Diesel Value
 

I'm on my 2nd X5 which is a '10 35d, the first being an '08 gas job. At 123,000 miles, I have decided to sell it. It has been very good with no repairs required between 50k miles until 107k except rear air spring replacement. Brake rotors and pads were replaced at 80k miles as well as complete transmission/rear end/transfer case fluid change at 75k but those are maintenance tasks.

At 107k miles, the EGR cooler and a valve required replacement within 2 weeks of a failed # 5 injector (which is a common issue). Now at 123k miles, the NOX sensors required replacing and 2 days later the glow plug control module needs replacing. It is now in the shop and although I don't know the final tally on this job, over $5,000 will have been spent since the 107,000 mile mark.

My goal was to get to 150,000 miles, but I realized I have been here before, and I should listen to the warnings. My 1992 MB 300SD developed a problem ( albeit at 190k) that simply could not be diagnosed, and my 2003 GMC Duramax developed an issue that could not be resolved at 117k. Although I am obviously a diesel die hard, this situation with my present vehicle is making me question the overall cost effectiveness of diesel ownership. While I cannot deny the great mileage and torque diesels provide along with my favorite benefit, that being the substantially reduced fuel stops, the dollar savings in fuel have been negated by the costs incurred since the 107,000 mile mark.

In retrospect, I should have sent her down the road at 100k and called it a day. I am now on the verge of ordering another X535d and am trying to come to grips with my decision. I am hooked on the torque, great towing capacity and of course super efficient fuel use, but any thought that the diesel is in fact a long term cost effective solution to the high mileage user has been put to rest as a myth in my opinion. I am now thinking ( and I hate to admit this because it goes against my grain), that the "smart" 35d buyer gets rid of it somewhere between 50 and 100k miles. This of course is exactly as BMW would have it and that rubs me wrong as well.

I am trying to have an open mind and have decided to look at other vehicles as well ( a Cayenne diesel?/), but my confidence of owning modern clean diesels cost effectively well into the 200k range just isn't there. That "truth" calls into question my love for driving vehicles like the X and makes me wonder why in the heck I can't be satisfied with a Subaru or Honda.

There is no question here, simply a sharing of my situation. Fortunately, I can purchase another X, but the financial manager asks why?? I know it's not about the money, but at some point one has to look hard at the reasons why we are driven to drive these cars.

Not sure if you saw this but perhaps the information might be helpful.
http://www.xoutpost.com/bmw-sav-foru...esel-pain.html

I did see that-thank you. Perhaps I need to take a 35i for a drive as the engine/transmission is different than the '08 I had. There was a world of difference in towing though between the 3.0 and 35d though.

Reading stuff like this makes me apprehensive about my recent purchase of a 2011 35d. It has almost 74k on it now and is, by all indications, running great.

The X5 certainly has its share of issues for sure. What it has going against it is inherent complication, new technology, by way of clean diesel technology particularly, and just a lot of expensive technology, mostly providing creature components. All of this just increases the parts count which means there's more to go wrong.

To calm myself, I just remember that it is much the same with the other BMW in my life, a 2001 M5. There is a lot of online anecdotes that suggest that it is a money pit and I've certainly put a bit of money into it this past year. I think once you're caught up on the maintenance and if you don't let issues fester and linger, the M5 is not too bad.

My plan for the X5 at this point in the ownership is to get all of the fluids and filters changed, probably not flushing the transmission and using Mobil 1 oil, monitor it closely and then just drive it. It seems to work for the M5 and me. Threads like this and the one linked to above definitely help me to know what to look out for.

Lubehead, very cogent commentary in your post.

As I occasionally daydream about 'what SUV-like' car to replace our '01 3.0 X with, the diesel version crosses my mind: we don't tow, but we keep cars a long time and my daydreaming thinking was this would be a 'last replacement' for our '01, (that really doesn't need 'replacing' soon, imo).

But it is posts like yours and others that suggest the diesel option is not a superior real advantage, at least in terms of how we use our car(s), and the extended future time repairs remain a real concern.

Curious to read your ultimate decision and other commentary in your thread.
GL, mD

Frankly I dont know what to think...

I had a 2010 with every emissions issue- one of the first ones on which BMW 'learned' all the SCR/DEF 'fixes'...and I lemoned it: http://www.xoutpost.com/846433-post20.html

Then bought a 2012 that has been flawless for 55k.

Just luck? Short term fixes in place, but long term storms gathering?? Hmmm...

But one wonders, with posts like this- will we see a broad series of failures post 100k?

I dont mind putting 5k, 10k or more in a car to go from 100 to 200k. Just awfully hard to pony up a pile right at the beginning. (ie 107k)

I also suspect that as DIYers learn more, the most economical repair methods will be discovered. (Im relying on lpcapital to pave the way!)

I understand diesel BMWs are a fairly new thing to the North American market, but the e53 3.0d have been running around Europe and Australia (as well as other markets I'm sure) for over 10 years. As a result, I have found that there is a large amount of knowledge out there for DIY'ers, but that you need to look towards the UK forums to find it.

I think diesels traditionally come with this illusion that they are unbreakable, and will just keep on trucking until they rust into the ground. That may be true of old Landcruiser's and Hilux's - but these modern diesels need just as much maintenance and upkeep as a petrol/gas powered car. In fact, as you've pointed out, with all the emissions gear on them required to keep them smog legal, and the issues that come up from carbon build up in cars that don't get regular long distance runs - they can be even more problematic. Unfortunately when they break, they break $$$ hard.

I have been through my own share of issues in my short diesel ownership. But I'm confident, that once I get on top of the maintenance and undo all the neglect from the previous owner it will pay me back with those low running costs (the 3.0D is cheaper on the drink than both our 2007 C180 Kompressor and 2012 C300) and that strong torque surge.

Best thing for diesels is to just put the mileage on them. Give them a long run and stretch their legs regularly. Stops them from blocking up, plus, it's where they're happiest!

Picked up the X on Monday, replaced glow plug control module- insisted on keeping it overnight so the tech could verify it starts properly in the morning. Got there at 0900- was given the keys- it had not been started by anyone-so much for the tech oversight. Anyway, all is well until yesterday when the check engine light reappears on the way back home from a trip to Boston.

Dropped it off today to the service manager-just gave him the keys and said it appears you are throwing parts at it, I think you need to really figure it out on the 3rd try. He calls later today and says the code indicated the catalytic converter needed to be replaced. Said they had never seen that before, so they drained out all the DEF, checked the system for deposits and cleaned and refilled it with DEF. Adjusted the NOX sensors ( which had just been replaced on the first visit) drove it the required 30 minutes and now all is well. He said the master tech questioned the service history (or lack of it) as the car is never in their shop for service ( I change the oil, replace pads, bleed brakes etc.) Asked where I bought DEF to which I replied either Walmart or Autozone. I was then told that there is a difference between BMW DEF and other DEFs and it would appear that may be the cause of the problem. Went on to also state that DEF is not DEF, just like engine oil is not engine oil. Since I happen to be in the oil business, I can't help but agree about the comment regarding engine oil but stated they were grasping at straws regarding BMW's DEF being different or superior to other branded DEFs sold in retail outlets.

So the takeaway is, had I have used BMW DEF, I wouldn't have experienced the issues I am now seeing. Take note Walmart shoppers!

You are joking, right?

DEF is DEF- there is an international specification for DEF (AUS 32) that BMW and all others meet.

The owners manual lists this.

You are trapped in the parts replacement cycle with the DEF/SCR cats and test plan mess. There are a few threads on this....

+1
The sensors in the active and passive tank will sense if you put water or DEF that is substandart and will throw a specific code,not say "Replace cats".
I have some DEF (or SCR )related codes in my '12 X5D and they are very specific.

Pretty good that Ard can't tell if I'm joking...... Be assured that from this day on I will only use BMW DEF! It is truly superior. I hope it won't f up the Cayenne I think I may get. Perhaps I should have a discussion with the service manager at the Porsche store about the ( I'm sure) clear superiority of Porsche DEF over BMW DEF. Gee, do you think I might be able to use VW DEF in my Porsche?

To check the SCR system the 30 minute test drive is most likely needed to be done AFTER turning off DEF dosing.

This is to empty the SCR cat of NH3 so the NOx sensors - pre and post cat can be checked - no NH3 (DEF) - the NOx ppm readings should be very close to the same from both sensors.

If the pre cat sensor ppm is lower than the post cat - then most likely it is suspect, as it lives right behind the DFP and the high regeneration temps. This could cause efficiency faults, MIL on, and perhaps the no-start warning countdown IMO.

Got the car back and all is well for now. I've driven a few vehicles; took a Cayenne Diesel out and I was non plussed. I fully expected to be blown away by this car as the best SUV there is. It was not fully loaded so I decided to look for one with PASM which does not exist on the ground. Drove another one with a bit more equipment and a number of factors led me to the decision that a Cayenne is just not in my future. Purely subjective but for those that care:

Ignition switch on the left side- I know it's a Porsche thing but even with the equivalent of Comfort Access, you still have to turn a key! I suffered a compound fracture of my left elbow this summer and I still have a residual issue with full functionality and turning that key sucks for me.

Touch screen- why??. The SA said there is a work around with the little knobs under the (little) screen, but it didn't do it for me.

Tailgate- I use my vehicle as a work platform and the tailgate on an X5 is a unique feature I really use. I am in and out of the lift gate and left rear door several times during the day. Without the tailgate, your legs are rubbing against the bumper. Ergonomically it doesn't work for me.

Rear seat fold down- on the X70 it folds flat, on the Cayenne it's sloped. In 5 years, I've probably had the seat up a total of 10-20 days.

Handling- here is where I was really disappointed. The rear end did not feel planted. I pushed the car and didn't feel as confident as I do with the E70. Perhaps it's me but this was the biggest surprise considering everything I've read.

Powertrain- here is where I really struggled- paying the Porsche price (along with the never ending menu of options) for the exact same engine/ transmission and (effectively) drive system as a Toureg or Q7 just doesn't excite me. For Porsche money, I want a special diesel!

Porsche sales pricing. In one instance an SA called me to tell me he has an alternate approach. I can order exactly what I want for the one allocation he has for delivery in April. When I asked him for the short story on what type of percentage discount he would grant, he said Porsche moves only 40,000 vehicles a year and consequently his standard practice is to grant a $2,000 discount off list. Well, I decided then and there I wasn't a new Porsche purchaser.

So, back to BMW. I took a 5.0 out for a drive merely because it had the Dynamic Handling Package I wanted to experience. Well Holy V8 and DHP, man did I like that truck. With a sticker of $91K I should like it!. Alas, the power would get me locked up, I'd be at the fueling station every other day which would affect my productivity, costing me thousands of dollars in lost business not to mention draining my fuel funds as I spiral downward after taking a severe loss in being forced to sell it after just 6 months. So no 5.0 for me, but DHP=WOW, I want it. I then drive a 3.5 with M Sport and Adaptive M Suspension. I was impressed with that combination and I actually liked the power of the 3.5. It's not a diesel though and a bit more research suggests that my real world mileage could be in the 20 mpg range. (I hope someone responds with real world mileage) At 25,000 miles a year, that gets old, hence my original decision to buy the E70d.

And now, I think I may have come full circle. I can't seem to find anything that gets me excited ( enough to spend all this freaking money again) like an X5 diesel. The torque is exhilarating, the mileage spectacular, the range unmatched. So I believe I may order my 3rd X5. I hope that this version of the diesel is superior ( which it definitely is with regard to smoothness and efficiency) and coupled to the 8 speed, it provides an unbeatable combination. Oh, and it appears so far that on the 2 cars I drove, the price offered ( after a bit of discussion) was a bit over 7% off MSRP. RFQ's on 2 built cars for ordering were at just about 5% off MSRP which I believe can be bettered. Looks like I may order an F15 diesel with DHP and a bunch of other options.

^^^ Very informative review... :thumbup:
I enjoy your posts.
GL, mD

A man at a gas station couldn't tae his eyes off the tail gate. First he had to ask
what kind of vehicle it was, then he say's "I've never seen a vehicle like this
what a tail gate like that. Then he asked what year it was and he was clearly
surprised. Of course it was right after a wash job. But I agree the tailgate is an asset. for sure.

I agree with MD good review.:thumbup:

DHP the new term for Adaptive Drive, yes? Nice analysis and good choice.

When I evaluated the Cayenne, I just couldnt shake the feeling that I was being played for a chump. Harsh words, but it just felt like 'the biggest feature of this car is letting people know you can afford this car'. For the $ the features and performance wasnt there.

You've got a world of options to find a dealer willing to deal- Sponsors, PCDs, days' drive, etc. Line up your incentives and go for it! or... plan on a 2016 in October. Just 20k miles down the road:dunno: Feeling lucky?

Enjoy reading the comments and want to share my own experience as well. I just traded in 2010 X35d with 143k miles. The X5 had been great to me with exceptions of few emission related issues (EGR coolant, DEF tank, metering unit) The dealer was great and even took care of some of the expensive repair under warranty beyond the warranty period (replaced the DEF tank sensor and pump around 100k) Although the car still drive great, one of the main decision was the up coming repair quoted by dealer when car went in for 135k service. I was quote almost $7k of repair for DPF (diesel particular filter) and battery change out. I am also coming up on the front brake and rear brake (on my 2nd set on both). Need new tires and drive belts are still original.
BMW dealer appraised my car at $12k, so didn't seem logical to spend more then the vehicle to keep the car going. I was told by an indy shop that I should budget for transmission rebuilt or replacement as well.
Last minute decision and had purchase a new car before end of the year, so my option was kind of limited. My list was short - Another X5 35D, X5 35i, GL450, or GL350 BlueTech. Went to test drive all and had decided on X5 35i since I don't drive as much any more (went from 120 miles commute/day to 30 miles /day)
I couldn't find one with color and options combination on the dealer lots beside the BMW dealer was only giving me $12k for my X5.
On the last day of the year, found a 2013 GL Bluetech at local auto wholesale place where I had PermaFinish done on our company vans. The GL has all the options I was looking for with low mileage. The car was in almost perfect brand new condition. The dealer gave me $15500 for my X5, so I went with the trade.
My plan was to drive the GL for a while, if I don't like it, I can order a X5 and trade it in.
Now I had the GL for few days.. It started to grow on me a little. GL doesn't handle like X5, the navigation interface and iDrive on the BMW is way better than the MB, but the GL is more luxurious and feels more compliant. I do use 3rd row some times so GL 3rd row is more functional.
If anyone interested, I will report back again once I have the GL for few more months.

Chao.