Quick alignment question
 

Hey guys,,

Did some searching, havent really come to a definite answer,,


Some alignment places / people say bmw only place that can do it cause you have to load the car etc,


Others say they have gone to tire shop chains etc and came out fine.


The place i wanted to go to has a hunter hawkeye machine, but he said he couldnt do the X ( i want to take it there anyway if i insist i want it done and he will do it ) but he said he didnt have "proper equip".


So basically can i get a good alignment without the "loading" or whatever special procedure is supposedly needed, and also have read its the toe that kills the inside of the tires,, so if i go to this shop, get my toe set as close to zero as possible, and i can keep the factory camber?

Last thing is, does it matter if my current tires are worn when i go get my alignment (only in rear), or it wont matter really? In the next month planning on getting new ones, but still want to finish these off good.

I got mine done on a Hawkeye at an independent tire shop, came out fine. The software should have a procedure to load the car, or should be able to calibrate the alignment without the weights. I'd be wary of any shop which didn't sound confident enough to align an X5.

I would recommend you get all settings (toe, camber etc) within spec, camber I would get set to as little as possible, especially in the rear, I think low end of rear camber spec is -1.0. Camber adjustment is on the inner eccentric bolt of the lower swingarm, toe adjustment is at the inner eccentric bolt at the frame on the straight forward position upper control arm (the guide link)

On my X, they were able to get my rear camber set to -1.5 on the left rear and -2.8 on the right rear (obviously I have some pieces to replace back there), so I had them set rear toe to +.01 (closest to zero) to counteract the extra camber that couldn't be dialed out.

Your tires will wear fine with camber set within spec, just make sure the toe in the rear is set either at minimum spec or close to zero if you have extra camber. The toe will shred your tires in combination with the negative camber, the camber won't do it alone.

Yeah tell me how i found out..... when it was too late lol, so im just killing them now, wish i had found out earlier, but when i did it was already alot more worn then outside.

http://i829.photobucket.com/albums/z...psc8c1d110.jpg


That was like 1.5 months ago

Mmmmm that's tasty. I'm betting you probably have -2.5 camber on each side and +.15 toe on each side, those numbers might even be conservative because you're lowered.

That may be another reason it might be hard to get camber within spec, if the shop tells you that just tell them to get the rear as low as you can get the camber and zero out the toe, you should be good after that.

Do you know if i still get the alignment with these tires on it wont matter for when i get new ones? Or can it be off or something. (Im assuming not)

why not wait until the new tires are mounted to get an alignment?

It might be very minute differences but I would imagine new tires with fresh tread might affect the alignment specs, and it might just be my OCD but if your current meats are already FUBAR'ed, just roast the shit out of them while some Allentown teen mom groupie is getting a test drive in the back seat (with rear seat heaters on obviously)

LOL

hahahah lmao, there actually was girl from my HS i believe on that show,

but thats the plan, the day i have new tires at my house, taking out fuse 46, and gonna make a lil vid of the rears going bye bye lol, didnt see one with the X5 yet.

I know there was that's why I said it LOL, my wife dvr's all the seasons lol its the greatest form of birth control for her to watch that show (I have no interest in children at this point in my life)!

I have had several independent shops that wouldn't align an X5. I have mine aligned by the dealer and request a color version of the before and after sheet to have a history.

It will make a difference (very little) in alignment between new and worn tires. I would wait, no reason to do it now.

FYI-Aligning your X outside of BMW specs will change the handling. Less negative camber will reduce the turning grip and turning response but that doesn't matter to many.

Thanks bcredliner, im aware of changing camber/toe etc has different effects, with any car i usually drive i much prefer oversteer versus the understeer plow you get with the X, especially if you get on it hard in the turn literally feel the front lift up lol.

I guess im going to wait till i get new tires mounted, but ive also read people had problem with dealers taking the toe out and wont adjust it "out of bmw spec"

:iagree: I hate it when I can't get the backend to hang out. I have never tried to go outside specs but I always go to the spec that contributes most to the handling I prefer, which always includes lots of negative camber. I have never needed to push to the point I find out which happens but if I did I would adjust until I had oversteer.

Dealers won't adjust outside BMW spec, but indy shops will, they just need to know the spec you want.

Mine was adjusted to spec on a hawkeye, when the shop notified me they could not get the rear right camber low enough to be within spec, I told them that's fine, get it as low as you can go and then zero out the toe in the rear so I can have less wear on the insides of the rear tires.

They knew exactly what I talked about and gave me a printout when they were done. That's why I ended up at the indy shop because I had a feeling if I went to BMW, they were going to charge me for an alignment that is done incorrectly because of a worn suspension part in the rear, then try to make me "not pay twice" for the alignment by charging me ridiculous pricing to get worn parts repaired at the dealer on the spot.

My alignment story at this local indy tire shop actually spans 2 occasions. The first time I went there, they stopped and couldn't align the car because the tie rod adjusters in the front were seized, obviously wanted to know if I wanted them to fix it for $400 bucks on the spot. I said no, I'll go home and replace them myself ($140 for both sides, free labor), and bring the X back. So I was only charged 15 bucks for an "alignment check" that day, and 2 weeks later when I brought it back I paid my normal alignment fee ($115).

Independent shops tend to be a little more flexible with stuff like that I've learned.

If the shop is hesitant to take the X, why bother even *insisting on it*. Not sure how much a alignment runs in your neck of the woods, but a alignment runs about $160+......and a decent tech will properly dial it in. Anyone can get it in the *green*.

My shop does preload the car, but bear in mind, that it's just a *alignment*. You can drive it off the rack, take it for a spin, throw her on the rack, and the readings WILL be different.

With that said, how about a hrs drive up to VAC ? Is that a option.

I have a shop by me i take all the other cars too, its a chain store, but they do it good, and will do what you ask, for example on my audi i had im adjust the rears to maximum camber i could, and config the toe with it, he did it no prob for me.

And all the other cars have been done there and were done right as well, which is why i was surprised when i called in and they said "we cant do it" even though i know they can cause other people got them done elsewhere then bmw dealer on the same machine.

Another reason i want to go there is because like $150 gets me 3 years worth of alignments whenever i need them no extra charge, and in 3 years i bet i will end up replacing certain suspension components.


jsoto - thanks for vac suggestion, they are in philly i believe? Do you know what they charge? Any warranty type thing like i have with the place above ^. ?

Dealer alignment costs me $195. One time the service advisor came to me and told me they couldn't get it within specs and asked me if I wanted them to stop and pay for time spent or continue to get it as good as possible. They told me what they thought was wrong but did not refuse to finish the job. The time spent would have been $115.

Don't know their rates or ~warranty~

For me, I get alignments on all the cars at least 1X a year. Maybe 2 if I have some extra play money. There are only 2 shops I would go to for a alignment. They all are about $160+ for a alignment but they spend a good 1.5-2hrs+ on average tweaking/dialing it in.

Any monkey can *get* it in the green. Doesn't necessarily mean it's dialed in....

I would rather pay $150 and get a great alignment than one that offers one with a 3 year warranty. Somethings got to give.......at the cost of labor. YMMV.

I can only suggest to deal with all worn suspension components before getting a alignment. Otherwise, you're just p1ssing money into the wind.

As now now i have no signs of worn components, but im expecting it in 3 more years definitely, which is why i like that warranty thing.

And if you look at it, it is a "chain" store but they know most people will forget or not come back, and just use it to attract business.

Then the people like me who will use it and go back lol.

What is your definition of "dialed in".

Anyone wondering, just called vac

$160 no warranty etc.


Its in philly as well, about 70 miles for me, can get there 40 min or so but thats another $30 gas and 8 or so in tolls. so more like 200

Count me in with you who have way more negative camber on the right rear - I think that makes four of us on this thread. Other than the fact you tend to make harder turns to the right instead of the left because your body can lean against the door, does anyone have any ideas as to why the right rear seems to be worse?

I've also noticed the right rear is typically the corner where the most squeaks are reported as well.

2002 X5 3.0 242,000 miles
2005 325i 107,000 miles

lol my left is actually the same, not really any diff. Just took pic of the right.

What do you mean by "right rear seem to be worse"?

For the most part its the rear swing arm ball joints that are worn out if you are having troubles adjusting camber in the rear within spec, after that I would check out the rear upper control arm (wishbone), and perhaps the rear subframe bushings after that.

It's all about on/off ramps I think that always causes the right rear to be more worn before the left, but that's just a theory of mine.

@bcredliner - The people who listed existing cambers generally had right rears exhibiting a larger negative value than on the left rear. In my case, the shop was barely able to move the right rear in a positive direction far enough to get it within the allowable range on the last alignment. And my right rear has a wonderful squeak anytime the ambient temperature is under about 95 degrees, that is clearly audible across three lanes of traffic on I35 in downtown Dallas, but that's another $586 story!

2002 X5 3.0 242,000 miles
2004 325i 107,000 miles

and of course all this becomes super critical once you go to 315 series tyres, wider the tyre the more they suffer from excessive camber, so for me its a balancing act between good cornering ability and uneven tread wear.

Wider tires, alone, don't change the amount of negative camber.

The distribution of vehicle weight applied across the tire width (contact patch) will change with wider tires, resulting in greater inside tire wear. Wider tires will have more weight on the inside of the tire. The increased weight causes more friction resulting in increased wear. Inside tire wear will increase further if the the distance from the rim to the ground (aspect ratio) is greater. In either case, less negative camber would be necessary to decrease the friction on the inside of the tire, reducing inside tire wear.

Wider tires often mean wider rims are added at the same time. All wheels are built so that a particular amount of inches of are from the center of the wheel (offset). If the new wheels are a shorter distance on the backside of the wheel the the previous wheels negative camber will increase. The best practice when changing wheels that cause a change in offset is to have the vehicle aligned to your desired camber.

If you keep the existing wheel and go to wider tires and/or rims because they look better rather than to improve handling, you can either have the vehicle aligned at or less than specs, or, measure the tread wear across the width of the tire every 200 miles or so and depending on the inside verses outside tire wear, increase tire pressure a small number of pounds to slow inside tire wear.

My goal is handling. I am always at the maximum, within spec, negative camber. Note- I have the original style 87 rims, tire size and aspect ratio.

Unless the center of the wheel to the ground is higher on the right side for some reason, or from doing something like hot laps around a NASCAR track, the wear on the right side should be the 'same' as the left side.

Something is not right if the suspension is squeaking and that is likely part of the $586 story.

The $586 was the quote to replace the lower, camber adjusting bushing. But to me, the squeak seems to be higher, perhaps the upper arms.

2002 X5 3.0 242,000 miles
2004 325i 107,000 miles

Difficult to pinpoint suspension noises, especially when it only happens while driving. Once in a while a spray of WD40 will make it briefly go away but it is very frustrating when you spray one part a time and never find the problem. A second opinion is far easier.

I try to never replace parts to narrow down a problem unless they are living on borrowed time or are very inexpensive. Suspensions are a different story. I know how long the current suspension has been in place. Since the lifecycle of most moving parts are about the same, it is already torn down and cost of multiple alignments adds up fast I bite the bullet and do all of both sides at one time.

Hopefully the shop was able to make it squeak on the rack so you have some confidence they are on target or at least take a drive with you to hear it.

There are so many posts here where someone has replaced several parts and problem still exists. I hate that. Are there any more symptoms you haven't that might generate more input for you?

Difficult to pinpoint suspension noises, especially when it only happens while driving. Once in a while a spray of WD40 will make it briefly go away but it is very frustrating when you spray one part a time and never find the problem. A second opinion is far easier.

I try to never replace parts to narrow down a problem unless they are living on borrowed time or are very inexpensive. Suspensions are a different story. I know how long the current suspension has been in place. Since the lifecycle of most moving parts are about the same, it is already torn down and cost of multiple alignments adds up fast I bite the bullet and do all of both sides at one time.

Hopefully the shop was able to make it squeak on the rack so you have some confidence they are on target or at least take a drive with you to hear it.

There are so many posts here where someone has replaced several parts and problem still exists. I hate that. Are there any more symptoms you haven't that might generate more input for you?

As long as I have even tire wear and no handling issues, I'll let it go. But like I mentioned, the last alignment resulted in the right hand side having 0.4 degrees more negative camber than the left, so I may not be that far away from a replacement of the lower bushing. I figure that will be the best time to isolate the squeak. Hey, at least it's not an electrical problem, right!

2002 X5 3.0 242,000 miles
2004 325i 107,000 miles