My X is a pig
 

Just saw my 'Check engine oil level' light came one when shutting down.
So checked the dipstick and its barely any there. "kick the tires and swears".
The dealer changed the oil at 72k and now at 78k, noted it consumed 2 quarts of oil in 6k miles :yikes:

Dealer refilled it and now wants to check again in a month or so, no leaks are to be found and no smoke, engine is running great... Dealer said 1 to 2 quarts every 6 to 8 k miles are normal for the 4.4i engine :wow: ... is this normal??

I wouldn't call that amount of oil use abnormal over 6000 to 8000 miles. Don't rely on the sensor, check the oil level yourself regularly.

:iagree: and keep a log of when you added oil.

Not showing on the dipstick doesn't mean empty, it just means not at the correct level. There are 8 or so quarts in the engine.

It may not have been filled at the last oil change, which is why you need to establish actual oil consumption by logging it.

If you like to reduce this oil consumption, warm up the engine for about a min or two before you start driving…
When the engine is revving high, DON’T drive. Wait until the rev drops to the normal idle rpm. After the rpm dropped and you start driving, don’t step on the gas pedal until the engine is quite warm.

Try it for the next 6,000 miles and let me know.

Idling an engine with no load won't warm it significantly, so idling to try and warm it up results in an extended warm-up cycle, and increased engine wear. As soon as the idle speed is stable, usually 10 seconds or so, drive off, and keep the revs moderate until the engine is warm.

And, the dlr may have done the nearly famous short fill oil change, as in 5 or 6 qts, not the full fill. Agree with all that 2 qts in 6k miles is possible, and esp if the oil change wasn't to full fill.
GL, mD

Yep, according to BMW 1quart/750 miles is within normal spec of oil consumption. I read/heard that from Roundel BMW CCA magazine tech talk and part-dept guy at dealer. IMHO, if BMWNA can't explain why just say it's OK, case close.

thanks for all the input here, this is why I love this forum!
I will keep an eye for the next 6k miles or so and monitor the oil consumption.
what a great piece of engineering!

I really don’t think one or two min of idling will result in any extra engine wear.

And

I have been doing this for a very long time and I never had to add oil between oil changes to any of my BMWs.

Well, it will. It wastes fuel, and it won't necessarily cause your engine to fail, but it is wearing the engine without any benefit. You can get away with it more in LA, but try doing it in colder weather, like the OP has. It is well documented, has been true since we got multi-grade oils decades ago, and is also explained in your owner's manual.

Despite all the advancement in technology and development of syntactic materials, the physics of oil, metal, and materials in general remains the same. Every single part in your engine is designed to work within a certain temperature. When the engine is cold or too hot it doesn’t work at its optimum. When the engine is cold the last thing you need is putting external load on it (i.e. 5000+lb weight of the car). if you reside in colder areas I think it is even more important to warm up the engine so it can get to its working spec (i.e. alloy expansion)
On a different note the automakers are mandated by governments and environmental agencies to deter end users from cold idling. When engine is running cold it emits more pollution because it is not working within its designed working temperature. Automakers and environmental agencies want car owners to shorten the warm up time by driving right away. Thus, limiting emission of pollution. But it doesn’t necessary a good thing for your engine mechanical.
Just out of curiosity, how often and how much oil you add to your engine?

I agree that engines wear faster when they are cold, for the reasons you state. The issue is that idling an engine doesn't significantly warm it up.=, since the engine isn't under any load. What it ends up doing is extending the time it takes for the engine to reach operating temperature. The cumulative wear from that extended warm-up cycle is greater than the cumulative wear from a shorter warm-up cycle. It is important not to rev the engine highly until it is warm. But adding moderate load is good for the engine because of the reduced warm-up time. The tests proving this go back three decades, and I have previously posted links to independent tests from the Society of Automotive Engineers and others, not influenced by government policies on pollution, etc.

Have you considered that when you eventually start to drive, you put all the load of the vehicle on the hubs, CV joints, transfer case, and transmission, none of where were warmed up in any way by idling the engine? They are subject to the same laws of tribology that apply to the engine.

With my X5, I added a litre of oil about every 5000 km. I think it was higher due to the weight of the vehicle (it was a 3.0) and the engine worked harder in that vehicle. I have had three other six cylinder BMW engines in recent years, and it is rare that I ever add oil to any of them. They are usually good for the full change interval, but when it goes out to a 20,000 or 24,000 km change interval, possibly one additional litre during each cycle.

If you believe that idling an engine to warm it up reduces oil consumption, can you provide some independent corroboration from controlled tests? Anything from SAE, ASME, or ASTM? I would be interested to read those tests.

Same here, lots of cars (5 BMWs) over the last 35 years. Never had an engine problem due to lubrication or warm-up. That includes several years in -40C to -50C environments.

So to paraphrase your summary, you believe that your undocumented result based on a sample of one in an uncontrolled test speaks louder than any well documented results from 30+ years of testing by engine and lubrication companies?

It takes much longer to heat a coolant filled engine block than it does to heat a much smaller piston. The piston is part of the combustion chamber and heats up fairly fast and as a result expands fairly quickly. The average working temperature at the top of a piston is about 600 degrees Fahrenheit while the coolant running through the engine is about 190 degrees Fahrenheit. (The engine block working temperature is much lower than that for the pistons) This is why the manufacturers design the pistons to have a loose fit within the cylinder when cold thereby allowing a tighter fit at operating temperatures.

Now having said that, what I am suggesting is allowing the engine to idle for a min or two (I didn’t say warm up your car for 5 or 10 mins) to provide better lubrication and tighter clearances (1-2 min is enough time for the pistons to expand). Tighter clearances mean less oil consumption.


The idea behind idling for a min or two is not to warm up the oil, coolant, the engine block, CV joints, transfer case, or the transmission. It is to get the combustion chamber close to it working temp. (Remember, the combustion chamber (piston part of it) in your engine sees about 250-300 combustions each min at idle rpm.) That’s why it is imperative to drive slowly with no excessive load on the car until every component has reached its working temperature.

Since the topic is oil consumption, shouldn't the rings be more important than the piston itself?

I just can't see that it matters. These are cast pistons, not forged. They are made precisely enough that they are not built loose. These are not like air-cooled motorcycle engines, for example, where piston clearance is critical. I also don't see why you recommend driving slowly. Piston speed and engine load are not functions of vehicle speed. It is a good idea to drive moderately.

What it comes down to is that if you idle the engine with no load, you are extending the duration of the warm-up cycle. 20 minutes of operation with a cold engine is always worse than 10 minutes of operation with a cold engine. And you can cut the warm-up time (those times are just examples) by ensuring there is a moderate load on the engine. That is what all the studies say. Do you have some data that refutes that?

Cast or forged the coefficient of expansion for the material that is used won’t change. Either way, the piston has to have enough room for its expansion due to rise of temperature (from ±30 degree to over 600 degree). The engine is better off to have lower RPM (idle rpm of 800-1,200) than being driven moderately with the rpm of 2,000 or more during this period.

What I meant by driving slowly is to avoid pressing the gas pedal too far down and keeping the rpm low. You can call it driving moderately I call it slow because it is slower acceleration that usual.


By the way, piston speed and engine load are functions of vehicle speed and vice versa. When a car with an automatic transmission is accelerating and increasing its speed the engine rpm increases so does the piston speed and the load on the engine. In the case of a manual transmission, whether accelerating or downshifting the engine RPM increases so does the piston speed and the load on the engine. Staying in the gear keeps the rpm high as well.

You are assuming similar construction, when in fact the forged piston will have more mass due to the difficulty of machining it. You are also ignoring the effects of silicon which stabilizes the alloys dimensionally. Different alloys are used with each method of manufacturing (due to brittleness). So yes, the coefficient of expansion will change. That is why forged pistons had larger clearances, historically.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ash977 The engine is better off to have lower RPM (idle rpm of 800-1,200) than being driven moderately with the rpm of 2,000 or more during this period.

Source?

That is accelerating slowly, not driving slowly. What you want to do is limit the load on the engine, and the rpm. For an engine that goes to 6000 rpm, 2000 seems pretty moderate to me. But if you don't put any load on it it will take a very long time to warm up.

They are not direct functions. Load relates more to acceleration than vehicle speed. At steady cruising speeds, there is very little load on your engine. And driving down a hill pretty much proves that they are not direct functions.

While all the above is interesting, the original point was that it comes down to reducing or extending the duration of the warm-up cycle. If you leave your vehicle idling and parked, how long will it take to come to full operating temperature? Now drive it moderately and see the difference.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JCL (Post 827371) You are assuming similar construction, when in fact the forged piston will have more mass due to the difficulty of machining it. You are also ignoring the effects of silicon which stabilizes the alloys dimensionally. Different alloys are used with each method of manufacturing (due to brittleness). So yes, the coefficient of expansion will change. That is why forged pistons had larger clearances, historically.

Regardless of forged or cast, the piston expands when its temperature increases. I agree that forged pistons have larger clearance but cast pistons expand too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JCL (Post 827371) That is accelerating slowly, not driving slowly. What you want to do is limit the load on the engine, and the rpm. For an engine that goes to 6000 rpm, 2000 seems pretty moderate to me. But if you don't put any load on it it will take a very long time to warm up.

Driving slowly or accelerating slowly, the idea is to limit the load on the engine. As long as the vehicle is moving its 5000+lb weight it doesn’t take much to warm up. Your “very long time” is about 5 min.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JCL (Post 827371) They are not direct functions. Load relates more to acceleration than vehicle speed. At steady cruising speeds, there is very little load on your engine. And driving down a hill pretty much proves that they are not direct functions.

They are NOT one to one ratio but they are function of each other.
Maintaining a constant speed on a flat road is a load on the engine (if the engine doesn’t work the car will finally come to stop due to various frictions). Pulling and pushing a mass with a car is a load on its engine. Acceleration is also a load on the engine. Just because the magnitude of it varies and one is smaller than the other one it doesn’t mean it is not a load. In any event, we are talking about piston speed and the speed of the car. As the engine rpm increase so does the piston speed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JCL (Post 827371) While all the above is interesting, the original point was that it comes down to reducing or extending the duration of the warm-up cycle. If you leave your vehicle idling and parked, how long will it take to come to full operating temperature? Now drive it moderately and see the difference.

The point that is not getting across is I never said you reach operating temperature if you idle for one or two mins. what I said is one to two min idling will reduce/eliminate need to add oil drastically. I suggest you try what I recommended ten posts ago for few thousand miles (whatever mileage it took you to add oil to the engine in the past) and see if you can eliminate or reduce adding oil to your engine. I have recommended this to at least four BMW owners and all four of them had a positive result.

But as I said above, I don't regularly add oil to my current vehicles. They go the full change cycle, or near to it, without make-up oil. I will go a two-year change service cycle with the X3 without any make-up oil. And without any idling to warm up the pistons, either. So could it be that maybe idling to achieve better-fitting pistons is not directly related to oil consumption?

How about those Canucks? Great game last night, eh?

Off Topic
 

Incredible amount of build-up to it. We are six blocks from the rink, and about the same from the outdoor celebration plaza. Media everywhere. We walked by a few hours before, and saw the green men party on the street.

I thought the Canucks came out strong, played about even with the Bruins for the rest of the first, and all of the second period, and then took it to them in the third. Boston looked tired by then. Vancouver is a very strong third period team, and they just kept coming. The shots were even, but the scoring opportunities were very one-sided for the Canucks. With that goaltending, either their hard work was going to pay off, or a lucky bounce was going to take it for either team.

We found out Chara can be checked, even if it put Hamhuis in the dressing room in doing it (the cross-check to the head may have been part of that) Bergeron learned that if you put your finger in someone else's mouth he may or may not bite it (who knows what happened?). Vancouver showed that they have depth on the third line. The hits were pretty even, both teams are physical. The refs blew far too many penalties. And TT was amazing.

I am not sure if I am reading this right but the fully syntactic oil is meant to be changed 15,000 miles or one year whatever comes first. I don’t think keeping the same oil for two years is a good idea.

Well, I know quite a bit of people who don’t add oil to their engine after they started idling for a min or two. We will see if “hambone1983” decides to try what I recommended and if it makes any difference in his case.

The full synthetic oil is meant to be changed based upon condition monitoring. 15,000 miles/24,000 km is like a starting point for the algoriths, but isn't a requirement. My vehicle showed 28,000 km last time but I changed it early. I think two years is long enough. There is no one year limit.

Back when the X5 was introduced, BMWNA (only in the US) had a policy of doing a complimentary annual oil change for low mileage vehicles, under their pre-paid maintenance plan. That was only in the US, and it was a marketing ploy. That policy was officially cancelled via BMW service bulletins some time back. Those bulletins are posted on this site if you search.

Not if I can possibly help it. Family does. Last time I waited in the lodge at the Whistler mid station with a glass of red wine and read.

Good stuff JCL always a pleasure to read your posts.

One note to add from the car stuff 101 textbook.... the engine isn't ready to beat on when you feel hot air from the heater vents, or when the coolant needle goes to 12 'o clock, or when the cool 4.6 cluster amber lights on the tacho disappear. Only after the oil is up to temp should we apply full military power to the right pedal.

Sounds basic, but in the interest of the topic I just wanted to throw it out there for someone that might not yet be aware.

Thanks.

Fully agree with you on the temperature issue. Oil temperature is most critical. Don't trust the coolant temperature indicator at all (it is a stretch to call it a gauge) since it is electronically buffered and as soon as coolant reaches a setpoint it goes right to 12 oclock.

If I had to choose between an engine designer/manufacturer and their recommendation, or the recommendation of a company selling oil, I'd go with the engine manufacturer. Especially when the engine company holds the risks of both the lease residual value, and the warranty/extended warranty fund. I have used Castrol Syntec, but I usually use the BMW 5w-30 made by Castrol, which isn't Syntec. I note that Mobil I now recommends following the manufacturer's change recommendations, up to 15,000 miles, unlike Castrol which is still pushing the 4000 - 6000 mile intervals that the motor oil industry has been promoting for years (although to be fair, they used to promote 3000 mile intervals).

For what it's worth: I traded in a 2000 BMW M5 for my 2006 BMW 4.4i X5. My M5 would need a quart of oil every 500 miles or so. My X5, thankfully, requires NO oil between oil changes. I love not having to think about it.

I do miss my M5, though.

depends on how you floor the accelarator, my friend! i would think that running your X like a race car will burn the oil out much faster, no?

I haven't owned an M5, but I have read a lot about oil consumption with M5 engines. I think the different manufacturing process, and use of break-in oil, make break-in more critical for long-term oil consumption. The 10w-60 oil is a difference as well. All of the above makes the M5 less comparable to the 4.4.

Adding oil every 800 km would drive me crazy.