Is it worth it to Clean the CCV valve?
 

I have a 2002 3.0, 60,000 miles ago I replaced the ccv with the cold climate upgrade. I am wondering if just taking it apart and cleaning the whole unit is worth it or should I just replace it once I get it out of the engine bay?

Money is a bit tight and $200 in parts would just increase the old Credit Card balance. I had hoped to replace it next fall. but, yesterday at 24 degrees F, I heard the tell tale faint "fire engine siren sound" coming from the CCV area. (that's the sound I heard minutes before my CCV blew up 60,000 miles ago, I have bad greams about that sound). I pulled into a parking lot and let it idle for about 15 minutes to get good and hot and the sound went away. Drove it the rest of the day and no problem.

This morning 19 degrees F. I let it warm up in my driveway for 20 minutes before I gingerly drove it about 10 miles to my first appointment. NO NOISE THIS MORN. Car running great.

What should I do?

No opin on replacing vs cleaning, but you might take a Pasadena on those long 'warm ups'; it isn't warming anything up, properly.
GL, mD

I normally don't do that. But, feeling that the condensation had frozen in the down tube for the dipstick at those sub freezing temps, I figured warming the oil and pan would eventually melt any ice that might be in there. The ice is near the bottom of the dipstick correct? so heating the metal pan and the metal dipstick tube....:dunno: Before I put any real stress on the engine going up a hill etc. It seemed to work temporarily. I normally just get in and drive. Temps are supposed to be above freezing for the next few days, Hope to get it done during this window.

I guess I'll get the parts. take the ccv apart and either clean it if it looks in good shape or replace parts if anything is cracked or damaged.

I'm no engineer but, this just seems like a bad design.

After reading all the problems the X5s are having with this issue, I decided to us some preventing maintenance. This is what I do every year:

1. Right after the first month of freezing temperature, i will take the CCV off and clean it.

2. Since I drive the X5 to work every day and the job is only 15 miles away (not enough to burn the condensation), I use a Vacuum to suck milky stuff that may be accumulating in the CCV. I can tell it is clean when i see black oil coming up the tube.

See pictures below.

I hope this help.

Joe

So, how often do you do this after the initial cleaning?

You are a genius, Twins Poppa you could do it every month during the winter it looks so easy.

Taking off the CCV is easy? I thought that it was a PITA to get to. The vaccuming looks easy but that is only half of what he does, correct?

Not really, I just think about doing things the easier way without given all my money to the dealer.

Twins Poppa, I usually disconnet the tube going to the CCV and see if there is any milky stuff there and depending how much I see, I will connect the Vaccum and suck it out.

He cleans it once. then vacums until he cleans it again. Or am I wrong?

you are correct. Taking off the CCV is no easy task. I do it because I like taking stuffs apart and put them back together (This has cost me alot because i usually brake something, :D). I had a hard time putting it back together about a month ago. It was not bad inside, meaning my preventing maintainance worked. I will not be taking it off next year, since the sucking of the milky stuff is working fine.

Thanks. I have the 4.8 and it looks like from your pic its easier to get to the oil separator on the 3.0.

I've never checked my oil separator yet. Maybe I should.

I just left the dealer. I was going to buy the parts and the parts guy asked if it blew up( NO), how did I know it was bad (I don't really), did I ever have it upgraded to the cold climate (Yes , 60,000 miles ago, 3 yrs ago).?

He said I'll sell you the parts if you really want, but he said these are made to last longer than 3 years. If I take short trips then just take it apart and clean it. So tonight I will be getting dirty.

I will take pics of the results.

I am going to try the prevent vaccum work that ARMYX5 does. Thanks for that tip.

Is the cold climate the same as what's being called the newer design of the CCV? I thought the major differences from the old and new design were:

- Oil separator itself was insulated
- Hoses were insulated with blanket wraps
- Redesigned single wall oil dipstick tube

If you already have those then there's not much else to do (as far as replacing) but clean the separator/hoses and check for cracks. I'm just going off memory so don't hold me to it.

I can't remember if there's a diaphram that can go bad in the oil separator itself or not.

TwinsPoppa,
Yup apparently that's what I have cold climate upgrade is what my dealer calls it:dunno:

As for replacing it or cleaning it that was the purpose of the thread. I have read the 3 forums I know about and almost everyone just replaces the unit as preventative maintenance if they are going through the trouble of removing it in the first place. In the 8 cylinder parts are around $400 in the 6 cylinder parts are around $200.

Posters claim the rubber breaks down and becomes brittle from the heat, yada yada yada. So replaceing it with all the parts is the overwhelming opinion.... I am trying to save $200 to prolong the life of my money:D and thanks to Army find a way to maintain a claener CCV so I don't have to worry about this.

Apparently I take short trips because I have milky white crap under my cap... I do about half 10 mile trips or under and half 20 mile trips or over... I always thought the longer trips would balance the shorter ones and burn the crap out...

But apparently people in Germany drive 100 miles and go 90 mph on AutoBahn just to get a gallon of milk. If you don't you are a girly man and should have your hood stripped of all Rondelles and you should be shipped off to concentration camp for hard labor and re-education.... stinking, stupid American, with 7-11 one mile from house... we spit in your general direction... getting milk should be hard like working on German car

Yeah, if I don't havet to replace it I don't want to. I assume I still have the original in mine and if I run into problems I MAY just replace them. We just went over 80K miles in our X.

My wife does short trips in it all the time daily but haven't had problems - yet. Last couple of years has been bad winters around here so I think I need to check for the paste in ours.

Good luck on the cleaning!

Ghost-Flame, sounds like you want to play around with you X huh? becareful -Sometimes it costs alot of money to play around with the X :D If you replaced CCV 60K ago and keep changing oil every 5-7K miles, you still have another 60K before thinking to clean or replace another CCV.
Did your X engine sound horrible when it's cold?

When i replaced Valve Cover Gasket, I also check the vent pipe that connect to oil separator - it looks good to me, there're some condensed oil stuck around but not bad at all. Last week i spoke to my tech person, he said i don't have to replace oil separator (crankcase and ventilation) until 120K or 130K or unless it's starting and running rough in the cold weather. My X is ~90K and it has the original CCV system.
I change oil for every 5-6K miles, most of the time oil change at 5000 miles.

^I did change oil every 6 - 7 thousand, since 82,000 miles. I did get the insulated upgrade from a dealer cuz the ccv blew up on the 2nd day I owned it.. the engine sounded fine. But, I got that whistle (siren sound) at 24 degrees F. Just like the sound that occured seconds before the ccv blew up last time.

My engine was super sludged when I got it at 82,000 miles. It was owned by a70 yr old grandmother that lived on a 1/2 mile dirt/gravel road. I'm sure all her trips were short and judging by the oil I drained out of the engine after purchasing, it was like chocolate pudding. Had not been changed in years. I took some of the oil to my indy mechanic and asked him if it had coolant in it. He said no. he filled the radiator and asked me to bring it back in 1 month. No coolant had been leaked out as it was still full.

I'm thinking she didn't drive much herself in the cold, she had a ton of oil condensation in the oil that looked like it was way more than 15,000 miles. The oil filter was CAKED with black solids... like wax between the folds. Some of the folds were bridged with solids. I changed the oil 3 times over the next 3000 miles.

I think that the CCV was gunked up pretty bad. It hasn't been cleaned since that episode. and the sludge condition presumably existed for at least the first 3,000 miles. Who Knows.

I changed the oil 1200 miles ago. I cleaned the cap with wd-40. I checked the cap this after noon and it looks like enough mayonaise under the cap the smear your turkey sandwich.

So, Tomorrow I'm going to use army's technique and see what I get. I can't do any damage there. If I pull out a ton of milky gunk I will take it apart to clean and replace if I have to, meaning I break it.

I don't want it to blow up again in January when we get single digit temps.

Army how far into the valve cove pipe did you feed the tube (I'm assuming you pushed in as far as you can)? Did you seal the tubing in the vacum hose or did you allow some air to enter around the tube?

I was under the impression the 4.8 got the redesigned unit. We should not be seeing this problem. Or maybe is that for the 05-06 models?

The redesign was basically insulating the oil separator and hoses.

So, condensate can still freeze and plug the hoses and separator - just not as easy as the older design.

Ghost,


I pushed it in about haft way down. With an adapter (Micro Cleaning kit) from Shop-Vac to connect the vacuum and the tubing, it was sealed enough to do the job I wanted. Make sure you bend the tip of the tubing a little and make as flexible as you can. You will have a little challenge getting the tip to turn 90 degree at the start of the CCV pipe.

Edit: you can remove the middle piece and use it as in the picture on my first post.

^ yeah, if your car sits at the airport for 2 or more days at teens temp. No insulation would be able to protect the ccv from freezing under those conditions.

Army, thanks i'l post pics!

Well that's just great. I barely drive the truck, but at least it's garage kept, so I have that going for me. Guess I now have an excuse to take a decent road-trip.

That vacuum idea doesn't look that bad right now. Going to take a look how difficult this process would be on the 4.8.

I already own most of the stuff required to do this, so thanks for the idea Army.

Army, is this the kit? Does it fit the standard Shop Vac hose? Thanks again.

http://www.amazon.com/Micro-Vacuum-A...sr=1-2-catcorr

I'm going to try doing this on my 3.0 later today. Santa Clause won't leave me alone, he's taking all my free time!

I'll post my results. I too have what I need to do this.I hadn't thought of the shop vac as a way to extract fluids before this thread, That may be a good way to change fluids also:thumbup:

great thank you. Going to order it today. I will replace the tubing if this doesn't work. I am sure Pet Land, HD or Lowes will have a huge array of tubing I can try. Thanks.

Ghost, make sure you remove your filter and bag (if you use bags) from your shop vac. Well at least that's how mine works when sucking liquids.

SlickGT1,

You can buy everything at Lowes if you don't want to wait for the post man. The Kit is right next to the Shop-Vac.

Good idea. I forget Shop Vac is lowes brand. Thanks.

Ghost,

Have you completed the work yet? Did it worked for you?

I did do it before Christmas, I didn't get any gunk at all out of the CCV.

I can only conclude
1) there's no gunk in there
2) I didn't create enough suction in the tubing

The tube came out with a little water a few drops and some black oil smudge on the outside of the tube. Nothing that looked like what you pictured.

I bottomed out the tube as far as it would go about 20 inches or so. then moved the tube into different positions, nothing seemed to bring up any gunk.

I did however suck out my power steering pump. got lots of gunk out of there, refilled with Mobil1 ATF.

If you didn't get any gunk out of it and got some black oil smudge, that mean that you didn't have that much stuff build up in there. That is a good thing :thumbup:.

That makes me feel better going into the really cold months January and February. We can get days in the single digits. If nothing else, maybe we discovered a way to check for gunk.:thumbup:

Can someone help me find the damn CCV on realoem for the 4.8is.

RealOEM.com * Diagram Selection

Here it is it's on the cylinder head schematic, second blow up from the bottom

Thanks Ghost, but I don't see it

This Link is the one you referring, doesn't show the damn CCV.
RealOEM.com * BMW E53 X5 4.8is Crankcase-Ventilation

I admit all I see are hoses give them a call they are very helpful

Hi mates, i think this's what worked for just 4.4/4.6/4.8is not for 3.0?

Hey ArmyX5,

What's the size of the tubing you used? I'm thinking of doing it myself these days. 2 years ago my X caught on fire due to frozen CCV, and I've spent over $1,500 to replace all the hoses. Yesterday I saw the yellow milky stuff again, so I can't wait to dig you post out.

Thx, bro.

Great idea, but there are complete insulated kit upgrades for this problem Changed mine out after 170K without any problems. Things are go. It is a PITA on the 3.0

There has to be an easier way... Could I just run some Seafom through it to rinse it out then change my oil?

LeiZ,

I am sorry, but I cannot remember the size of the tubing. I am going to do this maintenance very soon and need to get the tubing again. Will let you know as soon as I get the new tubing.

No. You can try and clean out the engine with a product like Seafoam, but it is hard on the engine. Just do a hot oil change. Seafoam does nothing to the CCV since oil doesn't circulate through the CCV.

Don't ever recall this being a problem on my E34, but then it didn't have the CCV like the M54.

that milky stuff is normal and gets burned off... cleaning it out is pointless because it will return pretty quickly and is never really harmful to begin with.

It is really harmful if enough of it collects in the CCV and then freezes.

it's not the same stuff collecting... it's getting burnt off.

I disagree. If CCV is working, there should not be any Mayo under the fill cap. I had the mayo until I replaced the CCV, now nothing, and no oil consumption either!

It is the other way around. The condensate paste is formed over time from the engine not getting hot enough, and being kept hot long enough, to burn off the moisture that is in the engine. The moisture emulsifies with the oil, forms the paste, and if it is collecting under the filler cap (easy to see it there) it will also collect elsewhere. If it collects in the CCV, and it gets cold enough, it can freeze.

The CCV doesn't cause the paste, it is a victim of the paste freezing. The CCV can work perfectly and the paste still collect. If it doesn, the fault is the driver's, for abusing the vehicle with too many short trips and never giving it a good hot run.

You are correct that there shouldn't be any paste under the filler cap. It should never form, because the moisture should be burned off first. Once it has formed, it doesn't easily burn off.

I here you, that is the conventional wisdom.

However, I will tell you that I know all of that and have observed that, having just replaced the CCV this fall, there is no Mayo under the fill cap after short trips. Likewise there is no longer any significant oil loss. I drive it 300miles round trip skiing weekly, but often lots of short trips in between. It reached a point where it did not matter if I drove it for a long drive or not, there was always mayo. I never had the mayo before, and all of a sudden it started. I also have driven multiple cars with similar driving and never have I seen "mayo" formation, this includes 3 other BMW's. It seems to be unique to the M54:dunno: I don't pretend to completely understand it, but replacing the CCV solved it! Hopefully for a good long time too, since I don't want to have to replace it again anytime soon!

you should see my A3's cap... I could fill jars of miracle whip with it if I kept cleaning it out. Still running strong at 120k

Hmmm, OK then. Anyway, a new CCV seems to have "fixed" it for now.

FWIW I had 3 A4's and never have I seen it:dunno:

What's the consensus; can you rehabilitate a CCV? I recently bought a 4.8is and immediately drove it for 13.5 hours home, only stopping for gas. Would this have the effect of cleaning out the CCV if there had been any build up in there, or is this not how it works?

Not how it works. It is remotely mounted so doesn't get hot enough. It is a canister that crankcase fumes are vented into, so it doesn't have oil circulating through it. It separates the oil mist from the fumes, and the resulting oil drains back into the sump. Unless it is frozen shut by condensate paste that has built up over time, and then frozen.

You can rehabilitate it by manually cleaning it out, and depending on the model, by replacing the diaphragm if necessary.

V8 ccv is ontop of valve covers ur condensation should b taken care of after that drive, easy to remove just pry 6 tabs and pull off, i cleaned mine and the idle got smoother

Also open the 4 way hose and blow air through it to get the oil out if there is any and check ur intake maniffold for buildup

My own experience: 2 years ago, the car caught on fire due to frozen CCV (pressure built up and pushed the oil out of valve gasket). Then I have the entire CCV and hoses replaced. This year, I found the yellowish stuff again.

The majority of M54 Engine owner will disagree with your conventional wisdom, myself included. The fact that you drive your X5 300miles weekly is preventing you from accumulating the Mayo, also the type of short trips made can make a different. If you drive to the store and get back in your vehicle after 15-30 minutes and park your vehicle in a garage, your engine maybe still warm and not condensation is formed, but if you drive to work days after days for 15 or so minutes/miles and leave your car outside, you will see the Mayo. For some of us it may take 2-5 years to see the damage that a frozen CCV can do to your car. Someone mentioned that the Mayo is not harmful and he is correct. It is the freezing of the Mayo as mentioned by JCL that will pressurized your engine make it blow up.