transmission life
 

what is the most miles that have been pulled out of an 00-03 x5 4.4 transmission....I have an 03 4.4i with about 98k miles and feel like the transmission is a ticking time bomb. Everywhere I drive it i get scared about the transmission. I would just like some reasurance.

Thanks!!

160k on my 01 4.4 with original transmission. If I have the AC on shifts are smooth, if I turn the AC off I get the 2 to 1 lurch and I have no idea why that happens. Other than that everything else is good.

WOW....whats your secret, haha

Cigars and single malt...other than I can't take any credit. I bought my X with high miles and while I've replaced almost everything else on it, the tranny is still working. As a preventative measure I did replace the fluid (7qts) and filter about 10k ago but in all honesty I really could not tell any difference in driveability but I'm still glad I changed it, if that makes any sense.

I had the same hesitation about mine leading up to the 100k mark (albeit mine is the 3.0 with the GM France tranny). I drive it pretty soft, hardly ever use Steptronic or Sport mode. I replaced my filter and ATF at 100k, and 3k later, no signs of problems. Shifts are super smooth, it doesn't hold onto lower gears as long as it used to, MPG have improved, etc.

So it really is just a flip of the coin as far as I can tell. I believe the ZF trannys (like in the V8s) are a little more prone to failure, just according to my service shop, but there's really no sense in worrying over it. If it's going to happen, it's going to happen, and there's really not any preventatives you can do other than change the oil and filter as often as possible. That being said, I have an emergency credit card dubbed the "double-failsafe card" that will cover a rebuild.

Just my $0.02

so I am now 105k and have NOT change the Tranny fluid...is it recommended ?....they say dont touch the fluid...but idk what to do..whats your advice?.

I'd go ahead and say change it now. They say it's "lifetime" but that means the life of the tranny, not the vehicle. Ideally you change every 60k.

My indy said they won't touch them if there's over 100k on the car because a fluid change could do more damage, but I'd say you're fine to go ahead and change it, I wouldn't wait long though.

To a stealer ? Or my local indy?

Indy... dealer will tell you it's lifetime, but that's just so they can collect the $3500-5k from you when it comes time for a new tranny. Don't go off of what I'm saying though, you really need to do your research on this, these boards are FULL of tranny oil change stories and recommendations. I suggest you take a few hours and read through everything before you take it in. I have learned that one of the keys is to change it BEFORE you start having problems, by then it's too late and a fluid change will just exacerbate any problems you had.

Exactly what im thinking right now and defitely will read first about it or i may just say f*k it n go ahead... More reason to get the M edition. Lol

Over 150k miles on trans in my '03 4.4 Spt Pkg, 3 drains/fills (1 week of driving between each drain fill to minimize "new fluid shock") and new filter at 100k miles. I have thousands of miles towing a 6k lb trailer on the X too.

rather encouraging poast @150k, if I can get mine to go that far I'll be good.

BTW, are you on original xfer case?

The best assurance I can give you is this: If you like your X and plan on
keeping it, figure on setting aside about $4000.00 to replace your transmission
when the time comes. Now compare that to paying for a new X and you should
be feeling real good right about now.

I wouldn't change it. But I would put some money aside to pay for a new transmission (or a rebuild) when it eventually fails. I just don't believe that the fluid change extends the life, so it is throwing money down the drain.

If you do change it, make sure you use OE fluid, not a generic fluid that fits everything. Also use an OE filter, not an ebay special.

The dealer doesn't turn down the transmission fluid change job because he wants to sell a transmission at some future point. If he doesn't do it, you will just get it done elsewhere. He turns it down because he doesn't want you claiming a new transmission off him on service warranty if the transmission fails soon after the fluid change, and he has seen it enough times to have decided that it is better to forego the revenue from the potential fluid change than to risk it. He is actually putting his principles ahead of potential revenue. He could just take your money and get you to sign a disclaimer that any subsequent failure is on you, not him.

^^^^^^ exactly what dealer said..save the $$$ for a new tranny.....

thanks!!...i actually might just create a seperate account just for the transmission and stop worrying every time I go to give the X some gas

It's been overly discussed, but I say change it. No oil lasts forever.

As I stated in post #11, changed OE fluid at 100k miles and now at over 150k miles including ks of miles subjecting the trans to 12k lbs of truck/trailer weight to pull around. These +50k miles have been on Castrol UltraSyn Multi Import ATF that meets the LT 71141 spec. If non-OE fluid+100K miles B4 fluid change=trans failure, I would certainly have not be able to reach 150k miles on my the trans in my X.

IMHO, Me thinks that some who've had a trans fail after switching to a non-OE ATF had some other trans issues that caused the failure.

100% agree. My indies, 3 owners, and a ton of shops, had 1 trans failure after oil change in the entire time of running shops. They said they knew that trans was going to die anyway. When they changed the fluid, car would not move at all. They put old fluid back in, and it drove to the trans shop.

They say that BMW lifetime fluid bullshit is bullshit. Same as start the car and drive right away. Remember, BMW has to make the car last to 100K. After that its profits for them again when you show up with whatever is busted.

So don't change $80 worth of oil, and save up $4k worth of transmission. Yea, that logic is brilliant. Or maybe $80 worth of oil, with get you to 150k miles, instead of the usual 100K. Think about it guys.

The only BMW fluid in my truck is the coolant. At 100k miles Redline ATF went in the powersteering and transfer case, Mobil [1] 0-40 Syn in the engine, Ate SuperBlue Racing brake flush, Mobil [1] Syn 75-90 in the diffs, 10 ozs of Lucas upper cyl lube in every fuel fill, except for 2 fills each year (spring and fall) with Lucas Ethanol Fuel Conditioner/ Water Remover. X has no leaks ANYWHERE and NO gaskets or seals have been replaced. When cold started, X is allowed 30 secs of warm up B4 driving and NO WOT until coolant temt gauge has reached full temp. Truck is also give 30 sec cool down with ALL accessories off when pulled into the garage at night. When it sits for over 3 days, a charger is connected @ 8 amps and X is started after battery show 100%, If X is left for over a week the charger is connected in float mode. This is done on ALL my vehicles, never had any electrical issues other then a FSR and burned out turn signal bulb.

Several of us who have run shops, and seen many transmissions fail after a high mileage fluid change when no symptoms presented prior to the fluid change, would disagree with your position. Let's just agree to leave aside all the transmissions that already had problems, or had the wrong oil installed at a change, or had the job done incorrectly. Those problems can be corrected or avoided, and those samples aren't included in the failures I mention above, transmissions which were working fine.

That doesn't mean that changing the fluid will necessarily result in a failure. But it is statistically more likely than if you don't change the fluid that week.

Balance that against the cost of changing the fluid several times, just on the hope that your transmission will last longer. Without any evidence to support that theory. We don't even have evidence of fluid-related failures being a problem, yet the fluid is being changed anyway. So who has brilliant logic here?

If you would like to get into the downside of extended warm up periods at idle, happy to do so. Drive right away means wait 10 seconds for the idle to stabilize. Then drive. Every second of idling after that increases engine wear, and it is easy to do something about it. Just drive, which reduces the duration of the warm-up cycle. Not only will you save your engine, you will save money. Pretty hard to argue with that logic.

Changing the fluid has obviously worked well for you. You are also getting good life out of your transmission. I don't think the towing plays a big factor, since we aren't seeing a lot of heat-related failures, but it is additional data.

The one comment I would make is that the Castrol Multi Fluid is not certified to the LT 71141 spec. Castrol even say that; they say that it is OK to use it, but that what it is certified to is Dexron III. That doesn't mean it is a bad fluid, it could be perfectly good. But selling a Dexron fluid and saying that "it will be fine, trust us" is not the same as certifying your fluid to the LT 71141 spec. Particularly when ZF shops have seen numerous failures of their transmissions when they are operated on Dexron fluid, and they attribute the failures to the incorrect fluid. I think that your experience is good input for owners wanting to make a decision on which fluid to use. But those owners should also know what fluids are designed to the LT spec, and which are not.

Just saying. All my automatic cars, well even the manual cars, I have always changed the trans fluid. On automatics, always a drain and fill after the initial drain and filter. My lexus, was so "Lifetime Fluid", that you couldn't even change the damn filter without some serious surgery. And buying that filter was a nightmare. Every 30K I would drain and fill. Never had a hiccup with any of the "modern" transmissions. Yea the old 90s transmissions were a nightmare, especially the fords. Nothing helped them. Change fluid or not, they would still die.

And TiagX5 is a great example of transmission lasting with fluid change.

When that statement is made by a manufacturer, it's the consumers responsibility to consider the source. The source here being Castrol, a major lubricant supplier to BMW AG. I chose to take Castrol at its word and have no regrets at all, especially with the fact that the fluid is about 1/3rd the cost of ZF fluid.

As for the ZF shops placing trans fail blame on ANY fluid other then their own when found in a ZF trans. Do you really think if they got my trans with over 150k and found around 95% Castrol Multi-Import Syn inside they would acknowledge the FACT that it has lasted LONGER then it would have with their three times the cost "lifetime" fill?

Manufacturer backed repair shops like NOTHING better then to find ANYTHING non OE/OEM to place the fail blame on, this relieves them of taking any responsibility for the failure without even taking the effort of dropping the trans pan.

I wasn't referring to shops owned by ZF, I was referring to shops that regularly do ZF overhauls. We could refer back to RRPhil, who has posted here regularly, if you don't believe my experience.

See his post here: http://www.xoutpost.com/861674-post50.html

Castrol supplies engine oil to BMW, not transmission fluid. I wouldn't listen to the recommendation of their tire supplier, either if they said which transmission fluid to use.

If you don't like BMW prices, buy it from ZF for much less. Or buy it from Esso. Both sell certified oils with the correct friction modifiers.

My point is, if you accept as fact that there are, to Quote RRPhil...."(disastrous) consequences of filling a 5HP24 with Dexron on a number of occasions, the correct fluids clearly use different friction modifier packs.", then ALL 5HP24 transmissions that are using it WILL fail prematurely. Please explain how I am over 150k miles (well beyond the "lifetime" BMW say the trans should last), with 50k miles of it on the Castrol LT 71141, with thousands of miles of severe duty (12k lb truck/trailer GVW).
The lack of the alleged "friction modifiers" should have wiped out my trans long ago, not allowed it to be operating fine at over 150k.

FWIW, I found the LT 71141 fluid compatability info in the Bentley manual and the Castrol Product Data PDF showing BMW LT 71141 on page 2 of the attached. It's not defined as a Dextron Fluid at all.

138k on our 01 4.4 all original fluid.

I had the fluid changed on my 98 540i 4.4 automatic at 165k, and the tranny failed at 168k. There were no previous problems before changing fluid. It could certainly be a coincidence, but after my personal experience, I'm with JCL. I'm saving that $$ towards a new tranny someday. At the end of the day, the best insurance is having money in the bank!

These transmissions are all luck.. Heres my/family expirence on multiple cars

4HPXX (740i) - 155k-ish [Slow death, but lasted past 180k when it sold] F
4HPXX (540i) - 144k original fluid and still strong as ever
5HP24 (X5) - 125k then devloped infamous shudder and lockup problems still going @ 152K
5HP24 (540i) - TQ lock up problem (I kid you not, somehow water got into the trans and the parts developed rust) Rebuilt and runs amazing now.
5HP24? (Rover) - 77k I think, then randomly died the second day the new owner got it. (So they said) It ran perfectly long before owner sold it.
6HP26? (550i) - 84K running perfectly, but will change fluid soon for safety.

Frequent failures on the wrong fluid does not mean 100%. It means frequent. Just because one didn't fail doesn't mean that none will. Faulty logic.

Your own attachment defines that Castrol fluid as certified to Dexron III on page one. It lists many fluid specs on page two that it doesn't actually meet, but which it can be used as a substitute for, including the LT spec.

Not necessarlly. When a 5HP24 subjected to extreme duty is still running strong on a fluid that some claim does not have the "friction modifiers" necessary to operate/survive.

The "faulty logic" statement could be made when a trans failure is blamed on the Castrol LT71141 without a through "root cause" teardown/inspection. That inspection would need to show internal issues that have NEVER BEEN SEEN BEFORE ON ANY ZF "lifetime" fluid filled trans teardown/inspection after failure.

I am well aware of "faulty logic", seeing that my job requirements include worldwide travel for the aerospace industry (military and commercial), in order to define the root cause of failures and implement appropiate corrective actions.

On my 03 4.4i maintenance manual it said:

Replace transmission fluid every 100,000 miles
Replace spark plugs every 100,000 miles
Replace break fluid every 2 years.

Nothing about the transfer case and/or diff. I bought the oil for these and will get it changed out sometime next week.

Mine says the same. When I asked the dealer advisor why I needed to buy an entire BARREL of the ZF fluid to do the drain/fill on my X he replied that BMW did not update the manual to show the revised data and the transmission tag stating "lifetime" supersedes the manual info and therefore it is only sold in high volume. Was told by 3 different Florida dealers that the min volume sold is a barrel!!!

I'm in the camp to replace the transmission fluid periodically. Had the same "lifetime" fluid issue on my 1999 E320, and later MB issued a service advisory to dealers to change it every 60k miles. I've had my mobile mechanic change the tranny fluid on my 2005 X5 every 3 years.

Rather than beat a dead horse, I have a question. Early on in this thread someone posted $3500-5000 for a brand new dealer installed tranny. I was under the impression that the dealer would charge well over 10K for a brand new tranny, and that a rebuild (not from a dealer of course) would run in the 3.5-5k range. Has anyone had an actual quote or actual dealer new tranny installed for $5k or less?

The one from the dealer would be a rebuild as well. No one sells a new transmission, unless you get a new car with it. You will get a rebuild replacement under warranty even if you just drove off the lot.

The distinction is that a dealer sells an exchange rebuilt unit. They take your old transmission in as a core. The one you get has been reconditioned to new specifications. I would expect the price to be close to $7000 depending on the model.

When you go to a shop that rebuilds your transmission, it is usually less of a rebuild. It is on your own transmission, not a different core. They will focus on what failed, whether the valve body or torque converter or clutch plates. They are repairing worn parts, not necessarily returning the transmission to new specifications. That isn't a bad thing, rebuilding it can be cost effective and a good decision, but comparing it to the dealer exchange unit is apples and oranges.

I wouldn't define towing a trailer as extreme duty. The vehicle was designed to tow that weight without any additional modifications other than a hitch installation.

All transmission fluid has friction modifiers that impact clutch engagement right at the threshold. It is the primary difference between 10w hydraulic oil, and transmission fluid. The issue is that all friction modifiers have different characteristics, matched to the clutch engagement characteristics. If you put the wrong fluid in, the most likely result is poor shifting. Unless you are slipping the clutches enough to burn them, it will probably have little impact on transmission life. It will affect the quality of the transmission's operation however. If the slip is extreme, you get what RRPhil characterized as disastrous consequences. If you have made it a few thousand miles with no impact or noticable degradation of shifting, on non-spec fluid, I wouldn't worry about the friction modifiers too much.

The second issue is that purchasing a fluid that has not been tested to the manufacturer's standard means that you have no idea how long it will last. What are the quality of the anti-oxidants, the detergent levels, and so on? Who knows? All you really know is that it is wet, red, and of about the right viscosity.

I just don't see the reason to take the chance when the correct fluid is readily available.

I disagree that if you did a teardown of a transmission that failed when the incorrect fluid was used, you would have to find a failure mode that had never been seen before. You would have to demonstate a correlation between the observed failure mode and the properties of the fluid. As an example, if a normal failure was a bearing surface failure at 100,000 miles, and the same failure happened with non-spec fluid at 10,000 miles, it would be the same failure mode but much earlier. I haven't been to aircraft school, but I have taken applied failure analysis. Automotive and heavy equipment, in my case.

In the aircraft industry, I would think that using the correct replacement parts is a vital part of the certification process. Do aircraft maintenance technicians buy their supplies from the lowest bidder, not worrying about specifications? Or are they required to use things that actually meet those specifications according to independent tests? A rhetorical question.

How the see it in the birthplace
 

if you have never watched this regardless of which side of the fence you are on with the tranny argument ( i always learn a great deal by the way) this video is worth a glance. thumbs up if you like it.
:thumbup:

BMW E38 Transmission service by ZF Germany - YouTube

Thank you both for the clarification. Any idea what terms (years/miles) of warranty comes with a dealer installed rebuild, assuming the original warranty has expired?

200k miles
everything is original

24 months. Confirm that with your dealer, but that is what BMW advertises for remanufactured parts.

Thankyou all, and bumere90, is you x5 a 4.4i or 3.0i

We should do a thread: when did your trans die?

Mine died @ 110k.

3.0