Originally Posted by dinan e39 (Post 910194)

Beautiful car. Too bad it's missing 2 cylinders and 1.8 liters.

Originally Posted by dinan e39 (Post 910194)

Beautiful car. Too bad it's missing 2 cylinders and 1.8 liters.

Originally Posted by Bayerische E53 (Post 910196)

That's definitely a rare car and a pretty good deal to boot. I bought my 2005 6 M/T 6 months ago - AW Exterior/SW Interior with slightly fewer miles and I paid just under $20K. Granted, the interior and engine compartment on my car are absolutely flawless (those on this car are a bit rough) but still. I wish mine had no sunroof (I have a pano.) - it would be up there in rarity with this one. That said, what a wicked little car (although it does need some love).



That's one way of looking at it. Another way to look at it is to say "too bad the 4.8is is missing one pedal and a proper valvetrain/throttle operation unit." To me, pedal count + simplicity > cylinder or displacement count ;)

Originally Posted by Bayerische E53 (Post 910206)

^ (The sunroof cassette weighs 35lbs and the non-sunroof sheet-metal weighs 5lbs less than the sunroof version. Also, the tow capacity is 6,000lbs, not 5,000.)

In any event, I highly doubt the owner ordered it that way for weight's/performance's sake. I find it hard to believe that an enthusiast would be quite that daft. I'm sure he did it for simplicity. In a modern street car - any modern street car - I value simplicity over weight any day of the week. Forget fuel economy. If you're buying an SUV, you have no standing to complain about fuel economy.

There is all this talk about "drivers' cars." People think it's all about weight - rubbish; it's not - not in the 21st Century. In the 21st Century it's, at least, equally about simplicity and cleanliness. I say this because there's no such thing as "light weight" cars (i.e. "driver's cars" in the traditional sense) in the 21st Century that are actually usable (I don't want to hear any Lotus Elise talk; cars like that are far from usable). In the 21st century, "drivers' cars" have more to do with simplicity than with low weight. The new M3 weighs 4,000lbs. My brother just bought an E90 M3 stripper (cloth interior, no options, no sunroof); it weighs 3,700lbs. People might argue that that's a driver's car. In my opinion, it's as close as you can get to a usable "driver's car" in the 21st century. However, no matter how you cut the pie, a 3,700lbs "street sports car," no matter how well it handles, is just not a "driver's car" in the traditional sense.

Yeah, that's a tangent. Whoops.

To me, this X5 is sweet. I love the fact that it has a proper transmission and doesn't have gadgets and gizmos. I absolutely lover the sunroof delete. My only complaint is that it's not AW (yeah, I'm an AW whore). If there was such a thing as a "drivers' SUV," I reckon only this and the 1st Generation Porsche Cayenne GTS with the 6-Speed Manual would qualify. Of course, the GTS would totally one-up the 6 M/T X5 from a power perspective, but I'm just making a point. In any event, I bet the X5 is much simpler and lighter than the GTS. To me, that's more important than the power. Tomato/Tomahto, I'd think (especially if you put a suspension/brake/wheel package on the X5 that is as equally impressive as that which came standard on the 1st Generation GTS).

Originally Posted by SlickGT1 (Post 910221)

True. I was torn between the 4.8is and a 6MT, but couldn't live with 3.Slow. But, if the stars allign, there is a guy on the forum that might have a 6MT swap kit for us. So I pray every day he comes through.

Originally Posted by dinan e39 (Post 910234)

If a manual is so perfect, why are all manufacturers going away from a manual?

Originally Posted by Bayerische E53 (Post 910206)

^ (The sunroof cassette weighs 35lbs and the non-sunroof sheet-metal weighs 5lbs less than the sunroof version. Also, the tow capacity is 6,000lbs, not 5,000lbs......

Originally Posted by dinan e39 (Post 910234)

If cars these days are so heavy, why do you not want the most power available in the model offered? With the X5, the mileage is essentially the same from the 3.0 to the 4.8. To argue otherwise is silly. When you say a proper transmission, what exactly do you mean? If a manual is so perfect, why are all manufacturers going away from a manual? It's all about preference for the individual. There's no such thing as "proper" or perfect.

Originally Posted by Skyline (Post 910254)

For one thing, automatics are getting better and better. Aside from the computer controlled clutchless manuals, (DSG, SMG or whatever; these shift faster than humanly possible), regular auto boxes are getting SO much better. More gears for better gas mileage, and they are much better at putting themselves in the right gear and anticipating your needs. Many conventional automatics now rev-match on downshifts, a big pet peeve I used to have. I drove a Carrera S a few years back with Tiptronic, (lacking this rev matching). I downshifted just before the apex of a corner, and the rear wheels locked up for a moment. I got quite sideways. No thanks. Today's Tiptronic would rev-match perfectly. From a performance and control standpoint, the advantages of a manual are shrinking, maybe already gone in many cars. All that's left is the extra hassle.

I wonder if so many V8 X5 owners would still be longing for a manual if the automatic were up to the best of today.... AND reliable.

Originally Posted by epdarks (Post 910303)

It seems that manufacturers are going away from manual transmissions due to consumer demand, not because the mfg's are pushing autos over manuals. As the autos and sequential manual boxes get better, as Skyline said, more people want them.

Now, in my humble opinion, the underlying force behind this demand is that people like "new tech", the latest and greatest, they are buying these new autos not only for the function but to be ahead of the technology curve.

As tech gets better and better we will reach a point of diminishing returns. In the example of SMG/DCT transmissions... they will hit a peak balancing fast gear shifts with the ultimate usability day to day.

As all consumer choices come in cycles, the "fad" of the high-tech SMG gearbox will blow over. What happened to just having fun behind the wheel, regardless if you are .1 seconds slower to 60 MPH?

IMO, manual transmissions will see a resurgence in the near future. With that, rare manual transmission vehicles will become more desirable in a sea of automatics.

Just a theory in my head, take it with a grain of salt, but I believe there will always be a core group of people seeking to purchase the good old fashioned 3 pedal manual transmission.

Originally Posted by TiAgX5 (Post 910307)

BMW info states the E53 3.0L MT trailer limit is 5000lbs, only the V8s are rated for 6000lbs. I guess you're making that face after SlickGT1 post? It's no suprise there are MT V8 X5s out there, these same engines were mated to MTs when installed in 5 series vehicles.

Originally Posted by Bayerische E53 (Post 910343)

Depends. Manual 3.0s were rated at 6,000lbs. I also believe that the Facelift autos got bumped up to 6,000lbs as well. You are correct, however, that the pre-facelift 3.0s were rated at 5,000lbs. Never the less, I towed my 5,000+lbs trailer with my pre-facelift 3.0 without incident over the course of 15,000 miles or so. The weight limitation on these cars is underrated.

Originally Posted by TiAgX5 (Post 910347)

BMW & Edmunds.com both show a 5000 lb tow limit on pre-facelift E53s with the manual trans. I am well aware of the underrating, I've towed a few boat/trailer combos over 7500 lbs, in the mountains no less.

Originally Posted by Bayerische E53 (Post 910343)

As I said, I don't care too much about power. Unless you're going off-road (whether in the woods or racing), it is my opinion that big power is really unnecessary. Look at the big AMG MLs and the X5/6 M/// - who needs that kind of power to cart the kids/wife/groceries around? Plus, you need special equipment and a degree in nuclear engineering to do anything more complex than a god damned oil change. It's not my thing. As I said before, TO ME, simplicity is more important than power. Not hating on anyone with the "big" cars (except the people who buy them for the simple fact of saying "look how much power I have." Lame and unimpressive.) ... it's just not my cup of tea.



Very good post. This is all true.




I agree with everything you just posted. It's the consumer rather than the car companies that is sending traditional things to the way side. I mean, let's get real here - the new BMWs have the ability to "tweet" from the iDrive. Get fuckin' real, will ya? Look at BMW's current customer-base majority - it's comprised mainly of the new generation of kids and soccer moms with nothing to do but gossip on facebook and twitter. What do you think BMW is going to do? They gotta out-sell Audi!

Seriously, I'm still trying to find the importance and need of a 500hp, 5,000lbs luxury SUV. Even more difficult to find is the importance of a transmission that allows that very SUV to shift in 150 miliseconds. The consumer loves saying "I laugh at your car...my SUV does 0-60 in 4.2 seconds - with a standard manual it would only do it in 4.5 seconds!" Again, I respectfully state the following rhetorical statement/question: "Get fuckin' real, will ya?"

People love showing off how tech-savvy they are, how cutting-edge they are, how cool their "stuff" is, how powerful their engines are, and how fast their transmissions are. In my opinion, these types of people are on the cutting-edge of showing off and fucking about ... that's all.

Yeah, I'm an old fart - so?

Again, not hating on the "big" cars. The X5M, for instance, is a stellar truck. It's just too much bling-bling and complexity for me.



Depends. Manual 3.0s were rated at 6,000lbs. I also believe that the Facelift autos got bumped up to 6,000lbs as well. You are correct, however, that the pre-facelift 3.0s were rated at 5,000lbs. Never the less, I towed my 5,000+lbs trailer with my pre-facelift 3.0 without incident over the course of 15,000 miles or so. The weight limitation on these cars is underrated.

Originally Posted by dinan e39 (Post 910393)

It appears that BMW is not the car for you anymore. I am the individual that enjoys a lot of power and is not interested in fuel economy. I know that a 5000lbs SUV isn't going to handle like an M3. I've got 2 kids and don't feel the need to try and race the STI crowd. You need to tone down your language in your posts and realize that we all have opinions about what these cars are about. We're all different and that's what I like about this site. It's cool if you think your 3 liter 6 MT is the best out there, I respectfully disagree.

Originally Posted by Bayerische E53 (Post 910206)

In any event, I highly doubt the owner ordered it that way for weight's/performance's sake. I find it hard to believe that an enthusiast would be quite that daft. I'm sure he did it for simplicity. In a modern street car - any modern street car - I value simplicity over weight any day of the week. Forget fuel economy. If you're buying an SUV, you have no standing to complain about fuel economy.

There is all this talk about "drivers' cars." People think it's all about weight - rubbish; it's not - not in the 21st Century. In the 21st Century it's, at least, equally about simplicity and cleanliness. I say this because there's no such thing as "light weight" cars (i.e. "driver's cars" in the traditional sense) in the 21st Century that are actually usable (I don't want to hear any Lotus Elise talk; cars like that are far from usable). In the 21st century, "drivers' cars" have more to do with simplicity than with low weight. The new M3 weighs 4,000lbs. My brother just bought an E90 M3 stripper (cloth interior, no options, no sunroof); it weighs 3,700lbs. People might argue that that's a driver's car. In my opinion, it's as close as you can get to a usable "driver's car" in the 21st century. However, no matter how you cut the pie, a 3,700lbs "street sports car," no matter how well it handles, is just not a "driver's car" in the traditional sense.

Originally Posted by TiAgX5 (Post 910438)

My disdain with porky "high performance" production cars has driven my sons and I to Dallas Karting Complex. Fastest rental karts in TX, 75mph Sodi RX 250cc on a .8 mile road course. Driving my 700hp, 3200lb Viper (4.5lbs per HP, sport bike power to weight) for over 100,000 miles in the state of FL has made me aware that the PD will do everything in their power to make sure you pay big for any vehicle operation that even look slightly spirited. Tampa PD almost towed my Viper during a traffic stop because the 5 point harnesses where not approved DOT!!! DKC rocks.

Practice with Connor Wagner at Dallas Karting Complex - YouTube

Originally Posted by FSETH (Post 910441)

That's the thing, 700hp Viper with steam roller sticky rubber or 200 hp 2,800 lb BRZ with skinny tires. If you are driving the Viper spirited you are going to draw much more attention than the BRZ. Plus, you have to really work the BRZ and that is where the fun lies. You don't even have to try in the Viper. Not knocking the Viper at all, but the 400 pound lighter, way underpowered BRZ would be considered more of a drivers car, imo.

Originally Posted by SlickGT1 (Post 910450)

Yea you might think the BRZ is more of a drivers car until you drive the Viper. I got the pleasure to once. I still think it is a huge pig with a very huge engine, but it is by no means any less of a driver car. That pig will punish you like you can't imagine. You really have to work in a viper.

Originally Posted by Bayerische E53 (Post 910452)

So true. From what I hear, Vipers tend to make drivers into one of two things: heros or dummies (don't crucify me - this is a quote from several viper owners who club race vipers).

Originally Posted by Bayerische E53 (Post 910452)

So true. From what I hear, Vipers tend to make drivers into one of two things: heros or dummies (don't crucify me - this is a quote from several viper owners who club race vipers).

Originally Posted by TiAgX5 (Post 910461)

4.5 lb per hp with no traction control, ABS, stability control is by no means not a drivers car. There was more then one time the rear 335s broke loose in 4th gear at speeds over 100mph on dry pavement, even at DeSoto speedway launching in 2nd on street tires I would turn low 11s backpedaling the throttle the entire 1/4 mile. IMHO ANY vehicle that has electronic driver aids that cannot be 100% disables from the drivers seat is NOT a drivers car. No sofware developer/desk jockey is going to decide how much car I can handle!

In addition, the first gen Viper was the first production vehicle in the world that could pull over 1G in a turn right off the showroom floor.

Originally Posted by FSETH (Post 910463)

Are we talking about overall drivers cars or drag racing? These are two different things?

Originally Posted by TiAgX5 (Post 910468)

Last gen Viper set the track record for production vehicles at the N'ring, right out of the box with the same shock, spring, sways, tires, wing settings and alignment setting as the Vipers sold thru dealer network. End of discussion! Still the fastest to this day. Subaru ever gone to the ring to set a time?

Originally Posted by FSETH (Post 910470)

Yikes. Please tell me you don't think fastest lap times = best drivers car.

Originally Posted by TiAgX5 (Post 910475)

Never said that. I will say that there are some hardcore owners of sport cars that like a car that can pull over 1G at speeds the Subaru cannot even attain. The Subi is nice, just not for me. I have done the run from St Pete to Orlando FL in under 30 mins (in the wee hours), are you telling me with the rolling hills and curves on 275 and 4 that too no driving skill and the viper is not a drivers car (over triple the posted HWY limit)? With the subis top speed it could not even even do that if it was a straight line closed road. LIfe begins at 150. The Subi is like a go cart for the street, I like shifter carts but not on the road or a big road course.

Originally Posted by FSETH (Post 910482)

I am not sure where to start. I guess first off, going over triple the posted highway speed on public roads is asinine. I don't care how many DE's, Club Races, Indy 500's, etc. you have participated in.

Also, pulling 1G at 150 mph does not make a drivers car. Of course it takes skill to drive like that, but once again, it does not automatically mean it is a drivers car. Just because a car can go 150+ mph and it takes skill and concentration to keep it under control at those speeds is irrelevant as to if it is a drivers car or not. Example, in around 1998, Car and Driver did a best handling car edition, where the e36 M3 was voted THE best handling car at any price. It beat the Viper GTS and a bunch of other faster, more exotic cars. In the corners, the Viper had higher G's. Once again, highest ultimate grip does not mean best overall handling or driver's car.

On any public road can you actually row through the gears like you would be able to in the BRZ? You think your 335 width tires would break loose a bit and be as much fun as the skinny BRZ tires around a curve (not mashing the throttle)? At reasonable speeds, the 400 lb lighter BRZ would be a blast on switchbacks, would the Viper even break a sweat? This is why some of BMW's best drivers cars are lightweight and relatively under powered. Cars like the 2002, e30 318is, 325is, etc. No nannies, lighter weight, momentum cars that you had to really work at to drive fast. The reason you drive 150 on the highway is probably because it is rather boring to drive that car at reasonable speeds. That's just not the case with some of the others.

Originally Posted by TiAgX5 (Post 910461)

4.5 lb per hp with no traction control, ABS, stability control is by no means not a drivers car. There was more then one time the rear 335s broke loose in 4th gear at speeds over 100mph on dry pavement, even at DeSoto speedway launching in 2nd on street tires I would turn low 11s backpedaling the throttle the entire 1/4 mile. IMHO ANY vehicle that has electronic driver aids that cannot be 100% disables from the drivers seat is NOT a drivers car. No sofware developer/desk jockey is going to decide how much car I can handle!

In addition, the first gen Viper was the first production vehicle in the world that could pull over 1G in a turn right off the showroom floor.

Originally Posted by TiAgX5 (Post 910468)

Last gen Viper set the track record for production vehicles at the N'ring, right out of the box with the same shock, spring, sways, tires, wing settings and alignment setting as the Vipers sold thru dealer network. End of discussion! Still the fastest to this day. Subaru ever gone to the ring to set a time?

Originally Posted by TiAgX5 (Post 910347)

BMW & Edmunds.com both show a 5000 lb tow limit on pre-facelift E53s with the manual trans.