ECU cloning?
 

Hey guys, so I'm a fairly new 2011 X5 35d owner and when I was first looking at the vehicle it had a CEL. The dealer I was purchasing from (Non-BMW) dealer said he'd get it taken care of so he made an appointment to have it checked out at our local BMW dealer.

BMW determined it needed a nox sensor. Sensor was replaced and now when the BMW tech is attempting to run the vehicle through it's tests, the vehicle stalls.

The dealer I bought the vehicle from has been good. He's picking up the tab for the nox sensor but he's pissed with BMW because he feels it's likely the bmw tech working on the car did something and fried the ecu.

BMW SA says the ECU has to come from Germany, takes 10 days to get to Canada and costs several thousand dollars.

I know the dealer I bought the X5 from doesn't have a huge margin and has been very good, even offering to let me drive my trade in with a dealer plate until everything is resolved.

When I was researching E70 X5 35ds I contacted Malone tuning for an alphabet delete and tune, and at the time they recommended a spare ecu in case of any necessary tune updates, etc.

Does anyone know if it's possible to clone an ECU? I'm guessing since it was recommended I had a spare, I'm assuming when they suggested that they didn't mean to spend $3K on a spare.. so.. My question is, has anyone had their ECU cloned, and has everything worked ok after?

Thanks for any help or suggestions

Take your trade back, return the turd.

Dealer is right to be pissed at the BMW dealer. BUT....YOU dont want to be sitting where you are sitting!

(Why you would buy a used car with a CEL on is astonishing- I believe it is illegal here in the USA for a licensed car dealer to do so.)

I predict you spend $3000 and it isn't the ECU!

Unless PUMA is directing the BMW dealer, someone is wasting $$$. (ie You want BMW techs at the mothership directing this repair, not a local BMW tech who is 'guessing it must be the DDE, if it wont run')

Is this a PUMA case???

I'm not sure what PUMA is. I'm guessing it's similar to UCDA or OMVIC in Canada (Dealer watchdog associations).

I bought the vehicle after having my local indy look it over and give me a list of what it needed. Selling dealer obliged and fixed the issues and I got what I feel is a decent deal on the vehicle with the options I wanted, including a fair trade in value for my trade.

CEL was intermittent (dealer let me take the car home for a couple days with dealer plate prior to purchase) while I was test driving the vehicle, we both assumed it was a NOX sensor as these failing is supposed to be fairly common with higher mileage vehicles (105,000 miles). . The CEL came on the morning after driving 45 mins home from the dealer. I immediately took pictures of CEL and the error message (incorrect def fluid, count down to no start) and sent to the dealer who then immediately made an appointment at the BMW dealer on his dime to fix the issues.

From my research on the X5 E70 M57 engine they're pretty reliable except for emissions components, hence my plan for a delete and tune.

Turned out the CEL was for a bad NOX sensor, so said BMW dealer. Selling dealer obliged, and then BMW dealer informs us today it needs an ECU at several thousand $$.

Keep in mind, the deal is done, my trade in lien has been paid, X5 is in my name.

I did buy an extended aftermarket warranty for 3 years, however my understanding is in Canada used cars have a 30 day warranty. (Selling dealer also confirmed this when I was looking at the vehicle and by picking up the tab for the NOX sensor).

Ultimately it's up to the selling dealer to fix the issue and he's been very good about it, even offering to let me drive my trade in with dealer plate until issues with the x5 are resolved.

My question is if anyone has cloned an ECU for E70 X5 35d and been successful, because I'd like to try and save the selling dealer some $$.

I would have been fine with a dead NOX sensor until the alphabet delete however the countdown to no start made that a non-issue.

Thanks for any help or suggestions!

Google PUMA. Don't guess. You chose not to take the time to understand at your own risk.

This will be super easy, right? Used car dealer will pay whatever it takes, turn off the light- car will be perfect. Then you buy your tune, everything works as planned. If the idiot BMW dealer misses something and your tune is installed- and nobody will help.

Best of luck. You clearly don't need any advice.

Actaully, all you need to know is 'has anyone cloned a DDE and been successful?' Can't help there. I'm out

Google search of PUMA brings me to a clothing/shoe manufacturer.


Thanks for your help anyways!

Anyone else have any information or knowledge on cloning an ECU or the least expensive way to replace an ECU rather than to have to go through BMW?

You can very likely clone your ECU to a used ECU. People do it all the time for BMW cars ... so you should be able to do it for the SUV's. You can also send your ECU out for repair as well. A buddy of mine is having his e46's ECU repaired now. There's lots of companies that clone ECU's.

How did you get an extended warranty for a vehicle with a CEL? Did you purchase it through the dealer?

IMO ... this dealer sounds shady, regardless of his willingness to fix the car .... it's still within the 30 day period so he is obligated to by law under your 30 day warranty. He should've never sold the car with a CEL in the first place. Don't let things go too slow on this, as after the 30 days this dealer is no longer obligated to do anything else. Since you purchased the vehicle knowing it had a CEL, regardless of what the dealer said might be the cause for the CEL ... any issues are ultimately on you. It's now your car. I would not rely on being able to use the warranty for the CEL after the 30 days either.

Thanks for your response!

I just got off the phone with 2 chip tuners fairly local to me and the one said cloning the ECU can be hit or miss and he would get back to me, and the other tuning shop said it wouldn't be a problem provided I can bring them the original ECU with the vehicle. They also said they think the BMW dealer may have corrupted something and they are confident they can repair my ECU.

As far as the dealer being shady.. I don't think so. If anything he's pushing to get this fixed asap so he doesn't have to incur any further expenses. (He's out around $4K so far for NOX sensor and diagnostics).

Extended aftermarket warranty was purchased through the selling dealer. No check engine light was present at the time of the sale, only popped up the next morning.

I suspect what happened was the non-BMW mechanic that the dealer uses for brakes, ball joints, etc etc. safety related items simply cleared the code for the NOX sensor fault and when the light reoccurred after I picked the vehicle up the next day the dealer wanted it repaired correctly so then made the appointment with the BMW dealer.

The selling dealer has been good, no complaints here as long as he's willing to pick up the tab until everything is correct with the vehicle which seems to be the case.

Thanks again for your response

Contact www.chiptuning.ca, they are in Ontario too and a great tuner for our bmw diesels.

Thanks for the suggestion!

That was one of the tuners that I spoke with today that said they wouldn't have any issue fixing it.

if the old ECU is corrupted, won't cloning it make the new ECU just as corrupted??

They think they can possibly repair the corrupted memory area I believe.

They also said they had a used ECU if they couldn't repair mine.

I think they clone your id vin etc onto a working ecu. The ecu code can be flashed with winkfp or ista-p. Hopefully the dealer just messed up a flash and your ecu is ok to be reflashed.

In all likelihood there is nothing wrong with his ECU (aka "DDE" in a diesel).

A piss poor BMW tech is guessing.

Just my opinion

Lets see how OP does with a new cloned/repaired ECU. Im predicting he still has issues.

Thanks for your opinion Ard. I'm curious to know what kind of issues you think I will have, especially if they are able to repair my original ECU?

Personally I am not sure you have established the ECU ("DDE" in BMW diesel speak) is the issue. A dealer tech who says "must be the DDE, I guess" is different than a dealer tech who has looped in PUMA technical support, and with them determined after exhaustive testing it is the DDE.

Remember, that $4k of work has a warranty- *IF** you now go outside BMW for 'ecu coding', you can kiss that warranty goodbye. Even a hit from a dealer tech that 'someone messed with he ECU' will result in BMWNA blackballing ANYTHING that could be blamed on the ecu.

When you have heard 4000, 5000 'stories' about how BMW dealers are fallible, and how they can lead thinks astray, you develop a bit of skepticism about so called 'diagnoses'. Rest assured that if you paid to replace the DDE, and there still was a problem, the next story would be "The XYZ failed also and that was what took out the DDE, so we need to fix that too" (Or that the DDE failing also killed the XYZ)

Just saying.

Interesting thread, there does seem to be a lot of reports on here of NOX related codes that turn out to be something completely different.

Pretty sure you can buy a used DDE for 250 on eBay and have someone program it for you for reasonable price.

I too am curious to know what diagnosis led them to think the ecu is bad? do tell where the tale ends!

Ard was correct, larger issues at play here.. I will post back after seeing what the dealer has to say once they receive a formal letter however I've already been in contact with OMVIC and my attorney..

Stay tuned, more to come! LOL

Yeah, sorry to hear.

Remember, PUMA is the 'in house', BMW corporate tech support function. When the dealer is stumped they 'PUMA' it. When a dealer is guessing with your money (or your dealer's money) you want PUMA involved. Might be too late, hope it works out

Best of luck

Thanks Ard.. it turns out it wasn't that the BMW tech was guessing, what it may be is the selling dealer is dishonest and was holding information from me.
Dealing with OMVIC and my attorney currently. I will post back and explain all to those who are curious once I have a resolution.

Cheers

In the hunt for a new x5
 

Hey guys, so I mentioned in a past post I would return and give an update on what was going on with my X5.

It turns out the dealer I bought it from was a crook, he knew the truck had issues when he sold it to me, and Ard was correct in his prediction that something other than the DDE was the issue(s) with the truck.

The truck ended up needing all 6 injectors replaced just to be able to get to the point where the DDE and SCR system could be tested.

Here's my story for anyone who may be interested:

The same day I brought the truck home from the dealer and pulled into my driveway, I got a CEL and the dreaded "Wrong DEF fluid" countdown.

I immediately contacted the dealer who informed me he already had a scheduled appointment set up for me at BMW for inspect/repair.

I dropped the truck off at BMW. BMW diagnosed that it needed a rear NOX sensor and charged the selling dealer around $2K for the NOX sensor and further diagnosis.

The selling dealer called me and said that BMW told him it needed a new DDE direct from Germany and it would be around $4500. I felt bad for the dealer and wanted the truck back as soon as possible, so I started to do some research and found a performance shop that could tune, program and replace the DDE and they said they had a used one in stock for around $700.
I told the dealer this and he seemed happy, and paid to have the truck towed an hour away to the other shop.

I was dealing directly with the other shop, and after they completed their diagnosis, they told me the under hood cowling was cracked and was leaking water onto the injectors and all 6 injectors were corroded and needed to be replaced, and were shorting out the DDE.

Apparently the diagnosis at BMW was similar, however because the dealer made the appointment I didn't immediately have access to the tech's diagnosis and only now found out about it needing injectors.

Now I had 3 estimates.. BMW $16,500.. Performance shop $8500 +/- $2K and the lubrico shop $10,500 +/- $2700 depending if it needed a new CAT because of the misfiring.

When I contacted the dealer, he informed me he changed one injector prior and forwarded me an invoice for one injector, however he did not have any receipt from a tech proving it was actually installed.

The dealer then said "sorry, we've spent too much on this vehicle already, my partners and I decided we can't spend any more".

I then contacted OMVIC (Ontario regulatory body for dealers) and then started the negotiation process.
The dealer then wanted me to use the aftermarket warranty I had purchased which would cover up to $2400 of the repair. I agreed and he then paid to tow the truck back an hour to a shop that dealt with Lubrico warranties.

The warranty shop had a similar diagnosis that all injectors were corroded and needed to be replaced before further testing could occur.

The dealer then decided he was going to buy the vehicle back, and basically offered me around $3300 less than what I paid for the vehicle because I had a trade in worth more that offset the tax, and he had since sold my trade in.

After a lengthy fight and threatening to get a lawyer involved, he finally conceded and will be reimbursing me and picking the truck up from the Lubrico shop next week.

What a ^*#%ing headache!

So now I'm back in the market for a new to me x5 E70 35d and am starting from square one.

I'm about to do a search on "things to lookout for one buying a used 35d", but if anyone has any suggestions or recommendations on what to look for I'd appreciate it.

I did have a BMW Tech look over the truck I bought beforehand however he only did a pre-safety and didn't pull any engine covers off to inspect injectors or anything.

It's too bad things worked out the way they did because the truck did have a couple options I really liked, namely the active comfort climate controlled seats. I've been looking for a while now and these seats in my area seems to be pretty hard to find.

Anyways, that's my story :)

Any input on what to look out for (beside cracked under hood cowling!) on my next x5 would be appreciated!

Cheers

What a Hedacke! what dealership did this?

Mine had the cracked cowl and the injectors had little rust on them when bought at 100k miles but when running a injector test in Rheingold "smooth running control " everything is within spec.

so i don't think cracked cowl or even rust on the injectors indicates damage. what he should have done is run a test for the injectors. prompted by the visual evidence of the cracked cowl.

good thing about injectors is that unlike emissions components, when you get a code for an injector. it's dead certain it's the injector.

Thanks for closing the loop. Sorry to hear too, but very glad you protected/fought for yourself!

1. Repair and maintenance history
2. Mechanic that can connect to the car, pull BMW data to see any codes, pending codes, when last cleared, etc. Dont know if iCarly can.
3. IMO you will be better prepared than 99.9% of buyers, next time around

GL on the hunt

I second everything that ard said plus-

4. Go speak to Jarek in Ontario, Canada at www.chiptuning.ca to remove 95% of the usual issues with these cars. They are great people to deal with, tuned and cloned my DDE(s)

Funny you should mention Jarek because his shop is shop #2 in my "story" and he will most definitely be the person I take the next X5 I'm looking at to for a complete inspection. He definitely knows his $hit and everyone at his shop is very friendly and helpful.