Check Engine Light On
 

The check engine light has been on for last few days. My wife drives the car and when she informed me I went through the regular routine, tightened the gas cap etc. but that didn't help. I took it to the $tealer today and now they inform me that there seems to be some timing issue for which they may have to take the engine apart. I am dreading the estimate on that work. It's an 08 (details in signature) and I don't have extended warranty, wish now that I had bought it :(

Appreciate any suggestions..

Hit a local knowledgeable BMW oriented Indie who has a quality, high level scanner, esp with the 'BMW sub menus', and get a 2nd opin.

Your post, and the dearth of dlr info is not much to go on, for the scan mavens here.

Fwiw, I had P 0172 last summer, which can mean a list of possible items. My Indie checked it with his Launch X431 and BMW programs, showed sub code 12, exhaust gas sensor. Installed a new one in 5 mins, and back to normal.

The point of my anecdote is you need to zero in on the SES light 'reason', then determine a repair possibility vs what the dlr said or didn't say...like having a toothache and the doc wants to cut off a leg and do brain surgery, all on your nickel.
GL, mD

This month, my Check Engine light, turned out be FC 2A91, FA8D. Which apparently translated into my service department having to replace the vanos solenoid valves. [I was happy that it was covered by extended warranty].

(I had other bigger issues too but won't go into those here but suffice to say, it took the service department 5 days to resolve those :( )

Thanks for the replies, the codes they are getting are 2A98 Crank Lift Cam and and 2A13 DMTL Leak, Seized Pump. Thinking of taking to an Indie. The $tealer will charge "1800 just to take the engine apart", as they say.

Stop. They are screwing you. The only uncertainty is the extent of the screwing.

First, clear the codes and see if they come back. If the cel comes on, read the codes and post it.

The crank lift cam doesn't just up and break inside the engine, and simply set a code!!!! It is most likely a sensor reading being interpreted as this fault. A dealer will have a 'test plan' to run to diagnose this further. 1800 is just rape.

The dmtl fault is an evap emissions system fault. Could be old, could be a hard failure of the dmtl pump.


Find an Indy

Clear the codes

See what returns

Go from there.

DO NOT let the dealer work on this- they have you pegged as a victim to be bled.

A

[OT warning]

On the e39 m5 the VANOS issues were legendary...at first, dealers just knew "replace VANOS" and the entire vanos assembly was replaced at a cost of $4000 per side... most under warranty. Then BMWAG figured it out and began selling just the vanos SOLENOIDs...at $400 per side. Nice. But then the solenoids went to $1200 per side, and we began fixing them!

The point is that BMW replaces parts, they dont fix parts... and out of necessity, we learned that solenoids failed for three reasons: internal fouling with debris, the traces on the circuits cracking and the sealing o-rings leaking.

So now, the fix is simple: clean them out withj carb cleaner, actuate them with a battery, re-solder damaged traces, pop in new o-rings and reinstall.... a car that the BMW dealer says "Needs two VANOS at $7800" can be fixed perfectly for $100.

Keep this in mind as other cars fail outside of warranty!

Thanks ard, exactly my thinking. Especially as I saw no engine issues since this light has come on, no hesitation, no going limp, etc. typical things people have noticed with Vanos related "real" issues.

A cursory web reading of the 2A98 code suggests a solenoid and/or cam ledges, fwiw.

I wouldn't go back to that dlr for anything...
GL, mD

I got the X5 back, the SA says he has contacted BMW to see if they can help out. There are only 42000 miles on the car and it went out of warranty Aug 2012. Let's see if that pans out, though not too hopeful, they are supposed to get back in 2 days. Thinking, will wait to go to the Indy.

Op
What state?

Same as yours, bay area

Uh, check out your 7yr.70k mile California Emssions statement. I am thinking the DTML pump is the 'vacuum pump' that is listed as 'covered'.

If it were me, I'd demand BMW clarify what 'vacuum pump' they cover in the emissions statement...BEFORE telling them you have a claim.

That may be why the helpful SA just up an volunteered to contact BMW, not for goodwill- but just to see if it is covered.

A

Thanks for the heads-up, appreciate it :) I think when I informed them that I am picking up the car they also realized they might just lose a loyal BMW customer for good and possibly the issue could just be with the sensor, which probably is a less than $200 job to replace it.

Like when you didnt fall for the $1800 quote, they had to figure out a fall back tactic....

Now they can say goodwill, or BMW... whereas had you said ok to the 1800 estimate, any bets on their coming back n
and saying 'it was only 200'?

i am such a cynic....

So as it turns out BMW NA is refusing to assist. During the investigation I found that the BMW Dealership didn't replace the oil in the last service but apparently reset the service level indicator which is showing 2400miles to next service or June 2013, though they had the car for Service in June 2012 when it should have been done.

I contacted BMW NA and they say that you will have to take up the issue with the BMW Dealer directly and if BMW NA has already turned down the request to assist then they will not entertain the request again.

Any suggestions on what my options are in this situation?

What a mess.

First, is BMWNA claiming there is no warranty BECAUSE the dealer didnt change the oil??? If yes, and this is in writing (I can virtually guarantee you this is all phone calls and messages, right?) then get a lawyer involved.

If they are now separate issues, you need to know what is causing the CEL fault.

Did the dealer tell you what part is bad and is causing the DMTL issue? Find out what 'vacuum pump' is covered by BMWNA in the CA warranty. Do this WITHOUT tipping your hand.

Generally people spill their guts and tell their 'story' to the nice agents on the phone- and these people are experts in screwing you. They make it sound like they are dedicated to getting to the bottom of your issue- but in fact they are trying to (1) protect BMWNA, and (2) protect the dealer, if possible. Essentially BMW is saying 'you are on your own with the dealer, feel free to sue them- but we arent doing a thing'.

If your lawyer can force BMWNA and/or the dealer to go on the record with the 'failure to change oil' issue, this may be leverage. At the very least getting this on record may help you later. Did the dealer file a maintenance claim with BMWNA for work never done?

Anyway, first step is to diagnose your emissions fault. Find out if it is a warranted part.
Then demand to BMWNA in writing. Force them to refuse in writing.
Then escalate, letters to CA CARB. Complaint.
Then go after the dealer for defrauding you and voiding your warranty with BMWNA

my 2 cents

Thanks Ard, Because the dealer has been interacting with BMWNA I don't have anything in writing. I was informed about their refusal by the SA so again, except for their call, no other record. I did talk to the service director who now says that there is still some scope to change BMWNA's mind and he will be talking to them again and explaining the facts. I will file my own formal request to BMW through their online form but I am definitely considering my legal options as well, if they are not willing to put this mess right.

have you bothered to find out what 'vacuum pump' is covered in BMW's california warranty?

"on line form"?!?!?? Do you think attorneys file online lawsuits?

"mess right"? What mess? You have a car out of warranty, you arent bothering to see if the CA warranty applies...and you think somehow BMW is responsible for a mess?

The more you talk and send emails and file online forms, without understanding the underlying facts, the more entrenched they get and the harder it will be to move them off a decision.

IMO

Update: BMW is offering to cover 50% of the repair costs. The DMTL pump is covered under CA emissions warranty.

Can I gloat?:cool:

But what are the 'splitting' with you????????????

Do you really think the engine needs to be torn apart for the crank lift issue??? IMO, they know it is a sensor and will do that for $100 and 10 minutes time, and take your $900. Ask yourself- why are they willing to split 1800 to 'fix it', yet when that was first presented it was just to diagnose.....

Did you get another diagnosis/estimate? If no, why not? you'd be in a MUCH better position to refute them, negotiate with them, or decline their offer. Instead you need to waste time or bend over.

For the life of me I dont understand how people who will get 2nd and 3rd opinions from doctors who go to school for 16 years, yet will blindly assume a junior college drop out has nailed their code fix with nothing more than a spitball number.... ;)

A

Man, you're a harsh one, ard. However, I have grown to appreciate your candidness over the years.

OP, I think you need to get a second opinion. While some indy shops look like crack houses, there are some legitimate ones out there. The dealer isn't this special kingdom paved with gold service bays. It just looks nice because they have rich guys backing them, and can afford to spend the money on a "nice" service center/dealership. Unfortunately, this massive expenditure doesn't always translate to the staff/service techs.

Ard, sure appreciate your advise but sure can do without the acerbic candor :) Do keep your suggestions coming.

It's just been a crazy week for me 'cause I had promised my daughter to take her to Disney, with the X5 out of action I had to take my 3 series, plus the dealer was taking their time to connect with BMW. I had already left a msg for my Indy but could only connect back once I returned from my trip.

The Indy says it's very rare to have a damaged Vanos assembly, usually these errors are thrown by dirty solenoids which can be cleaned for $150 bucks. If there is indeed wear and tear they can be replaced for a few hundred.

I also got the estimate from the dealer, they are still gonna charge 1000+ even with BMWNA pitching 50%, so no guesses where I am taking the car for a checkup.

Did the dealer give you a written diagnosis? You've probably thought this, but if not, how can they set a price? For sport I'd hound them on that for a while, but still take it elsewhere for the vanos/cam code. make them fix the DTML at the same time they are writing up a written estimate....BMW doesnt split "estimates to figure out whayt is wrong". IMO, BMW isnt paying for it, they know $500 will more than cover it. Again IMO

Glad the indy provided that input. One thing to consider- many times the cause of cam/vanos/crank timing codes is that a position sensors develop cracks/delaminations internally and the signals that get transmitted to the DME become degraded- eventually throwing a code. The otehr issue is, like he said, you get o rings degrading around the solenoids and/or crap in the solenoids themselves. The differential diagnosis is running a VANOS function test on the GT1. Solenoid issues will show up with a reduced ability to vary timing. Whereas a bad sensor will be occasional and sporadic. But we dont even have a code yet, do we?

GL

A


PS I can be rough, but part of the reason is to get peoples' attention....:cool:

PS I can be rough, but part of the reason is to get peoples' attention....:cool:[/QUOTE]

:bow: Ard, I can vouch for that!

ak

Ard, the dealer said that on avg. the cost should be about 1300 and max 2400. They sent it to me in an email, so somewhat of a written proof, but it is not a diagnosis. I am not sure if I should take the car back to them for the DMTL pump replacement, the way they have tried to rip me.

Anywayz, so the Indy took out the VANOS solenoids and swapped them, should give an idea if indeed one of them is bad, the fault will switch from intake to exhaust. BTW, found a DIY video on it and seems to be a fairly easy thing to do.

Now the Indy is recommending replacing valve cover gasket, eccentric shaft sensor seal and thrust arm bushing, all for a mere $900, majority of that is labor. I am thinking I might just try to do the valve cover gasket on my own. Found a DIY video on it, and seems to be pretty straightforward. Anyone else tried doing it on their own? Experiences?

:thumbup:

...I'd hate to know what the other part of the reason is. :D

Sport.:yikes:

Stuff like that just pisses me off.... It is blatant screwing, they know it, you know it, BMWNA doesnt care. For them to claim it is 1200-2400 and BMWNA is paying half is laughable. BMW doesnt pay half of guesswork!

Make them do the DMTL repair, why spend the $$$$? Plus, if something else breaks later you dont want those thieves claiming it was the indy.

Publish the name of the SA and dealer- they deserve the shaming.

GL

A