X5 4.4i trans rebuild/repair accomplished (long post)
 

I’m posting the results of my researching and ultimately solving a transmission problem with my 2002 X5 (4.4i). After researching a little bit, I ended up removing, disassembling, and rebuilding both the transmission itself and the valvebody. Although I generally don't have the time to read forums (or otherwise participate) I did make use of information within various forums, and felt the right thing to do is take time to share what I did, and the results therefrom. Again, I'm talking about the 5 speed auto (ZF 5HP24, also known as A5S 440Z).

I'd had my X5 for a couple of years and was well aware that transmission problems pop up with some regularity. In my case, it began as slipping and jerking under certain stop & go traffic situations. Sometimes would end up in 5th gear and in trans failsafe. Car had about 95K miles on it at the time. It seemed to worsen over a few months, so taking the initial easy approach, I dropped the pan, changed the filter, and changed over to Mobil's multivehicle synthetic. I was going to use the called-for Esso stuff, but after looking at an Esso bottle, I noticed it was made by Mobil. Since Mobil says their multiveh stuff is compatible with the BMW spec, why not? The old fluid was dirty and somewhat "black" but did not have an unusual or burned smell. There were no metal parts, chips, or other possible evidence in the pan. Well, as may have been expected, no change. None. As summer progressed, I started to notice that if it was cool out, or on initial start up it would work fine, but would start slipping and jumping up the gears very shortly thereafter. Always ended up in 5th gear failsafe. I downloaded and reviewed a powerflow diagram, and it seemed to me the "A" clutch wasn't holding (that clutch assy is used in 1st through 4th), and the slipping was triggering the faults based on the computer detecting the slip via the input and output speed sensors.

I did have to go through the 5 stages of grief to reach acceptance, and parked it whilst I pondered my options. Finally, I concluded that since there was clearly a transmission problem (not a computer problem), I probably would not be any worse off if I pulled it apart myself and took a look-see. Now, before I head down the whys and wherefores of my pulling the transmission out and apart, I do need to point out a few things. First, I have a well stocked garage, and I am a metal working hobbyist besides. Thus, I find stuff like this interesting as opposed to "a chore". Also, removing this tranny was not my first rodeo, so to speak (although I did think I was long since finished with finding myself horizontal under a car). This is not my main car, or even my second alternate car, so it could stay down for the count as long as necessary.

In researching this, I found that parts for this tranny are readily available and, in my opinion, very reasonably priced. Doing this was starting to become a no-brainer. I ordered a rebuild kit (clutches and seals, etc.) as well as a valve body kit, and the ZF transmission manual. All told maybe $660 or so + fluids. I do have a Bentley manual. While I reviewed its procedures, if you've ever pulled a tranny, then this is straightforward; nothing unusual as far as I was concerned. It took a couple of hours to remove. NOTE - I put the car up on platforms (maybe 14" tall?) and left it on the wheels. The reason is that since I have to do the refill procedure with the car running, I did not know what the Electronic Height Control computer would make of an apparent "airborne" BMW while running during the fill process, so I wanted it to be at regular right height and on its wheels. Well, guess what. You have to pull a front wheel off to remove the sway bar on an X5 (and you won't get out of not removing the bar), so that's a consideration I had to deal with. As mentioned, I have a wide selection of tools, and knew already this one would use somewhat atypical size wrenches, like skinny 18mm (sway bar), 16mm here and there, etc. I supported the trans on a tranny jack, lowered the cross-member slightly to gain access to the transfer case bolts, and removed first the cross-member (one bolt), and then the transfer case. Then I lowered the transmission ever so slightly and carefully to gain access to the bell-housing bolts. I should point out that before lowering, I did unfasten the fan shroud under the hood so that as the engine rocked back, the fan wouldn’t bind. I also kept tabs on the clearance and any lines, cables, etc so nothing would pull or tear. It went well. I sat indian style with my head where the transfer case used to be, and fed the appropriate socket up along the tranny to each bell-housing bolt, and backed it off. I'm not a fan of those star-headed Torx head style bolts, but things went well enough. NOTICE: the 2 uppermost bolts are a different (smaller) head size than the others, and that little piece of info is less than obvious from the viewpoint you have with yer head in the trans tunnel. I have air ratchets, so once I broke the bolts loose by hand, I could just trigger it to back them out. Also, 2 of the bolts hold the starter as well, and the 2 bolts opposite the starter are actually a nut & bolt combo. Then just remove the trans in normal fashion (and don't drop the converter out the front in the process). I’d taken pictures of how the various wiring harnesses were routed over and around the transmission. Several are “clipped” to the fins on the upper part of the housing. Once you’ve lowered the back slightly, you can see how things are run.

Skipping most of the removal as straightforward, my only other suggestion is if working alone as I did, have a handful of jack stands around to support the exhaust assy as you remove it - it's all welded as a large "chunk" to come out. I replaced all exhaust nuts since they were off, and such hardware is cheap.

Transmission disassembly was straightforward as well. Unlike the Bentley manual which I consider somewhat optional in this case (assuming you have worked under a car/truck before), I consider the transmission manual essential. The transmission really only comes apart and goes together one way, but there's a wealth of little odds and ends in the manual which decreases the stress of the unknown. I bought a couple of bus-boy tubs at the local restaurant supply place - these are invaluable containers to hold stuff, catch oil, whatever. And they stack inside each other when not in use.

Ok, so pulling this apart was no big deal, but you will need "special tools" in a manner necessary to compress, I dunno, I call them "cone springs. I did all but one of them using PVC adapters from the local hardware store. Maybe $12 total here. I have no way to describe it, but essentially you use a hole saw to make a hole in the side of the PVC adapter so you can compress the spring with the adapter, and reach in with a little magnet, or little needle-nose pliers, and remove the clip that retains the spring. These springs/clips are for the application pistons for each clutch unit. I did take numerous pictures, so I included a few. One of the tools needed to compress the spring could not find in a ready-made size, so I made my own tool out of some steel (remember, I'm a metal working hobby dude, so cutting and welding to achieve what I needed was no big deal).

Reassembly was straightforward, albeit tricky in spots. Some of the assemblies are heavy enough that you can't really just hold the oily end of a shaft to maneuver it and not risk slipping and dropping the assembly on the floor, with the resulting weeping and gnashing of teeth that'll likely occur. The ZF book shows a "special tool" which appears to just be a clamp arrangement on the end of the tower I shaft, so I made a similar item using a thick pad of rubber (protect the shaft), and clamped it to the shaft. Then I recruited a neighbor to help steady the trans case, and to help maneuver. If you are considering this DIY approach an option, consider buying the manual first (roughly $65 or so?) before ordering kits, and from that perhaps you will be able to decide if it's for you. Big clue - the manual discusses removing, say, a snap ring from an assembly, then has a picture of a dude in coveralls with a screwdriver prying out a snap ring. Seriously.

Ok, let me get to the point - what was going on? Slipping, jerking into gear, and launching into trans failsafe when the computer detected that slipping. What were my findings? All the clutches looked great except the "A" clutch, as suspected from the slipping symptoms. It was black whereas the other fiber disks were still brown (orig color). I replaced all of them anyway (duh). Seals and o-rings were not too bad, but it was obvious some o-rings had seen better days and seemed a bit brittle. Maybe heat? All were included in the kits I bought and therefore replaced. And the reason for all of this? An axial bearing between the nested "A" and "B" clutches was shot, the rollers being held together basically by its bearing races. It was obvious as soon as I saw it - and had I not parked it may have come apart at some point, turning the rest of the trans into a boat anchor. The axial bearing, while not load bearing specifically, allowed the input shaft and A/B clutches to move about - not a lot, but enough to cause a loss of clamping pressure due to bleed off of oil pressure. As the trans got warmer, the oil would thin some (my take on this), and lose whatever ability to clamp it may have started out with. And of course by slipping, the fiber plates for that clutch were clearly overheated at one point. Part cost was $35 from the same outfit I got the rebuild kits from. Except for the clutch that was slipping due to lack of clamping pressure, all other plates and wear surfaces looked excellent.

After reassy (and still using the Mobil's multiveh trans fluid), the car has been brilliant. Probably have about 2,500 miles on it since reassy, and I simply love the results. It’s been on at least 2 300 & 400 mile trips at 80+ Will it last another 100,000? Shrug. Who knows? I figure I'm way ahead of "Hey dealer, lemme pay retail for another tranny, will ya?" I also replaced all seals and springs in the valve body (although I didn't see anything amiss whilst in there.

How long did this take? Well, I removed the trans on a Saturday morning, and by that Sunday evening (and not working all hours) I had disassembled, cleaned, and reassembled the transmission to the point at which I then needed the new bearing in order to continue. Once the bearing arrived, reassembly and reinstallation was under one day – I started on a Saturday morning and I was tooling around town trying it out late that afternoon.

So, there was really nothing to this - read up and understand how an auto trans works to begin with, and if you have adequate space and are not intimidated with the prospect of taking it apart methodically and analytically, then here's some food for thought.

Civdiv99

Nice! Thanks for writing that up. I'm not going to attempt it, but it was interesting to read about it and see the pics.

You might make a few bux if you rented out those "special tools" to others who have trans problems!

This is a fantastic post. :thumbup:

It's clear this isn't the first time you've gotten your hands dirty on a job such as this, and the way you decribe it gives me confidence that an experienced DIY'er who appreciates the complexity of the job at hand can in fact make a success of a rebuild.

I too have the 4.4 with the 5HP24 trans. It doesn't need rebuilding at the moment as it's performing well after 110k miles. However if ever it should start to give trouble I would intend to perform a rebuild myself, and I've no doubt your post will be valuable. I'm going to save it locally so I don't loose it.

So thanks again, and wll done.

Great post. Good job.

For the reassembly process and the clutches that have specifications, I believe there are various thicknesses of snap rings available. Did you find that all were in spec? I ask because you didn't mention waiting for special snap rings, or does the overhaul kit contain an assortment of different thicknesses?

Congratulations, and nice to give back to the forum by telling the story.

This is the kind of post that is very dangerous for me. Makes me think things are easy, and I will just run down to the hardware store and get some PVC and pull my tranny. I prefer the posts where someone spends all day cussing at the OSV and finally gives up. Somehow that makes me feel better about myself.

BTW, great job and thank you for posting pictures and directions.

Wow! Planetary gears and clutch packs. Hey it's an automatic transmission. Great work! I can't believe you have not been flamed for using the so called wrong fluid. Nice to see the case cracked, no more difficult than any other auto trans. The rebuilds just cost for the BMW name.

Well, to answer the last 2 posts, the rebuild kit did not come with snap rings. - I'll confess to looking at how the manual showed and described compressing the clutch packs and taking various measurements, and decided not to worry about the specific clutch packs in that regard. I do have the tools to do so, but not the fancy jig they used to compress (preload) the clutch disks for measurement. I did mic the old plates and new plates for comparison. I expected an obvious difference in thickness, but aside from the pack that had been slipping, the thicknesses of individual plates was VERY close. So, I cheated on the clutch pack measurements, and apparently I got away with that. For those not specifically familiar with what we are discussing, the clutches "float" in their spaces. When fluid pressure is so directed, the fluid slides a "piston" (best term I can think of) against the clutch pack and by compressing it, locks up one part of the planetary gear sets. 2 of the clutches, "D" and "E" are actually keyed to the trans housing by the assemblies they fit into, and thus don't turn, but when engaged act as a brake for parts of the planetary sets. See attachment powerflow diagram. The cone springs to be removed in order to remove the pistons do not serve to compress the clutches, they are to disengage and pull the piston back when fluid pressure is removed. If you think about it, if you have a chamber full of pressurized fluid spinning at tranny speed, removing the pressure source is only part of the disengagement. Without the retract springs, the fluid's centrifugal (sp?) force in that chamber would prevent it's bleed off through the center shaft orifices and cause that pack to "drag." The clutch pack clearances referred to are to ensure the clearance is close enough to engage within spec, but loose enough so the released clutch doesn't have drag. Kinda like disk brake pads - close enough to apply and brake normally, but not so tight they drag on the disk when not braking.

One area I did NOT cheat on was end-play measurements with a dial indicator. Although I could not check certain end play measurements until the replacement part arrived, I did not want to bolt down the oil pump/bell housing assy and find later that clearance was below spec and risk binding when parts expanded, or even binding right off the bat. The spec is tight, but I was right in the middle on end play.

As far as the fluid goes, just telling folks what I did. I probably would have used the called for Esso stuff if was going to leave the tranny buttoned up for another 95K or whatever. Shrug. I'll point out that unlike the pretty green sticker advocating lifetime fill, the actual ZF trans manual does not take that position. This car is kind of a hobby/toy. I got it cheap because the dealer couldn't move it when gas prices were up, everything works, and it's fun. But I'm not going to put a lot of dough into it.

Congrats as I am having the same problems and thought of selling till I read your post. GJ

Great job on the write-up! I'm definitely dumping this out to a document for my folder of (how to fix shit) that I keep in my shed. Hopefully for my sake it won't be needed, but I'd rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it! By any chance, was your trans ever displaying the symptom of hard shift into lower gears during stop and go traffic? I swear, when I'm in heavy traffic and make the transition from brakes to a little bit of gas it feels like I'm getting rear-ended!

==Note to self: Purchase a Bentley manual, make nice with someone who has a real garage ==

E

Very impressive. Thank you taking the time to write this up.

civdiv99, is this light reflection we see inside the case or it is damaged?
I remember in the 80s, I had a TH350 rebuilted, and they had to use what they call a 'case saver'. I'm wondering if cases got dammaged when bearings or parts break.




http://www.xoutpost.com/attachments/...-freewheel.jpg

Impressive. Did u buy the rebuilt kit from the ZF website?

Great post and great work my man!

Respect to you sir.:bow:

To answer a few things above - the marks/reflection you see inside the case are machining marks from manufacture. See the long vertical slot? That's one of the keyways (there's an identical keyway directly opposite but tough to see) that the "D" & "E" clutch housing keys to. See attached pics of that assy with the corresponding "keys" mating to those slots. The area to which you refer has no spinning parts associated with it; the "D" & "E" clutches slide in and are a snug fit, but fixed in place.

I ordered my parts from CT Powertrain
http://www.ctpowertrain.com/ I see from the web page something is going on with the online ordering. Probably a good thing 'cause the website ordering was really clunky. I've called them a time or 2 when confirming the ZF part number for the bearing. The kit, etc. they sent was OEM ZF parts, so I guess that could be ordered about anywhere that sells the stuff. But, this is the only place that had the ZF manual I wanted right on the website for click & buy. Doesn't mean somewhere else doesn't, but that's how I ended up buying everything through them.

FYI: My original order confirmation -


CT POWERTRAIN PRODUCTS Items
1 ZF5HP24 BMW JAGUAR LAND ROVER RWD OEM ZF REPAIR MANUAL @ $65.00 = $65.00
1 ZF5HP24 OEM ZF REBUILD KIT BMW JAGUAR LAND ROVER 95-ON @ $365.00 = $365.00
1 ZF5HP24 OEM VALVE BODY KIT ZF LIFE 2 5HP24VBK BMW JAG @ $179.99 = $179.99
Sub-Total: $609.99
Shipping: $20.05 (UPS Ground)
Sales Tax: $0.00
CT POWERTRAIN PRODUCTS Total: $630.04

A few more pictures..............

civdiv99, You know how to make a splash. Great first Post - a real "Topper". Clearly, you are the envy of many of us A5S owners. In my case I just this last week changed my fluid & filter at 120K mi. Used the exact stuff as on the green sticker on the bottom of the pan. Took 5 Litres of Pentosin ATF1. May I assume you used the same stuff? From Triangle in Yakima (I live just 13 miles up the road from you)?

Now I have joined "The Lurch" Club. No more rabbit starts for me until I get this solved. Research suggests I need to buy the valve body kit & replace that stuff.
Then do the fluid & filter again. Should be a "Happy Tranny" after that... One would think.

I had zero issues before the fluid change. First time I have ever changed Tranny Fluid & Filter and had the tranny performance decrease immediatly afterward! Strange stuff.
Couldn't help but notice the HAHN plate frame on your X. I was talking with those folks about this very issue. Guess what their response was...disowned me. Said They do the same procedure (oil & filter only for a cool $500) and they have NEVER had lurching or slipping afterward. ( I did not swallow that one).

Hey Civdiv, may I buy you a cup of coffee sometime?

my smartfone email is [email protected]

Best regards,
SkidmarkX5

Excellent, extremely helpful and well written post. Thank you kindly again for the write-up. Makes me want to tear into mine just for the hell of it!

-Ben

Great thread.
 

:thumbup: Thanks for sharing that. It does't make me feel like tearing in to it but if the need arises this will be very helpful. I have never worked on an AT (I did once replace a bearing in a 4-speed trans of my '75 2002) but it seems a project one could tackle given time and space.

92k on the '03 4.4i and it runs strong but one never knows what is next.

Would you mind pointing out the bearing that failed (or posting a picture of it if it is not visible in one of the pics you posted before)?

Thanks.

LV

Couple of replies to the above - Sure, I don't mind posting that pic; just realize the reason I didn't until asked is it came out out-of-focus.

In the close up of the bearing, see what looks like "slots" or grooves in the bearing race? Well, that used to be a race. Now it's a thin film of a shell breaking apart in pieces. The other picture, looking into the trans case, is the bearing as seen after removing the bell-housing and then pulling out the "a" & "b" clutches as an assembly. However, although it looks ok in the picture (it's a 10 yr old cheapie camera), if you study the picture you can possibly make out that the rollers are not shiney and smooth anymore. In person, it was obvious as soon as I pulled the clutches. The race shown in the close up photo comes out with the clutches. So when back in, that race is what the rollers you see run on.

The rollers in that close up are visibly "tapered." They should have been nice cylindrical shape, not ground down at one end. They were worn to the point the race was about to disintegrate, and there was too much end play for the clutches just removed. Since the fluid pressurizes along shaft passages, the play reduces how much pressure can be maintained (pouring water into a bucket with a hole in it, so to speak). The part # in the ZF book (and other booklets avail w/internet search) was still a valid part number for ZF, so ordering was as easy as calling CT Powertrain and asking about ZF part # such & such. I was going to replace the other bearing you see in the close-up photo, but we couldn't cross the number I had with what the dude at CT could find. Since it was otherwise fine, I didn't go through any more steps. Had I been serious about replacing it, I'd have started trying other sources. When done, the shaft end play was right in the middle of the spec, so all good.

Hahn's is ok from my experience. I've bought there before, and have dealt with one specific guy, but I understand he's gone now. When I bought the car, I listed a number of items I wanted them to fix - one of which was a SuspensionInactive fault which they said was "just a reset." It turned out to be the compressor assy, but they never even hinted at wanting to back out of the agreement, discuss unforeseen circumstances, whatever - they replaced the assembly with a smile, and detailed the X5 while they were at it. I'd not hesitate to pick up another BMW from them. I've been keeping an aye out for a '07~'08 era 550i. But, once the economy took a dive and they lost Chrysler at about the same time, they were telling me in conversation that it was service that was keeping them afloat. They are spendy and interested in keeping it thataway. I don't take stuff there for repair - between CarQuest (over on 2nd or 3rd or something like that), rockauto.com (NEW front axle assy at only $54 was even cheaper than replacing the CV boot), or just O'Reilly's, I find what I need. To me, CarQuest is about the best kept secret for OEM parts - although not everything. Example: My Mass Air Meter went out. I confirmed this with a multi-meter and went shopping. Dealer price $429. Bavarian Autosport was about $379. CarQuest was $179. The dude told me it was an OEM part when I ordered it; I was skeptical. Whaddy know - a new Bosch, even had the BMW part number on it, etc. This wasn't the first car I bought from them, and I'd not hesitate to pick up another BMW from them. I've been keeping an aye out for a '07~'08 era 550i.

Going down the same road you did. It will take me a bit longer to get to the end. Sending you a PM to make contact.

SkidmarkX5,

I was going to replace my trans filter and oil this weekend. 115,000 on my 2002 4.4 and not a problem, maybe I should just wait and do the rebuild when the time comes. Don't want to temp fate.

Civdiv99,

Great post, I'm up for it but I can wait until the time comes. I love this kind of stuff, good job.

If it Aint Broke...
 

If your trans is working fine on the original fluid, my recomendation is: Just leave well enuf alone. I changed my fluid & filter and even the new filter gromet at 122K. Trans went South from that moment on. By 132K it was limping home in 3rd gear cuz 5th & 4th were gone. Never have I changed out old fluid and installed new fluid & filter and had it fail immediatly thereafter. :wtf:
No question the correct components used & procedure by the book. No matter. These ZF trannys are very atypical.

I hooked up with "civdiv". He has his poop in a scoop on the how-to.

In fact I am ordering my rebuild kit & Shop Manual this Friday. Going to be one of my Spring projects. (as that ol' redneck saying goes, " I always wanted to fix me a Transmission!"). :thumbup:

Congratulations on your excellent write-up civdiv99.

I’ve rebuilt around a dozen Range Rover 5HP24s in the past few months which had exactly this same “bearing then O-ring” failure http://forum.landrovernet.com/showthread.php/189983-ZF-5HP24-teardown and it looks as though it will become a common problem on the 4.4i & 4.6is E53 too as their mileages rack up.

The axial needle roller bearing which wears & fails only sees a combination of load and relative speed in gears 1, 2 & 3 so I suspect it will be vehicles that have worked hard in these gears throughout the vehicle’s lifetime which will suffer this particular failure (towing, ‘sporty’ driving, hilly terrain, etc.). Vehicles that spend their lives predominantly cruising up and down the motorway are likely to be safe from this particular failure.

Please forgive me if I missed it, but reading through your excellent posts I notice that you didn’t make specific reference to the condition of the O-ring which seals the input shaft to the B-clutch drum so I think it’s worth pointing out that it’s the failure of this O-ring which allows the A-clutch pressure to bleed to tank (& therefore drive is lost in gears 1 to 4) and that the O-ring fails because the axial bearing wear allows the input shaft and B-clutch drum to separate under load (as you stated). Perhaps you could confirm that this O-ring had failed in your case?

http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/i...ringfailed.jpg

http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/i...ingFailure.jpg

It’s easy to identify if a 5HP24 has this specific problem when it’s sat on a bench, even before stripping it, by grabbing the input shaft and trying to move it axially. The correct endfloat is 0.2 to 0.4mm. If the axial bearing has worn/failed you will be able to move the shaft by 1-2 mm.

Phil

P.S. Regarding the ‘fancy jig’ for setting up the clutch plate clearances, I simply use a 20.4kg weight (i.e. 200N) to preload the wavy plate which has a radial slot cut in it to allow the thickness measurements to be taken

http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/i...Clearances.jpg

Mine was showing problems before it went south. But it seems the slipping comes shortly after changing the fluid, I think most of these cases the transmission is already nearing failure and the fluid change pushses it over the edge

I am going at it an hour a day to retain my sanity, undid the exhaust last night after repeatedly spraying the bolts on Sunday. Tonight comes taking it down and removing the swaybar. Also hoping to remove the fr. drive shaft and disconnect the rear one. Might take some pics as I go along but most of this is doucmented. Perhaps the actual disassembly is not documented that well and I might post some pics in a separate thread of the D/A and re-assembly.

RRPhil, Thanks for that heads-up. Any idea if the Torque-converter is also prone to failure or should I replace as a precaution?

Unlike the torque converter in the GM 5L40-E ‘box (3.0l M57 engine) the unit in the 5HP24 doesn’t have a particular reputation for failure. Having said that, you do occasionally see posts from owners with driveline vibration issues around 1500rpm which result from a lock-up clutch fault when it’s operating in its ‘continuous slip’ mode.

I always get my torque converters re-manufactured anyway because I often don’t know the history of the transmission I’m rebuilding - or even what fluid is in it. At around 200GBP I think it’s worth it (compared with the hassle of replacing it at a later date) – especially as the last thing you want to do is to recontaminate your new transmission fluid following the rebuild (it’s impossible to get all the old fluid out of the torque converter without unwelding it). The places I use turn the converter around in two days i.e. they re-manufacture your own unit and return it to you.

I would strongly recommend that you get your torque converter re-manufactured while it’s out of the vehicle. I believe that Transtar, Beltsville Transtar Industries, Inc. - Torque Converters are the ‘official’ ZF car transmission part distributors for Maryland, so it may be worth getting a quote from them?

Phil

Phil - you have an awesome amount of knowledge, thanks for sharing with us !

I have exactly that problem. Not all the time though. It seems to happen most often when accelerating gently up a slight incline at just the right speed. There's one particular roundabout on a hill on my route home from work that often triggers it. I assume the only fix is a new / recon converter ?

I can't afford to get the 'box rebuilt right now, and obviously the labour to change just the torque converter is high enough that it seems silly to do that and not look at the 'box at the same time. I'll have to put up with the judder for now.

In your experience, is this fault normally accompanied by another fault in the gearbox ? My gearbox seems to work OK <touch wood> at the moment.

In my experience it’s most likely to be an issue with the hardware inside the converter itself and much less likely to be related to the hydraulic control system that feeds it from within the main transmission. For info., as you’re in the UK, I use either of these places for my converter re-manufacturing :

http://www.jpat.co.uk/torque_converter_reman.html

http://www.sussexautos.co.uk/torque-converters.php


Incidentally, if anyone here in the UK has an ’01-‘03MY 4.6is E53 with a poorly 5HP24 transmission, and can get it out of the vehicle, I’d be happy to repair your transmission for free (you just pay for the parts & shipping – typically totals around £800 including a re-manufactured torque converter and 11 litres of LT71141) as I’ve never yet had the opportunity to rebuild an ‘034’ model of the 5HP24 – the daddy of them all. There are 27 different variants of the 5HP24 in total, by the way - fascinating!:yawn:

Phil

Ok, the exhaust and heat shields are off. The sway is disconnected but I can't slide it out, what am I missing, anyone done this?

Second problem, there is an electrical plug just in front of the AT oil pan and I don't see how I can disconnect it? Please give me hint or a pic how it parts.

Third, I took the bolts out of the front flex disk. Yet I can't get the drive shaft out, what keeps it in place, or can it only come out when the TC is removed?

Last question, I presume the oil lines have to be disconnected completed both at the cooler and the AT?

Thanks, civdiv, for the very helpful story. (I'm not sure I could see myself driving up wood ramps to perch on wood pilings, but really nice to see that such a frontiersman approach works!)

Can you share the source for your rebuild kit and trans bearing? (Or suggest a definitive Google search string?)

The official ZF overhaul kit for the 5HP24 is part no. 1058 298 022. Note that this is the basic kit and only contains gaskets & seals i.e. no clutch plates, etc.

http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/i...1058298022.jpg

The axial bearing which fails is ZF part no. 1058 202 016 :

http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/i...1058202016.jpg

The attached file shows a list of the North American distributors of ZF passenger car transmission parts.

Phil

Hey, great write up, and very informative. You may have read in my earlier posts that the cast clutch housing (magnesium, I believe) is an identified weak point and the cause of many catastropic transmission failures. It cracks and then the troubles begin, often major. For a time, it was nearly impossible to find a replacement due to the high demand for them. Your experience confirms that a $3K rebuild/exchange is probably about right (and far less than a BMW dealer's $7-8K) considering labor hours for in/out, and rebuilding, plus parts and amortizing special tools. I'm not inclined to tackle this job, but having the info is still of interest and valuable. Thanks for taking the time to document this. I'm most appreciative.

Do you have any more information about the cast (magnesium) clutch housing which cracks?

Obviously the problems ZF had with the input shaft/A-clutch drum in the 5HP24 is very well known & documented but you may be referring to something else?

http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/i...reofgroove.jpg

Since ZF introduced the radial swages to stiffen the drum in November 2000 at transmission serial number 355863 I’ve never seen or read about a single failure of this component.

http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/i.../LaterDrum.jpg

Phil

Thanks. Have been off in work-mode for a couple of months. Have some downtime to read through some posts. I don't recall specifically regarding that o-ring. I replaced all of them in any case. Nailed it right on the head with the end-play. Not being familiar with what I was looking for upon disassy, I didn't take preliminary measurements. Once I saw that bearing, it all became clear.

JohnI - I used the below when I ordered my parts.

I ordered my parts from CT Powertrain
CT POWERTRAIN PRODUCTS Home Page

FYI: My original order confirmation -

CT POWERTRAIN PRODUCTS Items
1 ZF5HP24 BMW JAGUAR LAND ROVER RWD OEM ZF REPAIR MANUAL @ $65.00 = $65.00
1 ZF5HP24 OEM ZF REBUILD KIT BMW JAGUAR LAND ROVER 95-ON @ $365.00 = $365.00
1 ZF5HP24 OEM VALVE BODY KIT ZF LIFE 2 5HP24VBK BMW JAG @ $179.99 = $179.99
Sub-Total: $609.99
Shipping: $20.05 (UPS Ground)
Sales Tax: $0.00
CT POWERTRAIN PRODUCTS Total: $630.04

RRPhil:

Yes, that's the part. I had not seen any published info on it when I had my problem. I ended up going to the ZF Authorized repair shop in Burlingame, CA (near SF). A long-time technician there was very familiar with the problem at the time (July '07). The part would crack on transmissions with anything from 4,000 to 100,000+ miles on them. My 2002 was made well after 2000, and I've had correspondence from dozens of others who've had the same problem, many with newer models. The technician said it also impacted other vehicles using this same transmission, including Mercedes, Audi, Jaguar, and possibly others (there's a Jaguar site devoted to "the surge" as the symptom was called). I should have photographed the replacement part and the broken one, but I didn't. I was able to get a replacement by calling in some favors from my Detroit area automotive friends who were able to get me a part when the ZF shop said they were on "Global backorder by ZF" for an undetermined period of time (many weeks was their guess at the time). So, I don't think the update you're noting has cured the problem if that was implemented in 2000. Even the ZF tech said he was aware of SEVERAL updates but still saw problems, and was not optimistic that I wouldn't experience this problem again if I kept the vehicle. So far, so good though, but I admit that I now "baby" it.

Just looked up my receipt. The part number of the A-drum was #1058-270-040, if that helps identify it? It's listed separately, as I supplied it to them.

Lookinrtrouble...

That "feels like you got rear-ended" feeling is a very likely sign of the cracked housing developing. Trust me, it won't get getter and will likely get worse, and COULD result in a very ugly situation with tranny fluid under your wheels. Recommend you either fix it or get it checked. And if so, file a safety complaint with NHTSA at Home | National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA).

I'm having the some problems with the jerky transmission, switch gear and when coming to a slow roll stop, i have a e53 4.6is 2003 will this fix work wit my x5....

It is not always the A drum. I had the same symptoms as yours plus a grinding/whining noise. Mine was actually the torque converter.

How would I go about finding out what's the real problem, I don't know if it's the the torque converter of something else, all I know is that the jerking and rear ended is driven me knots I had change the tran filter and oil, updated the tran program but the rear Ender is still there.....

Very hard to know exactly what is wrong and not very usefull anyway. Unless you have low mileage, you want to rebuild the Torq Conv if you take the trans off. If the Torq conv. is the culprit you still want to do a cleanup and overhaul on the trans. If the torq conv is ok, then you know something is wrong in the trans but you still would want a refresh on the torq conv. So, it is 6 of one or half a dozen of the other, either way you need the work done.

Ofcourse I'd recommend to DIY as I have seen reports of X5 coming back from R&R at transmission shops and still having issues whereas the guys on here who DIY seem to come out ok..... (I did mine and am very happy) YMMV :-)

If you have tried changing the fluid and filter, and updating the software, you have done all the easy stuff. There is no single cause of transmission shifting problems. People all want to find the silver bullet, but there simply isn't one. It could be in the torque converter, the valve body, the solenoids, the wiring harness with the temperature sensor, the electronics, etc. These are complex transmissions, and small issues can cause these sorts of problems.

If you can't live with it the next step is to have the transmission overhauled.

Ok the simtems could be lot, so the best bet is to just, have the transmission overhauled.!!

Have anyone completely had transmission overhauled, and did it fix the rear ended problems, I don't want to get this done just to have the some problem arose again, So have anyone had this done, which fix the problems

i did :)
http://www.xoutpost.com/bmw-sav-foru...-1st-time.html

so far so good!! no more "trans fail safe" message, jerking(rear ended), slipping and whistling/whinning sound.

That sounds great, I would like the same no problem ride for my x5 so basically what I need to change could you list them for me, I cannot do the work myself I don't have the tools or space for a job like that,

Try a dealer diagnosis?
 

The only sure way to know what's wrong it to take it apart and examine in. But, the dealer's computer (or perhaps an independent shop with the right equipment), can potentially detect clutch slippage electronically, which might steer you to specific issues. In any case, you got a tranny problem which is likely going to require taking it out. Trust me, it won't get better on its own! Having looked into this myself, a $3K rebuild is likely your least expensive option.

And thus far, Knock on wood, mine is still running 55K miles later.

Read the threads by Civdiv, RDM and mine.

I would recommend to get:
AT overhaul kit
Friction disk set
Valve body overhaul kit
Replace all bearings (at minimum output bearing and radial A/B)

Remanufacture the torq converter while the AT is out.

Ok thx, overhauling the tranny that's what I'll do, I'll let you know how it turns out