Torque converter failing...
 

2002 X5 4.4, 147,000 miles.

I had a noticeable shudder while accelerating occasionally, and also a noticeable 'stepping' up in RPM's as I was accelerating (RPM's would jump up 200-300, then stop, then jump up 200-300, then stop, etc...)

Took it to a local trans stop, he diagnosed it as a torque converter going bad. He said the fluid did not look too bad, it was brownish, but it didn't smell burnt. He said unless he pulled the pan to see if there's excess material in it, there's no way of knowing if the trans should be rebuilt as well. So I could get away with just the converter being replaced, but if there's metal shavings, I should just do both. He said I may want to do both regardless, as pulling the trans is expensive and it does have high mileage.


Here's some cost figures he gave me:


His cost for a rebuilt converter: $1000
His estimate to remove/install transmission: $500 (7 hours)
His estimate to rebuild my trans: $2000 (12 month/12k mile warranty)

Total for the above: $3700
Total to just replace torque converter: $1700


I found another local company that rebuilds converters, they actually have one in stock, cost is $205. So I could install this myself, or have the shop do it for $500 + fluids, etc. The trans shop guy didn't recommend this company as they've had one or two problems, but many people HAVE used them problem free.

Those who have been through this, what are your experiences? Anyone just do a converter? Anyone pull the trans themselves? Was it worth saving the money? I'm not a professional mechanic, but I've done a lot of custom work on older BMW's; e30's, e34's, etc... (custom engine swaps, auto to manual conversions, I've basically rebuilt mine from the ground up). But X5's are a new animal to me, and I don't want to make an expensive mistake.

no personal experience with x5 transmissions, but have spent plenty of time under other cars in my youth.

if you can afford to get it done do it, better you do what you do well, and let someone else do what they do well, especially if you get a warranty on there work

just my thoughts, maybe i,m getting lazy

EM

If you dont plan on keeping it, maybe you could trade it in on another vehical. They may not even notice the slipping. Usally when "testing" a car, its hammer down, and the TC will lock up just fine. Or they do notice it and give you a low ball offer and you just go home. And continue with plan A. (replacing the TC)

Any tips to noticing TC going bad?

I have an appointment to replace the torque converter and do a fluid flush in 2 weeks. Will be about $1000 total, using the $200 rebuilt converter.

He's going to use Wolfs Head Universal Synthetic ATF, which is supposed to meet LT 71141. Unless someone can tell me my trans will instantly blow up and kill babies and dogs if I use this fluid, that's what going in. Esso is $15+/quart (on sale at bavauto, normally over $20), which is just ridiculous.


I've had it with this overpriced, over engineered, and WEAK vehicle. My e30's both have over 300k miles and I haven't spent as much on both of them combined to maintain them over the past 10 years, as I have for this X5 since I bought it 10 months ago. I'm stunned at the lack of quality, where it matters, and the over engineering, where nobody gives a shit.

Anyone who wants it, this will be for sale after the converter replacement. Compelling for sale ad, eh?

You didn't get lucky I guess, I think your X previously was un-maintained. But it is a Weak, Glamour car. That can't do anything but get looks from people :D and is Agressive too.

I have excessive torque converter slippage code when driving on the freeway for extended periods of time 1 hour plus so I will be changing strictly my TQConverter as well. With a rebuild unit of course. I'll let you know how mine goes. I have the 3.0 though.

So the OP has known mechanical problems with his vehicle and you suggest trading it in and not informing whoever takes possession of it that the problem exist?.
Very honorable............:nanana: Perhaps you were just joking.:dunno:

It was dealer maintained by a very wealthy man. Whenever maintenance was due or something needed fixed, it was taken to the dealer. It was, and still is, in mint condition. But random shit breaks all the time.

The entire cooling system needing replaced every 80k? A trans that if you're lucky will see 100k? Window regulators that randomly self destruct? For a $50-$60k vehicle, and parts that cost thousands to replace, that's a little ridiculous.

I agree.

just because it was well maintained it doesnt mean that it wasnt driven stupidly...
If you pull the torque converter you will see the fluid too. If there are chunks in the fluid then your transmission is toast.
Use the same transmission fluid brand because that is what the clutch packs have already soaked up. Since you are dropping the transmission, do it properly so you wont have to drop it again.

It has 148k miles. Even if it was driven gently, that's miracle miles for these tranny's, according to this forum. And how it was driven has no effect on the other part failures I've experienced.

The shop is dropping the pan when they do the converter. If there's chunks of stuff, he's rebuilding it. If not, it's just getting a converter and filter/flush.

I don't care what fluid is in it. I changed my Explorers trans fluid at 140k with Wolfs Head and every trans problem it had went away, and that thing is still running perfect, so I don't buy into the "clutch plated get used to a certain fluid" idea. If anything, you just need to use a fluid that meets the spec, so the friction properties are correct. Whether wolfs head meets the spec is debatable apparantly, but the shop said they'll warranty damages caused by the fluid, as it's specifically stated that it meets LT 71141. I'm not using Esso LT71141 because the flush machine needs 16 quarts, plus ~5 for top off. That nearly exceeds the price of the entire converter replacement.

I am very sorry, but What?! 16 quarts. How does that mashine work? I truly don't know. If it doesn't have "chunks of suff" why not just change the damn fluid?

Most trans flush machines Are just a cylinder with a piston in the middle. You disconnect one of your trans hoses, and connect it to one side of the cylinder. The other side of the cylinder is connected to the other open end of the hose on the car. In one side of the cylinder, you have 16qts of new fluid. The old fluid goes into the other side, pushes on the piston, and new fluid goes into the trans. The exact amount that comes out, goes back in. It's about as good of a flush as you can do without disassembling the trans. But, you need to do 12-16 qts, as the new fluid mixes with the old fluid during the flush. It takes about 10-20 minutes depending.

Hi i had the dreaded shudder also al that was changed was the convertor and fixed drives great no probs

cheers weso09

Oh, I see. Thanks for info. And just draining and filling will not do I gues...?

I'm in exactly the same position as the OP with my 2001 4.4i. Shudder at about 1500rpm / 25mph and seems to be getting more intense and more regular. Also getting the pulsing of revs when driving uphill at around 50mph.

I like the car, the size, the comfort, the performance, but just cannot see the sense in spending £2k putting a new gearbox in a car that's worth <£5k. That's on top of the £800 I've already spent in the first eight months of ownership. I rarely keep cars for more than a year so I begrudge spending that kind of money when it'll mostly benefit future owners rather than me !! I'd happily ditch it (at a large loss, natch) and buy another one if I thought this was just a bad apple but it seems they're all like this.

I've had loads of E36s over the years and they've all been great. I had a 2002 E39 and that was awful, riddled with problems including the gerarbox. E53s seem to be the same. I even toyed with the idea of an E65 until I read a buyers guide that listed all the problems they suffer from. What's up with the early noughties BMWs ?? Are the later ones (E60, E90) any better ?

So my decision now is between getting a new TC fitted, or selling it as-is needing a new TC. Either way I lose a lot of money :(

Jgood, do some research on that Wolfs Head trans fluid and make sure that it meets the Esso specs. $15.00 a liter for the Esso is cheap. Local BMW dealer charges $42.00 per liter. Audi charges 22.00 per liter for the exact same thing.
I do have a question. How did the mechanic check the fluid? Theres no dipstick, so did he take off the fill plug and then refill it with the old fluid?

I don't think it is debatable, Wolf's Head/Amalie don't claim that it meets the spec. They say it is 'suitable for use' for cars that require fluid with that spec. That is very different. The fact that they list the same fluid as meeting specs which contradict each other shows that they are selling a fluid that is the equivalent of an adjustable wrench, a 'fits all fits nothing' type of approach. Not saying it is a bad fluid, just that it is a unknown fluid that by definition can't meet contradictory specs.

The reason it matters with your transmission is due to the transmission design. Read about the lock up clutch change that requires a fluid with a specific friction characteristic. That is why ZF came up with that fluid spec, to solve a specific problem.

Now, if your shop is guaranteeing it will work, fine, go ahead. I would be a little worried that they think it meets the spec, however.

I do agree with you that clutch plates don't get used to a certain fluid. They do require a fluid with specific friction characteristics though. And I don't think that your Explorer transmission had the same issues as the ZF design in this respect.

Replaced the converter, used the wolfs head fluid. Shifting is smooth, converter lockup is smooth and strong, shuddering is gone, RPM jumping is gone, and the slight vibration at idle in drive while stopped is gone.

torque converter
 

Glad to hear all is well. Please check in and let us all know how its running after you get a few thousand miles on the trans.

great to hear

Figured I'd give a 6 month/10k mile update. It's still running great, no noticeable issues.

Hi all good glad to hear,mine still running a treat also

cheers shane

did you guys have a whine at around 2k rpm with the failing TC. I have a feeling my TC is going to die as well. I have a 4.8is though, still ZF trans.

Torque Converter
 

Glad to hear that its still working well. I'm taking mine to the shop next week. It will be interesting to find out exactly whats wrong with the tranny.

Did you try the Lube Gard Red if you think its going what could it hurt? Mine is working better than it ever has and the whine is gone almost 1000 miles. I think it might take care of the whine. Did you put new fluid in?

Yea I drained the old fluid with the pan drop twice remember. I am going to try that Lube Guard. Just haven't had the chance.

Dude, You're driving me crazy. Where can we meet half between the big city and the little city, Maybe Flemington, NJ. I'l bring my jack and some stands and tools you bring the lubegard. Then you can buy me coffee.

Where do you want to meet?

Lol thanks for the offer. It might work, but the tranny would be messed up hot. If you ever come out to Brooklyn, stop by my garage, way more comfortable place to work, versus a parking lot. I plan on giving it a go hopefully this weekend. All I have to do is back it up some ramps and I'm in place. I am confident of the process to do this without the GT1 now, so its just a matter of having the time apart from work and family.

P.S. This is my garage fridge.
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-k...0/IMG_1769.jpg

P.P.S. This is my Garage (minus the clutter that's in this renovation pic)
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-G...0/IMG_1820.jpg

So come by if you want to wrench. Even if on just my car, lol.

no wine in mine just the shuddering but all fixed going great

Nice garage, my garage is very functional and heated but I don't have that fancy floor! Yuengling, My favorite!!! That looks like enough for me.

Yea garage is still a work in progress. I still have an entire wall of cabinets to build, then two work benches. Then need all the doors. Still need to get 5 light fixtures. I already have 5 double tube fluorescent in there. Which is nice when working on car, but lacking light when working on anything around the perimeter.

Yea so much to do, so little time.

Jgood, I have a 4.6is with 142k miles. I have the exact same issues going on - the incremental rpm steps, the throttle oscillation, an occasional slight shudder under very light acceleration. I was hoping to find something in the valvebody and have been talking with ZF North America. I ruled out fluid temp and weak engine coils. My next assignment was to monitor TC lockup percentage to see if the TC was being commanded or unlocking on its own but I need a scan tool. The more I drive it and read other forums, I'm starting to think the TC is just getting plain wore out. And when I read your post, it emphasizes that. Did you have the valvebody or solenoid rebuilt/replaced? Any metal shavings in the pan? If I can be confident that a TC replacement will fix it, I'm good with that. It sounds like it worked well for you. However, I've also heard the same issues being fixed by a simple fluid/filter change. Did you try that first?

I spent a few hours talking to the guy at the transmission shop. We figured the best course of action was to pull the trans pan, and go from there... If it was filled with metal shavings, he was doing a full rebuild. If it was clean, he was just doing the converter. He said in his experience, just flushing it won't do anything, at least not with the symptoms I had.

I tried to hint at my concerns of a valve body issue, and he said although it could be, the symptoms I have are exactly what a failing torque converter would have, so it wouldn't make a lot of sense to go the valve body rebuild route right off the bat.

The day came to pull the pan, and it was perfectly clean, hence the reason he just swapped the converter, did a flush, and called it a day

Considering our identical mileage and symptoms, I'd have to recommend the same course of action for you. Just be sure you don't have any engine/trans codes, as they may hint at another problem. Mine didn't have any.

There are no codes. When I had my oil changed at my local indy, they pulled all codes hard and soft and nothing came up. I'll probably start talking to them about getting it in there for the TC. Hopefully that's all it is. Thx for the info!

"I had a noticeable shudder while accelerating occasionally, and also a noticeable 'stepping' up in RPM's as I was accelerating (RPM's would jump up 200-300, then stop, then jump up 200-300, then stop, etc...)"

Shit, mine started doing this a few weeks ago at 131K. The shudder is rare but it's there and I constantly notice the RPM step-up between 1,600-1,900RPM on light throttle.

Great. I have zero trouble codes as well.

Identical to my symptoms. Hey man, I got mine fixed for $700 out the door. A trans rebuild is $3k+. If I were you, I'd be happy...

No I'd rather have that than a transmission blow up, which is why it's going to get fixed ASAP before it takes that along with it.

Yeah, that was one thing the guy pointed out to me, I needed to get it taken care of ASAP, and the trans needed thoroughly flushed. So make sure you don't just get a drain and fill.

I had planned on doing a transmission flush this week on my day off, now it looks like I'll be dropping it to put a torque converter in so long as I can get the part in time. Monday it's going in to a few transmission shops to confirm the issue before I waste my money and time.

I've learned throughout the years to not just jump the gun, sometimes issues thought to be serious were just something silly.

What's a good place to get a reman TC for a good price?

I got mine from a local place called Landis Converters. It was $200 (plus $100 core charge), came with a one year warranty, and was in stock.

Around here they charge $700 and I could find it online for $600. Is there a rebuild kit for TC?

Re-manufacturing a 5HP24 torque converter is a specialist job because the lock-up clutch is friction-welded in place with a spring preload on it. Part of the piston hub has to be machined away to release it and then, after renewing the friction plate, the re-manufacturer has to re-weld it back in place while applying the correct level of preload. Not an easy job to get right.

http://www.xoutpost.com/bmw-sav-forums/x5-e53-forum/83839-transmission-issues-summary-4.html#post863854

Phil

Thanks guys. I will be looking for a good price online I guess. The difference between what I found so far and what jgood paid is quite significant. Are there different ways of manufacturing these TCs to justify the difference in price?

Thank goodness I found this post...I have the exact same issue on my 4.6 and was close to biting the bullet on a full tranny rebuild. I think Ill take the same approach - drop pan and check for shavings and if its clean, just go with the TC replacement.

I do have quite a bit of miles...so it may be a full rebuild anyways. Ive been doing searches all over and finally found the right keywords that matched what I feel on my X.

I just dealt withit the last year, but its getting worse...so its time. No codes, nothing.

Sub'd for your results...

Dropping off car on 1/2/15 at a transmission shop.

Got a few quotes from some Indys that are BMW only shops, but figured Id give this shop thats a transmission shop a try as they had some reviews from X5 Owners and had good things to say.

He's going to run some tests on it - see if its just the TC or if its a whole rebuild. Im fine with either...but clearly want the cheaper route out if possible. Ill update shortly after I get it back.

Current Mileage on my Tranny - 160k. First time servicing it EVER. Not bad considering the mileage and issues only happening now.

mam4.6 (Since you sub'd).

Heres the results of my trip to the Transmission Shop:

My Tranny has 162k - Original with never getting fluid replaced.

- Fluid Checked. Fluid was full, not low. Was definitely dirty, but no particles.

- Mechanic confirmed my issues with the following - shakes/stutters at low speeds in between gears, shaking when going uphills at slow speeds, jumps in RPM "stepping" as increasing speed around 55mph. Also had a weird drone noise at certain speed/rpm that sounded odd every once in a while.

He said it was internal and recommended a rebuild. After considering my options and reading this post, I have decided to go for the rebuild. It makes the most sense with this many miles and I head out to the mountains quite a bit - so its not going to make sense to take a chance.

Ill have the X back in about 1.5 weeks - Ill report the difference when its back. Its going to set me back 3k. To all the die hards who recommend BMW only remans, Ill take my chances here. This shop has done numerous X5 Rebuilds with good reviews. I cant see spending 7-8k on a reman for this old of a car - heck, 3k is pushing it. But I do love this thing still and might have been missing out on the power it once had due to this tranny issue. As I got used to the weirdness in the tranny, I guess I didnt notice losing the power as much as I should have since Ive been driving like this the past 7 months or so.

...we'll see. If it comes out bad, then its my fault and 3k lost - Thats a gamble Im willing to take. Stay tuned.

Thanks for the update. Interested in your end result. My X will be getting a tranny update next time I happen by my Indy. I'm getting some vibration on slight uphill grades as I very slightly accelerate to maintain speed. Harder acceleration or deceleration makes it dissappear. I'm thinking more of a torque converter issue, but figured an update can't hurt.

Got the X5 Back...wow. All I can say is I miss it operating normal...I almost forgot what it felt like.

So, just for those that are stuck on BMW Shops performing the work on transmissions, I will say there are good shops out there that are credible and not BMW shops.

My transmission was rebuilt, all internals were kept and the mechanic walked me through all the items that were causing my issues.

Main Issues when tranny opened:
- Torque Converter was worn completely
- Clutch Discs? Little disc looking things that almost look like Mountain Bike Brake Discs were all worn (thinner than normal and didn't have bite anymore). Lots of those in the tranny.
- Certain part of the Valve Body was worn. I guess where a valve is supposed to sit tight was no longer tight and moved almost freely
- Forward Drum around the edges/side looked concave almost. Supposed to be plum/straight
- Filter was super dirty (that was expected)
- Guibo (Flex Disc) on Front Diff was starting to crack/tear
- Lots of fine metal particles on the magnets

Got a bunch of things done and did the Rear Main Seal and Coolant Cover Gasket while the tranny was out. This thing drives and shifts like a champ again and no more stuttering/pulsing weirdness and stepping in my RPM's while cruising and accelerating anymore. Out the door cost at a "Non BMW Specific" Transmission Shop (but very familiar with X5 Transmissions) was 3200.00.

Cost included:

ZF Tranmission Rebuild Kit
Fluid and Filter
Rebuilt Torque Converter
FWD Drum
Lower Valve Body
Accumulator on Valve Body (x2)
Rebuild Seal Kit
Coolant Gasket
Front Flex Disc
Engine Rear Main Seal
(Replaced a supplied Front Left Axle/Seal for free) - didn't change my original quote and just did it because he said it was easy enough
Basically everything that showed wear in the tranny was replaced

In short, Im glad I went with the full rebuild rather than the Torque Converter only fix. It was clear from the internals when he opened it up and showed me the parts and compared them to what new looks like....there was a huge difference. Again, I had 160k on my tranny with no services done EVER on it. Im glad it lasted me as long as it did and was a heck of a lot better than what others experienced. I hope this takes me another 100k at least (if I even keep the car that much longer). Whatever happened and was fixed, it surely took care of the issues I was experiencing.

I responded on this post to open it up for anyone that does a search on these types of symptoms and debating a rebuild.

For 3200.00 - it was well worth it over than 7k+ quotes I was getting from BMW Indys. Transmission Shops that are up to speed on these trannys should know what they're doing and well worth the savings. Just make sure you do your research before biting the bullet. I happened to have a shop local to me that had people review them that had X5's Tranny Rebeuilds with great results which helped me make my decision.

Good luck to anyone that has similar issues and bites the bullet to get it done. Well worth it. 100% of my power is back and smooth as butter while driving again...ahhhhhhh. :thumbup:

...and for the record. I had no codes pop up with all the issues I had. It was definitely drivable on flat lands with no issues and slight stutters and stepping of my RPMs as Id accelerate, but nothing that sounded broken.

What made me get the rebuild:

- Stuttering when going uphills (even slight inclines). Felt like misfires.
- RPM's would jump roughly 100-200 RPM while accelerating slow until it felt like resting at a certain speed (people refer to it as "stepping" in RPMS's???)
- RPM's would bounce up and down 200 RPM while at a cruising speed anywhere from 25mph - 65mph.
- Towards the final days before bringing it to the shop, I had a slight drone sound coming from the middle of the car. Only would hear it noticable when RPM's were low (below 3k or so)

Only way to get around the issues I mentioned above - drive the car hard or in Manual Mode.

I was so used to it, when I picked up my car I was expecting it to act the same and it never did. Thats how instilled in my head it was. Almost like it was normal...thats how long I was driving it like that. Lighter pockets, but confidence in the X again.

Oh, I have a 4.6is with 160k in case anyone is wondering. Old, but solid! Looks new...so who cares!

I never did update this. So, before getting the chance to do anything about the torque converter I lost the transmission. Shifting fine, came to a stop, went to take off and nothing then a sudden jolt as the first gear clutch finally engaged. I hauled it off to a local transmission shop and had them yard it out after pulling an assload of codes out of it. When they called they said it was toast. Of course I went down and had them show me the damage so I wasn't getting jerked around and yes indeedy - it was. So a full rebuild later, everything was fine. However I started noticing some odd behavior shortly after the replacement. Brought it back, they replaced the valve body. A few months later it developed an entirely new set of issues. Delayed engagement in to drive that if I rushed it would slam into gear rather hard. Normal driving was mostly fine, but moderate to hard driving would yield notchy shifts and downshifting would cause a severe neutralizing (redline the engine then BANG into the lower year). This put a lot of strain on the rear differential bushings which I made them replace as well as one tore. I brought it back, they confirmed the issue, and I waited for an entire new transmission to be installed. They called me a week later and said that they had the new transmission but their tech stripped the cooler fitting out of the housing during instillation so they were going to have a new one brought in. Finally another week later, I had it back. And by God was it ever the best shifting automatic I have ever felt. Lightening quick, concise, smooth shifts. Heavenly, really. I sold the X not too long ago shifting beautifully.