Lithium-Ion battery?
 

Has anyone swapped their lead acid out for lithium-ion?

LIGHTWEIGHT Because of 3x higher specific energy and energy density numbers, Lithium batteries are small & light.
SUPER DEEP CYCLING Depending on discharge depth, a Lithium battery can do 5x as many cycles as lead acid. It can handle 80% depth of discharge (DOD) while lead acid handles 50%. If replacing a lead acid battery under two years old due to deep-cycling damage, you'll save in the long run switching to Lithium-ion.
FAST RECHARGE Lithium batteries can accept charge current up to 5x faster than lead acid batteries. Charge efficiency is about 75% for lead acid compared to 97% for Lithium, which means less recharge time and alternator strain.

No need for venting, fully sealed!

Even at double the cost I'm considering it.

Interesting, :popcorn:

LION - as least in cordless tools....don't work for sh1t in the cold though.

I have been running AGM and went up a larger size

I agree on the cold weather factor. Try using a cordless drill when it's been sitting in a garage overnight in the freezing cold.

I have drills with the lithium batteries and if I leave them in the work van over night in -20c weather they will be totally dead untill they warm up , also with the lithium battery they keep full charge all the time and then they completely dye with no sign of getting week. In my opinion I would stay away from lithium in a vehicle ,thats my 2 cents.

Doesn't Tesla Motors uses lithium-ion battery packs for their cars?

Yes

My X spends almost all its time in TX and FL so there's not much cold weather operation. Over 175k miles and has NEVER turned a wheel on snow/slush/ice. The X is in a warm garage and the Accord slogs thru the crappy roads.

Hmmmm. If it's not a better alternative right now, give it a year and there will be this type of OEM and after market battery available everywhere. Only a matter of time. This is simply better technology.

Now how many people drive Teslas in freezing temps and snow?

B, probably quite a few. A $100,000 car is quite common nowadays.

I highly doubt many people are driving Teslas in the winter. I actually have a buddy that works for Tesla, Tesla won't even let him drive his demo car in the winter. He has a jeep for that.

I've seen several Teslas (Tesli?) running around here in Coppell, TX during single digit temps.

FWIW, the new MB AMGs are running lithium-ion batteries.

Yep... You guys in Texas have it ROUGH in the winter.


Also, how many batteries are in a Tesla?

, even if it is a 100000 vehicle I wouldn`t want that battery, lithium sucks in the winter . the battery would have to have a built in heater to keep it warm up in the north here . I guess it would be alright if you just drive the vehicle in warm climates.
this from GM- Lithium-ion batteries have some drawbacks. They don't work well in very cold weather; they generate heat and need a way to be cooled; and they cost more than other batteries. But they are lighter and smaller for their power, so carmakers like them because they don't have to waste a lot of space on a huge battery.

Here's a link on lithium-ion and cold. FWIW, I will not run the smallest/lightest battery, this can cause issues.

Lithium Pros » How does cold weather affect lithium batteries?

Quote....."ALL batteries will perform poorly in cold weather, regardless of whether they are lithium or lead-acid. In fact, a lithium battery will still outperform a comparably-sized lead-acid when the temperature drops."....... According to this you MUST use a comparably-sized lithium ion battery and NOT a small/light one in cold climates.

My Cousin drives a Tesla S or his PORSCHE 996.

There is a Tesla "something" right next to my work. They receive several cars at a time. I can see them washing them, and ?..... They also drive them around all the time and it's winter here. In fact I passed one the other day on the freeway while it was pouring rain. I heard Tesla is opening up something big up here in portland?

Lithium batteries, lipos as there called in the RC world, have been mainstream for about 5 years now. Yes it's a different type of lithium, but shares the same qualities. Lipos totally changed the whole seen. I predicted several years back that we would see this technology in automobiles. We will also see lithium powered electric cars soon. 40% of the weight with the same output and capacity = a serious advancement.

and if you read up on these lithium batteries ,more chance of explosion if something goes wrong ,its would be like a time bomb in your car.

In RC, Li-Po ment micro.... Micro heli's , planes making them possible to fly in your backyard. Micro heli's as small as a dragonfly all possible because of the output of a very tiny power source. Who knows, maybe some day your Li-Po starter batery might be hiden in your key that you bring with you at all time and by simply inserting it in a power outlet , giving the necesary power to start your car.... No more weather to deal with. Sci-Fi ???? Maybe , i'm just having a star-trek moment lol

True, and i hate recharging them for my RC toys, they also need to be stored in a "safe box" cause they can leak and catch fire. I've been using them for almost 5 years now and i never had one blow up or leak or catch fire even after nasty heli crashes. I'm sure 10 years from now those possibilities will be a detail.

Lead acid batteries explode too.

There were 2 Xout members in Europe that posted carnage threads here with pics of bomb batteries and acid in the rear electronic wells.

There are several bomb battery posts on E46fanatics too.

Looked into the MB S63 AMG 4MATIC battery, these are OE lithium ion (no heat blanket), passed the extreme cold weather testing done on all production MB vehicles.

Ive just heard alot about the small lithium batteries in cell phones and rcs exploding and the damage they do, therectically lithium are worse than acid batteries ,and yes I know led acid batteries can explode to I just think lithium would be worse for exploding . thats my opinion. I`m just comparing the lithium batteries in general with my drill battery which I can`t leave in the cold or it will temporary die till it warms up.

Yes they do...but the question I ALWAYS want to ask or consider when I hear/read of this on a BMW forum is...was the battery vented properly.

A lead-acid battery produces hydrogen gases as a by-product of the process it creates power/energy etc...and those are the gases that need to be vented to the exterior of the vehicle.

The gas doesn't explode without a spark...and what a lot of unknowledgeable owners don't realize is...a spark can be created when driving around town by a surge or quick overcharge by the alternator/charging system. The spark doesn't have to come from an outside source while working around the battery compartment. Thus the vent tube is designed to carry these gases a way when the battery produces them...which in turn can prevent the battery from exploding if a spark is introduced during an event where the gases could have accumulated in the non vented battery compartment.

The image below is an old image (from around 2003) that was from an e38 owner that hadn't vented his BMW lead-acid battery...which exploded when he had started the vehicle and was leaving a parking lot...it was my first "aha" moment of the real importance of battery venting:

BTW...another misconception that floats around the car forums is that AGM batteries don't require venting...but that's incorrect...they ALSO require proper venting to the exterior of the car.

+1

I thought I would be replacing my battery soon, X sat in the garage for 4 day during/after the last snowfall here. Hooked up charger prior to first start and saw 12.2 volts (never seen below 12.5v).

I've been checking voltage each morning and it's been 12.6v

I guess my battery still has some life left.

so after all this you might not be replacing your batt geeze you getting me going on those lithium batts lol ,glad to here your batt is keeping charge ,what make and is it the led acid?

Sorry!

It's a 2 yr old AutoZone lead acid unit. The OE battery lasted 8.5 yrs.

Whatever battery I go with next will be a long-life lithium ion unit. I already have a charger that has an AGM mode (14.5 volt cycle, 2,4,6,8 amp output) so I won't need to upgrade to a new charger.

Will watch the lithium ion technology evolve as the current battery goes.

This is the battery MB is starting to install in AMG models.....

Teslas
 

I see Teslas parked in the railroad parking lots all the time here in Connecticut in all 4 seasons............

I wonder about those who post about issues with power drill lithium ion battery packs in cold weather.

I charged both l-ion power packs for my Milwalkee drill yesterday, stuck them in the freezer (-2 deg F), over 24 hrs and both operated fine.

when my lithium batts are in the van overnight at -25 c they won`t run unless i warm them up for 20min

The power indicator on the drill dropped to 60% when batteries where removed from the freezer, after about 5 min of running they showed 100%.

The voltage on the battery does not just drop off immediately it is a protection on the battery. So once the voltage drops to a certain point it will shut off to prevent it from discharging itself to a point that would cause damage over time. I really do not think this would be an issue in a car. Your not just fully discharging your battery all the time anyways like you try to with an Li ion battery.

That said I would never spend that much money on a battery. It just isn't that big of a deal. I rarely keep a vehicle long enough to justify this anyways.

I don`t have the power indicator on my rigid drill .

quote me if I`m wrong but with lithium batts you can charge those anytime because they don`t have amemory like the nicad batts.

Correct.

Depending on discharge depth, a Lithium battery can do 5x as many cycles as lead acid. It can handle 80% depth of discharge (DOD) while lead acid handles 50%. If replacing a lead acid battery under two years old due to deep-cycling damage, you'll save in the long run switching to Lithium-ion.

If you run lith-ion below 80% it shortens their life.

You should never try to fully discharge a lithium battery and that's why there is a cutoff built into each pack for your drill, or, the drill has a cutoff. It's based off voltage wich is an inaccurate way of measuring discharge, but gets the job done. 80% discharge is industry standard at the moment which would leave 20% of 1c. C = capacity which would be the availible milliamperes or amps/hr. This being said you can see how measuring voltage is inaccurate. We will soon see systems that measure amp depletion instead of volts. In your drills case, this would be very benificial. They would then work at sub freezing temps and would carry a heavy tourque load until the battery is fully discharged to 20 % of 1c. All batteries loose voltage in colder temps and lithium batteries do this best. Your frozen battery on your drill is showing a lower voltage than the cut off.

which means in our -30c weather lith ion batteries would be no good cause batts loose there charge in cold weather .

They don't loose their charge in cold weather. The voltage drops. The amps are still there.

With lithium batteries being so much lighter, you can keep the voltage the same, but increase amps in the same demensions. A higher amp battery will produce a higher voltage under load compared to a battery with a lower amp rating. So it might be very well possible that a lithium car battery would perform better in colder conditions being that it has a higher voltage output due to a higher amp rating.

I'll say this. I don't believe MB would be installing these in cars if they were unusable in colder climates.

these batteries are just to new for me I guess I`m old school .I am sure MB did alot of testing on these batteries too.

Lol. Your not that old school. Your on the intraweb talking about the future of transportation advancement. :)

^ i know ,I also fix high end power wheel chairs that you can drive with only your head ,but most of the time for peolple that can use there hands with a joystick , i deal alot with the gel batteries for scooters and wheel chairs. now I know you can`t put gel batts in cars .

AGM is ideal for high burst discharge (start cycle) vs the gel cells ideal discharge of low/constant discharge (powering electric motors). The two batteries are very similar though.

the main thing with the gel batteries is they can`t take the constant charge from an alternator they will swell up and melt ,one of the guys at work tried one in his car and thats what happened . plus our battery supplier said the same thing.