays. Even with a 4x4 SUV with snow tires, we still carry snow chains in the trunk (just in case!). If you did indeed drive up to Tahoe with your summer tires (even with chains), then congratz, you and perhaps others just ducked a fatal bullet!!

I have 06 X5 4.4 19"sport package with Mich. Damaris tires. 2yrs ago, Oh man, I was drinving my X5 around 35/40 Mph to Sierra Tahoe ski resort on Hwy50, snowy condition, my truck could not handle it. The car spun around when I made a turn. Fortunately, I was able to gain control after it hit the snow bank on the side, some damages on right fender and headlight. It costs me $5K to fix. After that event, I don't drive my X5 to sierra tahoe Hwy 50 during snow condition. Now I have changed my Damaris tires to Michelin Latitude 4 seasons tires M/S, it's awesome. I can drive my truck on the snow without any problem.

A word of careful when you drive your X5 summer tires to tahoe, icey road and snow condition.

Doug

This...

Out of curiousity, Doug, were you just winging it or were you carrying snow chains? And was there chain-control?

I have a 2011 X5 with 20" wheels. This was a helpful post. Thanks!
Too bad I can't take the car to Tahoe.

Put some application-specific wheels and tyres on it and you can go where you like...

I agree with Fraser. and you won't have to go slow and make things dangerous for everyone else too.

tires and rims are cheap off of craigslist, just go get some.