Final Diagnosis - car needs new engine. help before I sell or part
 

Thats what I've been told by three different mechanics that have taken a look at my X. Its a 2001, 3.0i, (canadian), 119,000 K, silver.
So after two weeks of agony of the darn thing, I have been told now by the third place that the engine is toast, and I just need a new one. No explaination, no part to say that was the cause, no concrete reason as to why I just drove my X straight from NYC to Miami, upon which it performed like a dream, to now where I'm being told that it needs a new engine.
Long story short, during the drive crossing into hotter climate nearly instantly it felt like, noticed a small coolant leak, which to mean flagged thermostat. In miami, car taken to a shop, told rad has crack in a different spot then where I told them the original coolant was seen dried up, which they never found even. r/r rad, told it overheated after a test drive, no smokes when it runs, yellow mustard good on cap, car is done, needs new engine. Super.

Had old radiator put back in, obviously didn't need it if the cars done-for, then drove it home upon which it drove fine. Thought about thermostat, 2nd opinion said same thing, new engine. Got car back again, r/r thermo after seeing it drive around town with no overheating if the t-stat was unplugged. All set after that, gas up, took for a test drive. 30-45 after running like a beast again, albeit starting problems, it just died on the highway, and would start. Sounded like water pump had been almost about to fail as it happened too, so I pulled over immediately to avoid it. Nothing happened, just wouldn't start back up. told coolant on plugs, as its in combustion chamber.
Below is the DME report the day or two before it all went south. Seems almost as though there might have been an underlying electrical issue?

I could be way wrong on this one, so if thats the case, its up for sale. Thanks all.
:thumbup:

Well, I have a couple questions. At any time during all those cooling system failures did you overheat even for just 15 to 30 seconds? I've been told by my Indie mechanic, after I busted my coolant resvoir, that you have about a 30 second window after your radiator gauge gets over to the exreme right. to shut the car off. these engines have alluminum heads and are intolerant of extreme heat. I was lucky my resvoir blew and drained for a few miles before I noticed the steam I was 3 blocks from the indie shop. I rolled into the parking lot and shut it off just as the gauge was getting into the red hot area.

A rebuilt head is about $2500, I'm guessing the labor has got to be 1200 to 1500. So you could have $4000 to get the head replaced. another $2000 and you have a rebuilt engine installed. How's the rest of the car? do you like the X?
Personally I would talk to a shop that not only swaps engines but, can replace components. A new head and new rings while it's apart.

or one of these $3500. get a friend to help install it.:dunno:

plus at least 20 hrs at $90 per hour labor if the indie does it.

rebuilt engines 2002 BMW X5 Engine Sales > Buy High Quality Used Engines/Motors at Great Discount (Huge Selection)!

These are solid motors i think your dealing with retards. I would have never bought a bmw if i couldnt work on it. This forum and a lot of time spent in the garage will tell you that its usually something simple that fails. These bmw are for people who have plenty of money to have it worked on or someone with some patients and xoutpost

I agree. I would put the car in the garage or since you are in Miami under a shade tree and start trouble shoting the engine. I would not accept the 3 opinions. Without arun down of what specifically, has failed. Most things on these engines are fixable.
Do you have any idea so far what might have failed.
I was told back in november that I needed anew vanos and head. I took it to another mechanic. He put in a new vanos sensor, then cleared the code. I've put 4800 miles since...no problems since.
It's worth trouble shooting, I think.

I think hes dealing with some coolant issues. If you run your climate control on auto its a good posibility that your aux/heater water pump will circulate enough water and keep the X at a normal operating temp. I drove like this for about 400 miles( easy miles ) if i turned off climate control i could watch temp guage climb. Run the heat up and it would go back to dead center on the gauge. Took water pump out and see that impeller has stripped off he shaft.

Yes thank you guys. Its just that gut feeling that no matter what, its hard to ignore. And to make things even more interesting, the check engine light hasn't been on during this whole process. I feel like a busted engine would throw a code, considering these cars thrown one for the gas cap. I LOVE the car, absolutely couldn't see myself in anything else.
I had suggested, after the first new radiator install, that they just drain everything out, flush and refill w/bmw coolant, do an oil change, and just drive it out, let it clear itself out. they said nope, not gonna do anything, im just dreaming.
I guess I dreamed that the yellow mustard goop dissapeared after i had drove it around for a little and let the oil temp heat up to burn off anything in there.
But still, no definite diagnosis, but for some reason I doubt you can drive a car with a bad engine around town, with no cel, or any blatant noises or acceleration problem that would make one think,'' hmmmm, maybe I had a bad engine"

I'm thinking -
new rad, water pump, check ccv valve, spark plugs, oil + coolant change, whatever cooling components exist behind the engine,
or maybe its just some stupid little hose off somewhere, who knows. I just know I'm not an idiot, and if the car were over heating, its not like I would say "Oh whats that pretty color light mean, oh well, guess I'll just keep going" and destory the car I love. A low coolant message is usually the idiot-proof way to avoid overheating, and I didn't even get that.

Just a time consuming thing, and I do need to get around.... oh what to do.

if anyone has any ideas on specific parts to check, please let me know. Last 7 of the VIN are

Yes, thats exactly what had happened. Drove 1350 miles to miami, everything fine till I get to a starbucks drive through and I remember I touched SOMETHIGN on the climate control. I believe it was the a/c button, cause in NYC, obviously don't need a/c, so was the first time it had been on in a couple weeks.

Had water pump done 12/5 ish. Maybe a bad one or they threw in a refurbished one? Any way I can look into that. Have all records of course

I remember your other thread. So you drove back from NYC to Miami with a coolant leak, never bothering even to top it off. Your lucky you even made it. But that is besides the point.

It still sounds to me most like a blown head gasket...

But they should be able to give you a good explanation of what is wrong.
That sucks that you have got 3 half ass descriptions of failure. Maybe read the paperwork and see if anything is noted in there?
Sounds like you need to pick better shops, night cost more but you might get competent answers and troubleshooting.

Sent from my SGH-i917 using Board Express

my heat sucked major butt the entire winter as well. would have been better with a freaking lighter under my hands.

no i didnt drive to miami with a coolant leak.

and sure doesnt drive like a car with a broken head gasket...

picked the apparent 3 highly recommended shops. Kind of racking up big bills with a rental car and farting around with tow trucks and what not. I love the car, but I do have a life ya know

On the low coolant light, your car might not be wired for one. My truck doesn't have it. Well the sensor is there but no wire to hook to it.
Just FYI

Sent from my SGH-i917 using Board Express

In the other post you said you got pulled over and smelled coolant, and that was only part way though the story of your drive back...

Sent from my SGH-i917 using Board Express

"You need a new engine" is code for "I'm too stupid to know" or "I'm too lazy to care". 99% of the time the only reason you would need a new engine is if it has gone "BANG" and left bits of shrapnel all over the freeway.

Allstarsrd,
It sounds like you are concerned abot the goop in the oil. I had a blown head gasket once that didn't spew out externally and only was a little steamy coming out the tail pipe. I had coolant in the oil and the vanilla goop was present in the oil.
I have 2 ideas
1) send a oil sample to Blackstone and get them to confirm what is in the oil goo. Blackstone Labs . An oil analysis will give you more than just coolane present in the oil. If you engine is being chewed up it will analys the meatl content of the oil and be able to say for example excessive bearing wear, cam shaft wear etc etc.

2) Drain the oil, replace the oil filter, put some cheap synthetic in the car Walmart , Pep Boys... run engine for 10 minutes, keep and eye on the wtaer level, if it goes down just fill with water for now. After 10 minutes drainn oil again. Fill with a version of bmw LL01. if the car is driveable, drive it and check the oil every half hour or so. If there is coolant in the oil you have a blown head gasket. You can do this yourself if you are careful and use a DIY from someone here or from your bently manual.

If your car is running good and drives then it sure sounds like a blown head gasket. the engine will still run with a blown HG but, not very well and will consume whatever is in the radiator. I wish you were up my way. I think we could figure this out.

If it a blown head gasket and the head is not warped. you are talking smallish cost if you DIY. If you take the head off before you reinstall it have it checked by a machine shop for true-ness

Agree that there is concern being expressed about the condensate in the oil (the 'goop') but I wouldn't worry about it. It is present on any BMW that isn't driven hard enough to boil off the condensation. It isn't important that it is there, it is important what caused it. Condensation is normal, coolant leaking into the oil is bad, obviously. If coolant is leaking in from a cracked engine/head or a blown valve gasket, it would tend to do it fairly continuously, it wouldn't come and go. You just need to know if the coolant level is dropping. Also, it would likely be adding enough water to the oil to make the oil milky coloured, not just some goop under the valve cover. Do a hot oil change (with API SM 5W-30) or two, and see if any water shows up after it is flushed out and back in use.

Skip the oil analysis, it is a waste of money. It won't tell you anything until you do it enough times to establish a base line and see a trend. If there is metal in the oil that matters, it won't show up in a typical spectrographic oil analysis, you would have to do a large particle count anyway. And if you are changing the oil then you won't be able to establish a trend line.

I hadn't thought about a cracked head. wouldn't a cracked block or head show other symptoms, Llike external leaks of oil or coolant?

Unless it leaks not much and inside,no?
Major coolant leak could even cause the hydro-lock of an engine

Engine combustion chamber, oil galleries, coolant galleries, and external. Depends on where a crack is, what it leaks into. That is, if it is cracked. For some reason the shop felt that there was engine damage, however. We don't know what caused them to conclude that, it may have been a pressure test.

take the head off and have it checked !!!
 

They heat it up and if theres a crack they can tell!!! a headset is 300.00 bucks or so .

Mde them do a pressure test on the cooling system to check for leaks. They said o leaks. 5-10 minites later, i see coolant coming out from raiator.....
They also said theresbacked up pressure in the system. As did the second opinion. This led me to think thermostat.
My scan printout also reads that theres a short circuit somewhere. Terminal 30 defective? Oil temp signal, short circuit to negative, same with coolant temp senspr. MAF.
Main thing thats really botherig me, is the first shop telling me the engins shot after they put in the mew radiator and didnt bother to check anything else. Then i come back to them saying oh we test drove it around the block and it overheated again now its smoking. Engines bad.
Hm, well it wast smoking when i drove it onto the tow truck. I just dont know how to even pursue that... Tell someone they fucked up, then leave it with them again to fix? Its like telling a chef his food sucks and asking for no spit on the re-order.

JCL what sort of tests could the OP ask for of his shop? What's the list? Can he ask for numbers/written report on a leak down test or any other appropriate test? I drove it around, to me is not a test. Am I wrong?

If this were mine I would want to know that list and approach the shop or my own diagnosis, and say here are the tests I want you to run. Please give me written reports of your results.

So far the OP hasn't convinced me that conclusive test results were given to determine that the engine needs rebuilt or replacing.

OP all those codes may be the minor fixes that will make your engine good again, maybe not/ I'd be spending a few hundred on tests before I just capitulated to a $6000 plus repair.

The problem is that we don't know what the shop tested, just what their apparent conclusion was. We have partial information and some of it seems to conflict. So we have all this random internet diagnosis going on, and it is very unlikely to help the OP, IMO.

Troubleshooting is a methodical, step by step process. This thread is the opposite of that, with lots of random suggestions.

Time to go back to basics.

1) Is there a coolant leak? Has there been a leakdown test?

2) What is meant by 'pressure in the system'? Pressure from the rad cap? Pressure from combustion pressure leaking into the water?

3) 'Engine is toast' means nothing without knowing the why. But it suggests block or head damage, possibly a leak between one of more of the combustion/oil/coolant circuits. Something caused multiple shops to conclude that the engine was toast They could all be shysters, or we could be missing some key piece of the puzzle that is causing all this guessing and accusations of them being shysters. Could be something as simple as bubbles appearing in the coolant from a crack.

4) Is the thermostat operating correctly?

5) Is the water pump operating correctly?

The OP appears to require a shop to do the repairs. If so, then that shop also has to agree with the diagnosis. It is expensive to tell a shop how to do the diagnosis, it is better to let them do it and have them explain their conclusion (or suspicion, if they can't conclude for sure what it is). This assumes the shop is competent, and that the OP trusts them. If not, time to find another shop.

Well put JCL.

Sent from my SGH-i917 using Board Express

Heres a starting point hopefully that can help:
Car acting normal and driving ok. Pressed a/c button and turned down temp while in a drive-thru. Within under a minute, temp gauge shot over almost instantly, and steam came from under hood. immediately pulled car to the side and shut off. turned on 5 min later, temp gauge in the middle, car acting fine. Drove directly to the first mechanics shop, which luckily was only three lights away. by the third light, temp started to bobble towards the right a bit. didn't hit red. got to the shop, left it with them for the day. they said, need a new radiator. asked if it was drive-able for a couple days, because I had meetings to attend to that could wait (Senior at the Univ. of Miami). He said yes, just add water to the rad. I did so.

Time for new rad to be put in. Had it towed, just to avoid any possible overheating. car started and drove onto flat bad 100% fine.
get a call later saying they put the new rad in, drove it around the block, it overheated again. Was told there is now smoke coming from the exhaust, have yellow goop under oil cap. Told that the engine was done, and I need a new one.

With the 3rd shop I had it taken to, they said as a final diagnosis that there is compression in the cooling system. He was very stumped as well, said it was very weird. Couldn't give me an exact reason. He also said there was loss in compression in all cylinders.... which I don't get.
Said possibly, that when I had my #6 piston replaced (DISA valve broke, flew into cyl. 6, etc etc), that they might have either not torqued the head bolts down enough, or might have overtorqued them and stripped them, and the engine couldn't handle the stress from the long drive from new york.

However the car wont start what so ever. won't even crank or try to turn over. Seems like an electrical problem of some sort. Lights flicker, interior lights are very weak, the lock-beep is faint. Is it possible at all that during the course of things steaming and spraying, the alternator might have been effected?

Allstardt, Sorry you are having such a bad go of it. I am ready to throw in the towel on this engine. Regardless of the other symptoms you are still getting coolant in your oil. could be coming from a broken head or a broken block or something else that would render the engine toast.

I would shop the junk yards locally and online to find a used engine or a rebuilt one depending on the prices, mileage etc. Get one of your indies to install it. I shopped rebuilt engines a few months ago They have 4 to 5 yr warranties and come in between $2700 to $3500 for a 3.0. Used can be had for around $2000 plus shipping. probly $2000 to install.
If you like the car and the rest is in good shape... its decision time.

sounds to me like cylinder pressure is leaking into the cooling system, possibly blown head gasket , cracked head, cracked block.

you already got the cooling system pressure tested, so next i would have the cylinders pressure tested see what the cranking pressures are and that they are all equal.

based on the outcome of this and especially if 1 or 2 are low i would be removing the head for a visual and then crack testing.

if the motor starts and runs fine with a good idle and normal power it can not be to big a problem

BigWave, That's good advice if the OP can take it apart and test it himself or take the head and the block to a machine shop. If he can't do the work himself then, the labor to diagnose is going to dig the hole deeper.

4 mechanics say the engine is done. I translate that to mean that the cost to diagnose, Test and repair (what if you spend that money on diagnosis and the engine is found to be irreparable) the existing engine exceeds the cost of swapping out for a rebuilt engine with a 4 or 5 yr warranty, labor considered.

I would tackle a tear down because I would do the work and I would learn something new, but not everyone is like me.

blue juice
 

napa sells a kit to tell if co2 is coming out the cooling system its seals the over flow tank and You pass the air off the coolant and it changes color I would try that ?