Help - e53 Knocking from transmission - VIDEO
 

Hi guys

hoping someone can help with some internet diagnosis as it's a public holiday here and no mechanics open.....

This sound has crept up on me in the last 24 hours.....

It's present from about 20 seconds from start up, in all gears, and including when driving or rolling in neutral.

I have run BMW Scan 1.4.0 and no codes present

Using a garden hose and a screw driver as a listening device, it's not coming from the top end, not coming from the block - but I can hear it clearly through the transmission mounting point and it's coming directly out of the inspection hole under the transmission (which is where the first video is shot from)

Torque converter, flex plate, flywheel......I'm at a loss?

http://vid16.photobucket.com/albums/...ps11s0verf.mp4

This second vid shows the sound settling in soon after startup, it increases with a rev and then dies off after the revs return to idle but quickly comes back.

http://vid16.photobucket.com/albums/...pszxlgfvjz.mp4

Any help much apppreciated

is it possible the fly wheel is loose?

No idea, I can't see much through the inspection hole and although i did stick a screwdriver in there while the car was off to see if I could sense any play, no luck.

The car itself seems to be driving fine. Just sounds crook and not very 'BMW'.

IMO I wouldn`t drive the x5 until you know exactly what that noise is?

Sounds like a LOTUS, Lots Of Trouble Usually Serious.

If it was a petrol engine I would say it was piston slap.

It's puzzling that you don't hear it topside, because I agree that it is extremely similar to the sound of piston slap. I had that exact problem in a GM diesel when three wrist pin bushings wore out. My second thought would have been valve train since it was so constant with RPM. But if you can really only hear it from the bottom end, I have to lean towards a rod bearing.

2002 X5 3.0 265,360 miles
2004 325i 116,000 miles

Diesel History - 1981 Pontiac Bonneville 5.7L Diesel 264,000 miles

I would unhook the oil pressure sending unit and hook a gage up.

Thanks guys, I will take it to an Indy today and see what they say.

I forgot to mention, at the end of the video I had to crop off the section where I took off the oil cap and listened to the valve train - the sound isn't related, different frequency.

I hope this is a simple fix, but my gut says otherwise.


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I took it past a trusted mechanic this morning. He and another guy spent about 20 mins with it up on the hoist with a stethoscope trying to diagnose, but were pretty baffled. Hard to isolate the noise.

He feels it isn't a bottom end knock as they're normally present from the moment the engine starts, where as mine comes on about 20sec after starting (cold or hot). Obviously there are no certainties without opening the motor, but he did feel that it was a top end issue, perhaps a sticking lifter that was perhaps echoing down. His advise at this stage is to drop the oil, inspect for metal, then put in an lifter additive (not his preference, but at this stage he said anything is worth a go).

I'd already planned to do an oil and filter change this weekend, so I guess we'll wait and see.

Has anyone done a hardcore engine flush before? Something like Liqui Moly Engine Detox? I don't generally like putting in additives as they're often bandaid fixes, and an all out engine flush could dislodge some nasty stuff and move it into places it doesn't want to be........but any feedback is welcome.

Not much help, but I can say that my diesel doesn't make this noise.

Could it be the oil pump? (as it goes away when driving)

Maybe the oil is too light a weight? :dunno:

It's all a mystery at this stage. Easiest and cheapest investigative approach is to dump the oil, check for metal, cut the filter media apart, check for debris. Put new oil in, stuff that I know is correct (I have NFI what is in there now) and pray to baby jeebus.

Going to try do this tonight.....

I found the oil change very easy on this car, but make sure you have the right size tools.

Seem to recall the drain plug being 17mm, easy one but on a bit of an odd angle from memory.

The oil filter I am pretty sure on mine was a 32mm socket.
I tried multi-type of grips etc, but I had to buy the right size socket in the end, as it just wouldn't budge with anything else (Supercheap has them).
Super simple with the right size though!
Easiest and cleanest oil filter I have changed.

I use 5w-40 in mine, I think the manual also states 0w-30 can be used, but I feel it is just a bit thin.

Thanks mate. Yep, I got the 32mm socket....funnily enough, everywhere I read said it was a 36mm socket, so when I walked out of the store with my 36mm socket and tried a test fit in the car park.....I was at a bit of a loss. Took a bit of trial and error to work back to a 32mm!

I'm putting Motul 8100 X-Clean in it as it meets all the BMW requirements

Motul 8100 X-clean 5w40 - 1L | Clickable Automotive

I am in a Penrite phase at the moment, so used HPR5 5w-40 in mine, which is working well.
I'm sure the Motul will be equally up to the job.

As far as a flush goes, I have never tried anything.
I just drain and put in the new oil for my first change, and then change a bit sooner for the second change.
Then back to a normal interval for the next change.

Help - e53 Knocking from transmission - VIDEO
 

So I did a liquid moly engine flush, fully synthetic Motul oil 5w-40 change, filter and put in a liqui moly lifter additive. No change.

Tried unplugging each injector individually to see if I could isolate a cylinder. No change.

Only good news at this stage is there was no metal in the oil when I dumped it.

I think I'm going to have to bite the bullet and give it to BMW, if anyone can work it out, they can.

Only thing I can think it could be if it internal is the main crank pulley dampener, or something post torque converter.....it's just so rhythmic that it seems unlikely.

I did put an engine cleaner through mine. I waffled on if for a bit, but finally did it. Mine you dumped in and let idle for 10-15min then drain the oil. I also dropped the pan to check for plastic/metal and was relieved to find none. Other than the crap from the valve cover job the shop did sloppily..... :)

I would be ok with a flush, but not oil additives (like stop leak, etc.). Some of that stuff is like molasses and I could see it plugging up some of those small lubrication passages.

Hope its just an injector knock ;)

An update.

Shop did a balance test on the engine and found #6 cylinder out of spec.

Did a backflow test on the injectors and found 5 injectors were returning flow within spec but #6 way out. So #6 injector is shot.

Manifold came off and shop removed injectors and glow plugs for inspection. Found that #6 injector flange was broken, and injector was not sealing against the cylinder allowing compression to leak out.

Also needs CCV, Air filter, Fuel filter, EGR clean, glow plugs and glow plug controller replaced.....total of $3k. Some of this stuff I can do myself and had already purchased the parts pre-emptively - but the faulty injector is the bulk cost of the ordeal.

So my first week of X5 ownership has not done a lot to quiet the Break My Wallet stereotype! :-/

Assuming that the sound heard at the transmission area was just the piston slap echoing down through that chamber in the car - and being the rear most cylinder explained why it was better heard underneath than from the front of the car with the hood up.

Will keep you all posted.

Hi Mat,
As mentioned to you via PM on 5th,ideally you should connect car to Bmw diag and get them to check the injector readings,as the knock noise could be injector!!As you found out,sometimes you really need to hook up your car to BMW diag equipment ,as other diagnostic equipment fails to register problems,although INPA is pretty good.
Can you tell me what the injector 6 value was on diag?
If it wasnt sealing ,have they checked the washer / o-rings?
You have 2 different issues here !Out of spec and not sealing.Many times we got out of spec corrected by simply cleaning the injectors exits as they get blocked.

Help - e53 Knocking from transmission - VIDEO
 

Hey Fernando. All injectors were returning 30ml flow where as #6 was returning 70ml back flow.

Apparently the reason the injector wasn't sealing is the flange that holds it secure is snapped and it was rattling around loose and letting compression out.

Quote is to recut the seat for injector 6, new injector and replace all washers, seals and clamps on all six injectors. All the seals and washers stuff is cheap and it's almost a case of may as well do it while we're in here.....which I don't mind, the expensive part is the new injector.

If you PM me your email i am happy to forward you a copy of the work order?


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Well, it's just getting better.

So I have contacted the dealer, who has of course pointed me in the direction of the warranty company who is managing the 12 month warranty that he (in effect me) bought for the car.

The warranty company has said I need to take the car to one of their authorised repairers for diagnosis. I explained that the car is sitting at a mechanic with the manifold removed and two injectors out.....which was required in order to establish that it was in fact an injector issue, and thus a warrantable item. The estimate is $3k. They don't care, and they won't approve his quote under any circumstance. So I have paid $250 to have the problem diagnosed, and now have to pay to have the car reassembled (not fixed) and drive to their mechanic. IF their approved mechanic diagnoses an injector fault, max payout is $1250 (which is basically what an injector costs). So I'll be $400 down for the initial mechanic's work, plus have to pay to re-diagnose the same problem and establish the injector is at fault (warranty company requires injector to be sent for bench testing ....also at my expense) PLUS have to pay any gap to the 'approved' repairer on the total job.

So it's a bit of a headache, and either way I'm going to end up heavily out of pocket.

OR - I try invoke my statutory warranty against the dealer, which means engaging Dept of Fair Trading, which can ultimately end up in court. All the while my car remains un-repaired.

Obviously this can happen to anyone, so it's just bad luck - and if I'd bought the car privately I'd have no option but to pay it all myself.....but it just leaves a filthy taste in my mouth knowing the car has been driven less than 150km's since I took delivery and already I'm coughing up.

Rant over.

Course of action from here is to have all the work done EXCEPT installing a new injector. Also getting things like PCV, fuel filter, EGR etc taken care of at the same time. Hopefully by replacing the injector cradle/cap, putting a new set of washers and seals in it will stop the compression leak and just may fix it - if not we'll know 100% it's the injector and I'll be able to dump it at the feet of the 'approved mechanic' and accept nothing less than a new injector under warranty.

Sad to hear of your problems SMOKEY53.

The statutory warranty over-rides the 12 months extra bought warranty.
As long as you are under 10 years old and 160,000 kms, the statutory warranty applies for the first 3 months / 5000 kms.
The dealer should pay for all the repairs, and even towing if it is undriveable.

You are meant to contact the dealer where you bought the car first though, before having anything done, otherwise thay can pretty much say bugger off on the statutory warranty.

Whatever happens, I hope you get this sorted quickly, so that you can actually drive and enjoy your beast.

Good luck.

Mat,

Something screwy is going on here. If yours takes the same injectors as mine (part number 13537789670), then they are available for under 200 bucks ex-Germany. Don't die in a ditch over genuine BMW - the injectors will likely be Bosch anyway

Yep, I'm aware. I did contact the dealer first, he told me to get it diagnosed at a mechanic. So I did that. Then contacted him with the verdict, he deferred it to the warranty company. Warranty company said I should have contacted THEM first and that they didn't authorise the diagnosis so won't pay for it - but I pointed out that I had to do the diagnosis in order to establish that it is a warrantable item. I'm basically getting ping ponged between them both, neither wanting to pay out.

Mean while my car is sitting in pieces and my partner and I are making do with one car.

I know that I could pursue stat warranty, but they're only required to repair it to a condition commensurate with the age and km's, so they're already talking about putting a second hand injector from a wreckers in etc.....I just want the car fixed, and fixed right through a reputable business. Not a Band-Aid job to get me outside the warranty period. The dealer is also within his rights to tell me to take it to someone else for a second opinion, in which case I'd have to pay to get it put back together just so I can take it somewhere else. Trust me when I tell you that this dealer is as crooked as a question mark, I only know that now in hindsight. As an example, his first response when I told him of the issue and asked what he'd like to do as a next step was to tell me I had no statutory warranty because the car was unregistered when it was delivered; which is a blatant lie.

Ants, that's an interesting piece of info. The injector part # is the same on the quote as what you've listed, and the RRP is $1,339+GST :wow: It's no surprise when these mobs get a bit shirty when you offer to supply your own parts....


As I said, I've pretty much opted to do all the maintenance work required to get it in order EXCEPT the injector. If it all goes back together and the problem is still there, even if intermittent, then we'll know 100% that it's the injector and I'll hopefully get that replaced under warranty.

Just checked eBay - right you are ! But like I said, hard to find a workshop that will let you supply your own parts.....their labour is $140 an hour but you take that 30-50% mark-up on parts away from them and they start to get a little less accommodating, and you'd end up paying the difference in inflated labour.

Things like the smoke on startup - mine does that. But I'm not worrying about it until winter comes around again as I'm certain it's either glow plugs and/or controller. And aftermarket Tridon glow plugs (nothing wrong with them) are about $30 each...

Even the injector - would be worth talking to a diesel specialist about getting yours refurb'd.

If it were in Canberra, I'd recommend Cooma Diesels, but in Melb, mate I have no idea sorry :(

Sometimes you are better of saying "Sorry guys, I can't afford to do this right now, can you please put the car back together and I'll just have to take it home and park it for a while"....

Then take it home and do it all yourself :)

Easy enough for me to say - I'm a qualified mechanic - but they are pretty ballsy carrying on the way they are.

Those warranty mobs are pirates. Pure and simple I reckon.

Not exactly an engine flush but I used to do it on all my E39's...
Drain the oil, put the plug back, pour in the engine 1 gallon of diesel , start the engine briefly for 3 seconds then shut off, let it sit for about 15 seconds then start again for 3 seconds and turn off.
Drain the diesel , follow with the filter and oil change.

Yeh - well as an example, my BMW Scanner said glow plug #3 was faulty. They've recommended replacing all 6 + controller at total cost of $600+gst.

Do you reckon that it effects running performance though? or just cold start. I've found documentation that they're active on startup and when coolant is under 30degrees and also have an afterburn function when coolant is below 25degrees. Workshop says they help burn off emissions returned to the cylinder by EGR - but planning to blank EGR off anyway. So just not sure if it's worth replacing them just for peace of mind?

To be perfectly honest, you would probably never NEED glow plugs living in Melbourne. If you went up to Buller or Hotham, sure. But not Melb. They WILL kick in with low coolant temps, but that doesn't affect us here in Aus - we just don't get the truly cold temps.

My SOLE reason for doing the glow plugs next winter is to stop the puff of smoke on startup. Only reason. Mate, mine went through last winter here in Hobart without a worry in the world, and I know my glow plugs are dodgy.

With the glow plug controller, you get an aftermarket one for about $75 or $80.

With regard to burning of emissions - they are bullshitting you. The SOLE purpose of a glow plug is to assist combustion at low temps, or until the engine has reached operating temp. That is all they do. Even before the engine reaches operating temp, it is capable of maintaining combustion purely through compression anyway. Just might be a little more soot out the pipes.

Yeh agree, although this is the mechanic I chose - not the warranty mob. The warranty mechanic, I went and spoke to him, and he said he'd be replacing as little as possible - just whatever it took to make it run right. He didn't care how many times it came back, but his instructions are to fix it as cheaply as possible - which doesn't create much confidence.

Normally I would tackle this kind of job myself, but I don't have a garage - only a communal underground carpark at my apartment building - and from what I've read, the injectors can be a dog to get out - and the glow plugs have a tendency to snap off in the head. Guarantee if it can happen, it WILL happen to me - at this rate! Car is cursed....

Glow plugs - the trick with them is to do them when the engine is hot. Means you have to work quick to get the intake manifold stripped off after the engines been run for a while, but that's the best way. And always tighten them a smidge before loosening them. That's just a generic statement about parts like that anyway.

I know your situation - I don't have a workshop anymore either. Everything I do is in the open air, and it SUCKS!

With regard to parts, any mechanic should be happy for you to supply your own parts. Make it clear that you will supply all the parts you are able, and that obviously you don't expect them to warrant the part - just their labour. If they are legit, they should have no probs with it. After all - it could very well mean they get MORE Business out of you, rather than less.

Thanks mate, if it needs injector done under warranty then I might buy the parts and get the glow plugs sorted at the same time - given manifold will be off again anyway. Will cross that bridge when I get to it.

Good to have a diesel brother on the forums!

Yeah, makes sense to throw glow plugs at it at the same time. Looks like it would be a half-day job for me to do them, so a decent amount of work.

Us oil burners have to stick together :)

Update time. Wanted to close this out because I find it so damn frustrating when I'm trying to research things on forums when someone starts a thread, asks for and accepts all the help in the world - and then never posts the outcome. So.

Had the injector seals replaced, new clamping cradle (not a technical term) fitted to hold the injector down, EGR cleaned, PCV replaced and fuel filter replaced. New manifold gaskets and seals etc. Mechanic figured out that the person who replaced the rocker cover gasket (which coincidentally happened immediately before I took delivery of the car as it was picked up during PPI and I demanded it be fixed) must have levered against the injector - in the process bending the stud attached injector - thus allowing the compression leak. Unbelievable. Picked the car up this morning and it's a lot quieter and idles smoothly.

So obviously the sound of that compression leaking out past the injector was the cause of the fearful knock.

Mechanic has suggested that the injector is still bad, that the backflow test shows that and that the car will be down on power and using more fuel. But considering the backflow test was conducted before the injector was sealed (and not again after) I don't know......

I could get in there again and replace the injector for peace of mind, but if the car is running fine and not throwing any codes, it might just be labour in vain. Will keep an ever watchful eye on it.

Can upload a video of the backflow test for anyone interested, otherwise - consider this chapter of the nightmare is over! For now.

Thanks for all your help!

Update time. Wanted to close this out because I find it so damn frustrating when I'm trying to research things on forums when someone starts a thread, asks for and accepts all the help in the world - and then never posts the outcome. So.

Had the injector seals replaced, new clamping cradle (not a technical term) fitted to hold the injector down, EGR cleaned, PCV replaced and fuel filter replaced. New manifold gaskets and seals etc. Mechanic figured out that the person who replaced the rocker cover gasket (which coincidentally happened immediately before I took delivery of the car as it was picked up during PPI and I demanded it be fixed) must have levered against the injector - in the process bending the stud attached injector - thus allowing the compression leak. Unbelievable. Picked the car up this morning and it's a lot quieter and idles smoothly.

So obviously the sound of that compression leaking out past the injector was the cause of the fearful knock.

Mechanic has suggested that the injector is still bad, that the backflow test shows that and that the car will be down on power and using more fuel. But considering the backflow test was conducted before the injector was sealed (and not again after) I don't know......

I could get in there again and replace the injector for peace of mind, but if the car is running fine and not throwing any codes, it might just be labour in vain. Will keep an ever watchful eye on it.

Can upload a video of the backflow test for anyone interested, otherwise - consider this chapter of the nightmare is over! For now.

Thanks for all your help!

Glad you got it sorted :thumbup:

You are spot on !Lots of people ask for help on the Forum and then dont bother to provide feedback when they fixed the problem!

I PMed you my email,for you to send the injector readings but havent received it:dunno:

Just one thing !When the mechanic removed the injector with 70ml return reading ,why didnt he clean the injector and then take another reading?

Anyway ,important thing is you fixed the knock sound ,which is what this thread is about and doesnt matter who initially suggested to you that the noise could be injector knock ;)

Thanks Fernando, you the man! 😉

Can send you the vid but it's nothing interesting - heaps of fuel going into one of the containers, not much into the other 5!

Coming home tonight I pulled a u-turn on to an empty 4 lane road and gave it full throttle as I straightened up - it pulled like a train - first time since I have had the car that it's felt right.


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