E70 X5 ATF fluid experience with Febi 34608?
 

I'm looking at doing an ATF drain and refill on my 2011 35d. Looks like it uses either OEM ZF Lifeguard 6 (around $20-24/qt online; partially synthetic) or the genuine BMW fluid (very overpriced at around $40/qt). However, it appears that Febi 34608 ATF ($10/qt online at rmeuropean.com) is certified for the required Shell M-1375.4 spec (per literature was created specifically for the 6 speed transmissions). Not sure if it's partial or fully synthetic. I am looking at ordering 6 liters and will probably do a drain and fill every 40k or so.

BMW X5 xDrive35d Sport Utility E70 3.0L L6 Automatic Transmission Fluid (1 Liter)

Anyone with direct experience using Febi 34608 ATF? Of note, Pentosin ATF1 (a fully synthetic ATF; ~$18/qt) is also approved based on approval spec sheets (ZF TE-ML 11B and Shell M-1375.4)--looks like a great option as well.

Nope, I use the ZF fluid, why would you take a chance?
Genuine ZF Parts

I am using ZF fluid now.

on our previous X5 (2002 4.4) I used quakerstate multipurpose. it is sold under other brand names too (penzoil I think) found documentation it satified the spec. drained the pan every other oil change. traded in at 170k without issues. I can't find this fluid anymore.

if it meets the spec why not?

I used Pentosin ATF1. I didn't notice any increase or decrease in performance after using it, but my transmission had pre-existing issues before the change. Many people have used it without issue. You can get it in 5L jugs on Amazon for $12/L. I used 11L for two pan drops.
https://www.amazon.com/Pentosin-1058...dp/B00JMAQ0LW/

Just becuase the fluid meets misc specs does not mean it is ZF approved for that trans.... It isnt

This is one of those Ven diagrams problems that people get wrong...

ZF6 is the only fluid recommended or spec'd by ZF for this transmission

ZF6 is complies with Shell M-1375.4

Febi whatever fluid also meets Shell M-1375.4

This does not mean that Febi is approved for the ZF transmission



I will also opine that could use almost anything and wont notice anything for months or years...or never.

Does saving a few bucks every 50k really matter??? Even doing a 2x drain and fill its only 100-150 you save.

We have a saying in our business...... Price is irrelevant.

Of course this may be a bit of a stretch for some, but when it comes to protecting assets that cost thousands of dollars, as far as lubricants go, price is truly irrelevant.

As an update, did the drain and refill using the Febi/Bilstein 34608 ATF (used a little over 5 quarts). Has been working great with no issues. Based on spec sheets (see attached), the BMW ZF 6 speed transmission utilizes Shell M-1375.4 fluid (see pages 6 and page 7 for E70 cars with I6 and V8 engines).

In the same note, so long as the fluid meets and is certified for the specification, it should be fine. Otherwise, I would imagine you would ONLY use genuine BMW fluids--genuine BMW engine oil, genuine BMW DOT4 brake fluid, genuine BMW rear differential fluid, genuine BMW BlueDef (if you have a diesel), and dare I say genuine BMW washer fluid? A bit overkill. If the fluid didn't meet specification, that's a different story. Of note, I stuck with genuine BMW transfer case fluid as there's no substitute, given there is no listed/known specification for it. Of course, everyone is welcome to use what they are comfortable with paying.

agree.

:thumbup:

You are confused. BMW and ZF recommend one fluid. This fluid happens to also meet M-1375.4

This does not mean all fluids that meet that spec are 'recommended'.

It is pretty simple logic. (Venn diagram stuff...)

Now, if you want to go outside of the recommended fluids, that is fine- and I might even say it is likely to be technically sound- but you ARE outside of the recommendations.

I totally agree that there is likely nothing magical about BMW recommendations- but given that both BMW and ZF have not published a complete spec other than ZF6, it is a disservice to try and say 'all you need is shell M175.4 to meet all the BMW (or ZF) requirements'

Not long ago BMW recommended Castrol - even the oil cap says this!:-) - and now magically Shell is the way to go...

Febi is OK. It's likely the very same fluid found in ZF bottles, from the same manufacturer, just different distributor.

Regarding washer fluid, whatever you decide to use, do NOT use Rain-X. I did up until recently and had to replace two washer pumps on the X5. Likely cause of failing washer pumps on my previous BMWs.

BMW published data that their E70 transmissions (ZF happens to build them) use ATF with Shell M1375.4 specifications. Shell was the original manufacturer (and they for a time made that exact fluid, but sometime around 2011, they stopped making it and it became quite scarce to find (was $7/quart when I had my E53), and apparantly in the past couple years a few other manufacturers picked up where the niche was since for a time only ZF and BMW were the only 2 options and doing some relative price gouging.

Definitely agree that fluid "approval" does not necessarily equal "recommendation." There's more to it.

As you can see in the previous documents provided, BMW E70 transmissions call for Shell M-1375.4 ATF. Whatever those exact technical specifications be, any fluid to be approved for a particular specification would need to meet what was outlined by the manufacturer. So approved fluids for M-1375.4 specifications needed to meet those specs. Febi 34608 and Pentosin ATF1 happen to meet M-1375.4, with Pentosin ATF1 even went ahead and got further testing to also being approved for ZF's own TE-ML11B specification for 6 speed transmissions.

How does one get "approval" for a specification? You would need to submit your fluid and tested to the specs from the original specifications. You don't put an approval stamp on your fluid without risk of litigation for false advertisement for poor performance and/or damage. RMEuropean, Pelican, FCPEuro, and AutohausAZ, among other retailers stock, list and sell this Febi/Bilstein fluid (along with ZF LG6, genuine BMW, and Pentosin ATF1) for my 2011 35d. Heck, FCPEuro even lists genuine BMW M1375.4 ATF for sale for my car: https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/bmw...er-83222220445

Now how does one get a "recommendation"? Of course BMW would "recommend" their own fluid, and of course, ZF would "recommend" their own LifeGuard 6 fluid. Why would they want to "recommend" Febi/Bilstein 34608 or Pentosin ATF1, when they have their own interests in play? There would be licensing fees charged to Febi/Bilstein or Pentosin to get that and the cost savings would not be so apparant.

Likewise as "Price" mentioned, why does BMW all of sudden recommend Shell recently, when in the past (probably past few decades) it was all Castrol fluids? Heck my Mercedes "recommends" Mobil1, but that's not the only oil I use in there--I use oil that meets objective specifications my car calls for. Think marketing and licensing fees involved and maybe some other financial incentives for the recent BMW "recommendation" to Shell?

According to BMW, 6 and 8 speed transmissions in LCI E70 are specified for ATF2.

Great clarification--thank you.

All pre-LCI E70 gas-engined (2007-2010) and all E70 diesels (2009-2013)used 6 speed ZF transmissions (which my post on the Febi 34608 ATF (and on the side, to Pentosin ATF1) pertains to--only 6 speed transmissions).

Whereas, the LCI E70 gas-engined (2011 and above; with twin turbo gas I6 or twin turbo gas V8 engines) have 8 speed transmissions, which use ZF Lifeguard 8 or apparently BMW ATF2 (or their spec-approved equivalents, which I have not personally looked into).

If you look-up realoem, X535D from 07/20111 calls for ATF2. Perhaps ATF1 and 2 are the same, but who knows really.

2 MONTH UPDATE

About 6 weeks after changing to Febi/Bilstein ATF 34608 (Shell M-1375.4 approved), I noticed my car was shifting a bit hard from 2nd to 3rd gear. Initially this hard (at times rough) 2-3 shifting was only in the AM when cold, then a few weeks later when I went on a 900 mile road trip, this rough 2-3 shifting would also occur it was warm and under higher torque conditions (uphill or with passengers). Had me concerned a bit, but I realized that I had not done an adaptation reset via software.

When I returned from my trip, I had an local independent do the adaptation reset via their software package (this is not the same as the ignition to ON, then flooring the pedal, then start sequence). Immediately after the adaptation reset, my shifting is back to normal and smooth again.

Of note, when you change the ATF in these cars, it will change the viscosity and friction modifiers with the new fluid. The car's transmission will need to a software reset to re-learn the new fluid characteristics for smooth shifting again.

1. You did not put 'new' fluid in. You mixed 50% old fluid with 50% febi fluid which is chemically differnt than ZF6.

2. In the document you posted it states:

Note that 83-22 0 142 516 is a SPECIFIC fluid. It is ZF6. Your assertion that any fluid meeting Shell M-1375.4 can be freely intermixed with ZF6 does other owners a disservice.

IMO that comma between M-1375.4 and BMW does not mean OR...

3. I know it is liberating to decide 'you are not going to fall for the man's manipulation of your oil buying decisions'...and 'you will not slavishly adhere to what BMW says for oil'. In fact, I might be much more supportive if you actually CHANGED the fluid to some new fluid.... it is the mixing of fluids and differentiating additive packages and friction modifiers that I find troubling. I do wish BITOG had more info on this.

4. I changed my ATF, using ZF6, and didnt have to reset crap. Havent read a report here where people had to reset the transmission after using ZF6.

5. Do report back, OK?

Did they show you pre-adaptation values, esp.for the troubled pack? It would be interesting to compare to the values after 1-2 weeks when new are established.

E70 X5 ATF fluid experience with Febi 34608?
 

Not to hijack this thread but I too am in need of changing my transmission fluid. The dealer is quoting me $386 to do a drain and fill and $740 for a full service. Do Most of you guys just do the drain and fill or the whole service and does that pricing seem to be in the ball park.


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That is pretty outrageous... why are you using a dealer?

Drain and fill is 30 minutes and 7 Liter at ~$20 a liter. 140 an hour, so 70 labor and 140 materila- $210 total. They are asking 386

Drop the pan and it adds $120 for the pan (ZF OEM) or $220 BMW OE. Add another 30 minutes.

So dealer price 140+220+140=$500 Their asking 740

Id sit down at their desk and ask "what are you actually charging me for with 786? What is each item, what is the MSRP cost, and WTF is the "book time" for this task???"

I just called my local after reading this and they said $190 for labor + parts (not sure how much) but the tech said they will do it if i buy the parts.

Then he said how its a lifetime fluid and blah blah, dont recommend it and the story about the plates seating and so on and possibly getting shifting issues after it...

ARD, that is what I was wondering. I called an Indy shop and they told me $770.00 for a transmission service so I called the dealer just see what they charge. The dealer originally told be $500.00 which I thought wasn't to bad considering it was the dealer and cheaper than Indy shop. Then he called me back and said it was $386 for drain and fill and $740.00 for full service. It seemed really high to me so that's why I asked.

Those who advocate for "it takes only 20 mins to do XYZ", have you ever owned any kind of business? Just curious about the basis of such naive thinking.

Price, who are you talking to. I didn't say anything about 20min, and yes I do own a business.

To those who say "it takes 20 mins to drain and fill, dealer should charge no more"

With all the equipment a dealer has it must be the case. There is a "reason" for the indy shop to charge more because it will definitely take them more time, all else equal ;)

Dealer didn't get equipment for free.

They all go by the book, it could call for 2hr but a good tech does it in an hour... you're getting charged for 2hr no matter what.

I got another quote from a qualified Indy for 175.00 for a drain and fill, and full service for $650.00. This seem more realistic at lease the drain and fill does.

I like to point out the costs, in terms of parts and time. The consumer can then determine how much profit/padding they can tolerate.

There surely is overhead both on a specific job, and on running the business- to think you only pay for the time on the rack is misguided. But likewise, when someone needs a battery registered and the salespuke says "yeah, we need to program the whole car, so that is 1.5 hours at $140 per" it is good to know what the real level of effort is.

Take front brakes. I can do the front axle, pads and rotors in 45-60 minutes. (Im a civilian with a TV in the garage...;) ) Shops will routinely say '2 hours'. I dont advise someone to complain or push back. I *will* tell them how long it really takes and that adding an hour labor and 20-40% on parts is how they make their profits. Learn to wrench or contribute to the economy.

Can anyone help point me to the list of ZF-approved fluids? The zf.com website does not open. I am shopping for fluid and that FEBI fluid is more commonly sold than anything else for our transmissions.

Based on my experience I would stick with ZF fluid so you don't waste time or extra money on resetting adaptations and properly performing the adaptations with using the Febi fluid (pretty long procedure list--you can find on BavAuto blogs on the procedure for driving steps).

Thank you!

I am going to have my indy go through reset procedure anyway - not sure if its the same.

I plan to change the transmission oil/filter on my 2009. I assume it will be the first time with just over 120k now on it. I have software to reset the adaptations myself. Though I don't think I would have bothered doing that had I not read this here.

Even if you put the ZF fluid in, you should reset the adaptations. I don't think there is much in common between 80-100k mile old ZF fluid and a brand new one.

a local independent in Greenville SC wants $800. I think I might take a shot at doing it myself

I will jump into this discussion/debate...I am in the camp of using fluids other than ZF6/Lifegaurd or whatever ZF says you "must" use. Keep in mind that Ford uses the ZF transmissions (manufactured under license, I believe) in their vehicles and recommends Mercon SP fluid. So, good enough for Ford, good enough for me.

I can back this up with experience. I have owned a half dozen or more BMW's over the past 10 years and have been using different fluids other than ZF/Lifegaurd on everyone of them. My X5 is currently due, so thought I would check in a do a search on the topic...hence landed on this post. Anyway, I have needed to rebuild two of the transmissions and neither of them showed any signs of adverse affects caused by the fluid. The first trans broke the A clutch drum lip (common ZF fault on that model not related to fluid). The fiber discs and steels were perfect after 185k miles. The fiber disks did not come apart and the steels did not burn, score, or etc. In fact machining marks were still visible. Rebuilt the trans and used Mercon SP fluid which worked fine until I got rid of the car at 265k miles. The second transmission I only needed to rebuild the valve body to cure a slamming issue when starting off form a standstill (occasionally). I inspected the disks and steel and all looked perfect so left them as is. Trans had 145k miles or about 45k on Mercon SP.

So, don't listen to the people that say only ZF or Lifegaurd fluid...sure it is high quality fluid and probably has a longer service life, but other compatible fluids work just fine. Just cut "Lifetime" in half as their resistance to temperature degradation is probably less than ZF/Lifegaurd.

In the end, make up your own mind after reading all you can and live with it, it's just a transmission...not some device that runs on magical plant juice.

Almost forgot, never have I had to reset adaptations even after rebuild.

The driving adaptations update rapidly enough, I wouldn't expect it to be an issue.

I am now in possession of the required quantity of Pentosin brand fluid and the OE supplier filter. Hoping to get this done this month or next, as in July we are going on a 3k mile road trip.

So are you saying it is fine to mix various fluids, no issues?

and then cut down the service intervals in half? (ZF recommends 60k on the BMW trans, BMW recommneds 100k)

Or that if you completely CHANGE fluids, any fluid is fine- but also cut down service intervals?

How much do you save by using "not ZF" but changing twice as often?

Yes, I am saying it is ok to mix fluids. Been there done that with proven no ill effects. No, I am not saying you have to cut service intervals in half, but I try to change every 60k miles mostly because I am only changing a portion of the fluid, not 100%. I would do the same if using ZF/Lifeguard.

I do think the ZF/Lifeguard fluid is of very high quality and thus more resistant to temperature degradation and thus has a longer service life than other compatible fluids.

Incidentally, I drain the fluid, replace the plug, start engine and let idle for a few seconds and drain again. This ejects some additional fluid from internals by about .75 to 1 quart. And, no, it will not cause damage as there is still plenty of residual fluid lubricating the pump and torque converter.

The main point here is that there are indeed several compatible fluids that will not hurt the transmission or degrade performance. But, everyone should do what they are comfortable doing.