Xoutpost.com - Last ditch effort to eliminate dreaded brake 'chudder"

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- - Last ditch effort to eliminate dreaded brake 'chudder" (https://xoutpost.com/bmw-sav-forums/x5-e53-forum/81067-last-ditch-effort-eliminate-dreaded-brake-chudder.html)

Any chance that something is worn out in the power steering box? Any one go down that road?

Quote:

Originally Posted by TurnAround (Post 822622)

Not sure I understand. I don't drive in the city with my foot hovered over the pedal, and braking slightly and often, if that is what is meant. I'm generally a late braker. But.. you are mentioning another behavior that I do have; Once I'm done braking med to hard-ish and come to a stop, I let off all but the minimum pressure needed to keep the car from moving. I developed this habit after reading on forums that hard braking (that's me) followed by hard on pedal at a stop, can 'stick' the pad to the rotor from the heat not having anywhere to escape, and when you finally let off you 'pop' some of the brake pad material off on to the rotor face... IOW.. leave an uneven deposit. You're saying mash harder? Even after braking hard (lots of heat)?

Nope. If you're braking late then what I described does not apply. From my experience, the folks complaining of brake judder (that dont have worn out bushings/ball joints) usually brake gently and ride the pedal for a long period of time. Then, once stopped, they mash the pedal down hard like the car is going to bolt away. This behavior is notorious for hotspotting the rotors.

I brake late and hard, then come off the brakes and roll till I need to stop. To stop, I use minimal pedal pressure to keep the car stopped till it's time to move again.

It's likely you've got a busted balljoint if your mechanic has replaced the thrust arm bushings and torqued them with the car weight on them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by E55AMG2 (Post 822661)

I brake late and hard, then come off the brakes and roll till I need to stop. To stop, I use minimal pedal pressure to keep the car stopped till it's time to move again.

That's me too. That's exactly how I brake. And, if I'm performance driving for fun and for whatever reason am faced with a full stop situation, I've even used the hand brake, once at the full stop, so that the rotor brakes had zero contact and could cool.

Thanks for the info. It sounds like I need to take the car in again and go through it with him (under the car).

Quote:

Originally Posted by TurnAround (Post 822618)

I really like and trust my indi mechanic. Of course, there's no way to tell for sure if he's just shining me on, but he assured me that he inspected and then torque tested all the suspension components and couldn't find any significant wear... except in those front struts. I guess I could take it back.

Since they were just replaced, its too late to go with the heavy duty rubber bushings. Although that's a great find. I'll keep that in mind... as I had hoped to keep this car for another 8-10 years.

I just seems to me that slotted and cross drilled rotors would introduce enough surface differentiation in the rotor that the pads would be less likely to 'dominate' with uneven deposits. I realize it wouldn't 'clean them', but still, there'd be less surface area to develop deposits on, right??

I wasn't promoting the HD bushings as much as showing how many other people had very similar symptoms due to looseness in the suspension. Personally, I would use OE bushings, but I am sure the HD would work fine.

The suspension holds the wheel in position, and a small deposit variation on the rotor (which only takes a few months to form) sets off the vibration when braking at highway speeds. Unless you have a heavily pulsing pedal at parking lot speeds, I would just focus on the suspension a lot more than on the brakes. That said, braking hard and late isn't easy on the brakes. You can get them hot enough that any pad contact while stopped can lead to more and uneven pad deposition. Given that driving style, a rotor that gets hotter faster because it has less thermal mass (ie a drilled and/or slotted one) is a step in the wrong direction. I would use OE rotors and whatever pad works for you. I would also look at the control arms, and would likely replace them just to see if it helped.

HD and OE are the same, more solid bushing IIRC. The HD is in reference to the 5/7 series bushing which are primarily liquid filled.

Quote:

Originally Posted by E55AMG2 (Post 822671)

HD and OE are the same, more solid bushing IIRC. The HD is in reference to the 5/7 series bushing which are primarily liquid filled.

I understood that the HD were solid, and made by Meyle, as compared to the OE E53 liquid-filled bushing.

I thought the OEs are also solid and that only the 540/M5/E38 bushings are liquid filled. If you cross reference the p/n's, the X5s are unique to the X5 and the others are shared across the E38/9 platform. Meyle is the OE IIRC (kinda like Lemforder for the control arms and MANN for the Oil Filters) of all of these bushings.

I'll go with Weasel (from the link I included in post#2):

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weasel

So about a week or so ago the drivers side thrust arm bushing on my X5 blew out its fluid, thus causing the shake when braking etc. we all know about with the thrust arm bushings. Seeing everyone who went with polyurethane bushings almost immediately post a thread trying to isolate the new shimmy they have and say it feels kinda rough over bumps now comparatively, I decided to go with the Meyle heavy duty bushings which are the same design as OEM, but solid rubber vs the fluid filled. I can say these are stiffer and more sporty feeling than the OEM design, feel more connection to the road... but without the overly harsh feel of the solid polyurethane bushings.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TurnAround (Post 822439)

I've been living the nightmare of the dreaded X5 brake 'chudder' steering wheel shakes for about 4 or 5 years now. I feel like I've tried everything.

Its caused by uneven brake deposits on the rotors and the pads. Deposits are normal, and good. You want the brake pad material to transfer into the cast iron rotors. That's brake bedding. But, this layer has to be even, otherwise you have a 'grab' / 'slip' / 'grab / 'slip' chaos pattern that sets up a vibration with the brakes that transfers to the steering wheel. Replace the pads, massively rebed them in until smoking, or sand them down.. voila.. the chudder is gone for 2 months. .. until the uneven deposits come back. All cars get uneven deposits. Its the darned suspension design of the 5 series. I have two Z3's, both with 'no dust' pads and I've never had a single problem. The suspension arms are shaped differently and come in from more of a side angle. Uneven deposits don't cause vibrations.

On the X I've had the front strut arms replaced (that replaces both sets of front bushings). Made a 15% improvement. Still violent steering wheel shake when braking above 55mph.

I've replaced the rotors, and replaced the Centric Posi-Quiet ceramic pads (near zero dust.. is the attraction to these pads) with Stop Tech Street Performance pads to introduce some bite to clean off the un-even deposits. Same pattern. All great for 3 months, then the F-ing chudder is back! AND.. my wheels are completely covered in brake dust. Worse than factory pads.

I've made the following decision; I'm replacing the rotors one last time, but I'll use slotted and cross drilled in the hopes that it will introduce some 'anti-chaos' pattern for the brake pads. I'm going back to low dust pads. If necessary, I'll replace them once a year.

Another $400 and a weekend lost.

I'm so tired of this, but I don't know what else to do. I love my X5, but I hate the fucking brakes. Blackened trashed brake dusted wheels.. after only 5 days of driving, is unacceptable. But so is massive steering wheel vibration every time I brake above 55.

Any last ditch suggestion welcome.

I've NEVER seen this problem with the stock rotors and pads. I install them weekly on customer cars without complaint. Yes, they do dust heavily but it's part of the design. The pads are a fairly soft compound which gives the best combination of cold bite and all around performance. The dusting is just part of it.

The idea of the front wheels being "blackened" after 5 days seems a little extreme but I have no idea what type of driving your doing. My 4.6is with roughly 13" rotors and massive calipers takes a couple weeks to really see the wheels darkenening but I simply clean them once a week to avoid this.

I've rarely had good luck with aftermarket pad/ rotor setups on BMW's between squealing, vibrations and erratic performance. If your sure the front end is right and tight I would pony up, get some factor Zinc coated rotors and Pagid pads and just deal with the dusting. I'd much rather have to clean my wheels more often if it meant forgoing the massive vibrations.

-Ben

Quote:

Originally Posted by imola38 (Post 822730)

The idea of the front wheels being "blackened" after 5 days seems a little extreme but I have no idea what type of driving your doing. My 4.6is with roughly 13" rotors and massive calipers takes a couple weeks to really see the wheels darkenening but I simply clean them once a week to avoid this.

I've rarely had good luck with aftermarket pad/ rotor setups on BMW's between squealing, vibrations and erratic performance.

You're right. I was at the end of my rope when I wrote that. "Black" is too strong. But, yes.. they are medium gray to be sure (normally silber). One thing to factor in is that I've noticed that most of the members on the board are not from the northwest. Seattle gets the most rain in the US, Portland 2nd, and Eugene third. I live in Eugene. It rains every day or so. The rain / brake dust combo is three times darker and nastier than just new dust on newly cleaned wheels.

I've put a couple different brands of rotors and pads on both Z3's and I've never had any problems. I know a half dozen BMW owners here in town with a variety of cars.. Z3, Z4, 3, 5, 7. Some of them use non OEM rotors and pads and None of them are having issues. The predominant complaints seem to be coming from X5 owners.

Its sounding like the consensus for the board seem to be to take the X back in and go through it with the mechanic and make a plan for replacing a series of parts one at a time until the culprit is found.

THanks for all the input. I appreciate the help!