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Engine temperature
I know I should read the mannual but I don't have it handy right now.
On my E46 M3 I usually let engine and oil get to operating temperature before getting on the throttle. I don't see any temperature gauges on the dash or iDrive. Am I missing something? |
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Wow! That is truly bizarre. Certain BMW owners (more so than Mercedes etc) are enthusiast and driving purists. The decision to omit such a critical gauge has left me quite literally lost for words.
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But they give you a real pretty MPG economy gauge instead!!! |
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Maybe BMW thought enthusiasts and driving purists wouldn't be too interested in an SUV. Their main target may have been stylish soccer-moms, hence the economy gauge.
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Judging from the way I have seen them drive SUVs, I can't imagine soccer-moms being any more interested in fuel economy than in engine temperature. :D |
There's lots of talk about the removal of temp and oil pressure gauges throughout the auto industry.
When was the last time you saw a modern car overheat or a vehicle loose oil pressure? (exclude Fords and GM products) The human factor and the decluttering of automobiles is being taken into consideration and instrument panels are being simplified across the board. The exact same thing is taking place within the aviation industry , and gauges that have been standard for 60-years are now being removed or replaced with digital gauges that must be searched for through menus or are no longer present, at all. IDrive was an attempt at simplifying the driving experience. Obviously it was a failure, and it took many years to get it right. But in it's current state, it's very "close" to where it should be. We'll slowly start to see the removal of such gauges from all automobiles, as other indicators and instruments are added. Though, their removal does not at all signify the designers wish for the cars to loose their sporting appeal. Rather, quite the contrary. It's one less thing the driver must focus on, and it can be argued that drivers can actually drive quicker and safer as a result. Sure it's nice to see a temp. gauge, for nostalgia,but a warning light will perform the same function, if required. Trust me, the gauges were not removed at a whim. BMW, along with every other company that builds machines which interface with humans, hires psychologists who work together with engineers to create a safe and modern interface. I'm sure there is an exact reason as to why the temp. gauge was removed, and my bet is the answer rests somewhere along the lines of what I've written above. |
"ABMW", that was an insightful read and I'm sure you're correct.
While an idiot warning light serves the purpose for the majority, the lack of the temp gauge leaves me very wary about getting on the throttle too soon. The appeal of the BMW over most other manufacturers is its sporting appeal, handling etc. I just would have thought the gauge would be at the very least in the iDrive system at the very least. |
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That's not why people want a temperature gauge. People want to know when the vehicle is at operating temperature. As for uncluttering things, that's not an issue either. BMW could easily add it to the idrive under the vehicle information section where the TPM monitor, engine oil level, etc. is. Coolant temperature data is readily available on the OBD-II buss. |
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You're assuming modern engines require a period of warming before they're ready to be driven off. There are many out there that disagree with you. Google "do car engines need to be warmed." I won't get into the debate, but it's obvious by googling that the debate was settled some time ago. |
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-other than a water pump failure, I agree cars seldom lose oil pressure or overheat, regardless of brand. Some/many X owners here however, have suffered the oil separator/CV problem, though gauges would not necessarily have helped indicate that imminent fault. -"decluttering"?! :rofl: I guess NAV & NAV-TV, Ipod, laptops in the front seat, I-Drive, et al, are helpful in "decluttering" that pesky informative instrument panel. -airplanes ain't cars...the several private plans I've been in are flown by very careful, attentive, serious pilots; I know few drivers like that. -I guess without those extra gauges, eg oil pressure, temp, et al, I can "focus" better on my NAV or TV or cell phone/texting, or... -I agree BMW did not remove the gauges on a whim; it was to save money and not clutter up Biff&Buffy's driving experience. I seriously doubt any psychologists were consulted. Not really an issue with me, in terms of disappearing gauges, but it does seem odd and, cheap, imo. I really like the DIC on my '02 Vette: I can scroll through all data, by touch, and see every "reading" one would care to view, in addition to the best HUD in the industry. My 50Cts. GL,mD |
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As a Mechanical Engineer who has worked as a Product Planner at a major auto company in the past, has worked at a manufacturer of large jet engines, and also worked with motorcycles and cars for 40 years, I appreciate your googling skills. But as much googling as you might do, you will not convince me one should use their engine at WOT immediately after starting when it is zero degrees outside. Engines do require a warm-up period before being operated at high-RPM and/or high load. A temperature gauge shows you when the engine is at normal operating temperature. Note that warm-up, does NOT mean idling at a standstill. P.S. A working temperature gauge also provides an indication of thermostat failure, a quite common problem. Without the temperature gauge, such a problem will go undiagnosed until the thermostat failure becomes dramatic. P.P.S. If you park your diesel outside overnight, start it in the morning when the temperature is 5 degrees, drive it a mile to the Interstate, and then start driving on the interstate, do you know how long it takes for the engine to warm-up? I do, as I have been logging coolant temperature vs. time data via the OBD-II port over the past few thousand miles. Care to take a guess? |
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It annoys me greatly...
The X6 has the temp display, BTW. I'd like to replace mine. In the manual on page 241 they provide instructions on bringing the engine to "operating temp"... "an uninterrupted drive of 6miles/10km" In the E39M5, if the thermostat fails, the engine runs cool. No idiot lights, but the car is stuck in open loop mode due to the low temp, and will run very rich... emissions are up and power is down. The owner that notes his engine temp has been running cool can then think "say, maybe I need a new thermostat"... without temp gauges, you will not know. There are real and valid reasons for this information. Although I will admit not within the first 30 month lease BMW seems to be targeting as their prime demographic. A |
My dealer told me as soon as the rpm goes down i can drive but need to wait 3 minutes till i use higher rpm
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The courtesy 2010 X3 I drove recently also has a temp gauge :dunno:
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It surprised me. Now, this isn't exact, as it idled for five minutes, since I started the engine when we arrived at the vehicle with the luggage cart to load it, but the coolant reach steady state after about 20 minutes (including the initial five minute idle). Of course, it was not a straight line, and most of the temperature increase took place early at a higher rate of change, so I'll give a few data points to give you an idea of the warm-up curve. Initial conditions (according to X5 OBD-II data) 10.4 degrees F ambient, 12.2 degrees F coolant. 02 minutes 10 and 43 03 minutes 10 and 54 05 minutes 12 and 68 Then started the drive to the interstate... 08 minutes 14 and 113 Entered the Interstate at about 9 minutes and drove at 50 MPH initially... 09 minutes 16 and 123 10 minutes 10 and 147 12 minutes 08 and 160 15 minutes 08 and 167 20 minutes 08 and 176 23 minutes 08 and 183 29 minutes 08 and 185 Then it stabilized at 185 and stayed there for the next hour while I cruised at about 70 mph until I stopped at a rest area. I forgot about the initial idling on that stop while I loaded the vehicle, so I'll check the data and see if I can find one more representative of a normal start without the long idle at the start, and post it. Maybe I can even figure out how to export the graph with the curve, as it give a clearer picture. So, roughly speaking, I'd say it would normally take 10-15 minutes from a cold start at 10 degrees to get to 90-95% of operating temperature. My plan to to collect enough data that I get a good idea of how long it takes to warm-up at various temperatures so I can make an estimate, since we have no temperature gauge any more, e.g., from zero, 32, and 70. |
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I'm very surprised that it took that long to stabilize. I guess I will wait at least 15 minutes before really getting on the gas. I would think at 170f everything should be sufficiently warmed up. Of course this data does not necessarily apply to a 4.8.
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You can buy the CarChip for about $100 to $150. You just plug it into the OBD-II port and then later download the data to your computer. It hold about 40 hours of data I believe, depending upon the sampling interval you choose for the parameters. Most the the data capture works with BMWs, but many of the parameters do not apply to diesels and are not logged, e.g., O2 sensor data, It will also log OBD-II error codes which can be read when downloaded to the computer. I have an older version, but here's a link to the latest: CarChip® Pro by Davis |
Thanks. That looks very interesting.
Just wish there was a firmware update to the idrive that would get temp on screen. |
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Video: The 2010 Ford Fusion Hybrid’s instrument cluster New High-Tech Ford Hybrid Instrument Cluster 'Rewards' You for Efficient Driving : TreeHugger BMW could easily add one more selection to the idrive. This selection would turn the idrive screen into a secondary instrument cluster and could show graphic pseudo-gauges of engine coolant temperature, instantaneous MPG, and/or other informational items that some enthusiasts want to see. Someone earlier mentioned airplane instrumentation. This is a similar approach to the airplane instrumentation which draws pseudo-gauges and allows the pilot to bring them to the screen, and which also automatically displays the appropriate gauge when an abnormal operating condition is detected. It wouldn't require any hard point or physical dash changes, since it would be a software implementation using data the engine computer already has available. They could even make it an extra cost option and make some money on it! |
I thought the rev counter shows a variable 'limit' that increases as the engine warms up. Won't be everybody's deeal solution but it does provide some guidance.
Peter T |
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I was also surprised by this. My Z4 has a water temp gauge and I just assumed the X would have the same thing. Personally I would like to have both an oil and water temp gauge. I could give up the stupid swinging fuel economy thing anytime. I always wait for the water temp to come up before I get on it in the Z4 but still wish I had the oil temp as this would be a better indicator of engine temp and if I recall takes longer to heat up than the water temp.
That being said all car purchases are a compromise and I have never bought a car that had everything that I wanted or the way I wanted it. When I can I custom build a car on the web? |
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That is better than not having a gauge, but you might be interested to know that BMW on the Z4 (and maybe others) "normalized" the temperature gauge. what does this mean? Well, auto manufacturers got tired of idiots bringing their cars in with complaints when they drove in 110 degree weather in stop and go traffic with the air conditioner full-blast and they saw the temperature gauge was showing hotter than "normal." Of course, running a bit hotter under such conditions is quite normal, but lots of idiots thought the dealer's explanation was so much BS and said if it was operating properly, it should always show the same temperature when warmed-up. So, how did the manufacturers address this dissatisfaction? They "normalized" or "buffered" the gauges. This means that when the temperature is within a range defined by the manufacturer as "normal," the gauge needle is forced to point straight-up, no matter what the actual temperature is. So once your Z4 temperature get warm enough, the needle will quickly go to straight-up. And it will not leave that position if it gets hotter or colder until the temperature goes out of the normal range, and then the needle will quickly move to the red overheating zone. So these type of temperature gauges are better than idiot lights, but they no longer are really showing the normal fluctuations in coolant temperature. |
Coolant temperature gauges have been buffered for awhile; I know my X3 shows the "normal straight up" position even if it isn't fully warmed. Around 78°C is when it approaches the mid position, and the temperature can waver between 86-98°C while driving in the M54 engine. With these newer engines that run even hotter, my mom's N52 runs anywhere from 92-107°C while driving regardless of outside temperature.
Nonetheless, BMW heard your complaints and is bringing them back. The 7er and 5er are examples of the new generation of gauges. I prefer the oil temperature gauge if it has to have any sort of temperature gauge- more useful than coolant temp in determining when it's safe to rev beyond 5000rpm. However, I still believe that the energy control gauge is more meaningful to me on a daily basis. |
If I unlock the OBC, there is what seems like an oil temp, but it's either missing the sensor or is an option that needs to be turned on. I just remember seeing one that said "OEL TEMP" but it's noton the list below.
1. Display Car's identification number, HW/SW version, construction date 2. A very beautiful instrument test 3. Current consumption (liters/hour) 4. Average consumption (liters/100 km) 5. Current range 6. I think this is remaining fuel in tank. Three sets of numbers: A/B/C. And I've noticed A+B=C. 7. Engine RPM / Coolant Temp (C) 8. Current Speed (kph) 9. System voltage at Term. "R" (Battery Voltage) 10. Country/Language (US, Spa, Ger, Jap, etc.) 11. Units am/pm 12. Average Speed 13. ETA 14. Date of Software Mask 15. Production Diagnosis 16. "" 17. Display Vehicle Specific Data 18. Alarm Changeover (cont. vs. intermittent OBC chime) 19. Lock/Unlock 20. Correction factor for fuel consumption (nicht ändern!) 21. Reset all defect codes 1. Several numbers and data 2. [Dispay Test] 3. VBR: x,x (liters/hr) 4. RW-VBR: x,x (liters/100 km) 5. RW: x (km) 6. Thttp://www.bimmerboard.com/images/emoticons/2.gifliters) 7. TMTL: x,x (liters) / KTMP C 8. V: x (kph) 9. UB: xx,xx (V) 10. LAND: 2=USA, 3=I, 4=E, 5=J, 6=F, 7=CDN, 8=AUS/GOLF, 0=D, 1=GB 11. EINHEIT 1: B3, B4, B5, B6, B7, B8, B9, BA, BB, BC, BD, BE, BF, B0, B1 EINHEIT 2: [similar to above, I didn't want to mess with it] 12. VANK: xx,x (kph) 13. ANKhttp://www.bimmerboard.com/images/emoticons/8.gifxhttp://www.bimmerboard.com/images/emoticons/8.gifx 14. ROM: 15. DIAG: 01 01 000 E3 16. PORT: 01 101010000, 02 101010000, 03...etc 17. PROM: 00 12, 01 37, 02 18, 03 E6, 04 02, 05 B3, 06 FF, 07 7E 18. HORN: DTON or [DTON flashing] 19. LOCK: ON 20. KVBR: 1000 21. RESET? |
I had it on my 04 525i and my 07 325i - can't say abiut the diesel until I pick up my 35d in the next few weeks.
Peter T |
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