I've not heard this before. Seals and gaskets, and O-rings are designed to outlast other mechanical moving part. I guess anyone can argue any part of an automobile is subject to wear and tear, and to that end nothing will apply under these warranties.

If the engine block develops a crack, due to repeated use of the engine which is put into extreme heat (summer) and cold (Canadian winter, outdoor parking), I guess such problem is expected under the definition of "normal wear and tear" as well.

I don't have a CPO warranty, but I do have third party mechanical warranty. It covers transmission "Oil pan, seals and gaskets" and I expect CPO warranty to do the same.

This issue is clearly design/material defect..

Yes, that is the other side of the same issue. Your expectations are that the parts will last as long as you have the car.

Incidentally, seals and gaskets are not designed to outlast the hardware they are sealing. That is why we routinely replace gaskets that have hardened.

Your last point is interesting. You mention that it may be the design that is defective. Very possible. Does the phrase "defects in materials and workmanship" cover design? Automakers will argue that it doesn't, that the part is 'working as designed'.

You, of course, bring uop a good point- which I am always harping on: it isn't the "part" that is covered or not, but rather HOW it fails.

"Wear and Tear" is an arguable issue. We know brake pads and clutch disks are such. But to expand 'wear and tear' to cover 'degradation of parts due to thermal cycling' goes well beyond common application of this term.

The key thing in THIS case is that IMO this is covered by BMW- and that Khan's dealer is jerking him around.

So to bring some additional clarity to this issue, I went and got hold of the BMW Canada document that lists what is covered. Here it is:

Full document on the BMW.ca site under CPO, here:

http://www.bmw.ca/ca/en/usedvehicles..._Guide_Eng.pdf

The CPO document provides a specific list of what is covered. If it isn't on the list, it isn't covered.

conix67, on the other hand, has a less exclusive list of what is covered in his third party agreement. I wouldn't describe that agreement so much as a warranty, as much as it is a service agreement, or insurance policy. The policy seller probably goes to great lengths to define his service offering as "not an insurance policy", as most of them do that. Calling it an insurance policy makes them subject to various state and federal laws that say they have to hold financial reserves (like real insurance companies do). Since many of them don't, but instead treat claims as a cash flow issue, they don't want it thought of as an insurance policy. On a related note, that is why so many go under after taking people's money. I still think they are insurance policies, since the premiums are a risk calculation based on calculating the cost of fixing a wide range of things that may happen for a wide variety of reasons, not all related to defects in materials and workmanship.

Back on topic, while it may not be palatable to the purchaser of the CPO policy, seals and gaskets are specifically excluded unless they are consumed as part of a repair of a specifically covered (internal) component. Seems to me that he is out of luck, unfortunately.

Correct.
A 3rd party 'extended warranty' is more accurately called "Mechanical Breakdown Insurance" or MBI. It is not a 'warranty' and is not subject to the same rules as a warranty. In the USA (and I assume canada) there are laws concerning consumer warranties (ie Magnussen Moss in the USA)..but a third party extended warranty is a contractual agreement not subject to warranty laws.


Interesting document from canada on CPO.... is it possible this is covered in the USA and not in Canada?

USA "Not COvered"
USA Covered:

Hmm, you must have been editing.

Completely possible, as you know they are different BMW marketing organizations offering the warranties. BMW CA is not part of BMW North America (the grandiose name of BMW US). The text around 'what is not covered' and 'what is included' is very similar in the advertising materials and your attachment above, but we get a much more specific document that is freely available on the BMW CA website. I think it is probably similar to BMW NA's document that they call the Consumer Information Statement or something like that. It may be our consumer protection laws that require that to be posted in plain language. Damn socialists :rofl:

I was editing. :thumbup:

And was also thinking we need a copy of the "Consumer Information Statement" that they so helpfully allow one to "inspect" at the dealership.

I believe it was posted by mgruber/X5 Meister 3 years ago. That document was dated 2006, so I expect it may have been updated by now. It is here:

http://www.xoutpost.com/642478-post17.html

and the final pages are here:

http://www.xoutpost.com/642479-post18.html

That is the same as my old CPO document. Wonder if it has changed?

The whole concept of "wear and tear"- is surely subject to some interpretation. I mean isnt EVERYTHING subject to 'gradual deterioration' and then ultimately failure? I would argue that I am not claiming it has gradually failed- it was fine for X miles, and then suddenly failed. Typically you see that clause applied to loss of compression, oil pressure, etc... so people cannot make a claim that "when it was new it was X and now it is Y so replace it". And obviously the wear parts- suspension, etc, is excluded.

Sure, many things are subject to deterioration and ultimately failure. But the CPO warranty is for defects in materials and workmanship, not for things that gradually deteriorated (ie wore) and then stopped working. If it is a defect in the material or workmanship, BMW and other manufacturers would point out that it would have failed much sooner. The only that that happened over the subsequent years is, well, wear. Which is excluded.

There was also an inconsistency in your post: You suggest that everything is subject to wear, and additionally that some parts are called 'wear parts'. All parts wear.

All of this is moot for Khan, though, since the CPO document specifically excludes all gaskets and seals.