climate control , a/c

[bcredliner]

Never said that your experience is not factual. Only said it is anecdotal and cannot be universally accepted.

Pile on--there's that--I'm the victim complex.

You've seen other posts verifying your experience---in my view, because of the importance of a properly working aux fan, they should have also replaced the fan ASAP.

Why should I replace a $450 fan so it can fail again-- I have over 114,000 miles on the original aux fan that has been activated far more than yours ever will be.

Less critical is still critical.

The point of posting the video link was to show that performance is effected with an explanation of how the DISA works. Along with lost performance is reduced mileage. Here is another source of verification: BMW E60 5-Series DISA Valve Replacement (M54 6 Cylinder) - Pelican Parts Technical Article

My posts aren't to convince you of anything---that would follow the definition of insanity. My posts are for those that might take you seriously.

Case in point--a 10hp attic fan of any size to endorse your point is at best funny. If you had done a little research you would find years and years of the proven benefits of an electric fan over a clutch fan.

I did't say you can't loosen the clutch fan nut with a wrench, a screwdriver and a hammer. I said some do and for some it does not work. Plus, I don't use that method because there is a risk of damaging the water pump. I also provided a link to a $10 best practice tool set. Based on the cost of a water verses a $10 tool to eliminate that risk I think it is extremely poor advice to recommend otherwise.

My electric puller fan did not blow up. The fan is fine. The controller fried. I replaced it with the same one. I had recently adjusted the controller to the summer setting. I'm guessing that had something to do with it. Bragging--if that was the case, I wouldn't have posted the controller failure. And I never even implied clutch fans are inferior as far as quality. My electric fan cools better than my clutch fan did and does not use horsepower to turn it. Based on my particular application it has benefits that I deem important.

Originally Posted by trader4

Figures that you'd pile on, join in and expand the attacks into new
areas. Overheating? Who should I believe, you or my own eyes?
I've driven the X5 here in the environment I use it in and I've
never had the temp gauge go above normal. NEVER. I've seen
other folks report the same thing.

"New Jersey is cold country so the auxiliary fan is less critical than an area that is consistently hot in the summer. "

Wow, you figured that out? I suppose I should replace that $450
fan so it can fail again just in case the car somehow winds up in
Phoenix just to make you and upallnight happy.

Watched your video link. It's pretty much OK, except he claims
that the DISA improves low and high end performance. I recall
Bentley saying it increased mid-range performance. He's wrong
about the gasket not being replaceable separately. I have one
on the car, they are available from a variety of sources.

Since you want to drag your electric fan conversion into it,
I never said it would not work in place of the mechanical fan.
I said that I think your claim of it being a miracle 5 or 10hp
boost in available power is nuts and I showed you what a
10hp fan actually looks like. It wasn't a typical attic fan,
it was a whopping huge one like 5 ft in diameter.
You may think I'm an idiot, but at least I can easily get the
X5 fan off with a good old 1 1/4" wrench, how about that
for mechanical skills?

I see your less than a year old electric fan conversion recently
blew up, so IDK why about this you're bragging. My stock, original mechanical fan is still running fine.

[bcredliner]

Originally Posted by trader4

I never said anyone needs to accept my experience as universally
applicable. Do I need to add that as a disclaimer now to every post?
The video claims DISA is there for performance at the low and high end.
Bentley says it's to improve mid-range performance. All I can tell
you is that I couldn't see any *noticeable* difference in performance
with the DISA operational or not. I've seen others here post the same
thing. Your mileage claim is a new one and IDK what you're basing
that on. I did not see any difference in mileage. And I don't see
the harm in others hearing that. IMO, the DISA is like an appendix,
a wee little refinement that gives some minimal benefit that typical
drivers will never see. They will however see all the repair bills
associated with the added complexity. Others here have reported
exactly the same thing, why don't you start correcting them?

The 10hp fan is indeed pretty funny. It takes a whopping big fan moving
a whole lot of air to consume 10hp. It's the power of a lawn tractor.
If you want to believe that little mechanical X5 fan is using all that
power, be my guest. It would for sure make BMW pretty stupid.
I mean they are doing anything and everything, desperate to get
even a tiny boost in MPG for decades, yet they used a mechanical
fan that sucks up 10hp, about 20% of what the vehicle uses on
the highway. Go figure.

Removing the fan, you do it your way, I'll do it mine. You think a
water pump is fragile and it's going to be easily damaged. Can you
point us to one person here who damaged the WP removing the fan?
Lots of people are just using the 1 1/4" wrench and hammer, where
are all the failures? Others can judge for themselves. And I've said
many times, your car, your dollars, your choice.

Electric fan didn't blow up, just the controller, not much difference
IMO. It didn't last a year, my mechanical fan is original. And it's
news to me that the stock cooling system in the BMW is inadequate.
Maybe you should take that up with and explain it to BMW. They
are supposed to build the ultimate driving machine, yet they
produced millions of vehicles with inadequate engine cooling so
that you need to remove the stock fan?

I've been giving you some slack since english is obviously your second language.

To your posts, yes, you should add a disclaimer--- Please note that my comments should not be taken seriously.

I can't see lost performance said the closed mind blind man.
It doesn't matter what source for verification we use. Don't use what I referenced. Use the Bentley manual stating there is lost performance which you claim is not the case. You are not agreeing with your own source of reference and have no awareness that is the case.

You don't know why I mentioned reduced mileage but then you say if an electric fan freed up any horsepower BMW would be using them to increase mileage. Doesn't seem you understand yourself. Have you noticed in many newer vehicles including BMWs the mechanical fan has been eliminated?

Never said, even implied, the cooling system is inadequate. I said in my application the electric puller fan has benefits I deem important.

Your opinion the controller is the same as a fan failure is ludicrous. The controller I am using could be an ongoing failure but there are many other controllers out there or I can eliminate the controller as the thermostat. The overall electric fan benefits are exceeding my expectations. The controller failure is a small bump in the road.

I'm not going to address your attic fan or a lawn tractor blade bs. If readers know the earth isn't flat they know that means nothing more than you know attic fans and lawn tractors exist.

I agree that there are those that hit the wrench with a hammer--have at it. My point is there is no logic to take the risk of damaging the water pump. I stand corrected the Bentley manual, states to put an inch and a quarter wrench on the nut and whack the hell out of it with a big hammer. I also spoke with several of the current ebay sources that sell the tool for $10-20. You are again correct, they keep offering it even though they've collectively only sold 7 in last 10+ years they have been making them.

[bcredliner]

Originally Posted by trader4

Again, read what I actually wrote. I said that Bentley says the DISA
is there to increase mid-range performance. I said that I don't notice
any difference in performance. The two are not inconsistent. It could
boost performance by a small amount. That is enough to boost
some claimed specs and obviously would impress someone like you,
but it's not noticeable to me in everyday driving. And as I've said,
others here have also said they don't see any difference in performance
either, so why don't you jump on them too? Have you even
tried driving the X5 with the DISA disconnected? What is the
source for your claim that the DISA affects mileage?

Reduced mileage due to an inoperative DISA is what *you*
claimed. First time I've ever heard that and knowing what the
DISA does, it seems unlikely. It seems more likely that a non-working
DISA could actually increase gas mileage. DISA operates by tuning the
intake so you can cram a little more fuel/air mix into the engine.
It decrease the resistance to airflow in the intake.
From what I see, no reason to believe that translates into
increased mileage, just increased performance because you
get more fuel/air in there. More in, you're still having to put extra
gas in to get that performance.

"Your opinion the controller is the same as a fan failure is ludicrous."

You put in a new electric fan system. Whether the fan or the controller
fried in under a year is largely irrelevant. The system still failed.
My stock mechanical fan is still going fine at 160K.


"I'm not going to address your attic fan or a lawn tractor blade bs. If readers know the earth isn't flat they know that means nothing more than you know attic fans and lawn tractors exist."

You just did address it. What you mean is you can't explain how
that small mechanical X5 fan could possibly consume 10hp. That's
why what a real 10hp fan looks like is relevant. It has a fan blade
that is 5 ft in diameter and it moves 66,000 cfm. And again, it's
not an attic fan. For anyone interested, here it is:

DAYTON Med Duty Fan,66,186 cfm,208-230/460V - Belt Drive Exhaust Fans w/Drive Package - 7M872|7M872 - Grainger Industrial Supply

Now *that* is a 10hp fan.

The BMW mechanical fan isn't that. It's not even a home central
air AC condenser fan size. Those are 1/4 to 1/3 hp, drive a
fan blade many 3x the size of the x5 fan and they move
a whole lot of air. So I say physics
says your hp savings are an order of magnitude less than 10hp.
The other thing that makes no sense is that if that fan were
using anywhere near 10hp, then it would be using ~20%
of the hp that the X5 takes cruising down the highway.

Just the facts.

Would you please put me on the list of those you ignore?

The point of challenging you on the importance of the DISA valve is your claim that replacing the DISA valve is not important and that you know what you are talking about. When any member pulls something like that out of their a#$ or uses only their personal conclusions to even imply that is a universal truth it is time to call them out.

Even if I were to accept that engine performance does not decrease, that should not be used to state replacing the DISA valve is not important. If for no other reason than the pin that goes through the flap can come loose and get into the engine the valve should be replaced as soon as it begins to malfunction.

To a significant level the longevity of the fan or the controller is not important to me. The reason it is not is that my expectations for the benefits of the electric fan have been exceeded and I choose to have those benefits continue. The controller cost is $65. I am fine with that.

My guess is you wouldn't know Physics from the back end of a donkey. Accepting you do, I will endorse your claim of what I view as a fantasy even in la la land if you provide the equation proving your claim. That said, your attic fan and lawn tractor comparison is pure nonsense. It doesn't take 10 horsepower to turn an attic fan. The reason they use a that much power is so the motor doesn't have to work hard to turn the blade and so it will last 10+ years. It does not take 10 hp to turn a lawn tractor blade. It is also so the engine will last 5+ years, cut tall grass with a 250 pound driver. We are talking about freed up horsepower by removing a mechanical fan. Hopefully you can understand this. Simply said for you, The horsepower of an engine increases if it doesn't have to turn a mechanical fan therefore it is beneficial to replace the mechanical fan with an electric fan.

I don't have an equation. I have years of experience with replacing both direct drive and clutch fans with electric fans, even flex fans, that all improved performance and were more efficient than what I removed. That is also endorsed by hundreds of thousands of racers that did and still do the same thing.

The reason why mileage will decrease is that it will take more go pedal to reach and maintain the same speed if the DISA valve is malfunctioning. Less go pedal mean less fuel used.

[StephenVA]

Guys let it go......
If someone approaches a problem with our 10+ year old vehicles with a ROI in mind, the financial return only shows that quick fixes, ignore, band aid repairs, etc. with no thought to longevity would be a rational approach.

I personally like everything to function as designed or to improve it to 2015 technology on my BMWs. Everyone gets to choose as owners. Trust me the coat hanger solutions will be ever more common as these SAVs to onwards to 15 years. The scrap yards will be full of them as repairs will exceed retail value. The Dallas Car Sharks types will be buying X5s for $1500 and butchering them to flip them

[bcredliner]

Originally Posted by trader4

My driving for a year without an operating DISA with no noticeable
difference in performance, the car running perfectly, is my evidence
that the DISA isn't a critical item. So is Bentley's description of what
it does. That plus my understanding of the principles involved, how
it works, leads me to believe it's non-essential. So, I just stated that
for anyone that's interested. Others have also reported that whether
the DISA was operating or not, they didn't notice any difference.
Have *you* driven you car with it operating, non-operating? IF not
how would you even know?


"The reason why mileage will decrease is that it will take more go pedal to reach and maintain the same speed if the DISA valve is malfunctioning. Less go pedal mean less fuel used"

Again, pulled from thin air without regard to how the DISA operates.
You're making the fundamental mistake that increased performance
means increased performance for free. The DISA tunes the intake
so that you can cram more air and fuel into it. The air is free, the
fuel is not. Just physics.


"should not be used to state replacing the DISA valve is not important. If for no other reason than the pin that goes through the flap can come loose and get into the engine the valve should be replaced as soon as it begins to malfunction. "

Yes, a loose pin is one common malfunction, but there are others.
I assume that people here have some common sense. If you're
DISA is rattling away and has a loose pin it would be pretty dumb
to drive it that way. I never said to do that. I said that with it
not operating I saw no difference in performance. How that gets
translated into driving around with a loose pin, IDK.



"To a significant level the longevity of the fan or the controller is not important to me. "

Your car, your money, your choice. One year after all that work,
doesn't sound so good to me. My stock fan is working fine at 160K miles.

"My guess is you wouldn't know Physics from the back end of a donkey. Accepting you do, I will endorse your claim of what I view as a fantasy even in la la land if you provide the equation proving your claim. That said, your attic fan and lawn tractor comparison is pure nonsense. It doesn't take 10 horsepower to turn an attic fan. The reason they use a that much power is so the motor doesn't have to work hard to turn the blade and so it will last 10+ years."

Now it's very interesting that you claim I don't understand physics
when you just showed everyone here that it's actually *you* who
doesn't understand physics. First, one more time, that fan link I gave
you for a 10hp fan is not an "attic fan". Did you even look at it?
Good grief. A typical attic fan is a small fractional hp motor.
Here is a typical one, it has a 14" fan, moves 1600 cfm and costs $100:

Broan 1600 CFM Power Gable Mount Attic Ventilator-35316 - The Home Depot


That huge *10 hp industrial fan* I showed you is for moving air in a huge
warehouse or similar application. It has a 5 ft fan, moves 66,000 cfm
and costs $4700:

DAYTON Med Duty Fan,66,186 cfm,208-230/460V - Belt Drive Exhaust Fans w/Drive Package - 7M872|7M872 - Grainger Industrial Supply



And now as to the physics, the hp required to move a given amount of air
depends on the volume of air moved, the pressure across the fan, etc.
They size the motor to the fan. No one puts a grossly oversized
10hp fan in an attic fan to make it last longer, that is pure BS that
you just made up. OK, so now let's do some basic physics. The
10hp industrial fan moves 66,000 CFM, the Broan attic fan moves 1,600
That a factor of 41 difference. Take the 10hp and divide it by 41 and
what do you have? 1/4 hp and that's exactly what that attic fan has,
a small fractional hp motor. That's physics for you. The motor power
required is sized to the load. Now answer the simple question,
what size and capacity fan is the X5 closer to? The attic fan or
the 10hp industrial fan?

"It does not take 10 hp to turn a lawn tractor blade."

I never said it did. I only used that as a simple reference to show
what 10hp can really do. Are you going to tell us that X5 stock
fan needs the same amount of power as a lawn tractor mowing
grass?

I won't put you on the list of people to ignore. That's the choice
of the ignorant who are afraid of free speech.

No I have not operated my X5 with a bad DISA One reason is it doesn't have one. I would have the sense to bow to the experts and replace the valve and advise anyone asking accordingly. You use the Bentley manual information as your credible source for your understanding of how the DISA valve works. I assume it also says, we don't have any idea why we put that valve in there so if you want to save some money don't bother replacing it. If you don't believe us just ask Trader 4. He's saving a ton of money much more than the cost to repair the engine.

https://www.germanautosolutions.com/...repair_kit.php


Mechanical vs. Electric Fans: Which is Best for Your Vehicle? - OnAllCylinders

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8_JT0ezqGw

Electric Fan 4-1-1: Everything You Need to Know About Electric Fans - OnAllCylinders

The horsepower gained is not mentioned because it varies by application. I spoke with Flex-a-lite tech center prior to my install. The estimate for my application was 4-10hp. with the fan running and without consideration if the stock pusher fan was running or not.

On a dragstrip---After the race set the fan to run all the time to cool the engine down to the starting temp of the first race. On the street-- set the fan to come on just before the aux fan. At an idle it runs less than 30 seconds when it is 90+ degrees F. That means on the strip or street neither the pusher or puller fan are running most of the time as long as the air conditioning is off.

This is no longer funny or entertaining. It's like hearing the same joke over and over. I challenge members that draw conclusions from a sample of one and suggest others should do as they have done. It may be a shortcoming but I think it important for those that are just getting started at DIY stuff to not let such posts go unaddressed.

[upallnight]

[bcredliner]

Originally Posted by upallnight

No butter and not much salt please

[Quicksilver]

I have a simple answer to this issue. Why not take to vehicle to the dealer
or a reputable indy and get the system in question tested. Then decide what the
next course of action should be. If you don't have to money to fix it, save up then
get it done in the future. Either way arguing with others doesn't solve the problem
but getting it fixed will.

[upallnight]

Should have listen to another forum member when he PM this:

trader4
please add him to your ignore list for his posts, he only gets off on having stupid arguments with us on the boards.

You just been added to my ignore list.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q73gUUr8Zlw

[upallnight]

To the original poster that started this thread, here's a post about the same problem and the solution.

http://www.xoutpost.com/934481-post52.html