Sway Bar Upgrade
 

I am looking at sway bars next, and haven't been able to sort out one thing in my online research. Here's the question: are the sway bars included in the Eibach kit that's available for E53s (34mm front, 26mm rear) an upgrade over the stock 2006 sport package or no? Thanks in advance.

My notes from Eibach say they are stiffer than the stock sways on the later model E53 sport package SAVs. So in short yes they would be an upgrade.

http://c1552172.r72.cf0.rackcdn.com/129251_x600.jpg

ECS Tuning

The kit you listed seems to be discountinued by Eibach (they sell front and rear separately now . . . if you can find the front bars) but it is an upgrade over the stock sway bars.

I was planning to get the same kit but just found out why you can't buy the kit on most sites. ECS Tuning has the kit listed on their site but not sure if it is available.

Anyway, The rep at autoanything.com just informed me that Eibach discountinued production of the front bars because there was a design flaw with the US production - he called Eibach. The German made version has no issue(s) but are hard to find and they don't carry it.

Looks like I'll be looking at a dif. manufacutre for a kit. Let me know if you know of any other companies. The only one I found that carries the sway bars for the X5 is Eibach.

BTW, I have an 05 4.4 - black!

Hey ECS . . . is it true that Eibach had a design flaw on the front sway bars? Can you call and confirm?

My notes say they changed the kits after the initial run, I don't have anything noting a design flaw most likely it was just a change in machining. The kits we have on the site are the most recent run of the kits.

I also have the front and rear bars available separately HERE is a link to all the sways for the E53. All parts are showing as available.

James with ECS

Why do people change front and rear sway bars?
I mean, the X5 understeers, so installing a stiffer rear bar would help by inducing a bit of oversteer.
Going with 2 bigger bars would make the X stiffer, but the understeer would still be present.

Cool. Looks like I'll be picking up a kit from ECS . . . your prices are competitive to other vendors.

I installed the Eibach kit on my '04 3.0 two years ago. I already had the 20" setup on it. The sport package 3.0 X5 was much more stiff after the upgrade and tracked more directly in highway transitions. Turn in was quick and body roll through the turn was significantly lower. The last thing I noticed was the added response I received from the X Drive front wheels. In pretty much any situation where I wanted to add throttle in a turn, I was able to do so sooner in the turn and with greater response from the driven front wheels than before. It makes sense- the vehicle is flatter, the wheels are more planted, the traction is better. But the application of it was surprising nonetheless.

I liked the setup so much that I moved the sways over to my 2004 X5 4.8is when I bought it last year (almost one year ago). I replaced the 3.0's sways with the ones from the 4.8is (same size for SPP 3.0's/4.4's). I drove the 3.0 to the shop with Eibach and back home without. I was surprised at how comfortable and responsive the 3.0 was with stock sways. It still provides a better balance than anything else its size. It felt much less aggressive, but still very capable.

On the 4.8is, the sways did not make such a difference. Or if they have, I just have yet to really feel it. One of the key differences in my two X5's was that the 3.0 was early production with the smaller sunroof. That means less weight up top to reel in with the 3.0. It's why *I* think the thing was so much more responsive than the 4.8is with all the glass. I love that smaller roof. I often see my next door neighbor tooling around in that old X5 and wonder if they've completely ground McDonalds fries into the seats. Could it be rescued?

Adding to the differences may also be the 4.8is' softer air suspension and drive by wire steering. The thing feels less connected to the road by design, so it would follow that the sways would improve, but not quite gain the same feel as they did on the 3.0.

With the Eibachs on the 4.8is, it still has all the grunt and it still grabs better out of a nice turn. Highway transitions are not as soft, and roll is reduced. But only so much can be done to challenge the affects of simple physics.

All in all, a nice upgrade for ~$500 in parts. The install is a killer, though unless you know some mechanics' tricks that I do not know. The way I looked at it, swapping the kit saved me about $400 after labor over just buying a new one for the 4.8is. It was worth it, and I like the results on both cars.

Two reasons why I know sway bars, for street cars, are bullshit.

1. You essentially tie down your independent suspension, and make it almost solid axle. So if you live anywhere similar to the roads of NYC, you might as well save your money just based on this and not read any further.

2. Your cars main control of body motions, is through the springs and shocks, sway bars negate their function by not letting them work properly.

On a street car, it is a mental thing. Do you really think German engineers, the ones who designed your car, the millions invested in RND, don't you think they would have put in bigger bars if they could make the Ultimate driving machine more ultimate?

Well I used to race cars when I had time. I also drive harder when I can, and push limits pretty often. How many of you drift your X through a turn, on the street, with cars parked on both sides? Yea sway bars will help you drift easier. Sway-bars will also kill you, and your car when the weather is bad, or snowy. You know that twisty on ramp you take all the time? Do you like to accelerate through it? Won't you be shocked when some sand or shit is on the road and your car slides out from under itself without warning?

Always remember this, if your car is not leaning, that means it is transferring all that load into the outside wheels, while your inside wheels if fighting to stay connected on the ground. The outside wheels are not getting loaded up (more grip), as when the car is leaning, they are getting pushed sideways. So your car won't be leaning, it will be sliding. You essentially will be making your tires into the springs, because you negated the real springs with sways. How many directions of grip, and function were your tires designed to do? Most rally cars don't use sway bars at all. They like their independent suspensions.

My old car used to spin out like a mofo with upgraded sway bars. Scary spin outs, as in no warning, and very sudden. My friend tracks his e30 with no sways at all. It is all in the spring / shock tuning / setup. A lot of race cars don't use sways at all. That's why they make 2000lbs springs.

Sway bars main function seems to be designed for less body roll, which is not a bad thing and works, in conjunction with soft-er springs and shocks. So that way you get a street car that can negotiate bumps and road imperfections without rattling your brain. At the same time, give you the sensation of stability with reduced body roll. But it is engineered as a package. One effects / balances the other.

All in all, don't mess with what was engineered by people designing a car as a whole. If you think sways will help you, put them on, but I guarantee you that if you learn how to drive closer to the limits, you will find that getting bigger sways is actually a downgrade, if not dangerous. I speak from experience.

Recap. Sways are bullshit on a street car, or SAV.
1. Make your ride worse.
2. Make your tires become the springs.
3. Do not improve handling. Maybe slow speed handling, whatever the hell that is.
4. Change dynamics of a car without addressing all the other points in the suspension geometry.
5. Long term durability? Questionable, I don't know anyone in an X with broken sway mounts, but time will tell as these cars become cheaper and more people buy these "upgrades". (your sways are not twisting as much, so your mounts and links, better be able to handle the extra twist put on them)

Long post, sorry.

Interesting take . . . thanks for sharing your experince. So my mods for my 05 4.4 will be limited to changing the front OEM struts to the Bilstein HD and loweing with the H&R springs for now. I'll hold off on the sways until I get a feel of the new suspension.

That's a good plan of attack. Get comfortable with the weight of the truck. Notice how it handles. If you think you need sways (you won't) then get them. Don't spend too much on them, because if you see how well you can trow the truck around without them, it will be scary with them.

I also recommend everyone get the rear sway only, for that over-steer effect.

Man, these trucks ride so stiff as is, I just can't imagine making it stiffer.

Wow. I've driven upgraded sways on my 1975 2002 for nearly 20 years. I drive it at the limit on the way to, during and back from Autocrosses. I've had them on my E39 for almost ten years. Adjustable in the rear, even. I even wrote about the differences in settings as I tried each one. It's real and it is up to the driver how he uses them. I drive my supercharged E39 the same way. Full tilt. And of course, on now two X5's for two years. I don't drive it as aggressively as the other two, but it's still closer to the limit than most people will push an X5.

I never once found them to be either dangerous or offset the balance of my cars. In fact, what they do is actually serve to balance the car over the engineered understeer. This is also why they added larger rear tires on most of the sport package cars. Instant under steer. Why do the BMW engineers design for understeer? Because they know people can't drive. They know that when Sally or Sammy gets in the sand as starts to feel the back end swing, they'll always do the wrong thing: lift the throttle.

What happens in a stock BMW is predictable. The rear end stops swinging around and Sally and Sammy feel resolved that their car saved them. In a way, it did.

On the other hand, if you DO know how to drive and you DONT lift when the back end swings around with your new sways, but you do the RIGHT thing: HAMMER the gas and let the throttle take you through the turn with appropriate steering input, you live. In fact, you just had FUN!

Upgraded sways serve to send LESS of the weight of your car from one side to the next. What that does is actually reduce the recoil of the spring- said another way, it adds balance to the possibility you can correct without over correcting and have a whole new problem on your hands- a spin and facing the wrong way.

The ride is more rough. Yes. That's what you pay. What you get in return is a more balanced car that behaves the way that YOU want it to. Not the way some litigation and cost avoiding pencil pushers in Bavaria say that it should.

hmm . . . both good points. Lump me in with Sally and Sam. I'm not too concern about ride quality. Any upgrade is going to give the vehicle a firmer ride. If I wanted a "softer" ride, I'd go with the stock sport suspension I have now.

Ultimately, it's a personal decision and somewhat safety issue as well (assuming I drive in snow and sand). My bad boy will only see the street so sways may be the next upgrade but for now I'm going with the firmer strust up front and lower springs and OEM for the rear since I can't seem to find any vendor that carries HD shocks that will work with the rear air suspension.

I'm surprised how much I hear this odd line of thinking around BMW forums - the BMW design gods have wrought the automotive version of the immaculate conception, they are perfect in every way, and you don't need...whatever it is. I just can't get on board, the logic doesn't hold up.

Every vehicle ever made is full of engineering compromises - even the product of German engineers. Nothing on any vehicle ever made is the best it can be. Every element in vehicle design trades off mass appeal against high performance, durability against cost, and a whole bunch more.

You are correct, but only because you know how to drive. At least that's what I am assuming because you too autocross and road race. Same here. But for the average X5 owner, this is not the case. I have seen some severe loss of control when "upgrading the sways".

Either way, if you think a 5k lbs truck can be the next lapping machine, go for it, just those that aren't experienced in loosing control, should take it easy in foul weather.

Yes compromises that balance the car for the average driver. Can the more advanced driver overcome those compromises before upgrading the sways? Yes you can, I for one know that I will never enlarge the sways on this car. There is too much negative, especially for me in NYC.

Once you upgrade the sways, I hope you also upgrade the tires. There is a reason track cars still stick to the road, with sways so thick and solid that you can't get any body roll.

Seems to me, then, that your last two posts contradict your original position - you're acknowledging that the engineers who designed my X5, with their millions in R&D, don't try to make their design decisions so the "ultimate driving machine" becomes more ultimate. Instead, they "balance" the car for the average driver and deliberately design in understeer, for example, to accommodate people who can't drive.

I think the actual info value in this thread is probably the idea to give thicker rears a try first and see whether that feels better than the designed-in understeer. Thanks for that. And FWIW, yeah, I've been around long enough to know better tires should come first - that OE design compromise sucked, too.

I don't think you'd want to oversteer the X5 with such a high center of mass.

I agree with Slick, adding sway bars for a street car is useless.

Not sure how I'm contradicting. I still stand by the fact that a 5k lbs SAV, or most other street / family / daily driven cars, do not need a sway bar upgrade. Maybe if you are ballsy enough, roads around you are in excellent condition, and you know what you need to do when the rear end tries to overtake the front end, then give it a shot. Maybe it's what you want out of your sav.

My 06 4.8is, is more than capable around turns with the stock sways. I am actually staying away from putting on sticky summer tires due to the fear of me flipping the truck.

Maybe the logic in your guys cars is different from the 4.8is. Maybe that's why it handles bad, or seems to be bad.

Great Post Slick and I totally agree about the sway bars but I also acknowledge that when the BMW engineers were designing the E53 they had the technology from 1997-1998 and when they do a facelift that's all it is, the guts of the X5 weren't changed until 2007. Technology is advancing daily, different compounds, alloys and engineering advances will always make an after market part better than it's older counterpart just because it's more modern, so I don't think you can write off an after market part just because the original engineers didn't do it.

My 5c

I still think we give the engineers way too much credit here. The engineers challenge is far from building the ultimate driving machine as enthusiasts would see it. Their challenge is to try to balance what they know they can do against the profitability of the product line and ultimately the company given the near term maintenance costs that BMW is giving away.

In mainline companies, the only cars built by engineers and design are concepts. Once the bean counters get involved the above mentioned compromise comes in to make the thing cost less than $5M. If it weren't for them, the i8 would be in hand built mass production now. And it would cost $5M. <-- sarcasm.

I kinda figured this would take off when I saw a general "engineers know best" slant developing.

But ya know, at the end of the day, the OP's ride is still a 6+ year old car that he wants to change the feel of. We don't have the next manned mission to Mars here.

As someone who personally doesn't think it's a big deal to play around with the products we buy and enjoy, I hope the OP takes a shot, puts some aftermarket goodies on, and tells us all what he thinks. :thumbup:

Sway bars be way up on the list of easily "reversible" mods if ya change yer mind.

Oh, and based on some of what I personally think are overly "creative," features such as all the various modes, iterations, wake ups, and stuff that just the self-leveling system has - - - well I personally think some of them engineers coulda used an extra girlfriend or 3 at certain key design moments. We might have less "Self-Level Inact" messages flying around. :D

By the way, I saw a rear Eibach bar for sale in the classifieds for $100. Not a bad price and easy to take off.

Of course.. this only if you know how to drive. :rolleyes:

lol. the knowing how to drive part from me is for the mentality that people get when they put on a sway. Oh shit my car is like on rails now. Supper dupper handler from nowhere. Yea yea, sure, the truck is the shit now. Problem is that rails don't have bumps.

How about trying a set of high performance tires first?

On my list of bullshit, Sways on road cars are a notch above drilled and slotted rotors.

I road race without sways. I have been able to accomplish my desired handling characteristics without sticking in a bar.

And the whole engineering thing needs more clarification. The car was made for sway with flex "X", components that connect sways to car have strength "Y". Like those bolts that hold the bottom plate, and the end-links. How about the endlink mounting points? How about every other suspension component that is now functioning in a different plane.

Now you are going to stick in a bar that has flex "Z". What are you doing to the other components? Again, pray for smooth roads, because when that person comes on here and says I searched, but my rattle is like nothing else on here, don't forget about those sways.

Engineering does not mean we are talking about just the one part. We are talking about all the parts working together. You guys seem to be hung up on the engineering point of a single component, when in fact you are effecting a lot of them with a "simple" sway bar upgrade.

Yes there is retarded shit on these cars that are beyond my comprehension. It made sense somewhere, to someone, at some point.

This is just my advice. Everyone with more apparent experience who thinks otherwise are welcome to try it out. Yes it will make your car have less lean. Just keep us updated on how you like it, and what effect has it had on other parts.

And for $100, it doesn't seem to be too pricey to try out. I mean how much are those rear control arms, $700 a piece.

I dunno, your wallet, your car. :dunno:

Found'Em! Got mine from Schmeidman. ~$135ea. +shipping.
Mine has the auto-leveling rear suspension only. These were the ONLY source I could find. And, surprise, they are Bilsteins. Oh Yeah!

Schmiedmann - Shock absorbers/springs and accessories for BMW X5 (E53) - New parts - page 3

Enjoy...

I just added the 23.5mm factory Sport rear bar to replace my factory 22mm rear bar and experienced noticeably reduced roll and flatter cornering.

Got the bar for $90 off ebay and IMHO, a great reduction in roll.

Also just put all 4 rebuilt bags and front struts on and will soon add the PowerFlex polyurethane bushings. I enjoy a flatter cornering vehicle but don't drive it aggressively.

A lifetime ago I did experience first hand what happens when you "over bar" a Datsun 280Z (in addition to stiffer springs and shocks) in the I71 curve in Downtown Cleveland. Fortunately, I was out in front of the traffic pack when I did a 360* spin out landing me on the right side shoulder :yikes: :yikes: :yikes:

I won't be doing that with the X!

Mike

Nice! I went from a sport bar to an eibach rear bar. I didn't notice much of an improvement. The sport bar is much cheaper.

I just installed the Powerflex polyurethane bushings on my front (29mm) and rear (23.5mm) sway bars.

Very noticeable improvement in anti-roll.

Also have them on my E46/330Xi.

I'm a fan!

Mike

In my E39, I first did the rear adjustable. It made the back more tail happy- which was fun but made rain an interesting time. I added the front bar to the E39 later. After I did that, I could adjust the rear to the most stiff setting with no trouble. It was still tail happy, but I had to put effort into upsetting the new balance between front and rear. Turn in was where I noticed it most.

On the two E53's, I did all four bars at once so I can't comment on the difference. But I would suggest that you might find a nice balance when upgrading the front bar on yours.

Thanks. I have been keeping my eyes open for a good deal on a front bar. I am also waiting to see how the car feels after I finish my suspension refresh. The body roll may be just fine with the coilovers.