winter tires?
 

I am sure this has been discussed but the search function is coming up empty. Do you guys find winter tires to be necessary for driving in the snow. I am switching over from a 325xi which I thought handled awesome in the snow. Yesterday we got our first snow and I had to take the old xi out for a test drive after doing vanos seals (before I sell it) naturally I had to play around in the snow a little. After finishing up I grabbed the x5 to see how she would like the snow and it sort of seemed like it didn't have the same grab on stops as the xi but better traction from a take off. Not sure if the braking is due to the fact that there is a little less tread left on the x5 tires or if maybe this vehicle just needs winter tires to handle properly. I have a set from the PO (who lived way further north than me) that I was planning on selling but I am wondering if I should think twice. He only had the tires and not rims so it is sort of a hassle.

Well the X is heavier, has extremely wide tires etc, I can imagine how the 325 might "feel better" in the snow.

Skinnier, lighter tires will grab better in the snow given that I'm imagining you have all seasons on both. I hope you don't have summer tires on the X5 (Michelin Diamaris come to mind).

Also, worn down all season tires on the wider wheels of the X5 will definitely perform sub-par in the snow, compared to a 325xi. What is the tire spec on the 325? Probably about a 225 section width, whereas the X5 is 235 if 17s, 255 if 18s, and 275 on the front if 20s!

I don't have complaints about my X in the snow, but then again if I drove it to be a blizzard carver, I would buy a dedicated winter set. My style 168 staggered 20s are equipped with Toyo Proxes STII tires, which are decent in light snow when warmed up adequately, but I definitely take it easier if there is snow on the roads. My tread depth is good on them, but just the massive width of the tires is more of a hinderance than anything in snowy conditions. However, for the amount of times I need to actually drive in snow each year, it's a non-issue for me. We live off of main county roads, not like out in the woods, and our commute is straight up highway miles, so those roads are always taken care of.

In order to find road conditions that my X couldn't handle, I'd literally have to be driving away from civilization out into the sticks of West Jersey or something in order to really feel the "need" for snow tires.

I've only had my X for 1 yr...but one of the 1st things I bought last year were a set of dedicated snow tires (235/60/18 Michelin X-Ice xi2)...and I don't know how the all-seasons would handle in snow (my assumptions/thoughts were ditto what RB said in the post above)...but the dedicated snow tires made driving in last year's winter weather totally UNEVENTFUL...which is what you want.

Dedicated winter tires not only help with traction for acceleration, but also help with turning and most importantly...stopping. The tires you have mounted are as important as the traction control technology your vehicle has...in fact, dedicated winter tires helps xDrive/ABS/DSC perform their best.

The very last storm last winter (March/2013) dumped approx 15" of snow...and the temps were going to go up around 50 °F within the next few days...so instead of shoveling & snow blowing like my neighbors...I backed down the drive and up the street (totally unplowed) with no issues at all...as they all stood there...probably waiting for me to get stuck. :)

The pic below is what I saw when I peeked out to see how much snow had fallen and why I awoke to the sound of snow blowers buzzing away. :)

Depends on how much snow you get per year and how well the roads are taken care of when it does snow.
My E30 325iX I drove for several years taking it skiing to the mountains always just on all-seasons, never had any problems as long as there was less than 12" of unplowed snow. But, it always required some planning ahead for stopping and sometimes turning. Then I started taking my older daughter up to the mountains with me, so I finally bought some Blizzaks, and I'll never go back! Good studless winter tires are a must. If you can't stop, you shouldn't start.

What year/model X5 do you have? You should update your signature to show that, it will help with suggestions/diagnosis.
Pre-facelift X5's have a not so great open differentials (front/center/rear) and rely on traction control for moving. Facelifted X5's have Xdrive, which at least gives some proper power distribution (front/rear). If you have an early X5, I've heard some embarrassing stories of getting stuck at the bottom of slippery hills with just one tire spinning. Traction control requires at least 2 wheel speed signals to work.

:D ...that is the same decision I came to as well...once I had gone through my first winter (2002/2003) with a set of snow tires (they were Michelin Arctic Alpins back then)...I committed myself to ALWAYS having a set of dedicated winter tires for at least my DD as long as I lived in snow country.

My decision to get snow tires was after I sold my 4x4 Ford F150...and the only vehicles I had left was a 91 753iL and my 97 740iL...one of them was going to have to be my snow sled...and the e32 was chosen. I thought for sure that it was going to be a hair-raising winter giving up the 4x4 because the 735iL only had BMW's initial ASC traction control system (no ABS braking {ASC+T} on the driving wheels) which only used engine throttle reduction to help regain traction)...but I was so shocked at the traction/turning/stopping ability of the snow tires in snow/freezing rain/ice/sleet/cold & wet days/etc (as long as I drove accordingly based on the weather conditions...I never got stuck or sideways. After that first winter...I made it my plan to have a set for each vehicle because you never know when an emergency may have you need the other vehicle with summer or all seasons mounted and the weather is not suited for those type of tires.

In the long run...you end up getting more life from your spring/summer/fall tires by giving them that winter "reprieve". It's actually a win/win. :D

I'll update my sig but it is a 2004 with the manual (3.0) We really don't get much snow and last year we got hardly any but I'd say on an average year we get 1-3 4-6" falls and 3-6 1-3" snow falls. I have no concern about getting stuck it's just braking and maneuvering. The roads are generally kept clean and most all of my driving is on roads that will be among the first cleared. It sounds like I can probably get by without them but I am sure it would be nice to run these. I have never had winter tires before and I would not consider buying them its more a situation of should I pay to have them mounted or sell them.

Well if you have the stick, then you already know that part of great driving in the snow is keeping in the correct gear, keeping the rpm's high enough, and using downshifting with minimal brakes for traction.

I avoid using overdrive (top gear) in the snow unless i'm on the highway and moving at a high rate of speed (and if its snowing heavily with accumulation I doubt the highway is going over 40-50 mph anyway!) and never lug the engine at low rpm's in the snow as you'll lose traction quick. Many of the problems of people driving automatics in the snow is that the tranny is always in the highest gear it can be and this translates to terrible traction/rpm load.

When my old man taught me to drive in the snow he told me 3 things:

1) Always keep the rpm's higher than you would if it wasn't snowing
2) Avoid your top gear at all costs if you can, overdrive will kill your traction
3) Downshift earlier and in accordance with light braking pressure, and use both brakes and engine to aid stopping, the downshifting will keep your rpm's higher which is in accordance with #1

I've never had a problem in 11 years of driving a stick in the snow, winter tires or all season tires equipped. Only problems I've ever had were with automatics.

MCurcio, the smart guys at eagbmw.com outside Cincy who sold me my X5 put Conti DWS all weathers on mine [sport package, 18" wheels] as part of the sale prep., and indicated they were more than enough for Ohio River Valley snowfall [maybe not for lake effect snow areas upon on Erie .....]. My very favorable impressions of the DWS in snow/slush on a much less snow-able vehicle [Mercedes SLK 350] in an Xmas drive last year to Northern Virginia suggests they will be all I need on my X5 for the rare snow/ice conditions I face driving south of the Mason-Dixon line ......

Great point on using downshifting when trying to stop on a slippery road... but i am not sure i agree with your point about automatics...I use downshifting a lot when i break during winter using my automatic transmission and it works as well as a manual (maybe not as well but very close). transmission in our cars, when in manual mode, allows to keep RPMs high enough for car to brake. If a transmission does not have a manual mode - than you are screwed, i agree :)

OP...
We probably get a lot more colder days up here but i think winter tires are a must if your weather drops below + 5C (sorry don't know what it is in F) for a long period of time as the all season tire compound gets really hard and reduces traction. It doesn't matter if you have a 4 wheel drive or 6 wheel drive but if there is no grip with the pavement you will have difficulties stopping at the intersection of making a manoeuvre in the emergency situation. When it comes to driving through snow, my wife's X3 had no problems with all seasons driving through piles of snow that we get up here... things got a lot more "interesting" when she had to stop or start though...

It's going to be a interesting experiment how well the Latitudes on 20"s staggard are in snow...I've never ran all season till this year.

I've always ran summers and snows but with the mindset of selling the X, I went with all-seasons setup for a easier sell...

Besides, aside from the brief stints when we get big snow, the roads I take are fairly clear, and I hated driving on gummy bears for the rest of the winter season when it was just cold with no snow..So if it's bad enough, I generally avoid being on the roads, as there are too many drivers who think they are invincible on a SUV.

It was more of a generic blanket statement about automatics, as besides the "enthusiasts" on the boards, I doubt very highly that many normal drivers do a single thing when driving in the snow, besides start the car and put it in "D", lol.

Using your X in manual mode in snow is very smart and although you may not be able to slip clutch, etc in order to modulate throttle, its better than being in full auto mode!

Winter tires aren't just for snow or ice. An "all season" tire will become less pliable as the ol'mercury drops off. Winter tire compounds are made up of materials that remain soft in colder temperatures to maintain maximum grip in cold weather.

Statements like that really stike a nerve as I was rear ended by someone who was on 'all-season' tires in -30....you might as well drive on hockey pucks, because they offer about the same amounts of grip.

Agreed :thumbup:

How do you go higher than redline without destructing the engine? :rofl:

Different Strokes - different folks. It never get's that cold out in my part of town...

The general consensus between tires manufacturers is that standard tires get too hard below 45degrees and don't offer the same level of traction that they do above that temperature. So, it doesn't have to be -30c to need winter tires. And if you happen to have extreme summers like Pilot Super Sports, they have big warnings on them to avoid driving in temperatures below 45degrees for that reason.

With a good set of snow tires...traction, stability, and stopping is much different on slick driven over snow like in this video. :) They must be on serious summer only tires to be sliding/slipping like this on just this little bit of slick snow:

BMW x5 summer tyres on snow - YouTube

Love it :)

Odd... a few years ago in the US, all-season really meant all-season. Back when I had a ford explorer, a set of goodyear tracker all-seasons let me do 50mph in a foot of snow during a blizzard in '06... now, all-seasons suck. :( Guess I better fork over the cash and get winters. :P

A lot of Continental DWSs owners say good things about their light snow abilities. If you live in a relatively temperate climate that gets an occasional light snow...and you rather deal with just one set of wheels/tires...you might want to consider these tires (or look into them to see if it something that fits your needs).

They rank at the top of the list on TireRacks Surveys of Ultra High All Season Tires: http://www.tirerack.com/tires/survey...jsp?type=UHPAS

Interesting discussion about using manual mode and keeping the revs up. While I grew up in the frozen north (Minneapolis area), I found just the opposite to be true. in fact, when racing in the rain, it's best to be in one gear higher, not lower, than you would in the dry (taught to me by Derek Bell, of all people). This reduces the chances of wheelspin, which is a negative traction situation (rain or snow). You can still go fast by carrying momentum, but no need to transfer weight with anything other than the brakes in slick conditions. Not to put to fine a point on it, but high revs and manual shifting an auto transmission in the snow is not ideal. Sorry.

I change to A/S tires for the winter here in Vegas in case I get caught in snow going over a mountain pass between here and LA or I decide to go north into Utah. We don't get the depths that the Ohioans get, but we can get cold and snowy from time to time. I don't put the summer tires (r-compounds…lol) on until it warms up in February.

:iagree:

There is a such thing as 'All-season', but you'll have to do some comparison shopping to find the ones that best meet your need.

And the type of snow will play a part. just a couple inches of snow and right around 32degrees will be more slick than 8 inches and 20 degrees. Colder and deeper snow its more important to have deep blocky tread. Icey and slushy conditions its better to have all the sipes and micropores of a studless tire.

We may be mixing up different scenarios here, but I would keep the revs lower, not higher, myself. Higher revs at the same vehicle speed means a lower gear, which means more torque at the wheel. It is the torque that breaks the tires loose. A higher gear, with the engine at lower revs, means less torque, and it is easier to keep the tires hooked up. Not applicable to things like ice racing when you want to drift it around, but on the street, I would use a higher gear over a lower one.

The time I would use higher revs is if I was using engine braking down a hill. Gearing down and taking advantage of the retarding force works better with higher revs and lower gears. But that is a result of the engine braking, more than a decision to drive at those revs. So I would say higher revs for braking down a hill, lower revs when trying to gain traction to accelerate.

I also think that with an automatic with a lock up torque converter, and dynamic stability control with independent wheel braking, some of the older theories are less applicable.

if you are considering just to stick with all seasons, one of the options would be Nokian tires... they perform a lot better than just plain all season tires in the winter...

Maybe the old theories are based on old American V8's with lots of power down low and no power up high? I think it would work with my turbodiesel VW also.

But opposite of a BMW (except the N54 or N63 which have power everywhere).

Winter Tires
 

racingbmwm3: I absolutely agree with you.....

I am firmly in the camp that believes that in order to get the best performance, enjoyment and safety from your vehicles, whether they are daily drivers or used on occasion, (i.e. long road trips, etc.), one should switch between summer performance tires and winter (snow) tires.

While it may seem easier and less expensive to go with All-Season Tires, if you do you are compromising your vehicle’s performance, something that most of us enthusiasts do not want to do.

I picked up my rear wheel drive 2014 BMW M6 coupe this past June in SC. Living in northern NJ and using this car for my daily commute into Manhattan I realized early on that I would need winter tires for use between Dec.- April.

I originally ordered the optional Summer Wheels: 20" M light alloy wheels – BMW Style 343M ($1,300 upgrade option), with Michelin Pilot Super Sport (non-run flats), as the summer performance wheels/tires, which have been great:
Front: 265/35 ZR 20 (99Y)
Rear: 295/30 ZR 20 (101Y)

This fall I ordered through my BMW Dealer from BMW, their Winter Wheel & Tire Package for the M6 which consists of the following:
Winter Wheels: BMW Style 408M - 19” Satin Silver. Rim Size 9 x 19
Winter Tires: Pirelli W240 Sottozero S2 Performance Winter/Snow Tires. All four tires are: - 255/40R19 100V XL. (Non-Run-Flat Tires)

Last week I had the wheels/tires swapped out at my Dealer. Apparently, starting this year, BMW USA is offering a program where they will take your summer wheels/tires and shrink-wrap them, put them on a pallet and store them in a central warehouse facility during the winter months, all for a flat fee of $200. For those of us who do not have extravagant garage storage space for these wheels/tires, this option makes quite a bit of sense and I was one of the first to take advantage of it.

Time will tell what this vehicle is like in winter conditions and packed snow with these wheels/tires. I think it should be ok, but if not or we get really nasty snow covered roads, I will keep the M6 at home and drive my all-wheel drive 2007 Mercedes-Benz ML63 AMG (79,000 miles), that have four (4) 295/40 R20 Pirelli Scorpion ICE & SNOW tires, (non-run flats), mounted during the first week of Dec. From April through Nov. I have been quite pleased with the (OEM) Continental Cross Contact high performance tires (UHP 295/40 ZR 20) for my summer performance tires on this SUV and have had an equally good experience with the Pirelli's for my winter tires, mounted on the same OEM AMG 20" wheels. Since the brake disks and calipers are so large there is no 19" wheel option for winter wheels for the ML63 AMG. Despite the tires large width, they have proven to be more than adequate on snow covered roads.

AVB-AMG
:driver:

I'm not impressed with the Pirelli Scorpions Ice/Snows on our X5. But, my comparison tires are Blizzaks on the E30. I think this set of tires is on its last season, so I'll try something different next year, either Bridgestone or Michelin...

Winter Tire Reviews
 

FYI - Here are several links to some reviews of winter performance tires, that you all may find interesting....

AVB-AMG
:driver:

Consumer Reports
Performance Tires | All Season Tires | Winter Tires - Consumer Reports

Tire Ratings | Best Performance Tires - Consumer Reports News

Road & Track
Winter Tire Test - Performance Test - Road & Track

About.com
The Top 10 Dedicated Snow Tires for 2013

Thanks for the links, AVB. Down here well below the Mason-Dixon, unless you drive like Burt Reynolds in Smokey & the Bandit, a good all weather [like the Conti DWS I had on our SLK 350 and now have on the X5] is a fine compromise. If I lived in New England, NY/NJ/PA, the upper midwest, the Rockies, or the lake effect snow belt, 'winter' tires and summer high performance, swapped on 1 Nov and 1 April, would make lots of sense; the heat sensitivity of the compounds described in the articles was very informative. So long as I'm in GA and the next ice age doesn't arrive, I'm good!

I don't agree with several of the posts.

If you are in an area where it snows significantly and often the safest practice is snow tires on all four wheels even if you have a two wheel drive vehicle.

If you are in an area where more often than not the roads are clear, most all season tires will be all around better performers and wear far less.

Higher rpms do not improve traction or vehicle control.

Downshifting either a stick or automatic compromises control. It is not as predictable and not something most of use are experienced or talented doing.

Holding your transmission in a mid range gear increases the potential to maximize control and traction due to less shifting and the greater ease to moderate throttle input efficiently.

The question of what is the best winter tire is far less important than how one drives. What is far more effective is---drive slower, reduce and modulate all driving inputs and extend your considerations for what you do a greater distance down the road. As an example--turn the wheel slower and as little as possible, drive like you have a raw egg under your foot, push on the brake slower and less. If you need to stop as fast as possible, stomp on the brake to get ABS going and then let up until the pulsing is quite slow. The majority of us are far less talented than the combination of our ABS and DCS systems. If at 40mph you look a block down the road consider everything that is going on a block and a half.

There's more but I expect I have ruffled enough feathers as it is.

I don't disagree with your list (no feathers ruffled here) but I would put a qualifier on your first two points. You define the deciding factor for needing winter tires as snowfall quantity, when in fact it is usually temperature. We use 7 C here as the breakpoint for winter tires (not snow tires); I think that is probably close to the 45 F noted above. Even without snow on the ground (like where I live, near the ocean so a temperate climate and limited snowfall) winter tires are a great advantage, and always on four wheels. I made sure both our daughters had them when they started driving, usually something like a Michelin X Ice or equivalent Bridgestone. Snow is actually easier to drive on than ice. Once it gets to -20 C or so the roads can be pretty good, snow or not. But not with tires that harden up below 7 C. There are few all season tires that remain sticky when cold.

I took my Z4 out once around Christmas, beautiful sunshine, top down. A relaxed drive. It was about -2 C or so. Roads were perfectly dry, no ice. The stock summer performance tires were incredibly slippery.

You're taking all the fun out of driving in the snow! It's the only time of year that it's possible to drive/experience drifting (not Tokyo style) at safer speeds. That is one thing is was disappointed in after getting my first set of Blizzaks, it was much harder to slide or spin the tires.

:iagree: In fact, everyone should practice looking as far ahead (and behind and all around) as possible at all times.
Just avoid the practice of staring off into the distance as that tends to increase your odds of a mishap. Avoid staring in general, keep your eyes moving, develop a routine. Look 2 blocks ahead, check interior mirror, look 1 block ahead, check left mirror and blind spot, look ahead 3 blocks, check right mirror and blind spot, look ahead 4 blocks, repeat every 10-15 seconds or more depending on your speed and traffic and weather.

Good point. While outside temperature would not be my first priority, I should have at least mentioned it is important to consider how much performance the tires may lose based on outside temperature. My usual consideration for temperature is more about whether I go out at all--yes or no leans to the no side at anything below freezing--has nothing to do with tire performance--it's too cold if you don't wear socks and, in Dallas, you don't have to make that decision more than around ten days a year.

Driving on ice is certainly more difficult than on snow. Some tires will help more than others but I think without good technique it is still a good bet it will be a ditch trip, fender bender, tree toppler, curb murder or OMG moment for that other thread.

Some clarification--my thoughts concerning tires are confined to X5s and even then very generalized. As an obvious example, a specific tire decision should be made with the model/year X, current tires in mind (plus a bunch of other stuff). I didn't consider vehicles like a Z4. If I had I would have suggested to never change the tires for winter, keep it in the garage and only take it out on days like you mention---for the thrill and enjoyment without going a 100mph to do so. I suspect we share that easily challenged not mentioned to the family viewpoint.

Off topic
 

This is driving a heated car, right? You are going soft down there.

The cycling forum I frequent uses the tagline HTFU in these cases. :rofl: I was out cycling last Sunday, at -4C, for about 3 hours. Roads were dry, sun was out. Good traction with 110 psi in the Continentals, but no extreme cornering.

Sounds like fun. ( Not really, I just don't want anyone to think I'm soft). I remember the days of souped up snowmobiles. Out all day and half the night, snowing and blowing, temp in the teens and thinking what can be better than this--as years have passed---- almost anything is better than getting cold.

Well it seems like we are going to have a really cold winter and we just got dumped on yesterday, with snow. So I decided to have these winter tires mounted. I have to say they are pretty freaking awesome. The car handles great with them on. Noticeable in every aspect. Only annoying thing is that I usually go to discount tire but they weren't open today so I went to a local shop. It seems like they did the worst balancing job ever. The more I think about it I think I'm best off just throwing these tires on my 3.0 sport wheels and then picking up a set of wheels I like more in the spring. I may go up a size and get new tires also. I can probably justify running winter tires for 5-6 months out of the year so I think it will work out good.

I was already pretty annoyed as I waited there for 2 hours just to have the tires mounted. I don't feel like going back there at all. I'm gonna call in Monday and tell them they suck and I want my money back for the balancing so I can go somewhere that actually knows how to balance a tire.

I hate that too. I've seen shops fail to remove the old tape weights and just add new ones. Or, not even add weights figuring nobody will notice with snow tires.
I prefer Discount Tire also, but I'm considering using Costco for my next set.

Turns out it was just snow lining the rims that I couldn't see in the dark that was throwing them off balance. These wheels really like to hold snow the set on my xi never did that. It's pretty freaking unbelievable the traction these things get tho. Between these tires and the traction control system this is by far the best handling car I have ever driven in snow. I would really encourage anyone in cold climates to consider winter tires it really improves the driving so much. It pretty freaking fun to be honest.

Sort of a a funny turn of events tho. I called in and explained the situation. The guy told me to bring the car in which I said no shot (I just don't have the time to wait there again). So he just says okay we'll refund you the money for balancing. I told the guy I'd prefer he hold off until I go to discount as I don't want to be given a refund if they did their job. He says its fine and just refunds me the money. So I got home and noticed the snow in the daylight, cleaned it all off and the balancing appears great. I called the guy back and old him to cancel the refund and he just says no its fine I'm sure you'll be in again. Well now I feel like I have to but I don't really want to. . .

I get the snow buildup on my cars' wheels also, but typically only when rallying around doing doughnuts.

I don't have any respect for a person who claims to be a car enthusiast, driving an all wheel drive vehicle, who isn't strongly compelled to find the nearest large open parking lot when a new snow fall comes and proceed to tear that snow up. So yes that was the case but I always did that in my xi and never had this issue. I'm pretty sure these wheels just like to hold it more.

Honestly even if you don't like rallying around in snow I think it is important to know how your car will handle when and if you loose traction and how you can regain control. I know it has helped me out a couple times.

There's an easy fix for that.

For the past 15yrs, I've put my vehicles on jackstands, removed the wheels, removed all weights and cleaned them spotless prior to delivering them to the shop for tire mounting. No chance of dents/dings in vehicle and any tire mounting damage to wheels is visible (I have the manager verify wheel condition at dropoff, this ensures his best tech does the work and not some floorsweeper. The manager knowing the wheels will be inspected at P/U ensures good work).

I disagree. I think EVERYONE driving a car in snow should be required to some sort of training like this. And truly, EVERYONE should be doing some type of skidpad training on dry and wet summer conditions as well.
Car enthusiasts will just have more fun doing it :)


@TiAgX5
I do the same thing with my wheels/tires, less the cleaning. Bring them in loose so that I'm the one installing them and I know they are torqued properly and not with an impact gun.
Thanks for the tip on the cleaning and removing the weights I didn't think of that!

Winter tires yes, winter driving practice, also yes!
 

We drive the best cars in the world, we should be the best drivers!
I live on the "wet coast" of BC, and swap out my tires for winters on halloween, and off again in march. I think that in some parts of the country we have to have the mountain snowflake symbol on the tire. failure to do that in the event of an accident usually results in a ticket for "over driving the conditions" or a tailgating citation.
that said, agree with above posters, an empty parking lot, or even a roundabout after a late night shift presents an invaluable opportunity to drive these cars like they do in the commercials, the ones where they drift around a corner, after all, isnt this what drew us to these vehicles!!!! a person should know what the limits of their vehicle is and also what the limit of their skill set is too. I learned how to drift in winter as a kid, mostly for fun! then when things get serious and scary on the roads, i could drift my way out of trouble, (although i would probably be better off just slowing down!) i was usually by myself, without input from my better half!
I think my daughter was about 4 or 5 before she learned that "going for donuts" actually involved going out and getting some donuts, rather than hopping in my jeep and ripping up a muddy field and coming home covered in mud and having to explain to my wife our current need of clean clothes!!
front wheel drive cars took alot of the fun out of snowy parking lots. You can still get an X5 to drift if you try hard enough and take off the traction control!! :)
Winter driving and summer driving are two completely different things, requiring two completely different mind sets, and driving styles.
I would also venture to say they require two different tire types as well!

@Rfaber, I can almost wave to you across the water here in Port Angeles.

I think its the same driving style, just slower in winter. Although when I'm on the track I try to avoid drifting because it hurts the lap times and destroys the tires faster. OK, I guess it is different, because drifting on snow is more fun and doesn't hurt the tires :)

If you live where you expect more than occasional snow, and it is your daily driver; definitely get snow tires - or at least good M&S.

@racing, hello! if youre ever in Vancouver, PM me for coffee!
drifting does eat tires, and makes for a crappy lap time, but.... its so cool!!!
Drifting lets you know where the traction limit of the tires / track is (for future reference of course!!)
ever come up here to Mission Speedway? 15 min from my place! :)
I do a fair bit of driving up the mountains, so i like my snowies! :)

Drive up to work this morning made me think of this thread and super happy I put those snow tires on. We have been getting loads of snow up here. Fortunately I was down south for new years. X5 tore it up on the way home from the airport last night.

I expected the highways would be cleared for work this morning but they had more snow on them. I was behind a camry on an open 3 lane highway with a couple inches of packed snow. I was really shocked that this guy was going 55. I was doing 50 or so but if I didn't have snow tires or was an a vehicle that didn't have awd, or if there were any other vehicles around or behind me, there is no way I would be going over 40. Sure enough this guy fish tales out in front of me and spins around then slides into the guard rail.

The more I think about this it is really reckless how people are just never trained to drive in snow. For those of us who enjoy driving and playing around with cars you train yourself but I know a lot of people that are clueless. They should not be allowed on snowy roads.

:iagree:
I feel the same way about the same people on dry or wet roads also! Can't wait for self-driving cars to get here.

:iagree: Yeah peope here can't even drive when it's raining, and when it's snowing, they feel compelled to try to turn left in front of you when you're already in the intersection.

Hankook Ventus A/S on the front, Bridgestone A/S on the back, and handling like a beast. I was going to get winters, but seeing how it was handling in the snow and slush, I decided to just be my cheap self and not bother. ;)

Can't wait for self-driving cars?--don't go outside, you will be hit by lightning.

There is a 5 minute section of my hour commute that is fun and I would choose to 'manually' drive. The other 55minutes I'd be fine with letting a computer take over.
Unless you've permanently disabled the DSC and ABS on your 4.6, you've already given in to allowing a computer to do the most entertaining part of driving, trying to control a vehicle at and just above the limit.
I'll continue to have my fun in cars on the weekend and at the racetrack :) Sans DSC...

Realistically, we're probably a good 20-30 years before self-driving cars would be trickling down to the general population, and maybe 40+ before the majority of cars on the road, if not all during specific times or specific roads, are self-driving. Maybe my electric drive winnebago tow vehicle will be self-driving then, so I can be rested up for wrestling my historic E92 M3 race car around tracks across the country on weekends?

If it ever happens, in the country of Texas. we would hot wire that sucker around it.. If we can't speed, tailgate,scream and flip the bird at least 2 times a week we would get a traffic ticket that sent us to driving in Texas rehab. The schools aren't that big so the President of Texas woiuld see that a law is passed that forces us to drive pre drive themselves vehicles, certainly pickup trucks.

Drive itself vehicles, what a terrible legacy for our children

ahh, you're thinking about it wrong. with the vehicles being driven by a device that isn't distracted by eating a McDonald's Big Mac, facebook/texting, changing radio stations, applying makeup, etc, speed limits can be increased, tailgating will become the norm, in fact, much closer than you would ever do, unless you drive NASCAR on the weekend, because optimal aero-efficiency will be with the vehicles almost bumper to bumper. And being most likely all electric vehicles (or very high performance gas) computers won't doddle along on the acceleration ramps (aka entrance ramps) like most people, they will use the full acceleration of the vehicle in order to merge onto the freeway of bumper to bumper vehicles travelling at 90+ MPH, without any drama.
So, less energy use, less collisions, and more free time for playing on their iPhone 35s or Playstation 12's. doesn't sound that bad. also, haven't you heard the number of kids of driving age actually driving is currently on the decline?
Just like the number of cars with manual transmissions. Getting a manual is now typically an 'optional' item and usually not even available on the upper end models...

I'm not really sure what any of this has to do with doing donuts in snow filled parking lots and what the best tires are for that purpose though...

It has nothing to do winter tires. It has everything to do with the joy, fun and excitement of driving the way it is now. I have no idea why someone that owns a 4.6 would have anything positive to say about vehicles that drive themselves. The way it is a big part of the reason that driving is so fun and exciting. You can have the last work if you want. I won't be around anyway.

I was pleased with how the all seasons did this morning through 8 inches of unplowed snow here in CT. I was going back and forth on grabbing a dedicated set of snows, but for my situation, I feel the rare instances where snows would out shine all seasons, I don't envision myself absolutely having to drive... might feel diff if I lived in Mass or Maine though...

I'm actually surprised at how well the X does with a/s tires here, especially on some of the really steep hills when it's slushy. I probably won't go with a set of dedicated snows unless/until I trade up for one of the 8 cyl Xs.

I could definitely get through anything I need to with all seasons but I have driven on all seasons in the xi for 3 years and then one snow with them in the x5. Now that I have the winter tires on the x5 I don't think I can ever go back. They hold the road so much better and make it so much more fun and safe to drive in the snow. When you lose traction or start to slide on a/s you don't get it back until you more or less stop. With the winter tires I can mash on the gas on snow packed roads around turns etc. it will slip if you push it but soon as I let off it grabs the road again almost defying physics (at least my perception of physics based on past experience). The traction control does a much better job controlling the vehicle with the snow tires. I presume because it responds more like a car on wet asphalt than a rock on ice.

also, it is probably to late but if you live anywhere where it gets below freezing, cover your locks (especially the front two) in wd40. Found out the hard way, that these front two like to freeze.

mcurcio, glad you bought them and realize how much nicer the X drives with winters on it.
its hard to explain to someone who is skeptical and really does not want to buy winter tires.
I deal with it all the time in Calgary and HATE seeing all seasons on any vehicle in Calgary. ESPECIALLY a 2wd vehicle.
To me, in a Calgary winter climate, seeing a vehicle without winter tires on says "sorry but I don't care as much about my family's safety OR yours, as much as I care about my bank account"
to me any vehicle in a canadian climate is an absolute must.
if you can afford an X5, you can afford winter tires.

its all about being a responsible driver!!!
NOT having winter tires on your vehicle doesnt mean you drive like its summer dry conditions, just means you're more prepared for nasty winter driving conditions.

The problem although it's really not a problem is that the value of the early X's has fallen to the point that even teenagers with jobs at Mickey D can buy a X but can't afford to maintain them or buy extras like a second set of wheels for the winter.

then thats poor/irresponsible planning on the drivers behalf. The driver should just buy a beater civic till they CAN afford to own a vehicle and maintain it better.
they have to expect to put money into a vehicle before they buy it and they are missing that point.
its like putting the right fuel/oil/fluids in a car. you shouldn't cheap out just cause you could afford to buy the vehicle but can't afford to maintain it properly. Do that and it WILL break down.
would you buy a Ferrari and put regular fuel in there? No there are things you expect to do to a vehicle when you own one... buying winter tires (where winter conditions exist) should NOT be one you over look as it could save you/my life.

UpAllNight, please do not take this as comments towards you, I'm just stating to all.

No offense taken.

I have brought my share of Exotic and High end automobiles and have seen first hand how some people either had no knowledge as to what it cost to keep these cars running or think that they can MacGuyver a fix for the car rather then buy original parts. Best MacGuyver fix was using Corvair axles on a Lotus.

If you seen some of my replies to posters on this forum, I told them point blank that a BMW was not the right car for them

OT...
:iagree: ...it's been creeping into becoming commonplace for the past several years, esp on E53s.

There are probably scores/hundreds of well kept E53s/early E70s held by owners that frequent this site; most of us still have those 'well kept' cars, or lucky owner #2 has it.

The rest , (and there are hundreds of thousands), are off to some knucklehead off brand dlr who copped one at auction or the corner used car lot, et al, and on their 3rd to 4th owner. And, this species of car is not your Dad's beater Chevy that just ran and ran, and ran.
GL, mD

Definitely get a winter tire if you have sport tires on your X5. Just relaying my experience.

I have Bridgestone Dueler H/P Sport tires 255/50/19 front, 285/45/19 rear. Last winter, after going sideways on a downhill icy mountain road I started checking into all season tires. The Bridgestone sport tires are recommended by the Bridgestone for 40 degrees F and higher temps. Good to know after taking a winter drive sideways.

I found only Pirelli made a winter tire, the Scorpion Ice & Snow in the OEM tires sizes. Not wanting to undersize and go with a narrow tire, I took the chance and put the Pirelli's on the car in the same size, understanding they are pretty wide tires. Happy to say, a great tire in ice and snow, dramatic difference over the summer sport tires. Quiet on the highway at 75mph, smooth and great on snowy Colorado roads. I can get up and down a snow filled sloped driveway in the mountains. This is my second season with the Pirelli's. Now about 10,000 miles and wearing well. Should last a few seasons as I swap sport and winter tires pretty easily with two sets of rims for the X5.

I would not drive a sport tire in the winter. A second set is cheap compared to hitting something or someone.

When I bought my 850, I noticed more "MacGuyver" parts than I can tell you about..
Needless to say its taken about $30K to get it back to factory spec with some tastful mods (wheels, exhaust, stereo...) so I know how these vehicles can be extremely expensive.
I just wish everyone respected cars enough (look at the big picture of the car's life and quality you get from it) to maintain them properly and equip them with the proper parts for the driving experience that these vehicles CAN provide.

The thing about beater cars, is they are built with very wide tolerances and not a lot of frills/options. The car drives just about the same as it did when new because it sucked to start with. It just burns/leaks a little (lot) more oil than it used to, along with all the other fluids leaking. Tires always wear the same since there aren't any adjustments that can be made to the alignment (body on frame design and live axles) and handling/steering are floaty the way they should be.
The upper end beaters are the ones that you can't lock the doors anymore because the power locks don't work, the power windows don't work, the trunk is bungied shut because the remote trunk release is broken...
In the long run, its cheaper to have a cheap car with no options because there is less stuff to break. Thus, the American and Asian cars that never die.

Less Luxuries = Less Problems.

I'm with you UAN, really getting sick and tired of the complaining threads about "wahhh I just bought my X5 and now I cant afford these repairs", or the intro thread with pics, and then 2 months later the OP comes back in and says its for sale. 10 years ago I could have afforded a used Toyota Supra, or 300ZX, RX-7, cars I dreamed about driving at the time, I just loved those classic 90's Japanese sports cars. I never bought one though, because I wouldn't have been able to afford the upkeep.

Kids today though, a lot of them just want to own a BMW i'm afraid. And the sad part is a lot of them take out loans to buy these 7-10 year old bimmers!

That's why I like my X. No automatic climate controls, no rain sensor to turn the wipers on, no headlight washers, no parking assist, no nav and the passenger seat is manual not electric. Sort of like a RS America PORSCHE, strip down with no frills.

And if the wife had told me that she doesn't like driving the X because it is too big for her, I would have looked for a 6 speed manual.

OT...
was being facetious, slightly...'beater' is hard to define and everyone will have a different mental picture or anecdote. My point is an old(er), multi-owner, not maintained example of an X is often not going to be fun to own, and its reliability may be suspect.

I have 3 old motorcycles, a '94, an '87 and a '75: they all start, run, work well within their limits. They are all 'beaters' to some degree, esp my old '75 Shovelhead HD. My '02 VetteVert, never babied, runs like a fookin 360 HP Vette. My '01 3.0 X runs like a top...all anecdotal.

The board is becoming consumed with 3rd, 4th, 5th gen of owners, in cars that were only slightly maintained over the lifespan, and are in their 9th inning, or their death throes.

Yet, we all offer up 'do this, do that, replace these parts', etc., trying to help the usually neophyte poster. All good stuff, but one doesn't have to be clairvoyant to discern that some of the cars and some of these new owners will have no chance.

But, interesting to read, and no knock on the good intentioned DIY'er, etc.
BR, mD

Its amazing what we will all tolerate to support a "brand" and the "marketing" of the superiority of german engineering. The germans never went to the moon, so complicated doesn't mean well engineered.

As an engineer myself, and low mile X5 owner for the past two years (2003 4.4 sport that I bought with 44k miles, now has 73k miles) I have seen more stuff fail than I can shake a stick at. Is it only the X5 and this year that has problems? I have rebuilt engines and raced, so I do all the work myself, but the list is pretty long for such a nice low mileage vehicle.

The list as follows for my Bimmer:

- Front left CV boot (easy $20 fix at 44k mile purchase). Rubber not holding up well on all boots.
- Rubber hoses under engine acoustic cowl disintergrated, designed to direct oil vapors to condensor system, evidenced by engine oil leak off rear bank (easy $100 fix at 44k mile purchase with BMW parts. Seemed to be a design or material problem for this oil vapor recovery system)
-Electrical short in oxygen sensor harness, rubbed against driveshaft, not properly retained away from driveshaft OEM...(just my time diagnosing and learning about multiple fuse boxes, engine ECU compartment, glove compartment and rear compartment...why so many?)
- Radiator ($150 fix) at 60k mile. Pretty early to spring a leak on tank. Core was good.
- Top/bottom Radiator hoses ($100 fix) at 65k mile. surprise.
- Water pump ($150 fix) at 65k having taken this all apart multiple times to fix radiator leak and later have hoses burst. Rubber didnt hold up well on this 10 year old car.
-Driver seat memory switch failure ($200 fix)
-Alternator failure at about 70k miles ($200 fix, found a supplier to NAPA on ebay) Who makes a water cooled alternator..only those germans :)
-Rain sensor failure (still researching and need to fix)
-Rear Air Springs now start to settle overnight but pump right up (now researching where the leak might be)

But for all the above, it is a fun vehicle to drive, handles great, looks great. I just wish it was less complicated, more reliable. There is no good reason for a 11 year old car to have this string of problems. I think poor quality rubber parts and switches are at the heart of the problem.

Sorry for the rant, but I had expected more after owning Corvettes, Mercedes, Jeeps, Mitsubishi turbo, VW and now experiencing BMW. I will say the factory tour and museum in Munich had sold me, but not sure I would venture again into BMW land once this car has expired.

Better get replacement Arnott air springs installed now, before your compressor burns out from being overworked. Other than that, all your problems seem fairly normal.

I will take that as word to the wise. BTW, also replacing the transmission neutral/position sensor switch to try to eliminate the occassional trans program fault that comes and goes. Apparently, that switch is also a common problem.

My hope it that after the "weakest links" are eliminated, and all parts are now burned in pretty well, I will just focus on normal maintenance and enjoying the ride.. rather then spend more time under it.

Thanks.

Please list the number of items on your car that haven't failed and compare the two lists.

On your race car, did you leave parts on and only replace after they failed?

Waterpumps, alternators (brushes/regulators), hoses, shocks are all maintenance items, and getting more than 50k out of those parts is good. Not excellent, but good. The CV boots should definitely last longer though. All cars are only designed to last 10 years without any major problems (major engine failures like headgaskets or broken valves, transmission failure, etc). After that its a crap shoot.

All the electronic areas are to locate fuses and wiring terminal blocks as close to the components/modules as possible. Plus weight distribution and space allocation of the large amount of wiring and said electronics/modules was put into consideration. Be glad you don't have an E65 or any newer BMW/Merc/Lexus/etc, as they have even more now. I don't plan on owning any used vehicles of the newer vintages as I foresee lots of fun problems to deal with. Either stick with the older 2006- and continue to repair as necessary, or bite the bullet and only buy new/CPO cars with warranty and sell when the warranty is up.

??? WHAT?

What nationality do you think all the SR NASA engineers were that made space flight/moon landing possible? Can you say GERMAN? Google Wernher von Braun.

The US got into space by naturalizing/buying German engineers that developed the V2 rockets! (post WWII)

We had a genius in Robert Goddard but the US was too stupid to fund him. W von Braun looked over Goddards papers and was AMAZED the US government was not supporting his work.

Don't kid yourself, if Germany didn't get all their ball bearing factories bombed, we would ALL be speaking German!

Saying German engineering had nothing to do with the US getting to the moon is like saying Penski, Follmer and Donohue won the '72 Can Am series without mentioning that the German designed Porsche 917 could lap the field in almost EVERY race of the season.

Good point on von Braun, he and his team of German scientists were all relocated to Huntsville AL to work on the space program after WWI, so that was the beginning of the US Space program. Plus the jet planes found developed by the Germans and were discovered near the end of WWII by the Allies. All significant technological leaps by a brilliant group of German engineers ( I am also part German, so I a safe in my comments).

But the US was first on the moon (now the Russians and Chinese have also landed craft), we had Edison and Ford and may other brilliant engineers and technical wizards, so I do think the marketing of this German engineering is overblown a bit and we all buy into it. There is a bent towards complexity that can be the undoing, and the more complex, the more likely to fail. That was my point :)

More complex sometimes equals more failure.

I have an '03 4.4 that has been trouble free (sans common wear items) for over 175k miles. When I DIY, I appriciate the complex designs, having seen numerous half-assed designs on American and Asian vehicles.

Not a fan of Edison, he was the Bill Gates of invention. Hired HUNDREDS of inventors to come work for him, catch was you signed a contract that he OWNS/PATENTS everything you develop/invent at his sprawling compound in Menlo Park, NJ.

I think it is unreasonable to expect a ten year old vehicle, regardless of the mileage and brand, will not be wearing out some of the more expensive parts.

More often than not the vehicles compared here to an X5 as being more reliable are not in any way similar. As an example, it makes no sense for me to say my X5 is not as reliable as my lawnmower even though it is a Honda, it dents much easier than my military tank that I take on the freeway as an equalizer for Texas trucks. It doesn't get as good mileage as my bicycle even though it is only a ten speed, or it costs more to fix than my wheelbarrow even though it's a high end beauty from Home Depot. I have never read a Motor Trend or Automobile magazine comparison of two vehicles that were not similar in size, weight, performance, price etc. Which means, I don't even think it reasonable to compare a 3.0 to a 4.4. Nor do I think comparing the reliability of 2002 4.4 to a 2005 4.4. is a good idea unless it is an advantage in a d%$k dance.

I can't remember how many times I have read something like I replaced a bad belt tensioner and while I was in there I replaced all the pulleys, the belts, the water pump the alternator, the hood and both of my pine air fresheners. I could be wrong about the fresheners. I have read so many posts where someone started replacing parts that were fine on the way to the real cause. I think that must feel similar to my premature ej#%$^lations when that is over. When we do that we are inflating the actual maintenance cost. Another thing we don't usually know about someone complaining is if they are a DIY or have to pay someone. What if they go to a dealer-- I would complain to customer service that they don't like me if my advisor didn't come out and tell me at least a grand of other stuff was in need of repair.

Based on my BMW experience they have all been very reliable and have not been costly to maintain. If that means anything to anyone I will tell you my secret. I drive them very hard all the time. Always exceed the speed limit. Take lots of curves fast enough to made the tires sing. On the X5, modify the engine and transmission until they scream in agony. Along with that do all normal maintenance at half or less of the recommended intervals. Keep it clean top to bottom at a great carwash on Preston, park inside and you won't have any reason to be negative about your BMW. Then again--perhaps it only happens in Texas.

Oh, and as far as winter or snow tires--I lived in Michigan many years, right on Lake Michigan, lots of lake effect snow. I never bought snow tires and I was certainly not unsafe at any speed-- I say thats' hogwash. My parents always went the snow tire route. They could go in deeper snow than I could but on ice or packed snow that is most often the case. I did not experience any benefit. I don't think it is appropriate to shame someone because they don't buy or can't afford snow tires unless they are also drunk and forgot their bifocals. If you're wondering I don't have a fire extinguisher in my X either, or safety flares, or blankets or a light you can crank to get it going or even a handy dandy first aid kit. I do have duct tape and paper towels and some mints.. I did stop driving my Corvair.

[QUOTE=bcredliner;973733].......I can't remember how many times I have read something like I replaced a bad belt tensioner and while I was in there I replaced all the pulleys, the belts, the water pump the alternator, the hood and both of my pine air fresheners. I could be wrong about the fresheners. I have read so many posts where someone started replacing parts that were fine on the way to the real cause. I think that must feel similar to my premature ej#%$^lations when that is over. When we do that we are inflating the actual maintenance cost. Another thing we don't usually know about someone complaining is if they are a DIY or have to pay someone. What if they go to a dealer-- I would complain to customer service that they don't like me if my advisor didn't come out and tell me at least a grand of other stuff was in need of repair.....[QUOTE]

So true!

The MOST important step of vehicle repair is the first step, proper root cause identification. I've read hundreds of posts stating "these are my general issues.......what did you replace to fix that?". Numerous issues can cause the same symtoms, therefore, what one person replaced may well not fix another X with IDENTICAL issues.

A good example is fuel delivery issues. The fuel rail pressure test takes 10 mins and requires a $20 tool, yet many here continue threads wanting to know "what part needs changing", even after a post explaining the test will verify pumps, filter, regulator and related electricals. This will make for a "parts changer", NOT a DIYer. Repair costs and frustration skyrocket!

Even the indys and dealers have "part changer" techs.

[QUOTE=TiAgX5;973842][QUOTE=bcredliner;973733].......I can't remember how many times I have read something like I replaced a bad belt tensioner and while I was in there I replaced all the pulleys, the belts, the water pump the alternator, the hood and both of my pine air fresheners. I could be wrong about the fresheners. I have read so many posts where someone started replacing parts that were fine on the way to the real cause. I think that must feel similar to my premature ej#%$^lations when that is over. When we do that we are inflating the actual maintenance cost. Another thing we don't usually know about someone complaining is if they are a DIY or have to pay someone. What if they go to a dealer-- I would complain to customer service that they don't like me if my advisor didn't come out and tell me at least a grand of other stuff was in need of repair.....Yes, and even here, using your example, there are those that tell OP when several others are still asking about symptoms, or have suggested a pressure test that post---you have a bad fuel pump--replace it. To an OP that sounds like that person certainly knows what there are talking about or they wouldn't be so sure. Sometimes they are reciting what was wrong when they had those symptoms not knowing it could be something else. Or worse yet, their goal seems to be to take a shot in the dark to try to be the first one to get it right.

I recall losing a new forum member because of how much he spent on a wild goose chase prematurely replacing parts that were not the problem. Some of the posts became very rude when he started challenging when someone was still telling him to replace more parts. Paraphrasing the posts----you asked what is wrong because you are a dumb s$%t, I told you, you haven't done what I told you to do so f$#k off.

[QUOTE=bcredliner]
I do have duct tape and paper towels and some mints..
[QUOTE]

Sounds like a first aid/Macgyver tool kit to me.

Now, probably never needing snow tires in Texas so it doesn't matter, there is a big difference in the snow tires your parents used and the modern studless tires available now. If you ever have a chance to drive the same vehicle back to back on ice/packed snow with snow tires and with all seasons or summer tires. Then get back to us. I definitely agree that old school snow tires aren't any better than all seasons except for more aggressive/deep blocky tread.

I've been to Port Townsend. It's beautiful. We did the rainforest hike just South of you. Awesome.

This thread seems to have gotten off-track about winter tires though...

And +1 for despising Edison. Ever hear of Tesla? He was responsible for sooo many tech inventions back in the day.

Bell, too. Thieves. All of them.

So true.

My Great Grandfather (moms side) worked for Edison in Menlo Park. Mom has a copy of the employment contract, his workers were not allowed to EVER mention what they worked on, even post employment. He collected ALL the glory!

I did a history paper on Americans who changed the way we live while in high school. Picked Edison, and came away thinking far less of him after finding out how he operated!

I feel the same way about Columbus and many of the other early explorers/conquistadors.

Hard to imagine how a thread about winter tires is now talking about the discovery of north america and explorations to the moon in relation to German vs. American engineering might. . .but i like it.

Personally I think the whole german vs American thing is pretty clear. Being an American mechanical engineer, I have noticed that there are different kinds of engineers. You got the business minded, practical hands on guys, and the book smart ones. Germans are incredibly book smart (and perfectionists) almost to a fault and they seem to lack a lot of the practical and business sense. Americans are decent inventors but we are great at producing and marketing. Someone mentioned Henry Ford. Henry ford was an incredibly smart guy but he didn't do anything ground breaking in terms of engineering he just took the automobile (which was totally a german invention) and found ways to build them for the masses. Germans have invented a ridiculous amount of things but generally there not good at making these things well rounded or marketable. Their just great at making / innovating precise perfectly functioning things. Random example - every major advancement in boat drive design in the past 100 years has come from volvo (German) yet mercury is still quite dominant and just uses volvo's designs.

Personally I think it is to bad that Americans do not know more about Germany. We learn a decent bit about Roman and english history but nothing about Germanic. Our language was derived from Germanic and anglo saxons were Germanic and it was Germans that brought down the Roman Empire (albeit slowly). Hitler was off his rocker but it is pretty hard to argue that as a whole there is a pretty solid gene pool sloshing around over there.

[QUOTE=racingbmwm3;973911][QUOTE=bcredliner]
I do have duct tape and paper towels and some mints..
Oh yes, duct tape is the cornerstone of my first aid and emergency repair kit, not for you? : 34 Different Ways to Use Duct Tape for Survival & Emergencies | Wake Up World

I am getting back to you. Who's us? I mentioned my parents, I didn't say it was years ago.

I don't think it matters much what tires you have on for snow and ice if you don't know how to drive in those conditions and if you know how to drive in those conditions it doesn't matter matter what tires you have on.

It's all about "merican marketing!

Everyone knows the Wright bros where first in flight. Right?.......Wrong!

It was a German born Bavarian, he beat the "bros" by over 2 yrs.

Wright Brothers Not First to Fly | Flying Magazine

The Wright bros got recognized by signing a contract with the 'merican gubment giving them the Wright Flyer, ONLY as long as they NEVER mention Whitehead.

Good discussion, but it belongs in the lounge not in the E53 forum.

From the perspective of a Canadian mechanical engineer who has worked with automakers on product development (as a Tier 1 supplier) I disagree re Henry Ford. He did do ground breaking work, but it was as much on cost engineering and manufacturing engineering as it was on vehicle design engineering. I wouldn't underestimate the impact, however.

I think that generally the Germans have been very strong on marketing their engineered products. Think of the global brand awareness, that is a specific measure of their marketing success. In a list of 2012 global brand rankings, Mercedes was #12, BMW was #13, and VW was #39. Only Toyota had a stronger global automotive brand (#11). Top America automaker was Ford, at #45. The rest of the top 100 included Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Kia, Hyundai, Audi, and Ferrari. No other US automakers other than Ford.

I've never been to Volvo in Germany. I have been to their global head office in Sweden several times though. Germany contributed quite a bit of technology with the ZF azimuth thrusters, and that brings us back to vehicle transmissions at least, with a BMW parallel.

I think driver skill and experience is important. But as to your second point, if one knows how to drive in those conditions one is very likely to have the appropriate tires on their vehicle. It is directly related to that oft-repeated phrase about their being old pilots, and bold pilots, but no old bold pilots.

I don't disagree with the old bold pilot thing though I don't think it is necessarily an applicable analogy.

If we are discussing those living in an area that snowing in April is a ho-hum, snowmobiles are using drifts for jumps, the coffee thermos is empty before they get to work, a trunk full of sandbags only makes their vehicle look funny, there is no traction control, no ABS, and no DSC, one headlight and red tape over the broken taillight, I would modify my opinion. Better yet, they should sell what they have and buy something that makes sense, at least fix the headlight so they don't blind me with their brights.

If we are discussing E53 X5s or many vehicles made in the last 10 years, I stick by my opinion for other than extreme conditions--the bold pilots are out there in extreme conditions with the afterburner blazing. I am not saying winter or snow tires won't help. I am saying that all those driving inappropriately, in winter conditions that have an OH S$%Ts moment, would very likely be screamers driving a snow plow with chains.

ok, 1-2" in Portland. Dozens of cars video, crash in Portland ice storm - Car Crash - YouTube
All the vehicles in this video with all season tires and AWD, in particular the 4Runner and Outback. Excluding the idiot in the Volvo XC (also AWD and all seasons), nobody here was driving with their afterburners on. The one car that apparently didn't have any problems was the E90 with snow tires. This was a couple of blocks from the dealership I worked at. I drove my E30 to work and couldn't make it up this hill with my all season tires, which was a big letdown since I drove the other 20 miles in snow without any problems. Ended up parking away from this mess. The next day I drove my wife's 325iX with snow tires and was able to drive up/down all these hills without issue. Which led me to start doing late night snow rally drives around the city when there aren't any pedestrians or vehicles on the road ;)
Here's an example of those with the afterburners causing problems for everyone else.
Massive Pileup On Wisconsin Highway 41/45 During Snow Storm - YouTube
If everyone had modern snow tires, wouldn't have been as big a deal and the number of spins/crashes would have been limited to just a few cars. (really guessing here)

BUT, this is northwest snow which is different than the snow everyone else gets. Ours is always a mix of slush and ice and snow and is ridiculously slippery. Going east where the temperature is below 28 when it snows and stays cold, ice never really forms on the pavement and the roads offer about the same amount of traction as clear roads up until there gets to be a few inches and it starts packing on the road.

Well when you stomp on the gas like that one guy was doing what do you expect? He's one guy that DON'T know how to drive. He did the most damage to his car as well as other people car.

Often said about inventions-- ones invention will be a repeat or if you don't hurry someone you are completely unaware of is working to prove the same idea.

My perspective of German engineering is somewhat similar to Apple. Apple engineering uses the concept of legos. Until they run out of legos they continue to build on what they have successfully done. Apple engineering is more intuitive and generally less complex than perceived. When complex it is best that it is.

When the bulk of the advertising budget is dedicated to brand awareness it is the early stages of a new product introduction, the company, or when entering a new market.

As quickly as reasonable the budget will shift to brand image priorities, a business plan market share goal will most often trigger that shift. While market share is the key measure meant of success, brand image is the critical issue to staying power, profit and the overall value of the brand. Coca-Cola is the most valuable worldwide brand. Continuing on the Business week list Toyoto is 7, Mercedes is 10 and BMW is 15th.

While brand positioning advertising contributes to brand awareness, product consistent with the brand positioning is the key component of ongoing expansion of brand awareness. We can all think of a reason why Cola-Cola, Microsoft, IBM and GE fall before any automaker.

While BMW is 15th, the key performance measurement is how the brand is trending. As for BMW the brand awareness has improved 15% since 2005. Doesn't sound like much but every point is priceless. During the same period Coca-Cola was down 1, Microsoft -5, IBM +5, GE +4. As far as automakers, Toyoto was +5, Mercedes +9.

For ongoing success the product must contribute to the brand image, the key to BMW is contribution to the driving machine positioning. Certainly durability and reliability are a key element to that mission. Whatever negatives we have about the BMW brand, the rest of the world believes BMW brand is more valuable than it was in 2005.

As soon as the fire truck arrived on site and moron driver blocked the iced intersection I KNEW the video would show multiple cars plow into it. What was that driver thinking?

With the light rain here in TX (50/60 deg temps), we have had 3 hwys closed in the past 24hrs (ALL multi-vehicle wrecks, at least 2 18 wheelers involved in each pile-up!). Hwy 30 at Bass Pro is currently TOTALLY closed (BOTH DIRECTIONS), 16 vehicles involved!

Would rather deal with iced roads (leave the X garaged and drive a beater/battlewagon with crash bar bumpers) then the jackass pickup/18 wheeler drivers doing 90 mph on wet TX roads.

Just checking, I can be easily fooled. The wink means all of this is just funny? The youtube examples and your narrative are just a put on?

So true. This is one thing I don't understand. This is not the first time I've seen someone loose control on the snow, start spinning out, and then decide to punch it. Is there a thought process to this or do people just freak and start stomping on pedals?

Some likely think it will help, others have pedal confusion. When the brake didn't work, they figure they will try the other pedals.

There is a related concept where it does help. With a front wheel drive vehicle, when it breaks loose and you start under steering (usually because of lifting the throttle at the wrong time in the corner) reapplying throttle can in a sense help the car pull you through it. Common on SAABs, Minis, and other rally cars on snow covered roads. This isn't a solution once you are rotating, just once you are plowing ahead. Sliding wheels don't help you turn, but if you get the wheels turning again you can steer, within limits.

:iagree: Drifting is an example of controlling a skid using the go pedal with rear wheel drive.

But with a rear wheel drive vehicle, applying throttle will increase oversteer. Drifters do it for show, but if you are sliding, there are few times you want to apply throttle to regain control. With a front wheel drive vehicle, applying throttle can help regain control and steering, since steering and drive are on the same axle.

You turn the front wheels in the direction of the skid to control a skid on a rear wheel drive car. The go-pedal only increase the drift if that is what you intent on doing.

Most drivers in the vid were sliding hown the hill brakes LOCKED. ABS was fooled into thinking the vehicles were stationary yet all 4 wheels were sliding.

Drivers need to learn that in order to re-activate ABS function, the brakes MUST be released for an instant so the ABS system gets a signal from pulse sensor/starwheel and "sees" wheel rotation.

I suspect we are on the same page. I am left handed so I am not in my right mind which makes it harder to be clear.

Yes, turning in the direction of the skid to both front and rear wheel drive.

I agree that front wheel drive can help pull a vehicle out of a skid. What that means is the steering wheel can be turned toward the direction you want to end up going sooner than rear wheel drive.

The precision in a drift is controlling the drift with varying amounts of primarily turning in the direction of the skid and using the go pedal to keep the rear wheels spinning and the rear end of the vehicle hanging out enough to maintain the drift.

As far as I can see I can get more out of analyzing dog crap that has been there so long it is white than I can either of the videos.

Obviously, the Portland video has 16,000 views and has been out there 7 years because it is is one of those---come here you have to see this, it unbelievable. It's Portland, the average snow fall is about 6 inches. No one has enough winter drive time to be good at it. It was a steep hill that even people could not stand up on. It was so slick and so long there were no curling brooms needed ahead to assure a landslide of even cars going slowly. A clear indication they had no idea what they were doing is that they started down the hill in the first place, not noticing cars everywhere, people in the street and 4 way flashers going. It's a small street lined with houses, most of them had to know the hill was there and if they had any sense they would have gone another route, or pray tell, stopped before the hill. There had to be someone they drove around to get on the giant slalom mountain, I can hear them-s$$t, get outa my way you pus#$ies, learn to drive or get the hell off the road.

Any driver that got through the Wisconsin pileup without a scratch has won the office pool so many times they're not invited to participate anymore. The key to getting through the obstacle course was being at the appropriate speed though in this case you became another target. Obviously, from the number of vehicles that seemed to be going so fast, the pace of the majority of the traffic had been much fasteer for some time. The visibility must have been restricted by blowing snow or by a hill. Somebody on the afterburner could have started the junkyard but my money is on somebody that is hunched over the wheel, their head can't be seen over the headrest, their knuckles are white, they are frozen in place, they don't appear to be conscious, they are wearing those wrap around dark plastic sunglasses, they are going 30 in the left lane with their right blinker on and they don't seem to hear you honking or flashing your lights or yelling, get the f%$k out of the way before you cause an accident.

In either case, if anyone can tell what tires are on any vehicle you can see an Eagle before it sees you.

Here's a vid showing the jackasses we get to deal with in TX, go to 5:55, shows ONE intersection with light traffic and traffic control light in Plano, TX (right near bcredliner). Clear weather, dry road, yet DOZENS of wrecks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7OhIZnjAVo

If you drive a nice vehicle in TX you have operate it like every other driver thinks it's the end of days!