X5 BMW Service Recommendation Changes?
 

I called my BMW dealer to schedule my annual service and got this message from the service manager...

"Bmw has changed its maintenance requirements. Bmw no longer changes the oil yearly unless the car is driven less than 6,000 miles in 1 yr. For cars that are driven more than 6,000 miles in a yr, they have to wait until car is recommending service to be performed (even if it may not be necessary for another yr). The fuel filter gets replaced when the car recommends it ( approx. 30,000 miles)."

My service light did not light up yet and it has more than 6000 miles...

I understood my oil/filter/wipers would be replaced yearly when I purchased the X5d regardless of miles. Will my computer service light pop on when 12 months is passed?

Here is a thread from a couple weeks ago; same topic:

http://www.xoutpost.com/off-topic/lo...ge-policy.html

GL, mD

Thanks David. I feel swindled by BMW.

God help those certified pre-owned BMW people whose vehicles went 24 months between oil/filter changes.....

Since you have a diesel, this does not apply, you still get annual oil changes.

Why? There is little evidence that more frequent oil change does any good in modern engines.

Not according to my service manager. But that would make some sense with the DEF refill stuff. Can you elaborate or site some reference? thanx

I specifically did not leave out filter in my statement as someone would post what you did.

While I cannot site an article, changing oil and filter every xxxx miles or annually has been recommended up until the manufacturor had to pay for it.

If you have a reference proving that regularly changing oil and filter does not extend the life of an engine please post it.

Pages of threads on the "topic", but I can understand the OP's consternation.
Otoh, in the scheme of "costs", an annual oil/filter change, paid by an owner,
is not penal, imo.

If I had a new diesel, I would do it; I still do an annual change on our 3 cars
and 3 scoots. I realize the car(s) oil may go "longer", but the reasonable cost
is acceptable to me.

The cost accountants got their way: the annual "change" was costing some
real dough spread across all the BMWs sold in the US. It is what it is...
GL, mD

Your first statement isn't true. Remember that the prepaid maintenance is in the US, not the rest of the world. You are taking your US experience and correlating it to maintenance practices world wide. Prepaid maintenance came in over a series of years, while maintenance intervals were extended over a different series of years. The timelines didn't necessariliy match up.

The SIB on free annual oil changes from 2001 (contained in the thread link that MD put up) only ever applied in the US. It didn't apply in Canada, for example, where we also have prepaid scheduled maintenance.

BMWNA in the US has let this go for years, probably not wanting to antagonize the relatively small % of owners who do want annual oil changes. They seem to have finally just decided that enough was enough.

I think that your request for proof that regularly changing oil and filter isn't beneficial is too broad. Seems like you are putting up a strawman that is easy to knock down. Instead, I would say that exceeding the maintenance frequency recommended by the manufacturer has little to no benefit.

Here is a link for you. It is a 100,000 mile engine that followed the BMW recommendations of 15,000 miles for oil and filter. Photos look pretty good. Seems to me that qualifies as proof. Now how about that proof that doing 7500 mile intervals or annual oil changes makes the vehicle last longer?

http://www.xoutpost.com/bmw-sav-foru...intervals.html

As a side note, I wouldn't worry about buying a CPO that followed the manufacturer's maintenance recommendations. BMW's own CPO guidelines will accept a vehicle in to the CPO program that has 5 years/60,000 miles and only two oil changes in that time. If it has two oil changes in 48 months/60,000 miles they don't even open the valve cover to look at it. Then they warrant the engine for the term of the CPO, and carry that risk themselves. I suggest that they know very well what the cost of not doing annual oil changes is in terms of engine wear, and that it is essentially non-existent. We are so far past requiring annual oil changes that I am not surprised that they are going to take the heat for not doing them in the US any longer.

It seems to me that their willingness to carry the financial risk relating to oil change intervals carries more weight that any suggestion that they are just trying to save money by not doing annual oil changes. Sure they are saving money, but it doesn't mean owners are being disadvantaged by the change in policy.

Link here: http://www.xoutpost.com/585947-post14.html

The diesels do not appear to be going the same 15,000 mile (approximately) intervals as the gasoline engine models before a service is called for. Several posters report seeing the lights come on quite a bit sooner, in the 10,000 - 12,000 mile range IIRC.

If you do want to pursue it with your dealer, read the SIB that I posted in the link MD gave, above. It states that diesels are not covered by the new policy. There may be a different SIB that does apply to diesel models, I am not sure.

Thanks for all of the info.

My suggestion was not BMW specific regarding recommendations to change your motor oil and filter more regularly will best maintain your engine. I have noted this for the past 40 years or so (when we paid for the oil/filter service).

Even with the advent of synthetic motor oil and better engine manufacturing tolerances, intervals have been extended but not to the 24 months BMW allows. Knowing that the bottom line is always the bottom line to large companies, BMW having to pay less (make more) for greater service intervals seems like quite the biased enticement for BMW's largest market.

While there may be an engine that is pristine in a photo utilizing BMW maintainence intervals, it does not prove or settle my concern that annual maintainence is better than 24 month oil/filter changes. I suggest that the cost benefit ratio of extended/ suggested interval replacement of oil/filter benefits BMW's pockets and not the vehicle owner (in the short term).

Perhaps someone will chime in with more specific mechanical experience or knowledge than I, but wonder what the oil manufacturors (how many times can I misspell that word) recommend for their product. Again, no bias there...

While BMW having to pay less (make more) for greater service intervals may sees like quite the biased enticement for BMW's largest market, if you as an owner then don't follow BMW's recommendations, but instead run 50% longer, and trade the car in, BMW has so little concern that they will turn around and warrant your engine for the full CPO term. The cost of failure of engines (both in repair costs and loss of reputation) in those cases would be far higher than the savings related to the owners who ask for annual oil changes. So, they have already put their money where their mouth is. On top of the warranty costs, BMW holds the lease residual values in many cases. They are the ones at risk. If engines started cratering, lease values would plummet.

I also don't believe you can ask an oil company for a recommendation on how much of their product you should buy. They were part of the 3000 mile change myth that went on for years. They are motivated to have you buy much more. You need to ask the engine manufacturers, as they are the ones who carry the risk. You can analyze the oil during its useful life, and see if it continues to exhibit the properties it needs, and whether it still has sufficient additives, but those tests have been done, and we know that the oil stands up, apart from those applications that can be judged to be severe service.

You mention synthetic oils and better manufacturing tolerances, but in my mind (mech eng here), what is more important is that the sump is twice the size of many others (giving literally twice the interval) and the engines are ultra low emissions, meaning that there are far fewer byproducts of combustion to contaminate the oil. Engines burning cleaner means the oil stays cleaner. You can filter out metallic particles, but you can't replace the additives that are lost to acids which contaminate the oil.

Let us know what your dealer says when you ask him if there is an SIB on annual oil changes that applies to your diesel.

Prior to my X5, I had a 2007 E90 335i. I did low mileage annual oil changes because I was driving between 8,000 and 10,000 miles per year. I did oil changes every 5,000 miles, so it worked out to twice a year:
BMW Dealer - Annual oil change
Indy BMW shop - Interim oil change.

They did not reset the CBS at the low mileage annual oil change, and neither did the Indy shop. The CBS doesn't actually sample the oil, it just uses an algorithm based on how much fuel is used.

The ONLY CBS requested oil change was after 25 months and nearly 19,000 miles!!!!! During those 19,000 miles, I did a BMW CCC and a BMW track day. That and a bunch of spirited drives through the mountains. There is NO WAY that the CBS should have not requested an oil change until 19,000 miles and over 2 years had passed. I don't care how good synthetic oil may be, that is just ludicrous.

Each time, I sent in a sample to Blackstone labs to be analyzed. When the TBN gets around 1.0, the detergents are ineffective and the oil should be changed. The lowest TBN I had was 2.4, with only 3,550 miles on the oil! That oil would have probably protected the engine until it had 7,000 or 8,000 miles on it. But, had I just gone with the CBS interval, that oil likely would have been toast a LONG TIME before.

The last sample I sent it in July had a TBN of 2.7 after 7,231 miles. So it was probably going to make 10,000 to 12,000 miles before it wasn't doing its job. Still, that is less than the factory-estimated 15,000 mile service.

And besides the TBN, the reports also indicated that wear metals were still pretty high, even after 26,000 miles. Not a good indicator for filter life. I think the filter can be changed pretty easily without draining the oil though. So maybe changing just the filter every 5,000 miles or so is a better bet?

Regardless, the X5 isn't going to be a low annual mileage vehicle. But if the CBS doesn't recommend a decent oil change interval, I'm going to have mid-cycle changes done, either by myself or at the indy shop.

So you get a change, right?

FORGET about the stupid CBS system. IMO, it is severely lacking: no coolant service interval, no brake fluid interval, no time interval, no fuel filter interval, no transmission fluid interval.

What else does it not track?

Nope, No annual oil and filter change (no DEF flush and fill) until service light comes on...

What does your iDrive say about your miles to the next service? I just took my 2010 35d in for the first scheduled service. I had 10,192 miles on it and according to iDrive I had 400 more miles before the first oil change/Diesel service. The SA told me as long as you are under 1000 miles to service, they will take the car in. You don't need to wait until the light comes on.

Mine says about 3,000 miles to go...

Are you sure about that?

http://www.xoutpost.com/763121-post14.html

The CBS does not keep track of time. So you could conceivable go years without a service.

(Sorry I misread your post about the 6000 miles)

You should point to the documents that came with the car- unless BMW wants to recall the car and modify those documents, those should prevail.

Finally, the DEF should be covered outside of the service interval indicator... BMW has acknowledged their warranty language is weak and will consider on an individual basis. I've posted about this before, but a DEF warning is, in fact, a "CBS indication that maintenance is required", jsut not an oilservice...BMWs interpretation that only DEF with Oilservice is NOT what is in the documents.


I suppose you might find a 12 month period in which you did under 6k?

GL

A

PS If you do an interim oil change, F the dealer...find an indy for it.

More certain than uncertain. I know you believe that some little widget in the sump is some sort of oil condition analyzer. In that link, you link to another thread where there is some TIS about an oil condition sensor found in N52 engines. Well, none of us have N52 engines, so that really isn't applicable.

And, if there really was a true oil condition sensor, then when I had my N54 powered 335i, would it not have increased the mileage to the next service when I did mid-cycle oil changes? Clearly the condition of my oil varied significantly, even regardless of miles, based on the Blackstone test. MY CBS never did increase the miles, it only counted down. So maybe there is a sensor, but it doesn't work for shit. If the systems are supposed "that smart", why would they suddenly become stupid and not figure out that the oil quality increased?

Also, my comment about the CBS being based mostly on fuel consumption is lifted directly from SIB 12 25 05 where is specifically states: "It is the total fuel consumption, and not the accumulated mileage, which influences when the next oil service will be forecast as due." And since we are talking about the forecast here (the stupid number in the display until the next service), my statement is accurate. The number may count down faster the closer you get to it, per the SIB, but what do we see every time we start the vehicle? The forecasted mileage to the next service of course!

In addition, that SIB was updated in July 2008, and references CBS4 (as well as models E70 and E90, which were introduced in 2007.) So it is current and up to date.

Regardless, based on my experience with the N54 and oil testing, I'll probably do oil changes between 6,000 and 7,000 miles. After a few tests come back, I may extend the interval based on the results. But I have more faith in Blackstone's report than the CBS.

At least with a dipstick, I may be able to pull an oil sample without having to drain the engine. Any one manage to do that?

This is a pretty simple topic.

1) Master BMW mechanics which do tech talks in major BMW publications state all fluid intervals are way to long based on the way Americans commute and push their engines/components. Sludge will build up based on typical low rpm and high moisture buildup, stop and go, abusive driving on parts which are build just enough to satisfy the accounts. Let just see how many modern cars are praised like there old school counterparts are now.

2) If you purchase a BMW because of the Zero maintenance policy then you drank the coolaid and my not be able to afford the car.... people now a days don't feel that they pay for anything... everything should be free. No need to keep anything because the next best thing will come out and I will buy that. Why would you need to maintain anything when you are going to throw it away in x years. Nobody keeps anything like they used to unless they think it is going to make them money. Most people cannot afford the standards at which people live now.... Imagine spending 50-75k on a 5 year loan and actually pay 1k a year just to maintain the car... BMW would never sell the cars they do today.

3) The faster that you burn your car up the quicker you purchase a new car. Stock holders no longer care about anything except "Growth". there is no long term only short term. How can I profit now. How do you obtain growth..... new markets or sell more product to existing customers at shorter intervals. A personal quote from a CEO of a company which manufactured home appliances ...... His brother makes cheese: "Why build something which can last 20 years when you can build something that will last half as much and pay the same price"... you just doubled your sales in the same time frame.... not to mention if it fails quicker.
3) Does anybody own insurance? Insurance is for suckers unless you have to use it. BMW can view long maintenance intervals the same way. The longest interval on warranty is 100k. Mathematics dictates this...

never mind... I can rant on forever but I am going to bed.

If you look up the part number for the 2005 model in the SIB, it is the same part number sensor as for the 3.0 twin turbo N54, and the 4.8 V8 in the E70 (I stopped checking parts books at that point) The SIB was just a convenient document to describe the oil condition sensor. It is also described in the E70 technical articles, so I don't think it is correct to say that it doesn't affect the X5.

You have two seemingly contradictory positions regarding your 335. You suggest that if the sensor worked, it would have extended the mileage. You also suggest that the CBS was telling you to change the oil at much too long an interval. Perhaps the mystery sensor was actually doing something and affecting the mileage count-down rate?

You are referencing the initial mile forecast for an oil service and considering it to be one and the same as the time when the oil service actually gets requested. The document you reference states that the initial forecast is based on fuel consumption, which is used to determine the interval for the first half of the said interval, at which point the count-down rate changes. We don't know why it changes, but this fits with owners that have said they changed their oil and the forecast didn't change. However, the eventual change interval does not work out to be linear with fuel consumption, as noted by several posters. So, something else is driving the oil change trigger. It may be the oil condition sensor, as BMW says, or perhaps it is something else entirely, but it is obviously not only based on fuel consumption due to simple observations and calculations.

Spoke with the BMW service manager today and he confirmed that either the service light had to be on, 24 months passed since no or first oil change, 6500 miles or less in 12 months, or within 1000 miles of the iDrive computer saying service would be due...

He also confirmed that DEF is no longer flush and fill during service, just topped off.

Thanks for the update.

Another thing I learned recently in a tech bulletin (posted on bimmerfest) was that you should not overfill the def reservoirs as the fluid could overflow and damage some parts. Owners don't have the right tools to know how much to put in so if I had to top off myself for whatever reason, I would play it safe. The more reason to make sure you get a complete fill at service time.

Oh please. Scare tactics to counter a swell of DIY. Do you really think a dealer will be better?

Here is a BIG HINT on how to properly fill and deal with any slight spills:

Garden hose.

Think back to all the DEF issue with people leaking DEF... BMW is surely not replacing other parts of lemoning cars due to 'hidden corrosion damage'

Guess what light came on today?

When starting my X5d the service light in the guadge cluster where the seatbelt warning usually displays went on upon ignition but does not stay on.

In the iDrive under vehicle information it says oil service due with the engine in orange instead of its usual green.

I barely have 8000 miles but I bet at October 1st it went off. I'd bet this yearly trigger will be deleted as part of the "software upgrade" they will do when its serviced....:dunno:

Want to know how great the BMW CBS works?

My 2010 X5 diesel showed 1,800 miles to the next oil change one Morning when there was 9,000 total mileage in the odometer. I drove it 50 miles that day ans the next time I started it it said I was 50 miles overdue for an oil change.

My guess is that the oil condition sensor is not really integrated into the CBS countdown system, but that if the oil condition sensor hits some particular reading limit, it overrides the rest of the system and calls for an immediate oil change.

My X5 now has 20,000 miles on it and the CBS called for the first oil change at about 9,000 miles, and the second oil change at about 17,700 miles.

After the second oil change it shows 10,000 miles to the next oil change, and 8,000 miles to the next "Vehicle Service." I have no idea what this means, as I have never seen the oil change interval not match other service intervals; however, I am guessing that the 8K is for a fuel filter change.

In any case, for the first two oil changes, the CBS interval is averaging less than 9,000 miles between oil changes.

My X5 is used almost exclusively on the highway, with minimal in-town stop-and-go driving, e.g., it is beginning to look like the CBS thinks high-speed highway driving is harder on the diesel oil than in-town stop-and-go driving.

How are you comparing highway driving service intervals to in-town driving service intervals in your example? Are you comparing the 9000 mile interval to previous experience with a gasoline engine?

It seems to me more like the CBS thinks the diesel engine needs oil changes more frequently than the gasoline engine models. If so, and given the high mileage diesel owners outside North America seem to get between oil changes, it may be related to North American diesel fuel quality.

Let us know if you find out what the vehicle service light trigger is, as my 535 is also calling for a vehicle service at other than oil change intervals.

No, I am comparing it to what other people have been reporting on this message board. Since my in-town driving is almost zero, I am assuming most other people have more in-town driving than I do. By average of an oil change in less than 9,000 miles on average also seems to place my vehicle at or near the bottom of oil change intervals. Hence my comment "it is beginning to look like the CBS thinks high-speed highway driving is harder on the diesel oil than in-town stop-and-go driving," which is quite a distance from being a definitive claim or conclusion.

Got my 8000 mile/annual service today. Noticed that the telephone number calling display is different since they programmed it (8:30 to 10:30am for oil/filter, def (?4 gallons) and wipers then 10:30 to 4pm for programming "upgrades" and two campaigns...)

Did not notice any difference other than the telephone display on the iDrive (improved) and that the brakes were better. Perhaps brakes just better than the X3 loaner (2010 MY) . All my contacts and destinations were preserved, fyi.

Both times after two different dealers refilled the DEF, there was residue from lots of DEF under both of the fill ports, obviously it overflowed to the ground and was not wiped off...

Frankly, I don't see how I could have done worse with a jug and a funnel.

I was at the dealer and asked the SA how they filled the def. he confirmed they pour until it overflows! Clearly that bulletin is full of BS.