E70 wheel alignment
 

Hi, I have an E70 with sports suspension and 20's and wondered if the usual problems of outer front and inner rear tyre wear is normal even when the alignment is within BMW's specification?.

I am in the process of choosing some new non runflat tyres, for around £700 I can get Falkens, Toyo's, Hankooks, Vedesteins etc.
I would like to try the new Michelin latitude Sport 3 SUV tyre but at another £250 a set they* would probably be wasted if they get scrubbed out on the edges like the Bridgestone's have in the past.

Any views on this will be greatly appreciated.

To answer your question, sadly yes.

Because the "BMW Specification" is too large and allows a very suboptimal alignment!!!

With an optimal alignment you can get 40k miles. On a poor alignmnet- but still 'within spec' you can get 15k.

What were you alignment specs the last time you had it done? If you just got a "yes it is in spec" then you dont have enought info.

Ive posted before, you can do a search- but you want to set the TOE almost right at the lower limit. So toe in like 0.01 to 0.02 at each wheel. Caster and camber at mid range. BMW dealers are the last place to get alignments done.

IMO

Thanks for the reply. We have only had the car 6 months but when I had the alignment checked the toe was out at the front and this was corrected.
One of the rears was also out but due to a seized bolt this was left, my plan is to replace both rear udjusting bolts and get the alignment done before the new tyres go on.
There is a place near me called the alignment centre and it will be going there as thats all they do so they have a few years experience. They should be able to keep things at the better end of the specification range.

The main reason for posting is I don't want to get the alignment done, fit a set of Michelin latitude sport 3's and then wear the edges out like on my Bridgestones with 4-5mm left on the tyres.
If this is still going to be the case I will save the £250 a set and get the Hankook ventus S1 evo's or Vedestein ultrac vorti's.

I hope you understading what I am saying.

"The toe was out and this was corrected" may mean they just put it somehwewre 'in spec'

The truth- and this has been validated by many owners here reporting their results- is that THE BMW SPEC IS TOO LARGE!!!!!!!!!!

They allow 0.00 to 0.08 per wheel with 0.00 to 0.16 cross toe.

This is HUGE.

At 0.08 you will get 15k miles. at 0.01 you will get 40k. WHERE WAS YOURS SET??????

I like going to a shop that specializes in alignments, day in and day out. They can easily hit these numbers. I tip my guy $10 if they are nice and engage with me in the process.

I got 32k on my first set of mich latitudes. (lemoned that car) Then 40k on the second set on a new 2012...Now on my third set

Life is to short to drive on crappy tires...

;)

This is the report below from the last company that did an alignment but I will be using another company locally that only do wheel alignment that are very experienced with it before the new tyres go on.
I was told the rear toe couldn't be adjusted until I had the seized adjusting bolts replaced or made good. Can you adjust the rear camber or is this fixed on the E70?
This is the last report:-
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/g...psab43defb.jpg
And this is the local company that will be re-doing it before my new tyres go on:-
Wheel Alignment in Southampton | Tyre Alignment in Winchester

I forgot to ask are you running 20" wheels and sports suspension on your E70's?

Some of us are willing to give up a bit of tire wear for better turn in and cornering, so we like more toe or camber :)

Oh please. first it is an SUV. Camber in spec is fine, and definitely you want negative in the rear. But toe? you really think that helps 'turn in and cornering' in a way that makes a bit of difference in a lumbering SUV??? You're kidding yourself.

These are not sport sedans, they are not track cars. The whole 'toe helps turn in' is a canard that isnt really applicable to an SUV.


OP- those specs are pretty odd. They look like their specs not BMW specs.

I do not like how the front cambers are out of whack- one neg, one positive?!

Set the toe to 0.01- 0.02" each wheel. Balance the front camber. Zero is fine. Rear at -1.x fine.

Do not fall for this nonsense about handling, turn in and cornering- with TOE...

Mine doesn't "lumber". But it does handle pretty nicely, including turn in. If you can't tell a difference, can I suggest a Suburban?

I don't know what to say about there alignment specs but I do know they have good 4 wheel laser equipment and lots of car clubs have used them in the past. I however am going to try the Wheel alignment centre(I posted the link above) so it will be interested to see what specs they work with.

I thought you could only changed the front camber if you fitted the camber correction top arms part no.6
RealOEM.com * BMW E70 X5 3.0d Frnt axle support,wishbone/tension strut
I also have a new pair of lower arms to fit before the alignment check due to slightly worn ball joints so this may help also.

Can you adjust camber on the rear of an e70 or just the toe?

Thanks for all your help so far.

My two cars are and M5 and a track prepped, modified 996TT.

So maybe the X5 does lumber a bit.:thumbup:

And my wife's X5 has adaptive drive. (A feature that adds far more to handling than screwing around with alignment specs, BTW.. Given your desire to get peak handling, I assume you have that, right? )

[insert comment that 14thbmw has been chasing 'handling issues' with his 2013 in other posts]

http://www.xoutpost.com/bmw-sav-foru...-handling.html





However, to moronically repeat the nonsense about 'turn in' and toe, for people that will never need to be concerned about turn in, does members a disservice. ESPECIALLY when people are just repeating what they heard from elsewhere.

Especially when your own set up isnt dialed in, eh?

Set your x5 to mid range of toe, then set it to 0.01-0.02...THEN come on here and talk about how horrific the turn in was at 0,01; how you just couldnt set up right entering the corkscrew or how you track times suck with the lower toe.




OP- you get to chose your specs and tell them where you want it. If you are going to just 'see what they use'...all I can say is good luck.

That's the point - you can have it set up a lot of different ways, with various tradeoffs, according to YOUR preference. You and I may disagree on what makes sense, but that's our choice, the vehicle allows for a range of setups and therefore handling and tire wear characteristics.

Right, but your argument uses a canard- that 'toe in will help turn-in on an X5 with otherwise stock settings'

On an aggressive track set up you run negative toe on front and positive toe in the rear. Did you know that? Or are you running positive toe all 4 corners thinking this is the 'best' for turn in???

Do some research- that old wives tale is just that. From tirerack (not that I like them much, but their advice is usually well vetted):

My advice, above, is minimum toe so your car isnt skittish- slight negatve- and thats it. Turn in is not a consideration and if you want that, you dont toe the fronts!

IMO of course

Hi ard,

Sorry to resurrect an old thread but it seemed to make more sense than starting a new one. I've read this post and several others of yours including on bimmerfest.

My understanding is that for a standard E70 (not including X5M and possible adaptive drive models which could be different) it's the rear camber, rear toe and front toe that are directly adjustable - things like front camber may be affected by toe adjustment. Front camber can be changed with different control arms (really for accident repair) or other third party modifications. Rear camber should be adjusted first, followed by rear toe, then ensuring the SW is properly centred the front toe. The recommended settings are:

Rear camber: -1.3 (units?)
Front/rear toe: 0.01-0.02" from centre

Something that seems to be causing confusion in most of these threads is the unit of measure. Most people posting their figures are showing them in degrees and minutes while you specify (the toe at least) in " from centre.

Could you clarify by summarising the desired toe and camber settings (front and rear) in BOTH " and degrees/minutes? This way when I go to the alignment centre I can ensure that they get this correct.

Thanks.

So the simple answer is that you want the toe set to 'just a smidge off 0.000'. SO if I use inches or minite-degrees, it is all pretty close. It isnt the number that is important, it is that you want it 'almost to zero, just a bit off'



if you take 0.02" at the outer edge of a 25" wheel/tire. then that is about 0.023 degrees which is about 0 degrees, 1.38 minutes.



https://robrobinette.com/ConvertToeInchesToDegrees.htm




So if you ask for 0.02" or 0.02 degrees, you are good.


Camber is in degrees.


AD and standard are the same, BTW.

Thank you ard I appreciate that info.

I finally decided to stick with the 20" staggered setup and RFL (was considering non-RFL or a 19" staggered setup).

I've ordered Dunlop SportMaxxx (not the GT as they are reported to aquaplane significantly more than the other choices). Phoned around a few tyre shops and alignment centres to get pricing and ask whether I can specify my own figures. Several of them blagged on about the range that the machine 'allows' them to set, even when I suggested that they could set it to the minimum in that range they were reluctant to accept that it might be possible - too used to dealing with clueless 'punters' in my opinion. In the end I called a BMW focused tuning company based next to a local race track and asked if they can recommend a place for alignment; they did and when I called the guy immediately said "for an X5 personally I would set '0' toe-in otherwise the tyres will wear on the edges, but if you want something else we can do that"; so that's where I'll be heading once the rubber is delivered in a couple of days.

Any harm in going with his suggestion of '0'; should I insist on 0'01"-0'02"?

Also what about tyre pressures - I was thinking go with the unloaded pilar pressures of 32psi all around and half a tank of fuel. It's usually just me in the car or me and the wife with a couple of sets of golf clubs over the weekend.

Good response from the shop. If you have a chat with them, and said 'I just want a very slight bit of toe to prevent it from feeling squirrelly', he'd probably response "yep, sure- good idea'. I'd think. (Obviously run that through a proper English-to-english translator...)

Report back what he says and what you decide.

On tire pressure I run a bit high- I find it helps reduce the edge wear. 34 usually, 36 in the rear if we are loaded. But this is HIGHLY tire model dependent. I run much latitude Tour HP ZP.

I was running 38 all around on the rft's because it actually felt better over bumps than 32. Since the rft have very stiff sidewalls a higher pressure gives more cushioning.

On my non rft snows 36 works well for wear and ride.

So then the question is what pressure to have put in them before the alignment... I’d imagine change in pressure might change the alignment to some extent?

no it wont.


alignment is a suspension/wheel thing, not a rubber tire thing.


:cool:

Interesting. I figured changing the tyre pressure will change the way that the tyre sits on the road and therefore the angle that the wheel sits at. I guess we are talking about tiny angles and massive forces (gravity + mass of car).

Oh and an American to English translator wasn't required, that made perfect sense.. :)

Most modern alignmnets are done with a machine that clamps a 'fiducial' onto the wheel itself. A three legged assembly with a angled reflector. This essentially translates the angle OF THE METAL WHEEL ITSELF to the machine. The tires simply hold the car up in the air, they don't 'constrain' nor hold the wheel at some odd position. You will see them roll the car back and forth, as it sits on a roller plate- this lets the car 'find a neutral position'.

Obviously you want all 4 tires the same size, and approximately at normal pressures. (Not two at 40 and two at 20). But a few PSI, or even an alignment on old tires should not have a big impact. IMO

All done. The guys were really good and took their time to get it as close to what I requested as possible, let me hang around and watch, see where the adjustment points are etc. The previous state had significantly more front toe than spec and the rear was towards the upper end of the range.


In terms of feel, I can feel a difference for sure. I'm not sure how much is due to the alignment and how much is down to new rubber.

+ Steering feels lighter and more responsive - especially at low speed.
+ Does not seem to 'tramline' so much (follow the grooves worn in to the road by trucks etc).
- Feels less 'planted' or 'locked-in' when cruising down the motorway, I guess expected with significantly less toe-in than before.

Turn-in/cornering also feels a bit different; I'm not sure whether it's better or worse. Some might say it feels more responsive and turns in more quickly, some might say it feels less stable.

This is a very loose analysis after driving home 50 miles (30-40 miles motorway). I imagine it will take me a little while to adapt and for the tyres to bed in a bit.

Overall happy, now time will tell in terms of wear on the front outside edges. Only covering 5-6k miles per year it might take a while.

I'm running at 34 PSI all round; previously ran 32 all round. I'll have a play with different pressures over time.

For the benefit of anyone else looking for a good garage in South East London in the future I used 'Wheel Power' in Brockley/Lewisham.

Nicely done.


Did you post up thread your mileage, tire model and wear pattern?


AT your mileage, you will change tires due to age and sidewall cracking before you wear these out!


;)

I didn't no, but then I didn't' have the previous set from new (they must have been 6 months old when I brought the car 3 years ago) so I don't know how many miles they had on them in total. I put ~20k on them. Rears were evenly worn with around 3-4mm left on them - the issues they had were cracking (inside the main tread rings) and a few gashes. Fronts were also pretty decent, around the same left on most of the tyre apart from the outside edge which was really scrubbed. They were Bridgestones and I've gone to Dunlop now for a change.

Personally I think the old tyres would have been ok for another year but the MOT testing centre (don't know if you guys have a similar annual roadworthiness test) insisted on failing it. I think they were hoping I'd just pay them for a new set of tyres but I specifically did not as I don't want to support that model of business generation :rolleyes:

Thanks for all of your help ard. I'm surprised you don't have a sticky thread with all of this info in it.

Thanks for posting the before/after JBF.

I printed the 'after' specs and will show this to the shop. Figure I should get the alignment checked after installing lowering springs and front camber arms.

Question.. how much of a difference does it make if it's a square set up or staggered for alignment specs?


I switched from staggered to 20" squared and I'm experiencing excessive wear on my driver side front tire. I don't remember specifically hitting anything but it is possible I bumped something with my snow tires on during the winter. I noticed a noise coming from driver side front wheel and after installing my new summer wheels the noise was still apparent. I thought perhaps it was a wheel bearing but my Indie says it needs an alignment and is not the bearing.



Are JBFs specs above what I should have an alignment shop aim for (Thanks for posting JBF!)?


Thanks

IMO tire sizes don't matter.