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Anyone in Northern California who needs to get there Valve Seals Replaced?
I figure since I don't have any history on this X5 I picked up I figured I pull the trigger on the Valve Stem Seal Replacement since its up there in mileage and was wondering if any would be interested in helping each other out with this? Figured we go halfs on the tool to help keep the costs down. If anyone is interested let me know and will work something out.
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I might take a trip to Cali next spring and have all German auto do the work for me
They need the car for 2 days; 2700$-best price I could find If you get the tool, you can rent it out. |
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So, once again, read up on N62 valve stem seal failure. |
I wouldn't throw 3k on a repair just because I have no problem..
If you don't mind excessive oil consumption and a car that smokes, feel free not to replace the seals.and get ready to change the cats down the road too..I'm sure the OP is in the same boat. Mine just started doing it so it's not really that bad but bad enough that my friends have noticed the blue smoke at takeoff. Most people sell their cars when they find out they have valve stem seals issues. |
I posted another thread on here regarding some issue I had with the car. Trust me Im not doing this for my own health or for fun!!! As Helihover stated this is a very common issue for the X5's, 5 and 7 Series with oil consumption, burning and smoking out of the tailpipe. Mine is smoking at idle, traffic lights, drive through you name it. At first I thought it was the CCV which I replaced which resolved other issues I had but guess not this.
As stated on the forums and everywhere I read the valve seals tend to harden and wont seal and oil would sweep its way down. Ive read its happen as low as 70k miles and up. BMW should technically cover this but what can you do! Hope this sums up the reason why Im wanting to tackle this job and while Im at it hit out some of the other stuff as well. J |
Im about to start purchasing parts for the valve seals but would like to know what type of seals everyone is recommending?
BMW appears to have a newer style but it doesn't have the lip that seats on the valve guide. A few places online have Victor Reinz Seals red tops with seats. Does anyone know what AGA uses? Just need some feedback on what seats I should go with. Thanks in advance. |
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Bimmerfest member BMW645CA Location: Morgan Hill, CA Join Date: Sep 2013 Posts: 72 Mein Auto: BMW 645CI Sport Valve Steam Seals Replaced (He states - cheap about 2K) Victorious!! My smoking 645ci convertible is fixed! and whats even better it didnt cost me an arm and a leg. Luckily there is a well experienced an trusted technician here in the bay area (CA) that is able to do the job. J&B Superior Auto Repair (Jose) mobile mechanic. I highly recommend him to anyone experiencing the same embarrassing problem or other heavy labor job. This website has helped me out tremendously and I thought I should return the favor by passing on this excellent resources thats extremely affordable. Let me know if theres is anyone thats seaking this help, ill be glad to pass it on. Sent from BimmerApp mobile app Attached Thumbnails |
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Ok your turn to post another idiotic statement..... |
Sorry wasn't trying to start drama on here. I figured since the X is in the 200k range its about time to get them out anyways. I was just hoping to be able to get some miles from it before having to worry about this. :(
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Ok you win. Your right:)
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I take full responsibility to this. I should have been a little bit more clear on why I was wanting to do this. Helihover specified this is a common issue on these 4.4's and its not only just X5's but 5, 6 and 7 as well. He probably assumed you knew. But as stated I take responsibility for not clarifying why I was pulling the trigger. So I think we should just shake hands :high5: or high five and squash this! Everyone has bad days. :beerchug:
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So I live in Reno Nevada and travel to the Bay Area occasionally. I am looking for a good shop within driving distance to get his done on my wives 4.8is. It is smoking at 96k and I need to get another 20k out of the car prior to trade in. Any suggestions is the shop noted above an actual shop or just a mobile mechanic?
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on the side note if you are willing to drive down to LA All German Auto AGA the company that made the tool does appointments to get the seals done. They stated its 3 day job. just fyi. |
Gentlemen Gentlemen.......
This was a great thread to read. I feel you both on your viewpoints. I'm glad everyone is cool now.
I was about to buy a V8 with the N62 motor but I heard about this valve problem and decided to go with a 6 cylinder. I would totally do the valves if I had a chance because you will get pinched for emissions in California. I love California and emissions is one way we keep it clean. :-) I'm thinking of buying this X5 for sale 2011 BMW X5 M xDrive35i in La Porte TX from Benchmark any thoughts? |
So I talked with AGA today regarding the process and to confirm how things are done, any tips and hints they can provide and so forth and one of the ones that really stuck out to me is that some of the guys there are no longer putting air pressure into the cylinders while doing this job. They stated that they are saving so much more time doing it this way than dealing with filling the cylinder with air!
The reason I got is when they are at TDC and adding pressure into the cylinders at times the air pressure would push the piston down and causing a higher chance of valve dropping into the cylinders and fighting to get it back to TDC one handed, etc. Stated that its happened to a few but they had each other to assist with getting it back to TDC. From what they are stating If at TDC when doing these the valve will drop but will rest on the piston anyways so it will never drop into the cylinder and don't have to worry about that happening. Just thought I share what I heard it makes sense really and would shorten the process from reconnecting, disconnecting, reconnecting, etc with the air compressor! |
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I also started off by using compressed air, then, I just started doing it without (it was when I knew I wasn't at TDC, and the exhaust were open/leaking, so the compressed air was useless - I was at the end of exhaust cycle, because I tried saving time by not going the firing order sequence - the piston is still at the top). Saved a bit of time not needing to thread in/out the compressed air hose (I also called AGA once I started doing so, and they pretty much confirmed this - didn't tell them I dropped the air step at that time). |
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Good to know that you also did it without compressed air in the cylinders. They even stated that it saved them half the times work not doing that step. Also you dont have to worry about the air pushing it out of TDC either. When you did it...how far down will the valve go down sitting on the piston? |
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The shop hinted that some of that time included replacing things while they were in there, though they didn't specify exactly what. I'm hoping that I don't have to do it. They replaced my CCV valves and said to give it a few weeks to let any accumulated crud blow out. I'm on my 3rd week since the CCV's and it's still smoking - though not as much as it was before. |
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http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/o...ps42112f8a.jpg Valve stem pulled up with needle nose pliers (attention - gently so as not to scratch. Put electrical tape around the jaws) http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/o...psc4752cc3.jpg |
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I was in the same boat as you and replaced the CCV's and still have a smoking issue. Hate to say it but knowing that these are a common issue that would be the next step. Double check for leaky gaskets as that can cause oil to get sucked into the manifold through the CCV's. Hopefully you get lucky. Good luck! |
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Question....after you get the new seal installed when pulling up on the valve and start the reinstallation of the valve spring you use the tool to press the keepers back into place how do you keep the valve from dropping again since theres no pressure? Or are you letting it sit and compressing the spring all the way down while valve is sitting on the piston? |
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Piece of advice: take your time. Once you start getting tired, stop (you will, because you will be working a few times on a stool or something, and you will be bending over the engine - this will be taxing on the back). Also, make 100% sure you wrap rags around the open spaces of the engine. Don't forget the opening at the front, where the timing chain goes. You might work on one bank for 2 days (or more, pending on your time). Once you're done for the day, make sure you cover the open engine with a clean cloth, so no dust or dirt will get in. This area, usually is lubricated by already filtered oil, there are tiny passages that can be clogged in a hurry if you don't pay attention. |
I was referred to a shop in San Carlos
Bimmers independent service 800 El Camino Real, San Carlos, CA 94070 (650) 591-2474 Ask for Millenko I have yet to make contact but I will as soon as I can travel. |
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Ive been meaning to ask you regarding the intake valves...they appear to be harder to get to so wouldn't that be an issue if theres no air in the cylinders wouldn't the valve drop down to the point where it would be hard to put it back together? How far does the valve drop in the back do you remember? How reachable was it? |
Guys, just talked to a BMW master tech and got a quote of 1600$ + parts which is really cheap compared to other shops.BUT, he advised before I decide to bring it in that I should try 20W50 motor oil..I'm like what??
He said yea it would have been a problem when the engine was fairly new but now over 100k there won't be a problem. He said he's done it on a few smoking n62's and it did the trick ... I don't know as much as I wanna believe him I think that oil is too thick...what do you think? |
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Just a heads up! |
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Anyways as most people here will state no point on putting a band aid on a temp fix and putting in non recommended oil into the car. To me 20w50 seems pretty high. I don't see 10w40 being that much of an issue and some state that has cured the issue as its thicker oil but still doesn't cure the issue with the valve seals. Eventually you are going to have to get them done. I guess it really depends on the individual. If you want to cure the smoking but not the issue than thicker oil. If you want to cure the problem in general and have that comfort of knowing the issue is resolved than I would opt to fix it. But than again for $1600 I would just get it done! That's just me. |
Signature independent BMW.owner's name is Rick.
I asked how much he would charge and that's what I got-1600$ plus parts which still brings you well under 2000$ I'll get it done in the spring... Thing is, he said he used the AGA tool but it's more of a pain than help and that he is still pulling the heads to change the seals. Since he was the head of the service dept. at BMW Bellevue, he said he heard that they might be working on a recall for the N62 for the stem seals. Don't know if it's true or not but it would be nice to know something like that is even possible.. Just throwing all this info out there.. |
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For anything under 2k for that job removing the head and Im sure reconditioning is a very good price! Seriously jump on it before the pricing goes up. Just a simple calculation the AGA Tool is $750 + AGA Valve Kit $300 not including tax if applicable and shipping. That's over $1000 already. $600 - $800 more for the labor that's a no brainer. Now you can get the seal kit for less and the tool kit you can buy used for around $500 - $600 but still your saving yourself the headache, back aches, etc.....As stated if he was closer I would have just had him do mine. Hell I may even plan a road trip! I need a vacation anyways! :D As for the recall people have heard that forever. Not saying it may not happen but with me being at 200k Im sure I wont qualify for it. :( |
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I am stuck right now and may do the heavier oil. I have switched to slightly heavier oil but I think I may try a step up, will the 20-w50 cause any issues? I just need to move into my new house in December to get access to tools or to be able to spend 2k out of pocket.
Any issues using running 20-w50 for a few months? |
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So I was thinking since most people are pressurizing the cylinders to about 100psi and the risk of the air pushing the piston down is greater wouldn't it be better to put like half of that or even down to 30psi? Im just figuring all the air is doing is keeping the valve from falling so you can add the seals and push down on the keeps. That would reduce the risk of the air pressure pushing the cylinder down and dropping a valve. And if at TDC with both valves close IF the valve was to drop down as the pressure wasn't enough it would fall onto the piston where you can still grab it? Just pondering here. |
Both valves should be closed - in their most upper position
The 100 psi value works with the leak-down tester. that's when it stabilizes. you can use whatever pressure you want, just make sure the battery is not hooked up. |
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I did both. With air at the beginning, without after a couple pistons, once I figured out I can do without. In a weird way, the intakes didn't slide down. The exhaust were, a couple times. Then I used air, even though it was leaking. No issues.
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I have a quick favor to ask. I just picked up a used kit and the seller didn't even send me any of the paper work to do the job so I don't know what foot pegs to use, etc.... Just my luck. Anyways is there anyway you can send me copies of what came with the kit? scanned emailed, mailed, etc.... whatever works best. |
I will
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Speaking of changing the oil to band aid the issue, I've heard that as well from a German Indy shop. Owner said to try 10w50 and it should do the trick. He mentioned they've done that to several cars already and so far so good. Not that something I'd personally do or approve of, but thought this info should be shared.
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Here is what will happen: If the N62 engine will start smoking, and you fix the problem soon enough, you probably cured it. For good. If you leave it like that, you might induce another problem. Look at the pic below, where you have the O.E seal with a few months, very little mileage smoking issue, and Elring Klinger seals. The difference is self explanatory http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/o...pse6401fb7.jpg The opening where the valve stem travels is growing bigger and bigger. The next thing will happen, is the valve stem will rub against the guide, and will wear it down. There are quite a few N62 long time smoking engines, where the owner finally decided to fix the problem, and once the engine was taken apart, this issue was obvious. So what happens next, is you need to change the valve stem guides, and pray that the rocker arms are not affected by this. Tolerances are very tiny here. 0.02 |
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anyways you are a saver thank you! hopefully Ill be able to hit this out this weekend or at least get it started anyways. |
I know that thicker oil is less than ideal I just can not make it happen any sooner than December. I want to limit the amount of oil hitting the cats
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Any thoughts
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Check your intake manifold for oil
If your v8 x5 is smoking, after prolonged idle: pull off your air intake and push open your throttle flap. It's wet with oil, no? That's what's causing your smoke.
Valve stem seals cannot EVER leak oil into your intake manifold. If Valve stem seals fail, they can only cause a puff of blue smoke on startup. Why? because oil SLOWLY drips down past the seal and into the combustion chamber. Starting the engine instantly burns off the tiny amount of oil and the heat causes the valve stem seal to swell and re-seal...that's it. Valve stem seals do not and cannot cause smoke after prolonged idling. Please stop espousing the valve stem seal myth. The only reason the "repair" fixes the smoke issue is because your mechanic has to replace every other sealing surface on the top of your motor. The new gaskets renew your engine's vacuum seal. The EGR system needs a constant vacuum in order pull the PRVs closed. No vacuum? PRVs stay open and oil gets pulled into the intake manifold; causing the clouds of smoke that so many have wrongly attributed to valve stem seals. Properly functioning PRVs prevent oil from being sucked into your intake manifold. No oil in your intake manifold, no possibility of clouds of blue smoke after prolonged idle. It has nothing to do with the valve stem seals, themselves. Doing the same job, Sans valve stem seal replacement, will yield the same result. But, you don't have to do the entire job. There are numerous other things that can be done that are infinitely easier. start identifying your oil leaks: vacuum pump? Oil pressure sensors? Oil filler cap? Dip stick o-rings? Adhering to BMW's oil recommendation of 0-40w? VANOS o-rings? Fix those issues and then, if necessary, move on to replacing the harder parts: intake manifold gaskets; valve and timing cover gaskets Just please stop telling people to replace their valve stem seals. |
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I've seen BMW dealer machanics on this site state bad seals will cause smoke at prolong idle. One even had a way of determining how long before they would last by timing how long it took to produce smoke. I have seen this twice on my M62. I move it 15 feet to wash it which the cold engine only ran 30 seconds or so. Next start up a little puff of smoke. I believe this was due to cold valve stem seals not up to temp and not sealing so I understand what you are saying. This is the first time I've read an intelegent explanation of the other side of things. |
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- If you're going to replaced your valve cover gaskets, you may as well replace your valve stem seals if this tool is available. - In theory, the valve stem seals are as the valve cover seals in respect to a sealed crankcase system for proper ventilation function. |
I have taken apart the intake and seen a heavy film of oil in the intake but no puddles. Is a film a sign that there are other sealing issues or will it be a puddle? My 4.8is gets pretty smokey after extended idle but produces no smoke what so ever at startup no matter the oil weight or temperature.
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It's weird, because I had no oil in the throttle body, yet I had HEAVY smoking after more than 2 minutes idling. I also had an unusually high oil consumption.
As A B Able truck said, once you work on those seals, you "normally" would replace every seal.... But there are people who tried mitigating the smoking issue by only changing the VCG and related gaskets/seals, and the end was only a reduced tailpipe smoking result..... So I guess, there are situations & situations, and not a myth. Good for you if this worked in your case, but I would not encourage people to believe it's only the gaskets & related seals to only find out after doing this job, that the smoking issue persists (and you have now to re-do the job plus another one). I would also not encourage people to think that the valve stem seals are the only issue for a smoking N62 bimmer. The situation has to be diagnosed properly. In my case, it took me a longer time, without using scanners etc (which probably would have expedite the diagnose), but by driving that thing for months and opening up/closing different components and checking the state of them, plus some other random "tree shade mechanic" tests. |
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back to normal now. |
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Been reading everything I can as often as possible regarding the smoking issue with these cars and of course the common things would be CCV, gaskets, O-rings, etc... Its still a known issue on these cars that the valve seals are also a weak point and eventually will give. It does make sense for people who do the valve seals do end up replacing gaskets while they are at it as its right there and saves time and money to just hit it out all at once and in theory that could be the reason for the smoking cure is the gaskets and seals being replaced and not the seals but also keep in mind its also a state of comfort that the seals have been replaced as well. The way I look at it...if you are handy and able to do the job and since the valve cover gasket is going to get replaced anyways I would just hit the valve seals at the same time. That's just my theory and is why Im going that route. Just adding my 2 cents on things.
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I, too, fell prey to the "while you're at it" crowd. I replaced the coolant transfer pipe while replacing my upper engine seals. There was a useless tool for that as well...but thats another tale about why one should understand a part's potential for failure BEFORE assuming failure could, in any way, exhibit symptoms stated as the reason for said part's replacement. On the e53's N62? no. On previous versions, possibly? Anyway. My comments about the valve stem seal fallacy narrowly apply to an engine that meets ALL of the following criteria: - at operating temperature - after a period of prolonged idle - puffs/clouds of bluish smoke envelope the world behind you as you accelerate from the aforementioned state of prolonged idle. My comments do not broadly apply to any of following: - Pure white whisps, puffs, clouds of smoke - Congrats to the >99% that have found the dew point. My condolences to the unlucky <1% that have coolant making its way into their combustion chamber (and, likely, oil) - bluish puff or cloud on startup - you have found the fabled valve stem seal issue. The automotive world and modern science would like to know, please, how you managed to torture your vehicle into such a sad state of disrepair. Please join the <1% in the coolant club as you have likely severly overheated your engine. If your vehicle falls into the narrowly defined yet widespread blue-cloud-off-of-idle problem, continue reading. Quote:
My point is, valve stem seals cannot fail in the way you, A B Able, have stated without also exhibting the other symptoms. No oil-cloud on startup, no failed valve stem seal. Quote:
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So, in your opinion, the "valve stem seals failure" is hoax, and AGA & the owner are crooks, because of this statement (below vid)?, or they have no idea what they're talking about. Excuse me, but I trust them:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=AE5PsbHgzM4 |
you got to it first
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I was just about to post a link to the same video. I watched it again last night and now I'm planning to go take a trip and see their shop. They are close by and really seem to know what's up with BMWs. I think he(All German Auto) is right, I also think there may be more to this issue than just what I know. I'll show him this thread if I meet him and ask him what his thoughts are. |
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The consensus was that the heavy smoking at idle is either due to failed valve stem seals, or failed valve guides, or both. I believe that if this was only a sealing issue (VCG & all other related seals & gaskets), ALL these shops would have pointed to that direction, these cars are not new, and by now word would have spread around to change VCG & seals if smoking - not the case. It also seems that in the US (by the on-line research I did), the smoking issue points again to these 2 issues, and I think one will trigger the other if not addressed (valve stem seals start degrading, if not addressed they degrade further and allow the valve stem to be in contact with the guide, wearing it out). P.S.: they also told me that if I can live with it, if doesn't bother me, and that the repair bill is xxxx $, and that it's cheaper to add oil in the long run.... |
McDonald D; (I didn't want to quote your post cause we'd be on page 10 in no time) You're really stretching it with the headers, cats, etc. - unless you've sucked down enough oil to plug them.
I guess my main point with the "you're in there anyways" comment was; - The valve stem seals are what $20-$30 and the AGA tool can be rented or purchased, then resold easily. Wouldn't it suck if you went thru the trouble & expense of replacing your valve cover gaskets only to find out that you needed stem seals afterwards? (I hear valve covers gaskets are a pain on the N62 and you may as well replace your spark plugs while there) Yes, any repair can be up sold to include a large fry or apple pie with your order. (It's your choice) In my situation, I'm done owning a BMW and can't wait to sell this thing. As soon as I fix my transmission issue and buff the headlights it's going up for sale. And considering the fallacy inundating these forms as to oil consumption and stem seals, I'm hoping a potential buyer would be eager to purchase mine since the seals have already been replaced with the updated version. (Needed or not) |
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