'13 35d - Honeymoon is Over - P045F -Exhaust Gas Recirculation B Control Stuck Closed
 

Okay, new E70 35d owner..
Purchased last month with 55,xxx miles..
Has about 58,xxx miles on it now

About a week ago wife called saying the check engine light was on..
Two days later it was out (hadn't had a chance to go get the code read)..

Yesterday its back on..
Had the code read this morning..

P045F - "Exhaust Gas Recirculation "B" Control Stuck Closed"

Searched forum, but I can't seem to get anything to come up under the code, the description, EGR is 'too common' to search..

So obviously the Car is our of Factory Warranty..
Not sure if this would be covered under the factory extended emissions Warranty?

Any feedback/suggestions? :dunno:

There should be a federal 8y/80k emissions warranty - Why don't you call your local dealer or bring it to them and tell them if its not covered under warranty you'll handle it yourself


No CPO either?

No CPO Warranty, bought from third party dealer. Dealer wants $160 diagnostic fee if no work is done, so would prefer to avoid that if it is not covered, particularly is it is an easy DIY (hoping)..

Are they not able to tell you if emissions components related to the EGR system are covered under emissions warranty?


There are so many components it is almost impossible to troubleshoot the emissions system without dealer software, and even then a lot of times they throw parts at it - it should be easy to explain to a service advisor that you are throwing codes for the EGR system, its not a glow plug for example. Alternatively, find a good independent BMW diesel mechanic/shop. However, P codes tell next to nothing and you really need to run dealer level troubleshooting software (ISTA+P? I believe) as they will have test plans for the codes thrown in order to pinpoint the failing component. The EGR at the front of the engine and the EGR cooler is easy to get to if those components are failing, but again, throwing parts at it is a crap shoot - and emissions components are NOT inexpensive.


Do you live in a free state that doesn't have emissions testing for diesels? I see you're in Maryland so its doubtful. Thankfully we do, once something fails in the emissions system that is not covered under warranty, my wifes will be getting full deletes and amended tune to match.

Maryland has Emissions testing, but Diesels are currently exempt. Not sure if it is possible that may change in the future or not..

I'm Very curious about diesel tunes (at least low level tunes that leave Emissions equipment in place), but I know my wife will not want to drive a Diesel if it emits smoke from the exhaust, or smells..

So I'm hesitant to even entertain the deletion options..

Wondering if this is a Carbon Buildup related item. Seems like a lot of Carbon buildup related issues on these cars..

EDIT: Found this link (https://www.bmwusa.com/explore/bmw-v...nty-books.html), whihc seems to imply that it would be covered under the California Emissions warranty, as this seems to extend to Vehciels in Maryland a a few other states. See what the Service advisor has to say I guess..

Glad to hear Maryland is good with that -



but like you said, its the wifes car - you will get some soot, and some diesel stink, when you do the deletes, its inherent nature of the beast once the DPF/SCR is gone -



The milder Stage 1 tunes are able to unlock some power while keeping intact, but you would want to be sure all those components are newer and good to handle the power, because they will fail at some point.



CBU is very rarely seen in the prevalence on the X5D's like it is on the 335D's, something I learned after research, as I was concerned as well - its because the X5's have an additional low pressure EGR, for some reason it doesnt get built up like the sedans with a HP EGR only. I talked to a couple guys recently and one had very minimal buildup in his intake manifold, head looked good, he was at 140k miles. However, some guys with the sedans if leaving the emissions equipment in place report needing full cleaning and walnut blasting of CBU as much as every 40-50k.


Again, if your wife does not want any soot, smoke, or smell, then leave it in place, and hopefully if any components fail they are covered by some sort of emissions warranty...


The CARB warranty is only for cars registered in CARB states, which I am not sure if Maryland is, again, another question for the SA. Also, some guys on the diesel FB group lately of BMW saying certain emissions components are not covered under warranty, yet BMW "goodwilled" the repair on the house. If you have an item that fails and they tell you its not covered under Federal Emissions warranty, get it in writing -


If you have your owners manual set, it should all be in there on the 2013 warranties applicable to your vehicle. Looks like the CARB warranty is much more helpful, since your state is listed.


https://xoutpost.com/1052272-post3.html


For someone like me, my wife doesn't mind some soot, smoke, or a little diesel smell (there are downpipes with a diesel oxidation catalyst 'DOC' which help cut the smell down a lot with the deletes, not remove completely, but at least 50-70% of it) - and we don't live in a CARB state where the warranty would apply long term, nor do we have diesel emissions testing, so yes, the logical thing to do is if a high dollar component fails, and BMW does not want to warranty the replacement, then at that time we will go full deletes and not deal with it. There are just so many components of the system added on for NA regulations, that can fail. The M57's in Europe for example do not deal with DEF or the SCR system, they just have a DPF and DOC since they were more concerned about CO2 than us here who were more concerned about NOX.

California warranty reads on page 28 of the attached manual -



https://www.bmwusa.com/content/dam/b...1_X3_X5_X6.pdf

Oh, had recently seen this post, and got worried..

https://i.imgur.com/AkJOexkl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/71hfQT7l.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/pBm7y7fl.jpg

You won't know until you pull it off - addition of low pressure EGR is one factor on the X5's thats different -



If the vehicle has driven short trips its whole life then yes you probably would see more CBU regardless - at the end of the day you won't know until you pull it off - the intake manifold can be ultrasonic cleaned but the valves should really be walnut blasted -


I'll have any carbon cleaned up when I do the deletes, swirl flaps deleted etc -


This is straight from the shop that is 20 mins from my house which does a LOT of diesel tuning and is one of the top tuners for the 335/X5/D


"The x5d's do not really have bad issues with CBU and when the intake is off it can just be wiped out, time and costs would depend on how badly it was once we had the intake manifold off."

God this is bad advice...and I see it ALL THE TIME

There is a federal 8/80 warranty on THREE PARTS: DDE, CAT, OBD computer. (As I recall, read your manual)

SO many people blithely claim 'there an emsissions warrant, it's covered'.... Dealers are happy to collect $160 knowing FULL WELL it is not going to be covered.

Follow rickyboobys advice and you will piss away $$$$, They will take $160, then list $thousands of parts to replace and you will be no closer to REALLY knowing your issue.

Having said that, BMW has multiple parts warranties for some parts. Depends on what is wrong with your car.

Oh, don't bother 'wiping out' the 'carbon build up'.... Your issue is almost surely not that.

Well, from what I am reading there is the federal Emissions warranty with very specific coverage of those three parts..

But there is also a California Air Resource Board (CARB) Emissions warranty that covers many more components. My understanding is that it covers cars in California, as well as other states that adopted CARB regulations, Maryland being one of them.

Starting on page 31 of the 2013 Service and Warranty guide is a list of components covered under the 7 year/70K mile CARB Warranty.

'EGR Valve (Low Pressure)' is one of the covered parts, along with the 'exhaust cooler for EGR', and many other high dollar parts like DPF, Turbo, fuel pumps, fuel injectors, etc, etc..

Caveat here may be the wording. If the vehicle fails emissions inspection. Well MD doesn't have an Emissions inspection. But it can be argued that it can't be inspected with a Check Engine light, so it would fail by default..

I dunno, service advisor hasn't gotten back to me (big surprise there)..

I need to finish researching and purchase a solution for reading codes, and diagnosing issues I guess (see post about Bimmergeeks product)..

Which is why I suggested he go to the dealer - diagnosing the complex emissions system and multiple components that fail by saying what "P" code he is throwing is going to get him nowhere

If you buy a BMW out of warranty and especially a BMW diesel you need to be prepared to do two things:

1) Spend a good amount of money at a independent BMW mechanic or alternatively the dealer if you trust them, to keep the emissions system working and intact as there are multiple components that will fail at some point or multiple times

or

2) Deletes

Since OP is sticking with keeping everything intact, he needs to be prepared to pay for proper diagnostics, and component replacement costs - yes some parts will be goodwilled, and yes I'm aware the Federal Emissions warranty is EXTREMELY limited, however, the CARB warranty is helpful to him, if his components qualify - (there is a gray area I read where he needs to need emissions testing in order to qualify for it)


I did post this above as well in a later post on the thread, since you only really read my first response - https://xoutpost.com/1052272-post3.html - which clearly agrees with what you are saying -


Either way, a diagnostic fee is only charged when the work isn't being done by the dealer to reimburse for their time, I recommend he go to the dealer, have them diagnose the problem properly, and fix it (which is likely one of the EGR valve) properly, and be prepared to have random things in the emissions system that need to be fixed properly in his ownership -


I was lucky enough that my wifes 2013 CPO still had factory warranty for about 8 months, and boy did it come in handy, between 42k when we picked it up it needed the following a week later:


-both NOX sensors replaced (those are pricey)
-Power steering pump (that was a WOW) considering the miles, with deflection/idler pulley)
-Transmission sealing sleeve (tech said it was leaking)


2 months later CEL back on and no issues driving, take to dealer and its throwing SCR efficiency code so the following was ordered and replaced under warranty as it took a month to come in-
-SCR Catalyst (another pricey item)


I have the service records from the first owner of her car, both DEF tanks and metering nozzles and sensors were replaced at 35k as well.

Yes.

That is different from the fed warranty.

It is not a 'if it fails we cover'... it is "if these parts fail they are warranted"

IMO you need to figure out how to diagnose your issues and once you prove the parts are bad, THEN go to the dealer.

Your posts indicate you believe there is an 'emissions system warranty' for 8/80. There isnt.

Well, the dealer is doing its usual vague BS, can't tell me anything till they look at it, $140 Diagnostic fee, whether it is covered or not..

Not surprised I guess, was hoping someone would throw me a bone on their experience with emissions related repairs outside of warranty, but they clearly weren't going to do it..

But I don't have a BMW specific scan tool, so I guess I am at their mercy (or an indy) at this point...

$140 diagnostic fee only applies if you choose not to get the work done - I have not paid diagnostic fees at dealers or indy's if I'm getting work done, its included in my final bill - they just have to charge a fee for the people who want the troubleshooting done and then want to DIY the labor -



Bite the bullet and have the dealer fix it, and move on, IMO... Could be something as stupid as a software update needed on the emissions controls, I've heard of weird things like that too...

Scratches head..
Strange, light is out again this weekend.. :dunno:

Drive cycle seems to be more short trips and idle time during the week, where as I put some highway miles on it this weekend, and my foot tends to be a bit heavier than my wifes..

Not sure if that is related, or if putting a tank of the Southern States 'super gold' diesel though it has made a difference..

Judging by the very low mileage I'm gonna say a lot of the issues are stemming from very short drive times and no adequate highway driving. I'd say a good long trip at highway speeds to get the thing plenty hot to start. I worked for BMW for a bit and we had so many issues from people literally driving the car down the block to the store and back, and they never got the car up to temp but maybe 3-5 times in it's entire 2 year lease period.

Spend the dealer diag fee getting a BMW specific scan tool like the foxwell/schwaben, so you can read what the code is. It may not be visible to you, but it will be visible to the tool.



CARB warranty only applies to vehicles that were *originally titled* in a CARB state.

I'd definitely say it gets up to operating temperature on a daily basis, but most of my wife's running around during the week does not involve highway travel. But I would say it takes a solid 30 minute or more Highway trip weekly, sometimes a couple of times a week (usually on the weekends)..

I do need to make that investment, can't decide what to buy though..

Car was originally registered in Maryland, sold at auction, purchased in VA and registered again in MD, so hopefully CARB extended warranty should apply..

The LP EGR valve is vacuum operated. The vacuum lines and pressure converters/VSVs are all known issues on this engine. You may be low on miles, but age and other factors play a role in the rubber vacuum lines deteriorating.

Its probably worth your time to remove the plastic cover, remove the airbox and visually inspect the vacuum lines for any signs of issues.

And it is back out again. Wondering if it is gunked up with CBU, seems like a lot of talk of CBU issues with these engines, and some pretty scary photos..

https://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/at...1&d=1353546541

Good Point, will see if I can do that this weekend..

Also found an interesting method of 'disabling' EGR operation. Of course you still have to live with the check engine light, or have it coded out, but looks like posters are reporting better MPG and smoother running..

That looks to me like an EGR valve produced prior to 2010... later models got a newer version

So the Check engine light had gone out for some time, but came back a week or so ago..

Doesn't appear to be going away this time..

Did my first oil change on the car since purchase..

When I pulled the acoustic cover off the top of the engine, I noticed oil around the EGR valve area, thoughts? :dunno:

Going to guess it may be related to the issue, was hoping someone may have experienced this and know the cause?

Yeah, it could be a major problem. Could be oil spillage during filling or oil dripping from the used oil filter during the filter change.

Any resolution on this? Your photos look like there's seal leak on the air charge tube. This is not too uncommon & is fortunately is about as easy & cheap to fix on your own as it gets. Whether this is the cause of your apparent EGR issues, I can't say...

This air charge line is after the intercooler, & is pressurized under boost conditions. The oil residue is due to the crankcase ventilation system (CCV) putting oil mist & combustion blow-by from the crankcase into your air intake system (Seemingly, a chronic design issue for all BMW engines since the 1990's or so, both diesel & gasoline engines...)...

Pressure side air intake system leaks can cause a host of seemingly unrelated fault code SYMPTOMS & red herrings... The $160 diagnostic fee being asked by the dealership isn't unreasonable, as you can easily spend a whole lot more than that buying various replacement parts & sensors that are not actually faulty, let alone the value for your personal free time / sanity being used to replace all of the non-faulty parts...

Hmmmm, that is an interesting perspective, thank you. If that is the case, scary to see how much oil is being recirculated to the intake :wow:

Assuming this would be the connection at fault if this is the issue?

Hi Mate,

I had a similar issue with a 2008 30d. I however had quite a few codes, MAF sensor fault, Oxygen sensor fault, glowplug faults, DPF issues, and finally EGR control deviation fault.

Ended up replacing the MAF which made no difference, then started looking into the EGR, removed it to visually inspect, was relatively clean (with 320,000kms) and opened freely.

Reinstalled looked to see if it would open through the booth you highlighted above and there was no movement.

Eventually went through all vacuum hoses and traced it back to the pressure converter (also noticed when idling it was making a sort of quacking noise which has since gone since replacing).

Installed a new one and was all good from then on.

My suggestion would be to check all vacuum hoses to ensure no cracks or breaks.

Yes, that would be the seal that is most likely leaking according to these specific photos. It's about $10 or so in cost & very easy to replace.

Keep in mind that this leak may not be the root cause for the codes & seeming EGR issues you've experienced. Also, the air leak could be between the anti-shudder valve & EGR Valve, as well as between the EGR Valve & Intake Manifold; all of these have been reported as potential leak points that have caused codes to be thrown.

Open your oil filler cap with the engine at idle... There is a lot of stuff that gets aerosolized / misted in the crankcase which you'll see wafting up thru the oil filler neck if you take the cap off, as well as hearing a noticeable repetitive "tock" sound from the vacuum generator / pump. Diesels are a pretty violent engine; hence why they're built stronger, & why they're regarded as longer lasting IF well maintained ;)

With post inject DPF regen systems (as is the case with the M57), you'll get higher quantities of unburnt diesel misted into the air in the crankcase, as well as normal & expected combustion blow-by & misted engine oil... The CCV system isn't 100% efficient at filtering all of these things out of the air stream from the crankcase that gets fed back into your engine intake between the MAF Sensor & Large Turbo Air Intake, to be (re)burned in the cylinders... If you have any leak points post turbo charger in your intake system, this oily substance will gradually buildup near the leak point. Diesel fuel does not readily evaporate like gasoline, so it contributes to the oily substance & mess left on surfaces, where environmental dust & other debris will stick to the wet oily substance...

The misted / atomized diesel fuel & engine oil that gets fed back into the air intake system isn't that big of a concern in my opinion by itself, & possibly serves a lubricating function on the EGR Valve & intake valves; however, where this closed loop CCV system becomes a concern & downfall is that burning this misted / aerosolized engine oil in the cylinder causes higher quantities of ash to be sent to the DPF than would otherwise be the case if it were simply unburned diesel fuel & combustion blow-by (hence why DPF equipped Diesel engines spec out low or mid sulfated ash engine oil (low or mid SAPS)...

The primary reported issue w/ a closed loop CCV system in a modern diesel engine is due to the introduction of soot from the EGR system, where the aerosolized engine oil, diesel fuel, & combustion blow-by, is mixed & combined with soot & ash particulates from post combustion exhaust gasses, creating a slurry that is similar in consistency to tar / asphalt... When this engine oil / diesel fuel / soot / ash mixture builds up inside the engine intake system, it's called CBU (Carbon Build Up), which can & will cause issues with the function of the engine in a variety of ways.

So I have the same fault code. I haven't repaired it yet though. I did pull off the electronic valve looking assembly that sits between the manifold and throttle, the one with teh poppet style valve that gets all gunked up (pictured in previous posts). I cleaned it up, but it had surprisingly little spring pressure behind it.

I did eventually find that that poppet valve is supplied via the EGR cooler, and there is a vacuum actuated flapper valve on the inlet to the EGR cooler. The flapper is actuated via a vacuum system, controlled by a vacuum solenoid.

It's hard to know if this fault code lies in the poppet valve at the throttle, with a faulty vacuum solenoid, or if it's just a vacuum leak that's preventing the flapper from metering EGR correctly.

My first step is eventually going to be getting a vacuum tester and checking the lines, as that's the cheapest fix. Both the vacuum solenoid and the poppet valve device are big dollar replacement items.