Exhaust Manifold Torque Data?
 

I'm finally diving in to replacing both CATS in my 2009 X5 3.0i, for better or worse. Anyone have the recommended torque value for the manifold-to-engine head nuts? The nuts are 11 mm (socket size, not diameter).

While I'm at it, the CAT pipe flange to exhaust pipe flange nuts as well?

Thanks!

20Nm for the manifold nuts


Type Thread Tightening specification Torque 1AZ Exhaust system to exhaust manifold N62TU M8 35 ± 2 Nm


2AZ Exhaust system to manifold N52K M10 45 Nm


3AZ Exhaust system to exhaust manifold/ catalytic converter N62TU/ N62 M8 nut 21 Nm


4AZ Clamp, exhaust flap, to tailpipe N62 M6 12 Nm


5AZ Exhaust flap with tailpipe to clamp N62 M6 12 Nm

Thanks for the data. I have the N52. Got the CATs in. They're not OEM but thought I'd roll the dice and see how it turns out. Got a problem though in that the two CAT to exhaust flanges are jambed up right next to each other, no space between them, which is not a problem in and of itself, except that the twin exhaust pipes on the vehicle between there and the muffler have maybe 3/4" between them so I can't fit them onto the new CAT flanges to bolt up. Guess I'll have to find a way to squeeze them together, and I'll also probably wind up piling extra flange gaskets on b/c when I squeeze them together, there is a larger gap between one pair of the mating surfaces than there is between the other pair. Darn it.

It does have a nice rumble to it, without the muffler system attached, LOL. The wife not happy about it, though. Go figure!

Haven't been able to drive it around yet because of that. I'm anxious to see if the CEL goes off. Wonder how long it will take, if it does. Thoughts on clearing the codes (had the P0430) - good idea or bad?

Thanks

Did you replace the cat cause of that code?!?!?!?


If so, SAVE THE OLD CATS.


Often times a cat efficiency code is NOT a bad cat, but rather bat AFRs causing cats to foul


Oh, clearing codes is fine...just jot it down. Do not wait for it to clear, takes WAY too long. ;)

Yes, I did replace them because of the code, but more to the point, the poor performance. I am definitely saving the OEM CATs, fully aware that the problem may be something else. I have new A/F and MAF sensors on order. Had already replaced the O2 sensors since they were fairly easy to get to, but problem persisted. Did 2 consecutive treatments with Cataclean, with no effect -- except to my wallet. Picked up these CATS supposedly from Canada at only $168 for the pair, with free shipping. So, I said I'll just give it a shot and maybe either fix it or learn that I need to look for the problem elsewhere. Boy, what a chore, though!

Well, got the exhaust flanges lined up and bolted together Thursday night, with the help of a large metal hose clamp and a stubby combination wrench. No apparent exhaust leaks, YAY! Unfortunately, the X runs exactly the same way it did before.:( CEL still on. I haven't attempted to clear or rerun the codes. I will rerun them, but not expecting to see anything new.

Hats off to those who had said it wasn't the CAT; but, I didn't spend much money, and at least now I know for pretty much sure that I can look elsewhere. Other possible culprits, as I understand it:

1. After-CAT A/F sensors (ordered, arriving early next week)
2. MAF sensor (ordered, arriving early next week) (Ordered the $25 eBay version, will see how that goes. They're $200 - $300 at the parts stores. Absurd!)
3. Vacuum leak - don't hear any, can't find any. So far haven't even found a vacuum hose to plug my gauge into.
4. VANOS - is this the same as "Engine Variable Valve Timing (VVT) Solenoid"? I find it listed at Advance Auto for $135, and $109 with a code. A filter gasket I guess goes with it, I can get for $22. Is this the big solenoid looking thing that sits on top of the engine, kinda in between some of the coils/spark plugs? Anyone know if it as simple as unbolting and remove & replace? Advance has a video showing one all gunked up with metal bits. Maybe I could clean it out, but at that price, I wouldn't mind replacing if it is a fairly direct process.

Okay, figured out this VANOS thing, thanks to a couple of youtubes. Dual VANOS units, mounted in the front of the engine. I can see them. Kinda ups the ante $$-wise, since there are 2 of them. I'll see what happens with the new sensors first, and if that doesn't fix things, I'll try just cleaning the VANOS's and reinstalling. I really wouldn't feel bad about paying for 2 of them, if I knew it would solve my problem. One thing I don't see or hear mentioned on the youtubes, though, is the "filter gaskets" for the VANOS. Makes me wonder whether or not that is really a thing.

The E39M5 has dual vanos and was legendary for CAT replacements... indeed, BMW put out a service update back in the day to dealers: DO NOT REPLACE CATS FOR CAT CODES.


The issue is that the vanos can cause AFR issues in different parts of the RPM bands- so when you look at idle, its fine...but at 5k it is hosed. The DME keeps compensating, you dont trip long term fuel trim codes, but the cars are getting loaded.


Oh, back in the day, there would be vanos codes...eventually the community learned DONT REPLACE THE VANOS, clean it. BMW would say 'replace it', sometimes under warranty- and after $12k in vanos hardware, including new solenoids, it would fix it. "yep, vanos was bad"


There are TONS of counterfeit MAFs ...they are crap. YMMV. even bosch branded and packaged.


Clean out your vanos solenoids. Take each out, use spray carb cleaner. Flush them hard WHILE ACTUATING THEM. (use 5V I believe, NOT 12! As least on the S62, these are controlled by the DME using regulated voltage. Some use a little 9V battery, which is safe too.) When you get them out, try to actuate them...listen to the sound, you want a nice, crisp snap. I have found they get fouled, oil sludge... then as you are flushing with cleaner the sound changes


Oh, ante wise, buy new orings. Will cost you 2 hours and $20 to clean the solenoids. Im not a betting man, but....


;)

Wow, you sound that convinced. Guess I'll have to go clean a pair of VANOS. Thanks. I'd have done it long ago if I'd realized how simple it would be (I think).

Agree that counterfeit parts are a huge problem. I bought some front suspension parts several years back, supposedly MOOG brand. The metal was die stamped MOOG, but it looked like a very generic font and I was suspicious. I actually contacted MOOG directly. Their person's response? "If it says MOOG on it then it's probably real." Whuhhht? :dunno:

Im paid to sound convinced....


;)


But in all serouslness, on the E39M5 this was an absolute certainty: you did this, You had to.


Also, since those motors run at the edge of AFR control, the maf was hyper critical. bad mafs (ie non-OEM) would hose AFR response


Good luck!

Got home from work just a little early yesterday and with daylight savings time on my side, got the impulse to pull out both VANOS solenoids. It was probably easier than removing a couple of spark plugs. Realized I didn't have any brake or carb cleaner around so very cautiously used my 89 octane cleaning formula (no, kids, don't try that at home!). They actually looked very clean to the naked eye, but nevertheless rinsed, cleaned, and shook on them best I could. Never saw any sludge, metal bits, or other debris, except for all the greasy grit on the outside portions. Took a 6 volt lantern battery and exercised the plungers several times. They both moved, although only a mm or two.

Oiled them up liberally and reinstalled. Cranked up the X and it purred like a kitten. The CEL was not lit for the first time since I don't recall when. Not sure if that's due to me cleaning the VANOS, or if it just coincidentally decided to turn off now, after so many cycles following my replacement of the CATs (I still haven't manually cleared any codes).

Drove it, and it ran beautifully for the first couple of miles. Then, as it warmed up, it increasingly acted "more and more badly", with symptoms hitting their maximum at about 5 or 6 miles, and continuing at about the same level thereafter. This was about the same pattern as before, except that the symptoms I'd say are about 60% improved, and the CEL never came on. Maybe the weather was a factor, IDK.

Thinking to proceed with the A/F sensor replacements, and pull all the spark plugs to see if any are burning differently from the others, or are maybe gunked up with carbon from when the VANOS or CATs were malfunctioning - if they were. Also might consider a way to clean the VANOS more effectively.

A side thought: I also have a very annoying oil leak. It's bad enough that it runs down onto the CATs and makes a very bad smell which really ticks off the wife. I have purchased the valve cover gasket kit and plan to install as soon as I figure out the engine performance issue. Wondering if a break in the valve cover gasket seal could result in a vacuum leak which could cause all this.

OK, updating. The X is still running like crap, particularly after it warms up after 2 or 3 minutes, and especially when you gun it for power after pulling out in traffic, or if going uphill. Sometimes after gunning it, it seems to start missing and running even rougher. I pull over, shut the engine off and restart, and it smooths out some.

So, I've changed out before-CAT O2 sensors, the CATs, the MAF sensor, and removed & cleaned the VANOS solenoids. The CIL has stayed off since cleaning the VANOS, but it still runs bad. I cleared all codes and rechecked. I get a P0305 (Cyl 5 misfire) ("Pending") and a P0420 & P0430 (CAT Bank 1 & CAT Bank 2) (both "Permanent").

The Cyl 5 misfire is weird. I hadn't been getting that until recently, and it doesn't seem to miss at idle, at least not most of the time. Maybe a coil issue. I'll try swapping a couple of coils around to see if the code moves with the coil. (If I remember right, the code doesn't always indicate the correct cylinder, sometimes maybe the one next to it.) Pulled all the plugs, they're not fouled, but all have gaps now of about 0.055 - 0.060. Spec is 0.044, so I got all new ones and will probably install them tonight.

I also have new after-CAT A/F sensors, but haven't installed those yet. Will probably do those this weekend. Was gonna do this past weekend but all my free time went into replacing the valve cover gasket, which was leaking badly. At least that seems fixed.

I've recently learned that these engines have these "DISA" valves in the intake manifold that often cause havoc. I've ordered new ones, along with the Y-configured PCV or whatever kind of vacuum hose it is. Not sure if I'll have to pulll the intake to do any of those, so those will probably be last on my list to try.

Don't know anything else to try, except maybe try doing a better job of cleaning the VANOS. I keep praying though, cause I gotta solve this! Arrrrgh!

One thought- when a car is first started, the DME has it running quite rich.


If, when you start the car it runs great, BUT then as it warms up and the DME dials back the fuel it may indicate it is running lean. (not that the AFRs in the computer will show lean, but 'there's an air leak and the DME doesnt realize it is lean'.)


Are your AFR (aka fuel trims) looking ok?

The saga continues. Replaced all 6 spark plugs last night. Sure fired off briskly, but took it out for a short spin and after a couple of minutes, it ran like the same old crap. Cleared all the codes again and I got P0305 (Cyl 5 misfire) three ways: freeze frame, pending, and permanent. Also got the P0420 & P0430 CAT codes, both of them pending as well as permanent.

I had even swapped the coils on Cyl 1 & 5, but the Cyl 5 misfire code still showed up, with no codes for Cyl 1. I'll try swapping a known good coil with the #4 & #6 coils as well, just in case it's picking up the misfire from a neighboring cylinder and incorrectly reporting it as #5 -- I know it does sometimes happen.

That, and I still have new parts on hand to try swapping out the 2 DISA valves and the PCV(?) vacuum hose. Surely I will get lucky eventually.

I actually haven't hooked up my other reader recently which shows fuel trims. Guess I need to get out all the Blue Tooth adapters, etc., that are involved with it and do that. Right now have just been reading the codes from my cheaper gadget which is simpler and quicker to use but doesn't show all that additional data. Oh, and I have to chase down the app again and reload it on my phone since I'm not sure what happened and it disappeared. Sure it's no big deal but another box to check.

You may be on to something with the DISA valve. When they fail they can let un-metered air in, causing all sort so lean conditions. Search around for 'bad disa' and see if it lines up wiht your symptoms....

Yes I've read several things and watched a few youtubes on it. It makes a lot of sense to me that it could be the culprit, so much so that I just went ahead and ordered the DISAs. I can envision when I really romp on the gas that the valve could be moving or getting sucked around in some sort of an imperfect manner, and then not operating or being intact enough to go back into position until the engine is shut off and restarted. Only thing is most of the stuff I have read/watched talks about the presence of some kind of noise, like a grinding, whistling, rattling, flopping/thump, something, which I'm not hearing. I could see where that wouldn't always be the case, though.

Gonna first try switching out coils 1 & 3 (either side of #5 in firing order) to see if the P0305 moves or goes away, and also install the new A/F sensors. Thanks

OK, officially about to scream! I'd already swapped coils 1 & 5, and the P0305 (cylinder 5 misfire) didn't move. So, swapped coils 1 & 3 about 30 minutes ago, to see if maybe the issue was with either one of those (which are on either side of cylinder 5 in the firing order), but possibly being picked up incorrectly as a cylinder 5 misfire. NOW I'm getting P0301, P0303, AND P0305! :confused::(:mad::banghead:

Clearing all the codes and re-reading doesn't change anything. Reversed the 1 & 3 coils back to where they were before I started this, but I'm still getting P0301, P0303, AND P0305! Crazy!

Wondering if these coils, which are about 8 years old, are so fragile that my handling them once more this evening was just too much?? This is crazy.

I once had a total PITA with TWO bad coils...nothing made sense. However if you are having running issues/misfires due to air leaks or other 'global' problems (ie not cylinder specific) it can manifest as a few misfire codes. I think based on how the DME decides where it is in the firing order it can look like a fixed pattern...

All this has totally messed with my motivation. Was gonna tackle at least one of the DISAs this morning. Now I'm not so sure I should yet. It definitely idles and runs like it has multiple misfires now. I installed these coils in December 2015 following another totally confusing and mystifying episode of multiple codes and misfires. Studying fuel trims didn't seem to clarify much for me at the time, but I did speak with the local BMW service manager then, and he put the bug in my ear to just replace all the coils. I did, and it purred like a kitten. I know, I'm throwing parts at this thing, but I'm gonna go ahead and replace these 8+ year old coils. Seems like it couldn't be a bad thing since the originals only lasted 6 years anyway. I'll go ahead with the new A/F sensors but will wait until I've tried the new coils before tearing into the DISAs.

Installed six brand new Bosch coils last night. It sure smoothed out the idle, with a very steady and smooth exhaust stream coming out the tailpipe. No evidence of a misfire at all now, except that it still gives me the P0301, P0303, and P0305 codes, as well as the P0420 & P0430. Took it down the road and it did fine until it warmed up after a couple of minutes, and then it started "lurching" and chugging whenever you put the pedal down for power or go uphill, same as before. Maybe not as bad though. The CEL had come back on and stayed on after I swapped the 1 & 3 coils a few days ago, but now with the new coils it is off.

Guess I'm back on track now to move forward with changing out the after-CAT sensors, then ripping into the DISAs. I think changing the coils was a good thing to do, given their propensity for failure on these models. Seems like a weird thing that they decided to go south just now in the middle of all this, though. Go figure.

I dont think the coils were totally bad.


I think you have unmetered air coming in- as discussed above, when the motor is running rich during cold start, the 'rich running' and 'lean due to air leak', balance out and it is fine. Once it warms up and the DME tries to run closed loop, it is too lean and you get rough running and misfires.


Something I have seen before- an apparent 'pattern' in misfires, atrributable to specific cylinders, where you would expect a 'global' issue to cause misfires on all cylinders. I believe this may be due to how a DME 'senses' a misfire... the DME only sees crankshaft position..a steady stram of tic tic tic coming in. When it seems a tic tic ....tic (in other words a slight pause or more accurately not the expected acceleration of the crank due to a firing) it says 'misfire. I belive the DME may use a single 'pin' on the crnk to reset with each revolution, so when you see 'its always 1 and 5' it may be in fact due to the algorithm for detecting a misfire. My pet theory.


Good luck man!

I can totally buy that. Still, incredibly weird I was only getting a misfire on 5, until I swapped the 1 & 3 coils and then got "misfires" on 1, 3, and 5. Then, swapped the 1 & 3 back and continued to get misfires on 1, 3, and 5. And even more so when going with all new coils and continuing to get misfires on 1, 3, and 5. I could understand a DISA issue or vacuum leak generating all those codes. But why now, and not before I swapped up the 1 & 3 coils?? Makes no dang sense.

Finally replaced the after-CAT A/F sensors last night. Looks a little cleaner, since the old ones were drenched in oil from the now-repaired valve cover leak. However, it didn't change a darned thing with the way it runs. It's on to the DISAs and maybe the PCV hose now. Lots of new parts have been installed. Maintenance, right?

I do have 3 oh-by-the-ways, a couple of them which I'm thinking may have some remote chance of affecting the way this thing is running:

#1 is my 7+ yr old, battery. Voltage checks good (~12.3 V w/ car off) but we are starting to get more & more notices of "Low Battery". Might get it checked for capacity, or just replace it, at this age. I have known of BMWs doing really weird things with weak and/or aging batteries.

#2 is a modest whistling/whining noise sometimes when I first start the vehicle. Goes away after a minute or so. Almost sounds like a rusty pulley bearing or slipping belt but a video I saw made me realize it's more likely some sort of vacuum or PCV related thing. I get the same sound by removing the oil filler cap while the engine is running. And, we've talked about vacuum leaks, right?

#3 is that I have an annoying slow coolant leak. I'll replace maybe a pint in the reservoir anytime after the wife goes on a day trip around town. Have not seen any clear signs of where the coolant is going. I did however see a video pointing out that a seal or gasket under the oil filter housing is commonly the culprit. Not sure if there is anything vacuum related with that seal. I can see a good bit of crud caked up under the filter housing, possibly from a chronic slow coolant leak.

#1- almost surely no relation to the issues. 7 years in heat is about it. Might get thru summer, then when temps drop it will die. But if you are getting battery low warnings, likely sooner


#2. Yes. sucking air in can be the issue. HOWEVER, does your car have a secondary air pump? Sounds like a rusty hair drier on cold starts.


3# - Doubtful. Still annoying tho. Assume your oil looks fine, no brown crud/foam?!?

Did replace the battery this past weekend. It was 7 years & a month in the vehicle, about 8 years old from the manufacture date. Had the store bench check it anyway, and it was good but at about 60% capacity. It was time for a new one, no matter, but it hasn't fixed the way the car is running. Chasing vacuum leaks and DISAs, etc., will have to wait for a couple of weeks b/c I'm getting ready to leave on a cruise out of Port Canaveral, down to San Juan, PR. Pina Colada, here I come!

Cheers, mate.



Ive got a few weeks in Hawaii coming up....


:thumbup:


:plane:



:dancing: