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-   -   Possible to install OEM running board E70 (https://xoutpost.com/bmw-sav-forums/x5-e70-forum/57782-possible-install-oem-running-board-e70.html)

us_matrix 02-10-2009 05:29 PM

Possible to install OEM running board E70
 
Hi,

I was wondering if the E70 I am getting (used) does not equipped with running board. Can I get the OEM one and install it. Is it possible to do it by myself (My friend is a mechanic). I found many OEM on ebay selling for $500+. Does anyone know any other place for better price? BTW, I found the install guide at the front page but just want to make sure if it can be done?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/BMW-X...Q5fAccessories

Thanks in advance!
Mugen

LeMansX5 02-10-2009 08:20 PM

I see no reason why not.

King 02-10-2009 08:25 PM

You may also have to change the wheel arches if you decide to install running boards since they all tie in together. At least that's the way it was with the E53. Might wanna look into it...

us_matrix 02-10-2009 08:26 PM

Thanks for your reply!
Because I remember there was a thread back in a while ago saying that very difficult to install OEM running board and cost a lot to do that. Do you know if the ebay link above is the only thing i need to get it installed or something else?

ZORISLAV 02-11-2009 03:52 AM

is it possible to install aluminium running boards on x5 with m sport package, dealers can not check.

Ziggypup 02-11-2009 11:51 AM

Circle Bmw is selling them for $452.00 + shipping. I've ordered from them in the past and have been pleased.

kimg9582 02-11-2009 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by King
You may also have to change the wheel arches if you decide to install running boards since they all tie in together. At least that's the way it was with the E53. Might wanna look into it...

This is NOT the case with E70. My X5 3.0 has a running board installed with standard wheel arches. BTW, there is step-by-step instructions in this forum for installation.

gokudo_90 02-11-2009 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZORISLAV
is it possible to install aluminium running boards on x5 with m sport package, dealers can not check.

i dont know who has it, but i saw one in my countrys airport, thought i didnt like how it looked

ViperNY 02-13-2009 09:23 AM

I want to remove mine
 
Funny, my wife wants me to take mine off. Just got my new X5 two weeks ago and the new running boards are causing my wife great pain. The step is not too high and not too low and really is a strange height and is difficult to use. My wife gets her pants dirty everytime she gets in or out of the truck.

Went to the dealer yesterday and he wants $1,200 to remove the running boards and put some kind of trim piece in its place.

mikey777 02-13-2009 08:09 PM

http://www.xoutpost.com/pdf/e70/e70_r...rd_install.pdf

TaMbALoLoNg 06-04-2009 01:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by King (Post 575596)
You may also have to change the wheel arches if you decide to install running boards since they all tie in together. At least that's the way it was with the E53. Might wanna look into it...

Not true....:tapping:

Zoich 06-04-2009 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ViperNY (Post 576774)
Funny, my wife wants me to take mine off. Just got my new X5 two weeks ago and the new running boards are causing my wife great pain. The step is not too high and not too low and really is a strange height and is difficult to use. My wife gets her pants dirty everytime she gets in or out of the truck.

Went to the dealer yesterday and he wants $1,200 to remove the running boards and put some kind of trim piece in its place.

Yeah I am on the fence. When I ordered mine, my sales guy talked me out of it. Saying I would get my dress pants dirty. Also if you get snow on it, when it freezes over, you can't open your door. Plus people have stated the aluminum part leaves unsightly water stains. It's funny, I don't have it on mine, so I want it. But I am afraid once I have it, I will end up hating it...

TaMbALoLoNg 06-04-2009 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kimg9582 (Post 575883)
This is NOT the case with E70. My X5 3.0 has a running board installed with standard wheel arches. BTW, there is step-by-step instructions in this forum for installation.

Where?? btw got my RB for $360:thumbup:

cedhead 06-08-2009 09:00 PM

X5 running board installation
 
Hi, I am new to this board. I just picked up my X5 (E70) yesterday.

Can you please send me the link for the installation instructions of the OEM running boards for the E70? The link in the above thread does not work and only redirects to the home page of www.xoutpost.com.

Thanks in advance.

TaMbALoLoNg 06-09-2009 02:10 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by cedhead (Post 628864)
Hi, I am new to this board. I just picked up my X5 (E70) yesterday.

Can you please send me the link for the installation instructions of the OEM running boards for the E70? The link in the above thread does not work and only redirects to the home page of www.xoutpost.com.

Thanks in advance.

Attached is the installation guide.. I just did mine last weekend and it is easy. DO NOT let dealer install this for you as they will charge you 4 hrs of labor minimum (around $740). Let me know if you encounter any problems and I will try to help you out. In the meantime goog luck:thumbup:

cedhead 06-09-2009 02:48 PM

INSTALLATION PDF
 
Thanks very much for the prompt reply and installation guide. The box with the OEM running boards did not come with the window adhesive - what a pain! The process seems really straight forward.

Two questions:

1/ Does the parts list (clips, etc) provide for the clips that may break when you loosen the wheel trim?

2/ Did you run into any problems/challenges?

Thanks!

TaMbALoLoNg 06-09-2009 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cedhead (Post 629163)
Thanks very much for the prompt reply and installation guide. The box with the OEM running boards did not come with the window adhesive - what a pain! The process seems really straight forward.

Two questions:

1/ Does the parts list (clips, etc) provide for the clips that may break when you loosen the wheel trim?

2/ Did you run into any problems/challenges?

Thanks!

1. No, just undo 2 riverts on each corner and buy (8) new rivets at any autoparts store. They are 1/4" to replace the old and ones.

2. Nope, just dirty fingers :rofl:

Let me know if you run into any probs and i'll help you out:thumbup:

cedhead 06-09-2009 04:20 PM

Great - thanks - I will installing them on the weekend.

Thanks again!

cedhead 06-14-2009 10:42 PM

Thanks! I just completed the installation of the running boards on my 2009 E70 X5 - what a joke. I can't believe that BMW would charge $1,200 here in Canada for something that took me 1 hour with two guys - in my driveway! The only challenge is that the front clips are a little tight to release from under the fender(s).

Be aware as the OEM front mudguards do not work with the running boards. Surprised BMW does not include the 4 clips/plugs for the back wheel wells?

Thanks very much for the PDF instructions which made it really easy!

TaMbALoLoNg 06-14-2009 11:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cedhead (Post 631195)
Thanks! I just completed the installation of the running boards on my 2009 E70 X5 - what a joke. I can't believe that BMW would charge $1,200 here in Canada for something that took me 1 hour with two guys - in my driveway! The only challenge is that the front clips are a little tight to release from under the fender(s).
Thanks very much for the PDF instructions which made it really easy!

Hey... You owe me some pics:D.

cedhead 06-14-2009 11:20 PM

Will do - thanks again!

KYZRSOSE 06-14-2009 11:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cedhead (Post 631195)
Thanks! I just completed the installation of the running boards on my 2009 E70 X5 - what a joke. I can't believe that BMW would charge $1,200 here in Canada for something that took me 1 hour with two guys - in my driveway! The only challenge is that the front clips are a little tight to release from under the fender(s)

So a question...Lets just say, there is this guy....handy, but not that handy...can use a hammer, not a rotary saw....can replace headlights bulbs , etc.., hasn't used a rivet gun thingy-ma-jiggy.....Can that 'guy' do it, you think?

Anyone care to post pics of an install....I read the instructions, but would like to see where, what, why, etc...

cedhead 06-15-2009 10:13 AM

Not sure if you are mocking me? but it is really easy. The most difficult part is removing the original rocker panel trim, particularly from under the front fenders because the clips are very tight.

If you can secure 24 bolts to existing holes, push in plastic plugs, and press firmly to (re)attach (new) clips, then you can do this!

Send me a PM if you would like more info. I did not take pictures along the way - sorry.

KYZRSOSE 06-15-2009 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cedhead (Post 631334)
Not sure if you are mocking me?

No No....was mocking my pseudo talent....

Thanks for the heads up....I may give a go at this thing....

shashankmittal 07-17-2009 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KYZRSOSE (Post 631215)
So a question...Lets just say, there is this guy....handy, but not that handy...can use a hammer, not a rotary saw....can replace headlights bulbs , etc.., hasn't used a rivet gun thingy-ma-jiggy.....Can that 'guy' do it, you think?

I am like you, handy with tools but haven't done anything before with any car. I just read the instructions and was successfully able to install the running boards in under 4hrs. That included a trip to a nearby auto parts store for the water proof sealant that you would need during installation. I can't believe BMW dealerships charge almost 5-6hrs of labor for installing the running boards!

I am now much more comfortable working with the car and I am planning to do some more mods on my own.

KYZRSOSE 07-17-2009 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shashankmittal (Post 641798)
I am like you, handy with tools but haven't done anything before with any car. I just read the instructions and was successfully able to install the running boards in under 4hrs. That included a trip to a nearby auto parts store for the water proof sealant that you would need during installation. I can't believe BMW dealerships charge almost 5-6hrs of labor for installing the running boards!

I am now much more comfortable working with the car and I am planning to do some more mods on my own.

What kind of tools did you use? My house is tool-less except for a few screw drivers (the drink too) and a hammer.

shashankmittal 07-17-2009 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KYZRSOSE (Post 641833)
What kind of tools did you use? My house is tool-less except for a few screw drivers (the drink too) and a hammer.

I would strongly suggest a nice toolkit that has a screw driver set and a ratchet set. Apart from this, a rivet gun so that you can replace the old rivets from your wheel arches with the new ones (2 for each rear wheel). You would need to buy these rivets as well.

KYZRSOSE 07-17-2009 02:48 PM

I think I will attempt this installation :dunno: (don't want to pay stealer 2.5 hours of labor.) However, if you're ever behind me on the road, stay away. The running boards might fly off. :wow:

I looked at the rivets. Will they definitely break when I put them out? I got one loose, and it seems that I could re-use them.

shashankmittal 07-17-2009 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KYZRSOSE (Post 641863)
I looked at the rivets. Will they definitely break when I put them out? I got one loose, and it seems that I could re-use them.

The rivets in the wheel arch extension might damage while taking out, so you would need spare ones to replace the old ones. The running board rivets come with the running board, so you don't need to buy them separately.

KYZRSOSE 07-17-2009 04:15 PM

:rofl::rofl: Anybody want to supervise me? :rofl::rofl:

TaMbALoLoNg 07-18-2009 12:19 PM

The plastic rivets are a one time use only. Once you pull those out you cant reuse them as the rivet setter already cut off the pin at the desired length. You dont need the oem plastic rivet, you can use any plastic rivet(screw in type) from any auto parts shop. I think they are 3/4 or 1/4.:thumbup:

JA330xi 07-20-2009 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ViperNY (Post 576774)
Funny, my wife wants me to take mine off. Just got my new X5 two weeks ago and the new running boards are causing my wife great pain. The step is not too high and not too low and really is a strange height and is difficult to use. My wife gets her pants dirty everytime she gets in or out of the truck.

Went to the dealer yesterday and he wants $1,200 to remove the running boards and put some kind of trim piece in its place.


We have an 08 3.0 without running boards. My wife gets her pants dirty (in the winter) every time. (She is 5' 9") As a matter of fact, so do I and I am just under 5' 11". I guess there is no perfect solution!

KYZRSOSE 07-20-2009 09:48 PM

So I was at the stealership today. Talked to them regarding the running boards. They wanted originally 6 hours for install (according to BMW...hahaha.) Told them I have the sheets for install at 2 hours. They came down to 2.5 hours and at a reduced labor rate.

So I also got them to do the Aero kit, re-finish the wheels in Ferric Grey, and put new shoes on her. Its my part 1 of the mod-plan. Part 2, find a body shop/indy shop for painting of various grills, emblems, taillight pipes, body molding, etc..., then delete the rails... Part 3, lower the front and back.... Part 4, exhaust.... Part 5 - rob a bank....wait, this should be first..

ring007 10-31-2009 10:29 PM

Installed the running boards on my E70 4.8i today. I bought them from my local dealer for $365 with the BMWCCA parts discount. I wasn't sure how long it was going to take me when reading the BMW instructions, but all in it took 4 hours with the help of my 4yr old son (prob would have taken 3 hours without him) ;)

Anyway they look good and I saved 4 hours of labor or about $450 bucks and it was pretty easy.
:thumbup:

Quote:

Originally Posted by us_matrix (Post 575522)
Hi,

I was wondering if the E70 I am getting (used) does not equipped with running board. Can I get the OEM one and install it. Is it possible to do it by myself (My friend is a mechanic). I found many OEM on ebay selling for $500+. Does anyone know any other place for better price? BTW, I found the install guide at the front page but just want to make sure if it can be done?

BMW X5 RUNNING BOARDS 3.0L, 4.8L 2007 2008 2009 E70:eBay Motors (item 270331734125 end time Nov-13-09 07:44:05 PST)

Thanks in advance!
Mugen


cinnamonstick 08-20-2010 01:14 PM

Just bought some at Tischer BMW--- $390 pick up....

Wish me luck (well, the husband)....:)

Tim W. 12-22-2010 05:35 PM

Thanks for the instructions! I am going to do mine in the next few days

Tim W. 12-23-2010 06:24 PM

Thanks for the instructions. Took less than an Hour...........

blue dragon 12-23-2010 11:07 PM

I picked some up from Pacific bmw for $332. I'll be installing them over the Christmas break. Also got the fender flare retrofit kit for $265
I aim'd Jason at Tischer (getbmwparts.com) and he couldn't match Pacific's prices. I also picked up the roof rack crossbars for $188.

js_avery 03-10-2011 05:45 PM

Did you guys use the recommended "windshield adhesive". The kit did not come with any is it needed?

blue dragon 03-10-2011 07:51 PM

^^ Yes, I bought windshield adhesive from napa auto parts.

ring007 03-10-2011 09:51 PM

I just used silicone caulking.
Quote:

Originally Posted by js_avery (Post 810840)
Did you guys use the recommended "windshield adhesive". The kit did not come with any is it needed?


js_avery 03-11-2011 11:21 AM

It looks like there is somekind of blue sealer already on the bolts that came with the kit. Just a thin bead by the head of the bolt.

nicks3 03-21-2011 06:27 AM

Has anyone fitted these to an X5 with the Msport kit?

blue dragon 03-21-2011 10:30 AM

It does not fit the Msport. Here is what my 35D looks like with the extended wheel arches and running boards installed. I just put my summer wheels back on.
http://www.wardphotography.com/temp/truck.jpg

nicks3 03-21-2011 10:32 AM

I thought they did fit. There is a picture of an Msport with the runnning boards fitted......

cashsosa 03-29-2011 03:12 PM

Msport Fabrication For Running boards...
 
So I just picked up my X5 5.0 Msport that I had custom ordered with all the goodies yesterday night. As expected, it just looks a bit bare without the running boards. I spent all night trying to see if someone did it but only one poor picture exists which was the black one and you can't see where the running board meets... Ultimately, looking at the front end it doesn't look like it's really an Msport but rather they painted the body moldings. So i purchased the running boards this am and had them put on... Sure enough, it looks retarded... Doesn't match up at all due to the flared fenders.

However, we have found a solution. We're going to cut off the ends from the stock running board and fuse them together with the aluminum running board so that the ends match up perfectly with the fender flares. Once they are fused, you sand down the plastic, apply primer and then paint the entire running board (minus the aluminum) for a custom look and fit. It won't be ready until Friday but bet i'll be posting.. Here's the two pictures of them on the vehicle so that people can see for themselves that they do not in fact fit without severe modifications...

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g1...a/X5/photo.jpg

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g1.../X5/photo2.jpg

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g1.../X5/photo1.jpg

nicks3 03-29-2011 04:09 PM

Thanks so much for posting this cashcosha, I'm sure you have helped many x5 msport owners like myself thinking of fitting these running boards. Would it be possible to take pictures if how you mod the running boards to fit?

cashsosa 03-29-2011 04:15 PM

Oh for sure... This was sent to me from my guy at the shop. It's across town so unfortunately i can't be there to document the whole process but i will for sure take detailed pictures when i get it back on Friday. Aside from the running boards, below are the mods being done:

Smoked front parking lights (The Amber Ones On The Bumper)
Smoked Parking lights on the rear bumper.
Smoked tailights (minus the white stripe).
Clear bra
Limo Tint
22" wheels
Carbon fiber BMW emblems
carbon fiber center caps.
Slats on kidney grill painted to match black metallic
Hard wire Valentine 1 radar.

Once it's all done i'll shoot some pics for you guys.... I'm excited.. Really excited to see how this running board will turn out though...

nicks3 03-29-2011 05:39 PM

That's great, thanks. How is he fitting carbon fibre trunk emblem as I can't locate one if those anywhere?

cashsosa 03-29-2011 05:43 PM

Tons on Ebay... Here's just one example... You can find cheaper if you keep looking...

7PCS BMW Black Carbon Fiber Emblems Z3 Z8 X3 X5 X6 - eBay (item 110662226641 end time Apr-15-11 01:56:45 PDT)

nicks3 03-30-2011 04:35 AM

I have those but they don't fit the rear of the x5 as it has a chrome holder which the badge sits in. You would have the break the BMW logo out of the holder and somehow mount the carbon one.

cashsosa 03-30-2011 06:56 AM

Huh, sounds like that emblem install is going to be a pain. I'm sure the guys at the shop can figure it out but it won't be an easy one. I'll post everything once complete. Should have everything done minus the emblems on Friday. The emblems were delayed on shipping so I'm not sure when I'll get them.

Hosse 05-21-2011 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cashsosa (Post 815102)
So I just picked up my X5 5.0 Msport that I had custom ordered with all the goodies yesterday night. As expected, it just looks a bit bare without the running boards. I spent all night trying to see if someone did it but only one poor picture exists which was the black one and you can't see where the running board meets... Ultimately, looking at the front end it doesn't look like it's really an Msport but rather they painted the body moldings. So i purchased the running boards this am and had them put on... Sure enough, it looks retarded... Doesn't match up at all due to the flared fenders.

However, we have found a solution. We're going to cut off the ends from the stock running board and fuse them together with the aluminum running board so that the ends match up perfectly with the fender flares. Once they are fused, you sand down the plastic, apply primer and then paint the entire running board (minus the aluminum) for a custom look and fit. It won't be ready until Friday but bet i'll be posting.. Here's the two pictures of them on the vehicle so that people can see for themselves that they do not in fact fit without severe modifications...

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g1...a/X5/photo.jpg

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g1.../X5/photo2.jpg

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g1.../X5/photo1.jpg

Is it possible to get these pictures uploaded again? Im sitting here with new runningboards and just bought the rear and front bumper on Ebay for my E70..

cashsosa 05-21-2011 02:58 PM

Emblems And Pictures
 
Hey Guys... Couple things.. I've slacked on the pictures because I need to order wheel spacers to bring the wheels out a bit more to the extended flares. But other than that the car is all done and looks fantastic.. I'll try to grab some pictures tomorrow night or tonight when the light is a bit better.

As for the emblems, just be careful. I replaced them all with carbon fiber ones but the emblem on the hood already has discolored and turned yellow. THe one on the rear doesn't receive the same type of intense sunlight and has maintained. So just beware. The center cap emblems unfortunately don't fit the aftermarket wheels i put on the car.

More to come...

Hosse 06-04-2011 03:58 PM

Ok, now the sidesteps are in place and 2 sets of Msport bumpers are in place. One for my car and one for my friend. I will not rest until a got it on ny car with sidesteps:-)

So, any pictures or tricks?

cashsosa 06-07-2011 06:39 PM

Quick Tease Of MSport With Aluminum Running Boards
 
Hey Everyone, i'm really sorry for the delay but i was waiting on the wheel spacers and a couple other things before i took the final professional pictures. However, I've received a few emails about it so here's a quick picture from just my iPhone so you can see that it did in fact get done and looks perfect. In the forthcoming weeks i'll finish it up and get some professional shots done.. In the meantime, enjoy...

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g164/cashsosa/X5.jpg

Hosse 06-08-2011 05:13 AM

This looks amazing!! Really nice done! Do you have any pictures before the paintjob?

My bumpers will arrive on Friday:-)

cashsosa 06-08-2011 12:38 PM

Sorry... I didn't' take any pictures during the interim. I popped in and out of the shop but i was super busy with work that week so i didn't really document the process unfortunately...

shaunmed 09-01-2011 10:36 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Before and after shots. different time of day and car a bit dirtier in the "after" shot. all in all, i'm very happy with it. much more aggressive look and breaks up the monotony of the middle of the car.

got running boards from Pacific BMW for $315. install took 3 hrs for 1st side and less than an hour for the other side. Directions help but are very vague and the fit is tight when putting on new boards.

cashsosa 09-02-2011 11:11 AM

Looks Great
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by shaunmed (Post 841713)
Before and after shots. different time of day and car a bit dirtier in the "after" shot. all in all, i'm very happy with it. much more aggressive look and breaks up the monotony of the middle of the car.

got running boards from Pacific BMW for $315. install took 3 hrs for 1st side and less than an hour for the other side. Directions help but are very vague and the fit is tight when putting on new boards.

Looks great "ShaunMed". Your's is much easier of an install since you simply have the "sport package". With your the fender flares are made of plastic which matches the plastic on the aluminum running board. Much easier. Mine had to be sanded down and painted as well to match the "M-Sport" which has painted fender flares etc... Much bigger PITA!

But looks great man!

cuffeed 04-02-2012 07:51 AM

I finally installed my OEM running boards yesterday. The directions SUCK! It took me 4 hours to install both running boards. As mentioned previously in the post, the fit is very tight. What helped me the most was using a trim panel tool to release the rivets. I got it from Pep Boys for $9.99. It was a huge time saver!

Hammer 05-21-2012 09:40 AM

I agree with you all about the directions (PDF).

Is it easy to separate the aluminium part of the running board from the plastic? I need to do some panel beating on one side of mine due to a slight mishap with a parking pole. Just slight scratching and minor dents which I'd like to panel beat back to shape and polish.

Any advise and/or directions on how to separate the aluminium board (while already fitted) would be helpful.

Dr_Smith 05-21-2012 05:09 PM

Hammer it can't be done easily. The whole assembly has to come off to get the aluminum out as it's held in by 5 screws and 2 wedges.

Sorry

Hammer 05-22-2012 04:35 AM

Thanks for letting me know.

Sylvan Lake V35 03-29-2013 08:20 PM

Bring this back from the dead....FYI the OEM side skirts DO NOT fit on OEM running board equipt trucks. The OEM running board trucks have a frame/support under them that is too wide for the side skirts to fit over. I took the support right off but then the side skirts were super flimsy, we have kids and we figured they would step on them at some point and tear them off. So we are stuck with dirty pant legs AKA running boards :(

milehigh2socal 03-29-2013 10:24 PM

To reinforce Sylvan's post..

I ran into the exact same issue this last weekend. I too was tired of stepping over the aluminum running boards... and wanted the aero body kit anyway.

Upon removal of the running boards... the body kit side sills will not fit over the supports. Lucky for me... the dealership is only too happy to sell the side sill supports (Part Numbers 51777207195 and 51777207196) With CCA membership $88.00 X 2.

I "think" these are the same parts that they probably toss every time they jab someone to install the running boards.

In the end... it was all worth it... I love the aero kit.

I hope this helps.

Sylvan Lake V35 03-29-2013 11:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by milehigh2socal (Post 929967)
To reinforce Sylvan's post..

I ran into the exact same issue this last weekend. I too was tired of stepping over the aluminum running boards... and wanted the aero body kit anyway.

Upon removal of the running boards... the body kit side sills will not fit over the supports. Lucky for me... the dealership is only too happy to sell the side sill supports (Part Numbers 51777207195 and 51777207196) With CCA membership $88.00 X 2.

I "think" these are the same parts that they probably toss every time they jab someone to install the running boards.

In the end... it was all worth it... I love the aero kit.

I hope this helps.

I might look into those, I hate the running boards. You would think they have those supports sitting around unless they toss them out.


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